Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[zebenzui]

Fair play to you mate. I've been poor, so I know how shite that is.

I know plenty others have it worse than me, at least my job gives me a relatively steady number of hours week to week. That said, I was a very close to being homeless just a few years ago having been out of work for months and months.

Some who go through that may well develop the views that seem sadly too prevalent today. Others do not. I think (out of horrible cynicism) the only thing that seperates the two groups is that people in the former group always held those views and misconceptions, and use their struggles to validate and indulge the prejudices that they enjoy having.

[Craig S]

But they were losing anyway. What did they have to lose?

It's extremely unlikely lower income salaries will increase. There will be no increase in benefits, tax credits etc, i think thats clear.

However, we are due inflation. We are already seeing sharp increases in home energy prices, as oil and gas is priced in dollars. Supermarkets are currently holding back price rises to consumers, and gradually phasing them in. They don't want to be the first to blink and be branded the anti brexit supermarket by the knuckle dragging daily mail readers. I work with one of the big supermarkets and have been told this, but i dont think it's much of a secret. Tesco has more resources to maintain this for longer, but is not indefinite.

So with no increases in income and an increase in costs, they are almost certainly going to lose. Unfortunately i think they will feel it more acutely than anyone else.

I think it was highly irresponsible of people like Martin Lewis to claim, you have nothing to lose. Clearly they do.

[zero zero]

I know that. But can we really blame those that voted Brexit in desperation to get anything..

I'd try to explain Andy, but this guy sums it up perfectly

I know that people get irritated when you call the UK voting population 'thick' - but after all these years of Austerity the Tories have finally admitted they had no intention of 'balancing the books' at all. They are doing other things now like building houses and the rest. Doesn't take a genius to see Austerity has damaged the economy and will lead to many years extra to get near to any kind of growth.

And yet. STILL. Even though the UK population can see this. They'll still vote for the Tories.

If that's not thick, then please can someone explain why not?

[12C]

Ukip calls for homeless or unemployed EU citizens to be deported after Brexit - The Independent
https://apple.news/AU3PyUKeJR7S3mpa_jZpuOA

How long before Fox and Davies put this to May and she  takes it up as a policy?
It's bad enough that the term "illegals" is now used to describe anyone who is not born here but now we are seriously hearing "send them back" starting to be discussed seriously.

[Red-Soldier]

I'd try to explain Andy, but this guy sums it up perfectly

Yep, he's pretty bang on there.

[paulrazor]

what do people will think will happen the rate of sterling?

if i google then its pretty much 50-50 with people saying itll go weaker or stronger against the euro

[Red-Soldier]

It's extremely unlikely lower income salaries will increase. There will be no increase in benefits, tax credits etc, i think thats clear.

However, we are due inflation. We are already seeing sharp increases in home energy prices, as oil and gas is priced in dollars. Supermarkets are currently holding back price rises to consumers, and gradually phasing them in. They don't want to be the first to blink and be branded the anti brexit supermarket by the knuckle dragging daily mail readers. I work with one of the big supermarkets and have been told this, but i dont think it's much of a secret. Tesco has more resources to maintain this for longer, but is not indefinite.

So with no increases in income and an increase in costs, they are almost certainly going to lose. Unfortunately i think they will feel it more acutely than anyone else.

I think it was highly irresponsible of people like Martin Lewis to claim, you have nothing to lose. Clearly they do.

This is what's going to hurt the lower incomes the most.

Yes, austerity has been screwing them over, but inflation has been low, you increase that, and see how things are then.

They'll be less money coming into the economy, and the pound is likely to fall further when we do actually leave.

[Red-Soldier]

what do people will think will happen the rate of sterling?

if i google then its pretty much 50-50 with people saying itll go weaker or stronger against the euro

It does depends on what kind of deal we get with the EU I think.

I think it'll drop further regardless, how much so, depends on the deal.

[Kashinoda]

what do people will think will happen the rate of sterling?

if i google then its pretty much 50-50 with people saying itll go weaker or stronger against the euro

All we know is it's going to continue to be shite for at least 18 months, then it could get worse or better.

[killer-heels]

Its safe to say that with Brexit the one group i dont give a shit about is big businesses. I know there are loads of smaller support businesses that are propped up by these and they employ loads of people but firms in the City, retailers and even car manufacturers have courted the Tory party. Now they are begging for things like passporting, customs union etc.

[classycarra]

Its safe to say that with Brexit the one group i dont give a shit about is big businesses. I know there are loads of smaller support businesses that are propped up by these and they employ loads of people but firms in the City, retailers and even car manufacturers have courted the Tory party. Now they are begging for things like passporting, customs union etc.

While I largely agree with the sentiment, the fact is the City brings in the biggest tax receipts in the UK. Without them, services are at risk of further cutbacks (particularly under this rabid Tory government).

I'm very much pro small local businesses, but further austerity coupled with uncertainty is not going to create an environment conducive to people starting up new businesses.

Granted, there will probably be some innovation out of necessity, but I'd expect that to be heavily outweighed by those who prefer to cling on in their current job out of fear of the financial uncertainty of a new business.

[oldfordie]

We did learn something last night, Davis butted in to make the big point strongly.
The people didn't vote to cut Immigration they voted for control of Immigration.
We had ways of controlling Immigration but our government refused to enforce it.
No idea how this is going to play out but looks like the Torys are going to spin this to get a deal.

[Red-Soldier]

We did learn something last night, Davis butted in to make the big point strongly.
The people didn't vote to cut Immigration they voted for control of Immigration.
We had ways of controlling Immigration but our government refused to enforce it.
No idea how this is going to play out but looks like the Torys are going to spin this to get a deal.

In order for that to work, the rags have to go along with it too.  They can't keep churning out shite about huge numbers of immigrants are at our doors and we can't keep them out etc etc.

The issue is that the people who voted for Brexit aren't interested in facts and evidence, or cannot comprehend them.  So when numbers don't go down, and things get worse in the UK, they'll just be blaming something else.

[oldfordie]

In order for that to work, the rags have to go along with it too.  They can't keep churning out shite about huge numbers of immigrants are at our doors and we can't keep them out etc etc.

The issue is that the people who voted for Brexit aren't interested in facts and evidence, or cannot comprehend them.  So when numbers don't go down, and things get worse in the UK, they'll just be blaming something else.

Yes there will be a lot of very upset leave voters,they all had a different vision of what Brexit means but the fact is the Brexit they want is impossible.it was obvious the Torys were always going to try and sell a bad deal as a victory. the question is what do the Torys want.
There not bothered about Immigration but they know they have to come up with something that gets them off the hook.claiming they've won control may be their only way out if they want a deal.
They certainly want to do away with regulations, imo,this is more important to them than Immegration and trade deals.

[TheShanklyGates]

MPs 'walk out' in protest at 'too gloomy' Brexit report

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39417715

You just have to laugh at this utter shit show.

[hide5seek]

Picked this up from ukpollingreport

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/27/brexiteers-immigration-promises-unravelling
“The message that the voters heard loud and clear was that escaping the grip of Brussels would mean fewer foreigners coming to Britain. As Deborah Mattinson’s fascinating Britainthinks panel surveys have shown, leave voters interpret “hard Brexit” unequivocally as being “tough on immigrants” and are uninterested in economic counter-arguments. What motivates leavers, Mattinson concludes, is “broader cultural issues”.
This qualitative research has been reinforced by quantitative findings: according to an Ipsos Mori poll in Friday’s Evening Standard, 61% regard immigration curbs as the priority in the forthcoming negotiations. A recent study by the NatCen thinktank indicated that 68% want the principle of free movement to go.”

[ShakaHislop]

Well, it's good that many within Labour did not hitch themselves to the anti-immigrant bandwagon and are now in a position to capitalis...oh shit.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/andy-burnham/news/81532/andy-burnham-blasts-labour-support

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/82513/excl-dan-jarvis-labour-must-get-tough-immigration

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/home-affairs/house/81776/yvette-cooper-labour-can-make-progressive-argument-ending-free

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/81638/hilary-benn-deepens-labour-immigration-row-call

Add Kier Starmer, and the 29 signatories to this letter - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/11/arguments-against-single-market-membership-illustrate-a-lack-of-ambition - with their "have your cake and eat it" approach and Labour are up the immigration shit creek with the Leavers.

[killer-heels]

While I largely agree with the sentiment, the fact is the City brings in the biggest tax receipts in the UK. Without them, services are at risk of further cutbacks (particularly under this rabid Tory government).

I'm very much pro small local businesses, but further austerity coupled with uncertainty is not going to create an environment conducive to people starting up new businesses.

Granted, there will probably be some innovation out of necessity, but I'd expect that to be heavily outweighed by those who prefer to cling on in their current job out of fear of the financial uncertainty of a new business.

The City was keen to cosy up to the Tories and any government and you could argue its their behaviour which has led to all this. Obviously the City getting trashed would harm the country significantly but I don't think I can shed a tear for that or big businesses. They are all so Tory its unreal. Now there they are, begging for their own self importance.

[killer-heels]

Well, it's good that many within Labour did not hitch themselves to the anti-immigrant bandwagon and are now in a position to capitalis...oh shit.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/andy-burnham/news/81532/andy-burnham-blasts-labour-support

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/82513/excl-dan-jarvis-labour-must-get-tough-immigration

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/home-affairs/house/81776/yvette-cooper-labour-can-make-progressive-argument-ending-free

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/81638/hilary-benn-deepens-labour-immigration-row-call

Add Kier Starmer, and the 29 signatories to this letter - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/11/arguments-against-single-market-membership-illustrate-a-lack-of-ambition - with their "have your cake and eat it" approach and Labour are up the immigration shit creek with the Leavers.

I don't mind what some of them have said (albeit the 29 MP's who signed that letter are mad) about immigration except Andy Burnham. He went full on twat mode when he linked immigration with crime. He can fuck off with rhetoric like that.

[killer-heels]

Could people be banned from uttering the phrases ..."we need to work together to get the best possible deal and make the best of Brexit...".

What exactly does that mean? How exactly does the general public 'come together'? Don't people just go about their own lives or do they think that their existence matters in all this?

Oh and ban vox pops.

[oldfordie]

Could people be banned from uttering the phrases ..."we need to work together to get the best possible deal and make the best of Brexit...".

What exactly does that mean? How exactly does the general public 'come together'? Don't people just go about their own lives or do they think that their existence matters in all this?

Oh and ban vox pops.

It means stop exposing the Torys incompetence and lies as they want to do as they please without being held to account stop being negative and get behind the TorysCountry, the EU will crap themselves and give us a fantastic deal.

[ShakaHislop]

I don't mind what some of them have said (albeit the 29 MP's who signed that letter are mad) about immigration except Andy Burnham. He went full on twat mode when he linked immigration with crime. He can fuck off with rhetoric like that.

I don't mind people genuinely advocating a system for controlled immigration for EU nationals. I don't agree with it, and very likely wouldn't vote for a party proposing it but if you honestly believe it is the best thing for the country, fair enough.

With that being said, none of the above's clamouring for this tough stance on immigration feels sincere. "Responding to people's concerns" about immigration after the referendum suggests either they didn't give a shit about said concerns beforehand, which doesn't paint them in a good light or they know deep down that this rabid desire from the public to cut immigration by any means will harm the economy (hence their support for Remain before the ref) but don't have the balls to continue saying it after losing one vote, which is equally as appalling, if not worse.

If you really thought stopping free movement was a priority for this country, you would have supported Leave. To my knowledge, none of the MPs above did so their stances now are primarily shameless attempts to keep their seats. Losing Labour MPs from Parliament is not something I want to see but what's the point of them being there if they not going to fight for what I think they really believe in? I don't vote for a party of placeholders; I vote for people who I believe are like-minded and will represent me in Parliament.

[ShakaHislop]

[So… Howard Philips]

Picked this up from ukpollingreport

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/27/brexiteers-immigration-promises-unravelling
“The message that the voters heard loud and clear was that escaping the grip of Brussels would mean fewer foreigners coming to Britain. As Deborah Mattinson’s fascinating Britainthinks panel surveys have shown, leave voters interpret “hard Brexit” unequivocally as being “tough on immigrants” and are uninterested in economic counter-arguments. What motivates leavers, Mattinson concludes, is “broader cultural issues”.
This qualitative research has been reinforced by quantitative findings: according to an Ipsos Mori poll in Friday’s Evening Standard, 61% regard immigration curbs as the priority in the forthcoming negotiations. A recent study by the NatCen thinktank indicated that 68% want the principle of free movement to go.”

If the leave voters think that Brexit means being" tough on immigrants" then they may well be disappointed.

There was a debate on Breakfast this morning on the hospitality industry. A senior figure from Best Western was saying that the industry could suffer severely after Brexit. "Lord" Digby Jones pooh, poohed this and said that we would be able to attract staff from India...realising that this wouldn't go down well with a segment of the leavers and covering up his slip he quickly said that we could also attract staff from Australia and New Zealand.

Controlled immigration probably means ensuring even cheaper labour from around the world.

Interesting to see how the red tops react to this.

[rafathegaffa83]

Between Davis spilling the reality of a post-Brexit immigration policy, Scotland marching towards IndyRef 2 and MPs walking out on Benn's "gloomy" (read realistic) Brexit report, it's not been a great Article 50 Eve for the Brexiteers

[Bunter]

How bad would it be economically losing Scotland or N.Ireland in the union? I'm honestly not too sure.

[Libertine]

How bad would it be economically losing Scotland or N.Ireland in the union? I'm honestly not too sure.

Not really a matter of economics. It would be a massive blow to the prestige and image of a country for large chunks of it to decide they have no future in the union and seek independence or unification with another country.

Looks at the countries this has happened to recently - USSR/Russia, Yugoslavia/Serbia, Sudan (?). Not exactly great models to follow.

[killer-heels]

How bad would it be economically losing Scotland or N.Ireland in the union? I'm honestly not too sure.

Don't think it would be too bad for us in England. Plus imagine how great it will be to see the United Kingdom break apart? All the super patriotic people will have their precious union in the dustbin.

[TheShanklyGates]

It's just all so incredibly sad that this country has come to this.

[Trada]

The next 2 years are going to be fun a laugh a minute.

[killer-heels]

Who determines what the EU funding is spent on?

[ShakaHislop]

Who determines what the EU funding is spent on?

This might help
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/money/expenditure_en

[oldfordie]

17 things European funding has done for Merseyside
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/17-things-european-funding-done-10925208

[killer-heels]

It's just all so incredibly sad that this country has come to this.

Its not that sad. The triggering of Article 50 will probably be a expression of theatre on both sides. Remainers crying and kissing a foreigner with a EU flag on their face, old Brexit voters being let out of their care homes to wave a planted flag, Polish centres being sent cakes saying they are loved, whilst the same centres having swastikas graffitied onto them.

But for most of the public, rightly they wont give a shit.

[oldfordie]

[Kashinoda]

Continued shit hurling really does nothing, the individual voter is at fault for nothing.

The Tories are the ones responsible for getting us in this mess, and for the time being they're going to be the ones to continually fuck the process.

[oldfordie]

Continued shit hurling really does nothing, the individual voter is at fault for nothing.

The Tories are the ones responsible for getting us in this mess, and for the time being they're going to be the ones to continually fuck the process.

Millions of those leave voters backed the Torys when they have tried abuse our democracy by bypassing parliament, backed them when they threatened our judges, individuals fighting for democracy, the house of Lords.
The Torys are to blame for this mess but this goes far deeper than just voting stay or leave.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Continued shit hurling really does nothing, the individual voter is at fault for nothing.

The Tories are the ones responsible for getting us in this mess, and for the time being they're going to be the ones to continually fuck the process.

Nah. Brexiters made their bed and forced everyone else to lie in it

[jillcwhomever]

Continued shit hurling really does nothing, the individual voter is at fault for nothing.

The Tories are the ones responsible for getting us in this mess, and for the time being they're going to be the ones to continually fuck the process.

No that really isn't true. Its no good people saying they didn't understand about the consequences, before then going ahead and voting for Brexit. If they really didn't understand they should have voted to remain, that is basic common sense when all is said and done. Anyone else only has themself to blame, and I won't tire of saying it.

[TepidT2O]

What are the bookies odds that we end up with a deal in two years time?

I reckon there's almost no chance ....