Topic: New Poll 2015: Gay Adoption

[Elmo!]

My words are what I'm writing now, this isn't a criminal case  . For me, it's not beneficial for a girl to grow up with 2 men or a single man in comparison to a couple or someone that she can relate to, ie 2 females. The same does not apply to boys (I know, doesn't make sense).

Absolutely, we don't know what percentage applied and received a child. But you can't just dismiss them as if they mean nothing.

Absolutely we can dismiss the way you interpreted it, as it indeed meant nothing.

To be honest, I don't think anyone is going to get anywhere arguing with you, as you dismiss the only study into it and counter with arguments you yourself admit make no sense.

[CraigDS]

Absolutely, we don't know what percentage applied and received a child. But you can't just dismiss them as if they mean nothing.

They mean nothing in terms of having anything to do with the argument that single men are 'very low on the priority list.'

Which is what you said and what I said what stats that is based on.

If you want to show that they are low of the priority list then show that very few single male applicants get approved to adopt. Just showing very few decide that they want to adopt isn't proof of them being low priority.

[Packalacky]

Absolutely we can dismiss the way you interpreted it, as it indeed meant nothing.

To be honest, I don't think anyone is going to get anywhere arguing with you, as you dismiss the only study into it and counter with arguments you yourself admit make no sense.

Show me the percentage of girls adopted by Gay men in the study. I asked for it but you didn't reply.

[johnsmithlfc]

My words are what I'm writing now, this isn't a criminal case  . For me, it's not beneficial for a girl to grow up with 2 men or a single man in comparison to a couple or someone that she can relate to, ie 2 females. The same does not apply to boys (I know, doesn't make sense).

Yeah but there's a difference in saying "ideally a child would have two parents" or "a mother and father is the traditional family unit" to what you actually said -  that it would be harmful (as you yourself stated - implying abuse) for a girl to be raised by two guys or a child to be raised by two guys and not have a female role model.

Different does not, IMHO, necessarily mean worse or harmful or bad.
Plenty of people are different...Plenty of families make it work.

All you need is love.

[Elmo!]

Show me the percentage of girls adopted by Gay men in the study. I asked for it but you didn't reply.

You didn't ask me and regardless it doesn't matter.  As has been explained to you already, it is the percentage approved that matters, not the percentage of adoptions.

[Packalacky]

You didn't ask me and regardless it doesn't matter.  As has been explained to you already, it is the percentage approved that matters, not the percentage of adoptions.

It matters to me since that is what I am against. 80% of gay women doing a good job of raising kids is not a surprise to me. It's great to see in fact and I fully support it. I just have a problem with gay men raising girls for the reason I stated. The reason I answered this post initially was in response to In Fowler we trust and to give my point of view on it, that it's not all black and white. Not everyone opposes it for religious reasons or bigoted reasons but simply because of what's best for the child, even if doesn't always make sense. I feel that it's in the best interest of girls to have someone they can relate to, more so than boys, so if it came to a vote on an absolute yes/no question I would vote no. Once there are enough studies, with a decent sample size stating otherwise, I'll gladly change my mind.

[Redman0151]

Couple questions for the No voters out of interest:

If a public vote came around to decide whether gay adoption should be allowed, would you actively go to a polling station and vote No or is it just more of a "if i'm forced to answer" thing?

Would you still vote No if you knew the alternative was more children stuck in care homes and orphanages?

[Johnnyboy1973]

I can't give you a logical answer to that, or one that can be proven to be beneficial either way, it's just that for me it seems more acceptable for women to raise a boy than for men to raise a girl.

You cant argue with that. I dont know why people are trying. It's dripping with perceived social norms and the need for female perspective whatever that is?

Presumably a girl raised by men will be missing her burning love for pink and to be a princess.

[The North Bank]

Couple questions for the No voters out of interest:

If a public vote came around to decide whether gay adoption should be allowed, would you actively go to a polling station and vote No or is it just more of a "if i'm forced to answer" thing?

Would you still vote No if you knew the alternative was more children stuck in care homes and orphanages?

I didn't even know they weren't allowed to adopt, until this poll came out.
I definitely wouldn't get out of bed for that one.

[hide5seek]

I didn't even know they weren't allowed to adopt, until this poll came out.
I definitely wouldn't get out of bed for that one.

Gay people can adopt.

[Doc Red]

Am I missing something here?
Is gay marriage not already legal in England?  Can gay married couples raise up their own children? If so, presumably there are already countless gay couples that are raising up their own children. Are there any statistics that show children raised up by gay parents are less likely to be contributing members of society? Or more likely to face emotional and/or psychological issues? If there are, I haven't seen them.

If the answer to both is "no", and taking into consideration that people in England (from what I understand) are free to do/think/feel/act as they wish (obviously unless it causes violent conflicts with one another, or breaks legal law), why should there be an outcry over gay couples adopting. If as a society you're comfortable with gay couples getting married and raising kids, how is this somehow different? You've already passed the threshold of giving rights for gay couples to legal cohabitate, legally get married, and legally raise their own kids, surely legally adopting children is only natural?

And State and Church are separated in England, is that not so? So say you personally disapprove of gay couples raising up children (or maybe even getting married) strictly on religious reasons, in terms of the rights of gay couples in England, surely you'd agree that they have the right that everyone else has, even though you don't agree with it?  Do we really want to live in a society where we only give rights to those that agree with us?

[Doc Red]

Edit: I've read some responses that highlighted the challenges/difficulties children raised up with gay parents might face, and how that somehow is a reason not to support gay adoption.

I see where you're coming from, but that sort of statement makes me feel a little uneasy. A couple of decades back, mixed marriages were incredibly taboo in the US (in someplaces it might still be a bit of a taboo). I'm sure the parents of the mixed couples would tell them about how concerned they were about their potential grandchildren facing bullying etc. Truth be told, as difficult as it was for the early pioneers, they were the ones that paved the way and made it easier for the rest of us to follow. Sometimes the only way society can adapt and embrace change is if it has to see it right in front of our face.

[Barneylfc∗]

There's a kid in my sons class who's mother is now a lesbian (I don't know if 'is now a lesbian' is the correct way of putting it, but when I knew her when we were younger, both her and her sister were into men. Now they're both into women and are in long term lesbian relationships). There isn't a thing wrong with him or his brother. Neither of them get any hassle, both are very intellignet kids and very well liked not only in their class but in the whole school. The one in my sons class would be deemed the 'leader' in their group of friends.

Just following on from this, a question for Packalacky

Put all the people from above as the opposite sex - A couple have 2 daughters. They split up. The dad takes the kids as the mother is a bit of a drinker and drug user, or whatever scenario, either way, the dad takes the 2 daughters. The dad then realises a while later that he actually fancies big Dave down the street, who is a known gay man. Dad and Dave have a pint down the local, one thing leads to another, and 6 months later, they live together as a gay couple. Should Dad give up the kids or should he keep them?

[Barneylfc∗]

Edit: I've read some responses that highlighted the challenges/difficulties children raised up with gay parents might face, and how that somehow is a reason not to support gay adoption.

I see where you're coming from, but that sort of statement makes me feel a little uneasy. A couple of decades back, mixed marriages were incredibly taboo in the US (in someplaces it might still be a bit of a taboo). I'm sure the parents of the mixed couples would tell them about how concerned they were about their potential grandchildren facing bullying etc. Truth be told, as difficult as it was for the early pioneers, they were the ones that paved the way and made it easier for the rest of us to follow. Sometimes the only way society can adapt and embrace change is if it has to see it right in front of our face.

Yeah I've seen a few 'society isn't ready for it' posts. If they aren't ready for it in 2015, when the fuck will they be ready. If society is against any kind of equality, then fuck society.

[Ronnie1932]

Got to love how people are asked to explain why they voted no and then have to face the Spanish Inquisition,. We voted no, get over it.

[CraigDS]

Got to love how people are asked to explain why they voted no and then have to face the Spanish Inquisition,. We voted no, get over it.

The question was asked so a discussion could be had. Not such a strange concept for a discussion forum.

Get over it.

[Barneylfc∗]

Got to love how people are asked to explain why they voted no and then have to face the Spanish Inquisition,. We voted no, get over it.

Why did you vote no? And it's not the Spanish Inquisition. Packalacky has, admittedly, put across a point of view that doesn't make sense. Of course he's going to be questioned on it. I haven't seen any of the 'no' voters give a reason that isn't just their own personal backward view of 'normality'.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Got to love how people are asked to explain why they voted no and then have to face the Spanish Inquisition,. We voted no, get over it.

Would you care to explain why? 

[CraigDS]

Would you care to explain why? 

They went for the 'but the kid might get bullied' line of reasoning.

So presumably also thinks ginger, ugly, disabled, fat, poor, non-white (in predominately white areas), etc. all shouldn't be allowed to adopt as they are also no doubt reasons for kids to bully another kid.

I voted no purely for the reasons that Crosby Wych addressed, I didn't think it fair on the child in regards to the prejudice they may be exposed to growing up and how that might be very difficult for them.

I'm not saying I was wrong to think that way, maybe naive or maybe I'm homophobic and don't realise it.

Is that a bit like I'm not racist I've got black friends?

[reddebs]

I voted yes but isn't the issue the word "gay"? 

Aren't all kids raised by men, women or both?  They're all parents, some do a good job, some don't. 

[Packalacky]

Just following on from this, a question for Packalacky

Put all the people from above as the opposite sex - A couple have 2 daughters. They split up. The dad takes the kids as the mother is a bit of a drinker and drug user, or whatever scenario, either way, the dad takes the 2 daughters. The dad then realises a while later that he actually fancies big Dave down the street, who is a known gay man. Dad and Dave have a pint down the local, one thing leads to another, and 6 months later, they live together as a gay couple. Should Dad give up the kids or should he keep them?

That's not adoption so not relevant to the topic, obviously the father can make whichever choice he wants.

This is about carers making a choice of where to place kids.

[Elmo!]

That's not adoption so not relevant to the topic, obviously the father can make whichever choice he wants.

This is about carers making a choice of where to place kids.

You still haven't answered the question on whether you'd prefer a kid to spend their childhood in care/foster homes or with a gay couple.

[Gerrard#1]

The only good study of this (from Australia) shows that kids of same sex couples have better outcomes than those of opposite sex couples....

What is a 'better outcome'?

[Gerrard#1]

I haven't voted because I'm still on the fence about this.

I personally wouldn't want to be adopted by a same sex couple due to all the attention I would receive especially being a guy. I can understand why someone wouldn't see a problem with being adopted by a same sex couple but I personally like to keep to myself and would prefer not to be the centre of attention. At school and in our neighbourhood it would eventually become normal after being there for a while. However, I could just imagine at every public place being stared at because my parents are different. The attention may not necessarily be negative but it would be unwanted by me never the less. I'm a lot better at coping with situations like that now but as a young child and during my early teen years I could see myself struggling to deal with all the unwanted attention. So IMO it depends on the individual child's personality in whether or not they may be negatively affected by this parental situation.


After some research into the issue I found an interesting article here that seems to indicate that lesbian and transexual relationships are almost two times more likely to involve domestic abuse than gay (men) or straight relationships.

"The National Violence Against Women survey found that 21.5 percent of men and 35.4 percent of women living with a same-sex partner experienced intimate-partner physical violence in their lifetimes, compared with 7.1% and 20.4% for men and women, respectively, with a history of only opposite-sex cohabitation. Transgender respondents had an incidence of 34.6 percent over a lifetime according to a Massachusetts survey."

http://www.advocate.com/crime/2014/09/04/2-studies-prove-domestic-violence-lgbt-issue

That challenges the idea that men are the main instigators of domestic violence and could also make a case that transexual and lesbian parents are statistically half as likely to provide a safe environment for their children, compared to gay male parents or straight parents.

[Packalacky]

You still haven't answered the question on whether you'd prefer a kid to spend their childhood in care/foster homes or with a gay couple.

 

Don't know how often I have to repeat myself. Read my first post again.

[thejbs]

I haven't voted because I'm still on the fence about this.

I personally wouldn't want to be adopted by a same sex couple due to all the attention I would receive especially being a guy. I can understand why someone wouldn't see a problem with being adopted by a same sex couple but I personally like to keep to myself and would prefer not to be the centre of attention. At school and in our neighbourhood it would eventually become normal after being there for a while. However, I could just imagine at every public place being stared at because my parents are different. The attention may not necessarily be negative but it would be unwanted by me never the less. I'm a lot better at coping with situations like that now but as a young child and during my early teen years I could see myself struggling to deal with all the unwanted attention. So IMO it depends on the individual child's personality in whether or not they may be negatively affected by this parental situation.

that's society's problem, not the child's.  And the only way to eradicate the stigmatism is to nomalise same-sex parenting as it should be.

[CornerFlag]

To adapt Packalacky's argument to perspectives for a daughter growing up, what are the differences between two gay men not being able to provide a female perspective for a daughter and two gay women not having a male perspective to give to a son?  What's different about the extended families of these couples that can't offer these perspectives that makes it "better" for a mixed-sex couple to adopt?  I'd counter that those in same-sex couples are probably more likely to be placed under greater scrutiny about how the child is raised so they would be more aware of those sorts of needs compared to a mixed-sex couple.

I just can't buy into the argument that conforming to this supposed norm of straight couples being a more stable and nurturing environment is a good thing.  You take the high-profile cases in recent years where child neglect was prominent (McCann, Matthews, "Baby P") or where deviancy has come from married opposite-sex couples (Jeremy Forrest) and it just highlights how bad parenting and unstable familial situations can arise from anywhere regardless of gender and orientation.

[CraigDS]

I personally wouldn't want to be adopted by a same sex couple due to all the attention I would receive especially being a guy. I can understand why someone wouldn't see a problem with being adopted by a same sex couple but I personally like to keep to myself and would prefer not to be the centre of attention. At school and in our neighbourhood it would eventually become normal after being there for a while. However, I could just imagine at every public place being stared at because my parents are different. The attention may not necessarily be negative but it would be unwanted by me never the less. I'm a lot better at coping with situations like that now but as a young child and during my early teen years I could see myself struggling to deal with all the unwanted attention. So IMO it depends on the individual child's personality in whether or not they may be negatively affected by this parental situation.

I doubt as a young child (presuming most adoptions are of younger children) you'd notice people looking, and if you did I doubt you'd put two and two together that they are looking because you have two Dad's or two Mum's - especially as to you that would be perfectly normal.

[Ronnie1932]

I doubt as a young child (presuming most adoptions are of younger children) you'd notice people looking, and if you did I doubt you'd put two and two together that they are looking because you have two Dad's or two Mum's - especially as to you that would be perfectly normal.

When I was younger my school mates thought it was weird I never had a mum and lived with my dad which obviously made me question why.

If you don't think kids wouldn't question why a child was being dropped off at school by two different men and never a mother, or kids wouldn't talk about getting in there mum and dads bed and wondering why you were getting in your dad and dads bed then I think you're being naive.

It would lead to some very uncomfortable questions when older as well by which time you understand what gay is and society's feelings on it, hence why we have a thread on "should gay couples be allowed to adopt". If that was considered the norm there would be no thread.

Personally it would depend on how the child can handle it, but since were talking about children of a young age how do you know how it will effect them later in life.

[SP]

They went for the 'but the kid might get bullied' line of reasoning.

So presumably also thinks ginger, ugly, disabled, fat, poor, non-white (in predominately white areas), etc. all shouldn't be allowed to adopt as they are also no doubt reasons for kids to bully another kid.

Only beautiful white people can have sex by that logic. Anything else would not be fair on the children.

[CornerFlag]

Only beautiful white people can have sex by that logic. Anything else would not be fair on the children.

14/88, lad.  Telling ya.

Dammit, Godwin's Law.

[TepidT2O]

Let's be honest.. People don't admit it, but they are against this for two reasons.

1.  They think gay people are more likely to abuse children.

2. They think the kids will turn out gay.


Both are bollocks of course.

However, I find this idea of binary sexuality really intriguing.  You look back through history and it just wasn't the case..

In Rome, it was considered somewhat abnormal to be a man who only slept with women and not boys too..

How times change...

[Rastas]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4259990/Gay-dads-live-fear-adoptive-child-KILL-them.html

[SP]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4259990/Gay-dads-live-fear-adoptive-child-KILL-them.html

Troubled teen. Sad story, but the parents being gay is probably the least significant part of that.

[Craig S]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4259990/Gay-dads-live-fear-adoptive-child-KILL-them.html

Can i recommend the Daily mail blocker extension to you?  https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/daily-mail-blocker/ghjadbffkapbnlbccfjoljfhgolbofhi?hl=en-GB

I didn't even see that was daily mail when I clicked on the link, so I got a funny cat gif instead. Cheered me up.
Just need a sun one now.

[nick_8589]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4259990/Gay-dads-live-fear-adoptive-child-KILL-them.html

I don't really see the relevance, what point are you trying to make posting that here??

[the 92A]

You can try to come up with all sorts of arguments to hide behind but the bottom line is being Gay or straight  male or female  red hair or blue hair none of that is important if you love the kids and bring them up well. kids are brought up well by people who are completely diverse with all sorts of different attributes and difficulties and no one would dream of banning them from bringing up kids.


If you think Gay people shouldn't be able to adopt  I personally wouldn't want you adopting any of my kids I wouldn't want a Tory bringing up my kids but I certainly wouldn't argue that my prejudices should stop tories or people in this thread from adopting  because that would be as ignorant as some of the posters who think who you fancy should stop you adopting a kid

[Jake]

If you think Gay people shouldn't be able to adopt  I personally wouldn't want you adopting any of my kids I wouldn't want a Tory bringing up my kids but I certainly wouldn't argue that my prejudices should stop tories or people in this thread from adopting  because that would be as ignorant as some of the posters who think who you fancy should stop you adopting a kid

That's unfair comparing gay people to tories. There's nothing wrong with being gay. Being part of the nasty party however...

[the 92A]

That's unfair comparing gay people to tories. There's nothing wrong with being gay. Being part of the nasty party however...

It's only comparing gays to Tories if you misunderstand the logic. I'm using an example of my prejudice against Tories to highlight what, I perceive, as other peoples prejudice against gays.

[Gnurglan]

There are many, many good parents out there and quite a few bad ones as well. Says it all. That people's sexual orientation should get to decide if you are suitable to adopt is mis-directed. For some reason I used to say 'no'. I have grown wiser.