Author Topic: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament  (Read 38547 times)

Offline wellred82

  • Now considers himself properly educated around the significance of his birthday.....
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #400 on: March 23, 2017, 07:40:47 pm »
Wanna bet?

Look. He drove a car into people and was also armed with a knife. Both those methods have been advocated by ISIS and Al Qaida in the past so why is hard for folks to believe he was a terrorist? Because he didn't make a video before hand ending in allah Akbar?

This is the new style of terrorist attack. It happened in Germany and France only on a bigger scale.


[You may have an iPhone but you are still using the free version of Tapatalk and spamming us with that knowledge]

Offline The North Bank

  • Can even make the sun shine in Manchester - once in a blue moon...
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,554
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #401 on: March 23, 2017, 07:42:51 pm »
I think his intention is to be a terrorist. That's why he came down to Westminster to do it. He probably hasn't always been a jihadi wanting to die for the cause, judging by his age and background. Seems like someone who wanted to achieve notoriety by getting the sort of attention he never could in his pathetic life. To the victims it matters not his motives, or how he's labeled, they're still dead.
It probably is better to brand him a murderer, rather than link him to a greater anti western organisation, then other attention seeking low life's may think this is their calling. Isis of course are happy to claim responsibility, and they did so, but they never mentioned his name, because they probably didn't know it.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,380
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #402 on: March 23, 2017, 07:58:18 pm »
I think his intention is to be a terrorist. That's why he came down to Westminster to do it. He probably hasn't always been a jihadi wanting to die for the cause, judging by his age and background. Seems like someone who wanted to achieve notoriety by getting the sort of attention he never could in his pathetic life. To the victims it matters not his motives, or how he's labeled, they're still dead.
It probably is better to brand him a murderer, rather than link him to a greater anti western organisation, then other attention seeking low life's may think this is their calling. Isis of course are happy to claim responsibility, and they did so, but they never mentioned his name, because they probably didn't know it.

Radicalising people at a distance and encouraging them to use vehicles and any weapons they can find is a declared ISIS tactic. If there were more of these attacks this year and they are all just put down as simple murders then how do you begin to come up with a strategy to deal with the tactic. 

It's not as if people around the country would see a similar attack with a car ploughing into pedestrians and then a knife or gun attack and think - "oh, it's ok, it's just another one of those looks like a terrorist attack but actually it's just a murder events..."

And I don't think someone who's susceptible to radicalisation is going to be getting their information from the BBC.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 08:00:31 pm by Alan_X »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline zebenzui

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,923
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #403 on: March 23, 2017, 08:25:44 pm »
Just googled a definition of 'terrorism', emphasis mine:

Quote
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Method is irrelevant, it's not terrorism if the killer was not trying to cow the populace into submitting to his political agenda.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 08:27:20 pm by zebenzui »

Offline The North Bank

  • Can even make the sun shine in Manchester - once in a blue moon...
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,554
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #404 on: March 23, 2017, 09:08:29 pm »
Radicalising people at a distance and encouraging them to use vehicles and any weapons they can find is a declared ISIS tactic. If there were more of these attacks this year and they are all just put down as simple murders then how do you begin to come up with a strategy to deal with the tactic. 

It's not as if people around the country would see a similar attack with a car ploughing into pedestrians and then a knife or gun attack and think - "oh, it's ok, it's just another one of those looks like a terrorist attack but actually it's just a murder events..."

And I don't think someone who's susceptible to radicalisation is going to be getting their information from the BBC.

Well this is at least the third such event in a year, all supposedly inspired by Isis, and if another one was to happen tomorrow, the simple fact is we can not do anything to stop it, beyond categorizing it into statistics that may help in a report or analysis. We cant stop such acts, driving cars into pedestrians, but if we do have a way of stopping it, I hope that this way would still be implemented if the culprits were categorized as murderers and not just as terrorists, anything that causes danger to the public should be stopped.

Offline Trada

  • Fully paid up member of the JC cult. Ex-Tory boy. Corbyn's Chief Hagiographer. Sometimes hasn't got a kloop.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,812
  • Trada
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #405 on: March 23, 2017, 09:23:21 pm »
 R.I.P

The Associated Press‏Verified account @AP 19s19 seconds ago

BREAKING: London police: 75-year-old victim of Wednesday's Westminster Bridge attack in London has died.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

“I carry them with me: what they would have thought and said and done. Make them a part of who I am. So even though they’re gone from the world they’re never gone from me.

Online Wabaloolah

  • Rocks to the East, Rocks to the West. Definitely Unscotch.
  • Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,671
  • Allez Allez Allez
    • My Twitter Account
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #406 on: March 23, 2017, 09:56:20 pm »
R.I.P

The Associated Press‏Verified account @AP 19s19 seconds ago

BREAKING: London police: 75-year-old victim of Wednesday's Westminster Bridge attack in London has died.

i have a feeling they won't be the last, still many in critical condition.
However if something serious happens to them I will eat my own cock.


If anyone is going to put a few fingers deep into my arse it's going to be me.

Offline jillcwhomever

  • Finding Brian hard to swallow. Definitely not Paula Nancy MIllstone Jennings of 37 Wasp Villas, Greenbridge, Essex, GB10 1LL. Or maybe. Who knows.....Finds it hard to choose between Jürgen's wurst and Fat Sam's sausage.
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 77,727
  • "I'm surprised they didn't charge me rent"
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #407 on: March 23, 2017, 10:11:07 pm »
So sad, condolences to the family and friends of all the victims, and fingers crossed that some of those hurt, recover shortly.
"He's trying to get right away from football. I believe he went to Everton"

Offline Kenny's Jacket

  • Kenny's Vegan Jacket Potato. Talks more sense than me.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,633
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #408 on: March 23, 2017, 10:52:09 pm »
Just googled a definition of 'terrorism', emphasis mine:

Method is irrelevant, it's not terrorism if the killer was not trying to cow the populace into submitting to his political agenda.

The attack happened on the anniversary of the Belgium attacks
The attacker was a Brummie who travelled to the Houses of Parliament to commit his act
The attacker copied previous MO of other Muslim murderers/terrorists.

The above is circumstantial but if he was just a guy having a bad day
Why travel to Westminster to do it?
Why copy previous "Muslim murderers" MO
Was the date just a coincidence?
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline alonsoisared

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,669
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #409 on: March 23, 2017, 11:23:28 pm »
Arguing over the terminology of whether hes a terrorist, a murderer, a nutjob, someone who just had their benefits sanctioned (christ alive) etc is pointless really, it doesnt matter what you call him. The fact is that we clearly have a problem whereby people are being radicalised and committing these awful acts in the name of islam. So we are faced with 2 options; either we acknowledge something is going wrong, try to tackle this process and attempt to solve the problem, or alternatively every time it happens we could just trip over ourselves to say it was merely some lone wolf psycho, it deffo had nothing to do with islam and then sit and wait for the next attack.

I hate people using these horrors to push right wing agendas but equally the mentality of immediately decrying "this has nothing to do with islam" in the aftermath of these events does no good either. There is a problem and we all need to face it maturely. It comes to something when someones first thought after what happened yesterday was "i hope the perpetrator was white".

Offline SheikhMo

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 588
  • YNWA
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #410 on: March 23, 2017, 11:23:51 pm »
"If you're struggling in a game you can either do two things, send your centre back (Robert Huth) up front as a centre forward or use Luis Garcia between the lines." - Rafa Benitez

Offline Kenny's Jacket

  • Kenny's Vegan Jacket Potato. Talks more sense than me.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,633
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #411 on: March 23, 2017, 11:29:59 pm »
This guys got it spot on: https://www.facebook.com/bbcnewsnight/videos/10154394181306200/

Its interesting.  I believe police use similar methods with serial killers who crave infamy. Deny it and the killing becomes less sexy.

I do wonder about hate preachers.  Would the likes of Anjem Choudary actually want the West to end interventionism in the Middle East? 
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,902
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #412 on: March 24, 2017, 12:00:50 am »
Its interesting.  I believe police use similar methods with serial killers who crave infamy. Deny it and the killing becomes less sexy.

I do wonder about hate preachers.  Would the likes of Anjem Choudary actually want the West to end interventionism in the Middle East? 

Intervention in the Middle East doesn't help the situation, but the likes of Anjem Choudary have been around long before the invasion of Iraq for example. Their version of Islam is based on world domination and a global Caliphate, where everyone is Muslim and observes their version of Islam, so disengagement or non-intervention in itself won't stop them.
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline zebenzui

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,923
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #413 on: March 24, 2017, 12:08:13 am »
The attack happened on the anniversary of the Belgium attacks
The attacker was a Brummie who travelled to the Houses of Parliament to commit his act
The attacker copied previous MO of other Muslim murderers/terrorists.

The above is circumstantial but if he was just a guy having a bad day
Why travel to Westminster to do it?
Why copy previous "Muslim murderers" MO
Was the date just a coincidence?

What was his agenda?

Terrorism is committing atrocities on a populace, and threatening said populace with similiar atrocities until demands and conditions are met. What was this attack for?

Online oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,445
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #414 on: March 24, 2017, 12:17:14 am »
Its interesting.  I believe police use similar methods with serial killers who crave infamy. Deny it and the killing becomes less sexy.

I do wonder about hate preachers.  Would the likes of Anjem Choudary actually want the West to end interventionism in the Middle East?
Yeah, Sexing it up is a good way of putting it, in this case, dont glamorize their actions by calling it an act of terrorism.
We all know this comes under the Terrorist definition but this is not all about this nutter it's also about finding anyway of deterring another bitter attacker with the morbid desire to be remembered as a warrior of ISIS.  it's about finding anyway to take away their glorious sacrifice and reducing it to what it is, the act of a horrible nasty bas,,
If they have a history of being violent then destroy their character.
You wont stop these people doing one thing,you have to fight them in as many ways as possible.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 12:18:47 am by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline BeautifulGame91

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,733
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #415 on: March 24, 2017, 02:02:13 am »


Its interesting.  I believe police use similar methods with serial killers who crave infamy. Deny it and the killing becomes less sexy.

I do wonder about hate preachers.  Would the likes of Anjem Choudary actually want the West to end interventionism in the Middle East?

Difference is serial killers crave infamy on this life.These terrorists do it because they crave something in after life .Most of these nutjobs think carrying out these attacks is a sense of duty to their religion .Doubt they care how it is reported in the press after they have died.
.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

  • Kenny's Vegan Jacket Potato. Talks more sense than me.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,633
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #416 on: March 24, 2017, 02:31:44 am »
What was his agenda?

Terrorism is committing atrocities on a populace, and threatening said populace with similiar atrocities until demands and conditions are met. What was this attack for?

Its agood question, I obviously dont have the answer.  Perhaps a caliphate or revenge for Irag/Afghanistan/Syria.  However if he was a runof the mill murderer he would have stayed in Birmingham. Most premeditated murder is committed on familiar ground.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,380
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #417 on: March 24, 2017, 05:10:46 am »
What was his agenda?

Terrorism is committing atrocities on a populace, and threatening said populace with similiar atrocities until demands and conditions are met. What was this attack for?

Are you serious?

An Islamic State spokesman has urged sympathizers in Europe and the US to launch attacks on civilians there if they are unable to travel to the group’s self-declared caliphate in Syria and Iraq.

In a 31-minute audio message released late on Saturday by the Isis media arm al-Furqan, Abu Mohammed al-Adnani told his followers: “The tiniest action you do in the heart of their land is dearer to us than the biggest action by us … There are no innocents in the heart of the lands of the crusaders.”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/22/isis-leader-civilian-lone-wolf-attacks-us-europe

Are you saying ISIS and Al-Qaeda attacks in general aren't terrorism? They don't make specific demands - they just want to terrorise and kill 'crusaders'.

The political aim is to terrorise for terror's sake and to kill for killings sake. The attack on Westminster fits the declared aims of ISIS exactly.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,250
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #418 on: March 24, 2017, 06:48:49 am »
Adrian Elms...

Bloody immigrants eh?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Dr. Beaker

  • Veo, to his mates. Shares 50% of his DNA with a banana. Would dearly love to strangle Frankengoose. Lo! Be he not ye Messiah, verily be he a child of questionable conduct in the eyes of Ye Holy Border Guards.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,800
  • I... think I am, therefore...I....maybe.
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #419 on: March 24, 2017, 07:46:49 am »
Are you serious?

An Islamic State spokesman has urged sympathizers in Europe and the US to launch attacks on civilians there if they are unable to travel to the group’s self-declared caliphate in Syria and Iraq.

In a 31-minute audio message released late on Saturday by the Isis media arm al-Furqan, Abu Mohammed al-Adnani told his followers: “The tiniest action you do in the heart of their land is dearer to us than the biggest action by us … There are no innocents in the heart of the lands of the crusaders.”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/22/isis-leader-civilian-lone-wolf-attacks-us-europe

Are you saying ISIS and Al-Qaeda attacks in general aren't terrorism? They don't make specific demands - they just want to terrorise and kill 'crusaders'.

The political aim is to terrorise for terror's sake and to kill for killings sake. The attack on Westminster fits the declared aims of ISIS exactly.
I think you got a bit carried away with yourself in the first sentence of your last paragraph which seems at odds with the rest of your post.
NAKED BOOBERY

Rile-Me costed L. Nee-Naw "The Child" Torrence the first jack the hat-trick since Eon Rush vs Accursed Toffos, many moons passed. Nee-Naw he could have done a concreted his palace in the pantyhose off the LibPole Gods...was not was for the invented intervention of Rile-Me whistler.

Offline whiteboots

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #420 on: March 24, 2017, 08:14:29 am »
What was his agenda?

Terrorism is committing atrocities on a populace, and threatening said populace with similiar atrocities until demands and conditions are met. What was this attack for?

We can only speculate.

Radical Islam demands a global caliphate and death to non-believers. A symbolic strike at any iconic infidel  location kills a few non-believers and strikes fear far beyond, as well as exacerbating tension between the Muslim and non Muslim communities . One man and a rental car and a kitchen knife- not bad work from their point of view.

Offline zebenzui

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,923
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #421 on: March 24, 2017, 08:50:56 am »
Are you saying ISIS and Al-Qaeda attacks in general aren't terrorism? They don't make specific demands - they just want to terrorise and kill 'crusaders'.

The political aim is to terrorise for terror's sake and to kill for killings sake. The attack on Westminster fits the declared aims of ISIS exactly.

To what end are these attacks made? Are there demands we can meet to stop these attacks, for example withdrawal from Afghanistan? If there are no demands we can concede to in order to stop the attacks, then it's not terrorism. Because we're not being terrorised into anything, we're just being wantonly killed.

It's as if the IRA killed Brits just for the sake of it, and not even yielding NI would have stopped their violence. They wouldn't be terrorists then, because they are not pursuing a political agenda, they're just killing for the hell of it.

Edit: I don't think I expressed myself very well so I'll add more. If, on the eve of another of a long series if ETA bombing attack, the Spanish government announced that Basque would be given independence, or a referendum on independence, it could conceivably have halted the impending bombing attack. Because the goal the attackers were striving for has been met. That's terrorism.

What could Britain have reasonably (I use the term loosely) and conceivably yielded to prevent the Westminster attack. If the answer is nothing, it's not terrorism.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 09:00:33 am by zebenzui »

Offline zero zero

  • Karma's a bitch. Innit.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,533
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #422 on: March 24, 2017, 09:00:07 am »
To what end are these attacks made? Are there demands we can meet to stop these attacks, for example withdrawal from Afghanistan? If there are no demands we can concede to in order to stop the attacks, then it's not terrorism.
WLR already covered that:
Intervention in the Middle East doesn't help the situation, but the likes of Anjem Choudary have been around long before the invasion of Iraq for example. Their version of Islam is based on world domination and a global Caliphate, where everyone is Muslim and observes their version of Islam, so disengagement or non-intervention in itself won't stop them.
The rest of us must submit. Or die. Or lives as slaves, I s'pose. Just because their political end is totally unrealistic and unattainable doesn't stop acts of terrorism being committed for political reasons.

Offline whiteboots

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #423 on: March 24, 2017, 09:01:26 am »
To what end are these attacks made? Are there demands we can meet to stop these attacks, for example withdrawal from Afghanistan? If there are no demands we can concede to in order to stop the attacks, then it's not terrorism. Because we're not being terrorised into anything, we're just being wantonly killed.

To create a global caliphate, and death to non believers.

Offline zebenzui

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,923
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #424 on: March 24, 2017, 09:06:08 am »
WLR already covered that:The rest of us must submit. Or die. Or lives as slaves, I s'pose. Just because their political end is totally unrealistic and unattainable doesn't stop acts of terrorism being committed for political reasons.
To create a global caliphate, and death to non believers.

I'll concede the point there. They're bonkers if they genuinely believe they can convert a continent by driving cars into crowds though.

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #425 on: March 24, 2017, 09:16:32 am »
If indeed it is an extremist Islamic attack, then the only blame lies with the persons commiting or promulgating such an act.
If a woman kills a man who's been abusing her for years, then the only blame lies with her. After all, she did the killing. My point being that no progress is ever made by focusing on the final act and completely ignoring all context. Yes, great. It's the terrorists' fault. How does that bring us any closer whatsoever to peace? If anything that attitude has made the world a demonstrably more dangerous place.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #426 on: March 24, 2017, 09:19:16 am »
I'll concede the point there. They're bonkers if they genuinely believe they can convert a continent by driving cars into crowds though.
The idea is to foster fear and intolerance, to make life so unbearable for Muslims in the West that they have no choice but to either abandon Islam (thus making them legitimate targets) or to up sticks and move to the Islamic utopia of the Islamic State, where they will no longer be persecuted for their religion.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,380
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #427 on: March 24, 2017, 09:20:31 am »
To what end are these attacks made? Are there demands we can meet to stop these attacks, for example withdrawal from Afghanistan? If there are no demands we can concede to in order to stop the attacks, then it's not terrorism. Because we're not being terrorised into anything, we're just being wantonly killed.

It's as if the IRA killed Brits just for the sake of it, and not even yielding NI would have stopped their violence. They wouldn't be terrorists then, because they are not pursuing a political agenda, they're just killing for the hell of it.

Edit: I don't think I expressed myself very well so I'll add more. If, on the eve of another of a long series if ETA bombing attack, the Spanish government announced that Basque would be given independence, or a referendum on independence, it could conceivably have halted the impending bombing attack. Because the goal the attackers were striving for has been met. That's terrorism.

What could Britain have reasonably (I use the term loosely) and conceivably yielded to prevent the Westminster attack. If the answer is nothing, it's not terrorism.

That's my point. If this person wasn't a terrorist because your definition of terrorism requires a quid pro quo then 9/11, Charlie Hebdo, Bali, Brussels, 7/7, Madrid, Paris, Lee Rigby and so on are not terrorism.

And that's a valid argument to some extent but I don't hold with it. It is evidently terrorism. But it's religious terrorism not political terrorism. The absolutist religious nature of the attacks show that there is no compromise, there is no 'if you do 'X' we'll stop bombing' unless the 'X' is convert to Islam and cease anything that is considered 'Haram'. They aren't trying to convert everyone. They are not concerned with our souls - they are as happy for us to be dead as converts.

So I agree with you that it's not political terrorism. I understand your point perfectly well. It's religious terrorism and we have to understand that rather than try to define it in the terms of the IRA, ETA or even the PLO (although the Palestinians are Muslims, the PLO was essentially a political terrorist group with specific demands).
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,507
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #428 on: March 24, 2017, 09:23:26 am »
The idea is to foster fear and intolerance, to make life so unbearable for Muslims in the West that they have no choice but to either abandon Islam (thus making them legitimate targets) or to up sticks and move to the Islamic utopia of the Islamic State, where they will no longer be persecuted for their religion.

The irony of course being that no one persecutes Muslims on account of their religion more so than other Muslims

Offline The North Bank

  • Can even make the sun shine in Manchester - once in a blue moon...
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,554
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #429 on: March 24, 2017, 09:25:27 am »
If a woman kills a man who's been abusing her for years, then the only blame lies with her. After all, she did the killing. My point being that no progress is ever made by focusing on the final act and completely ignoring all context. Yes, great. It's the terrorists' fault. How does that bring us any closer whatsoever to peace? If anything that attitude has made the world a demonstrably more dangerous place.

That's definitely the wrong example, I don't think anyone was abusing this terrorist.
I also don't think that every Muslim the world over should be blamed whenever a terrorist does something. Violence still happens in northern Ireland and no one demands all Catholics or protestants to distance themselves. On one hand there is an agenda driven casual anti Muslim racism that wants to brandish all Muslims terrorists but hasn't yet built up the courage to do so, and on the other hand, there is an agenda driven anti establishment side that blames our government for all the ills in the world, including the actions of evil people.
I think its important to focus on the perpetrators, not on general agendas driven by personal preferences.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 09:27:35 am by The North Bank »

Offline Dr. Beaker

  • Veo, to his mates. Shares 50% of his DNA with a banana. Would dearly love to strangle Frankengoose. Lo! Be he not ye Messiah, verily be he a child of questionable conduct in the eyes of Ye Holy Border Guards.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,800
  • I... think I am, therefore...I....maybe.
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #430 on: March 24, 2017, 09:32:50 am »
The idea is to foster fear and intolerance, to make life so unbearable for Muslims in the West that they have no choice but to either abandon Islam (thus making them legitimate targets) or to up sticks and move to the Islamic utopia of the Islamic State, where they will no longer be persecuted for their religion.
I would have thought their main objective was to terrorise us so much that we pressurise our politicians into reversing their intervention policies, thus allowing the Caliphate to thrive.
NAKED BOOBERY

Rile-Me costed L. Nee-Naw "The Child" Torrence the first jack the hat-trick since Eon Rush vs Accursed Toffos, many moons passed. Nee-Naw he could have done a concreted his palace in the pantyhose off the LibPole Gods...was not was for the invented intervention of Rile-Me whistler.

Offline The North Bank

  • Can even make the sun shine in Manchester - once in a blue moon...
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,554
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #431 on: March 24, 2017, 09:33:33 am »
He is obviously a terrorist, just wonder if it would be a better tactic to call him a criminal and take away the coverage, there are people committing murders up and down the country on a daily basis, very little impact they make on wider society because they don't get the coverage. The whole aim of his attack is to spread fear. We all feel affected because its been the only news for the last 24 hours,could we deal with it better by starving them from publicity. It would surely cut off a lot of their appeal.

Offline zebenzui

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,923
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #432 on: March 24, 2017, 10:17:39 am »

A part of me hopes that hesbighesred is accurate in his assessment, and there isn't someone who genuinely believes the west will convert to Islam if just 12 more trucks are plowed into a crowd of pedestrians.

It's just such an abject form of terror (and I'll gladly concede that it is again) that I find it almost tragic that anyone believes they can achieve anything this way. Unless of course the west rises to the bait and irrationally turns on its Muslim minorities in response to these attacks.

Offline The North Bank

  • Can even make the sun shine in Manchester - once in a blue moon...
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,554
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #433 on: March 24, 2017, 10:27:10 am »
A part of me hopes that hesbighesred is accurate in his assessment, and there isn't someone who genuinely believes the west will convert to Islam if just 12 more trucks are plowed into a crowd of pedestrians.

It's just such an abject form of terror (and I'll gladly concede that it is again) that I find it almost tragic that anyone believes they can achieve anything this way. Unless of course the west rises to the bait and irrationally turns on its Muslim minorities in response to these attacks.

I think the aim behind the attacks is what the perpetrators see as pay back or revenge. Most join Isis in the warped idea of defending their "brothers and sisters" , the biggest recruiting tool for Isis isn't telling the impressionable ones let's take over the world and make it Islamic, its that your brothers and sisters are getting slaughtered in Palestine, Iraq , Syria,and other places, and if you are a true Muslim, your duty is to defend by going on the attack. Pipe dreams don't work as recruitment literature, they give them something that they feel they can back up with evidence.
We will never tackle the problem if we just take on the idea that we are good and they are evil and they want to suppress us. They feel exactly the same way, suppressed, oppressed, the west wants to ethnically cleanse them and wipe out their religion, and they are fighting back. Its ridiculous to assume that people will readily die, just to take over the world, giving their life in a fight for survival is a more convincing tool.
Education is paramount, those who are impressionable, and there's a lot of them, given the poverty and lack of education that they grow up in, need to see the world for what it is, not some monster trying to eradicate them. Obviously mass bombings and years of killing don't help.
As for home grown terrorists, they can fuck right off, had the same opportunities as the rest of us, just too cowardly to face life.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 10:33:57 am by The North Bank »

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #434 on: March 24, 2017, 10:29:09 am »
I would have thought their main objective was to terrorise us so much that we pressurise our politicians into reversing their intervention policies, thus allowing the Caliphate to thrive.
I would have thought that our interventionist policies are suiting them just fine, or have so far.

1) They want a religious war, to paint a picture of Islam Vs everyone else. They come from war, have grown up in war, it's what they thrive on.
2) Iraq, Lybia and Syria, as states, provided a measure of security, education, infrastructure and living standards for their people, while also being secular. Obviously the were/are all Muslim countries, but they were very determined not to allow a state based on religion, it's the removal of those stable regimes - no matter how distasteful they may have seemed - which not only created conditions for extremity to flourish (both in terms of people brought up in war and in terms of people working for ISIS just for money, in some places they're now pretty much the only game in town if you just want to feed your family) but also removed what had been a huge obstacle to pre-existing religious organisations.
3) Their propaganda is also all based around a notion of us Vs them. As is ours - both sides are feeding off each other to increase their domestic power. Ordinary people are the ones stuck in the middle.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline The North Bank

  • Can even make the sun shine in Manchester - once in a blue moon...
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,554
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #435 on: March 24, 2017, 10:33:06 am »
I would have thought that our interventionist policies are suiting them just fine, or have so far.

1) They want a religious war, to paint a picture of Islam Vs everyone else. They come from war, have grown up in war, it's what they thrive on.
2) Iraq, Lybia and Syria, as states, provided a measure of security, education, infrastructure and living standards for their people, while also being secular. Obviously the were/are all Muslim countries, but they were very determined not to allow a state based on religion, it's the removal of those stable regimes - no matter how distasteful they may have seemed - which not only created conditions for extremity to flourish (both in terms of people brought up in war and in terms of people working for ISIS just for money, in some places they're now pretty much the only game in town if you just want to feed your family) but also removed what had been a huge obstacle to pre-existing religious organisations.
3) Their propaganda is also all based around a notion of us Vs them. As is ours - both sides are feeding off each other to increase their domestic power. Ordinary people are the ones stuck in the middle.

The regimes had to go, just not be replaced by something far worse as was the case. The actions of Isis must not put Saddam Ghaddafi and Assad in a positive light, some of the worst butchers of history.

Online oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,445
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #436 on: March 24, 2017, 10:42:05 am »
Your dealing with a psychological condition so you have to use psychology to fight them. you have to use psychology to weaken the ISIS recruitment appeal on vulnerable people.
This is not all about religion. these people are deluded, they have been brainwashed, we saw a documentary last year following  a couple of them and listening to their views. they actually believe the ISIS flag will fly over 10 Downing st one day, this is not the mind of a rational person with a cause, it's the mind of someone with a serious psychological problem.
They are very disturbed people. they need to be exposed as anti social losers rather than Terrorists.


It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline whiteboots

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #437 on: March 24, 2017, 10:44:35 am »
They're bonkers if they genuinely believe they can convert a continent by driving cars into crowds though.
I think that the intention is that by committing barbaric acts against infidels ( who they are not bothered about anyway) conflict will erupt between Muslims and non-believers such that moderate Muslims will feel compelled to defend their faith resulting in a massive Holy War which IS believe they will win.


Offline whiteboots

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #438 on: March 24, 2017, 10:55:58 am »
If indeed it is an extremist Islamic attack, then the only blame lies with the persons commiting or promulgating such an act.

I am afraid that is a hopelessly naïve and inadequate response.

Clearly an individual is responsible for their own actions, but those who foster, ferment and advance ideology which promotes those actions are also to blame.

There will always be religious zealots. Some may choose to manipulate the weak, dispossessed and vulnerable on the "Bob Dylan" principle that when you have nothing- you have nothing to lose.

Within the Muslim community, as with any, there are shades of opinion. Challenging those who move from respectful, peaceful, disagreement to advocating violent slaughter is vital, as is tracking where monies raised goes.

I have a friend who works in a bank in Smethwick, Birmingham which banks for a major local mosque. They take around £1m a week, a significant amount in cash. Those monies are intended for good causes in Birmingham, nationally, and abroad, and are raised in good faith. managing what happens next is an enormous task.

Offline SP

  • Thor ain't got shit on this dude! Alpheus. SPoogle. The Equusfluminis Of RAWK. Straight in at the deep end with a tube of Vagisil. Needs to get a half-life. Needs a damned good de-frag.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 36,042
  • .
  • Super Title: Southern Pansy
Re: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament
« Reply #439 on: March 24, 2017, 11:02:31 am »
I would have thought their main objective was to terrorise us so much that we pressurise our politicians into reversing their intervention policies, thus allowing the Caliphate to thrive.

I suspect that a major aim is to strike at multiculturalism and drive a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims in the west. They want the rise of Frottage, Nutall et al. They want to make the case that Muslims cannot live in peace in the West.

I don't think they want the intervention to stop. It is their biggest marketing ploy. Without the aggressor, they lose a lot of their emotional edge to their recruitment. Without the threat of the western Satan, they become far more of an irrelevance.