Topic: FSG (*)

[El Lobo]

Look at our league finishing positions and trophy haul since they've taken under. We've underachieved. That's a fucking fact.

I think you quoted the wrong post mate 

[liverpool185]

Look at our league finishing positions and trophy haul since they've taken under. We've underachieved. That's a fucking fact. Another trophyless season under FSG this season, it's become the norm.

Is it FSG's fault we lost two final's last season?

[El Lobo]

Is it FSG's fault we lost two final's last season?

Oooh now you've done it!!!

Let me get in there first.

Yes, yes it is. For not backing the manager in the transfer market.

[Billy The Kid]

We won the League Cup in Kenny's 2nd season and reached the FA Cup final . We went out of the League Cup failing to score a goal in two games against Southampton and lost at home to Wolves in the Cup this season . So how the fuck are we more competitive this season given our chances of winning anything were over in January.

We finished on 52 points in Kenny's second season. It was our worst league finish in over 30 years. We only won 14 games out of 38. We finished level on points with (the now relegated) Fulham. The only reason we pipped them to 8th place was because we had a slightly better goal difference than them. You also seem to be forgetting that we finished a meager 5 points ahead of West Brom, Swansea and (the now relegated) Norwich

Fulham actually scored more goals than us. We had a better defense but Fulham actually outscored a Liverpool team containing Steven Gerrard and Luis Suarez. As did Norwich City and Blackburn - who by the way - got relegated that year. We scored 1 goal more than Bolton, who also got relegated that year. We only scored a couple of goals more than West Brom, Swansea, Sunderland, QPR and Wigan. Go back and look at the table if you don't believe me. It was an absolute fucking car crash of a season

We currently have 4 points more now than we accrued in the entire 2011/2012 league campaign. And that's with 9 games and 27 points still to play for. We also currently have scored 14 goals more than we did that entire season. Based on our remaining fixtures and the fixtures of our rivals, I think it's fair to say that we are in with a seriously good chance of finishing this season's league campaign as runners up. Quite a difference to where we finished in 2012, wouldn't you agree?

I've witnessed you post some pretty outlandish stuff in this thread, but seeing you ask "how the fuck are we more competitive this season" in comparison to Kenny's final season is without doubt one of the most bat-shit crazy posts I've ever read on this forum. Even by your standards, that's an absolute whopper of a statement Al. There is no comparison. We're a world away from where we were in 2012.

Knowing you, you'll probably try to wriggle out of this by pointing to our league cup win and our run in the FA cup so let me pull you on that before you even go there. Cup runs are not accurate barometers or indicators of progress. Crystal Palace, Aston Villa, Hull City, and Wigan have all reached FA Cup finals in the last 5 years. Sunderland, Swansea, Bradford, Cardiff and Birmingham have all reached league cup finals in the same period.

Don't get me wrong, I fully acknowledge the importance of winning trophies. I get the whole "Liverpool exists to win trophies" mantra. I'm on side with all of that. I fully acknowledge that regardless of league position, Kenny's last season will still go down in the history books as a trophy winning season. That being said, there's a wider point here and that is: there's only 1 way to properly assess if a team is on an upward trajectory or on a downward trajectory and that's by looking at the league table come seasons end. It's not who wins the cup finals. If it was then Wigan wouldn't be in the Championship

 I'm not saying we were in danger of going down under Kenny, but we were certainly on a downward trajectory. Our league statistics were alarmingly bad. Some of our performances that year were painful to watch. I don't think we strung any decent results together where we looked like going on a run. Sure, we might have had the league cup in the trophy cabinet but we had slid into mid-table mediocrity. A long ways from the standards expected of Liverpool FC

Jurgen Klopps Liverpool side would slap the absolute piss out of Kenny's Liverpool side. That's not a dig at Kenny by the way. It's just a fact. We might not have a league cup to show for it at the end of the season, but in the grander scheme of things, this side is far more competitive than Kenny's team ever was. If you can't see that then you've lost your marbles lad

[Eeyore]

This is just absolute bullshit.  If you can't see that we are more competitive then just a year ago then you need to open your eyes.  Just because it's not happening overnight doesn't mean it isn't happening. 

How competitive where we around the turn of the year when we had to play more than one game a week. When we losing in the League and scraping past Plymouth Argyle and losing at Home to Wolves in the Cup. Even without European Football we struggled without Mane.

Last time we didn't have European Football to contend with we nearly won the League. Are we more competitive than that ?

Chelsea have shown over the last two seasons what a massive advantage it is having no European Football. Yet even without that we have struggled to be competitive across the domestic season.

There has been a pattern under FSG 5th to 8th with European Football and competing in the League but doing badly in the Cups with no European Football. So are we more competitive or just benefiting from no European Football ?

[NaivetyinBlack]

Good post, Billy The Kid.

Jurgen Klopps Liverpool side would slap the absolute piss out of Kenny's Liverpool side.

That's because FSG didn't back Kenny in the transfer market.

[NaivetyinBlack]

Look at our league finishing positions and trophy haul since they've taken under. We've underachieved. That's a fucking fact. Another trophyless season under FSG this season, it's become the norm.

You might want to read what I posted again.

[Eeyore]

We finished on 52 points in Kenny's second season. It was our worst league finish in over 30 years. We only won 14 games out of 38. We finished level on points with (the now relegated) Fulham. The only reason we pipped them to 8th place was because we had a slightly better goal difference than them. You also seem to be forgetting that we finished a meager 5 points ahead of West Brom, Swansea and (the now relegated) Norwich

Fulham actually scored more goals than us. We had a better defense but Fulham actually outscored a Liverpool team containing Steven Gerrard and Luis Suarez. As did Norwich City and Blackburn - who by the way - got relegated that year. We scored 1 goal more than Bolton, who also got relegated that year. We only scored a couple of goals more than West Brom, Swansea, Sunderland, QPR and Wigan. Go back and look at the table if you don't believe me. It was an absolute fucking car crash of a season

We currently have 4 points more now than we accrued in the entire 2011/2012 league campaign. And that's with 9 games and 27 points still to play for. We also currently have scored 14 goals more than we did that entire season. Based on our remaining fixtures and the fixtures of our rivals, I think it's fair to say that we are in with a seriously good chance of finishing this season's league campaign as runners up. Quite a difference to where we finished in 2012, wouldn't you agree?

I've witnessed you post some pretty outlandish stuff in this thread, but seeing you ask "how the fuck are we more competitive this season" in comparison to Kenny's final season is without doubt one of the most bat-shit crazy posts I've ever read on this forum. Even by your standards, that's an absolute whopper of a statement Al. There is no comparison. We're a world away from where we were in 2012.

Knowing you, you'll probably try to wriggle out of this by pointing to our league cup win and our run in the FA cup so let me pull you on that before you even go there. Cup runs are not accurate barometers or indicators of progress. Crystal Palace, Aston Villa, Hull City, and Wigan have all reached FA Cup finals in the last 5 years. Sunderland, Swansea, Bradford, Cardiff and Birmingham have all reached league cup finals in the same period.

Don't get me wrong, I fully acknowledge the importance of winning trophies. I get the whole "Liverpool exists to win trophies" mantra. I'm on side with all of that. I fully acknowledge that regardless of league position, Kenny's last season will still go down in the history books as a trophy winning season. That being said, there's a wider point here and that is: there's only 1 way to properly assess if a team is on an upward trajectory or on a downward trajectory and that's by looking at the league table come seasons end. It's not who wins the cup finals. If it was then Wigan wouldn't be in the Championship

 I'm not saying we were in danger of going down under Kenny, but we were certainly on a downward trajectory. Our league statistics were alarmingly bad. Some of our performances that year were painful to watch. I don't think we strung any decent results together where we looked like going on a run. Sure, we might have had the league cup in the trophy cabinet but we had slid into mid-table mediocrity. A long ways from the standards expected of Liverpool FC

Jurgen Klopps Liverpool side would slap the absolute piss out of Kenny's Liverpool side. That's not a dig at Kenny by the way. It's just a fact. We might not have a league cup to show for it at the end of the season, but in the grander scheme of things, this side is far more competitive than Kenny's team ever was. If you can't see that then you've lost your marbles lad

I am not hiding from the fact that we ended the League campaign poorly. The thing is we were right in the fight for the top 4 in March. The pivotal game was at home to Arsenal on the 3rd of March a week after the League Cup win. We absolutely battered them Kuyt missed a penalty, Suarez hit the post and we somehow ended up losing the game to a Van Persie wonder goal. We were by far the better side that day despite Gerrard missing the game and if we had won we would of been 4 points behind Arsenal who finished 3rd that season with a game in hand and a favourable run in.

Having already lost Lucas who was in the form of his life and with Gerrard awaiting career threatening groin surgery we then lost Adam. Which left us with a midfield two of Jay Spearing and a teenage Jonjo Shelvey when Gerrard was unavailable. From that point on we put all our eggs in one basket and concentrated on the Fa Cup.

We had already secured European Football and with the Arsenal defeat the CL chances had gone.

To paint us as a poor team is plain wrong though. We won 2-0 at the Emirates, won twice at Stamford Bridge, beat Everton three times, Chelsea 3 times, knocked United out of the Cup, Knocked City out of the League Cup over two legs. All that despite losing Suarez for a long period and basically all of our senior central midfield players.

The proof of our competitiveness though is that we actually won a trophy and reached another final beating most of the best sides in the country along the way. This season without Mane and Coutinho we fell apart despite us playing less games than 11/12.

As Klopp's team being far more competitive than Kenny's then please explain why both managers had very similar win % ratios with less than 1% in it. Plus Kenny was up against a far better United team, a far better City team, a far better Arsenal team and a Chelsea team that won the Champions League that season.

The other thing is I think it is a bit disingenuous to talk about our lack of goals despite as you say having Gerrard and Suarez. Firstly Gerrard played in less than half our League games that season, secondly Suarez missed 8 games because of the Evra ban and thirdly it was a weird season in the League we hit the wood work a ridiculous number of times and Goalies had the games of their lives. You also missed out the cup games where we scored 32 times in 13 games.

You must also remember that Suarez was in great goal scoring form prior to firstly Ferguson's diving allegation and secondly the Evra incident. When he returned he never got close to that kind of goal scoring form. He did soon after though.

[ToneLa]

We won the League Cup in Kenny's 2nd season and reached the FA Cup final . We went out of the League Cup failing to score a goal in two games against Southampton and lost at home to Wolves in the Cup this season . So how the fuck are we more competitive this season given our chances of winning anything were over in January.

Ahem, does the Premier League not exist to you when it suits? Do you even bother watching us now we have had  nothing to play for since January?

[El Lobo]

Must just say as well, justifying a league campaign falling apart because Lucas and Charlie Adam got injured and in the next breath criticising this seasons poor results because Coutinho and Mane got injured, that's quite something.

[Eeyore]

Must just say as well, justifying a league campaign falling apart because Lucas and Charlie Adam got injured and in the next breath criticising this seasons poor results because Coutinho and Mane got injured, that's quite something.

When did Mane get injured ?

He didn't he was always going to the AFCON which is different to losing all your senior centre mids at the same time.

[Pistolero]

I am not hiding from the fact that we ended the League campaign poorly. The thing is we were right in the fight for the top 4 in March. The pivotal game was at home to Arsenal on the 3rd of March a week after the League Cup win. We absolutely battered them Kuyt missed a penalty, Suarez hit the post and we somehow ended up losing the game to a Van Persie wonder goal. We were by far the better side that day despite Gerrard missing the game and if we had won we would of been 4 points behind Arsenal who finished 3rd that season with a game in hand and a favourable run in.

Having already lost Lucas who was in the form of his life and with Gerrard awaiting career threatening groin surgery we then lost Adam. Which left us with a midfield two of Jay Spearing and a teenage Jonjo Shelvey when Gerrard was unavailable. From that point on we put all our eggs in one basket and concentrated on the Fa Cup.

We had already secured European Football and with the Arsenal defeat the CL chances had gone.

To paint us as a poor team is plain wrong though. We won 2-0 at the Emirates, won twice at Stamford Bridge, beat Everton three times, Chelsea 3 times, knocked United out of the Cup, Knocked City out of the League Cup over two legs. All that despite losing Suarez for a long period and basically all of our senior central midfield players.

The proof of our competitiveness though is that we actually won a trophy and reached another final beating most of the best sides in the country along the way. This season without Mane and Coutinho we fell apart despite us playing less games than 11/12.

As Klopp's team being far more competitive than Kenny's then please explain why both managers had very similar win % ratios with less than 1% in it. Plus Kenny was up against a far better United team, a far better City team, a far better Arsenal team and a Chelsea team that won the Champions League that season.

The other thing is I think it is a bit disingenuous to talk about our lack of goals despite as you say having Gerrard and Suarez. Firstly Gerrard played in less than half our League games that season, secondly Suarez missed 8 games because of the Evra ban and thirdly it was a weird season in the League we hit the wood work a ridiculous number of times and Goalies had the games of their lives. You also missed out the cup games where we scored 32 times in 13 games.

You must also remember that Suarez was in great goal scoring form prior to firstly Ferguson's diving allegation and secondly the Evra incident. When he returned he never got close to that kind of goal scoring form. He did soon after though.

Good post Al....the league was indeed stronger......and that season was completely blown out the fuckin water by the hard shoulder shitter and the Evra bollocks.....bitter arle wine guzzling twat got his wish and shafted LFC up the ringpiece with no lube...there was no coming back from that for Kenny....and it also set the clock ticking on Luis's departure

[El Lobo]

Having already lost Lucas who was in the form of his life and with Gerrard awaiting career threatening groin surgery we then lost Adam. Which left us with a midfield two of Jay Spearing and a teenage Jonjo Shelvey when Gerrard was unavailable. From that point on we put all our eggs in one basket and concentrated on the Fa Cup.

We signed Jordan Henderson the season after, right?

[Titi Camara]

Even if we say they've not raked in any cash.....

Bought for £300m

Current valuation circa £1b (Forbes - $1,548 M (£1,042 M) - April 20, 2016)

So if and when they sell us they'll eventually pocket circa £100m for every year they've owned us.

[CraigDS]

Even if we say they've not raked in any cash.....

Bought for £300m

Current valuation circa £1b (Forbes - $1,548 M (£1,042 M) - April 20, 2016)

So if and when they sell us they'll eventually pocket circa £100m for every year they've owned us.

How many people are willing to splash out £1bn for a football club? We struggled for 3 years to find someone to buy us when we were 'a steal'.

It's very very different to claim they're 'raking in the cash' as cowtown continually claims (and is continually corrected about).

[G a r y]

man's got a point...

He hasn't

[Pistolero]

He hasn't

Ok, see you at Wembley....last one there buys the hot dogs

[Diomedieocre]

Even if we say they've not raked in any cash.....

Bought for £300m

Current valuation circa £1b (Forbes - $1,548 M (£1,042 M) - April 20, 2016)

So if and when they sell us they'll eventually pocket circa £100m for every year they've owned us.

Par for the course isn't it?.  How much would Lewis make at spurs if he sold up now?. Usmanov/Kroenke at arsenal?, and the glaziers at mancs?. 

I drove past the Reynolds arena or whatever its called this morning....a stark reminder that things could be 10000x worse....so when posters want to get all dramatic and talk about how fsg have destroyed lfc they need to think about real destruction not hyperbole using because we have a positive net spend.

[Sheer Magnetism]

We signed Jordan Henderson the season after, right?

Henderson was there but Kenny generally played him on the right wing.

If I could move the discussion back to a macro level, I think it's hard to argue FSG haven't been good owners. They paid off the debt, expanded the ground almost 20% after years of delays and will be adding more seats, they hired one of the best managers in the world, got the commercial side of the club in order after years of neglect and have spent reasonably well in the transfer market (a £160m net spend in just over six years) while keeping within FFP. The club's increased in value at least partially because it's on an even keel, well run and anyone who might come in doesn't have much in the way of fires to put out. They've made some missteps but have generally stepped back once the fans have made their opinions clear.

I'm aware that's not enough for some people but ignoring the oil and gas sugar daddy clubs, which owners would you prefer? Spurs have made a net profit on their transfers in five of the last six seasons. Arsenal's owners are content to let the club stagnate while they enjoy the profits and jack up the ticket prices every year. The Glazers have used Man United as their own personal piggy bank for most of their tenure. And do I need to get on to Kenwright at Everton, Sullivan and Gold at West Ham, etc.? That's not to say FSG have been perfect because they haven't, but they know how to run a sports club and they've done a lot more good than bad.

[El Lobo]

Ok, see you at Wembley....last one there buys the hot dogs

Excellent point Pistolero, especially about the hot dogs.

[Titi Camara]

My point is even if we're not seeing some sort of cash/dividend/equivalent payment to the owners in the accounts each year it doesn't mean they're not here to make money. If they were to sell they'll make a huge profit which may have been their plan from the beginning.

[CraigDS]

My point is even if we're not seeing some sort of cash/dividend/equivalent payment to the owners in the accounts each year it doesn't mean they're not here to make money. If they were to sell they'll make a huge profit which may have been their plan from the beginning.

No one is arguing otherwise, but the point that was specifically made is that they were 'raking in the cash'. Not that they will make a profit if and when they come to sell, but they were currently 'raking in the cash'.

If people want to debate then let's do so using facts, and not deliberate attempts to deceive.

[El Lobo]

My point is even if we're not seeing some sort of cash/dividend/equivalent payment to the owners in the accounts each year it doesn't mean they're not here to make money. If they were to sell they'll make a huge profit which may have been their plan from the beginning.

If they end up making a profit selling the club by improving the state of the club, improving the playing squad, employing a top manager, increasing capacity at Anfield, improving the training and youth facilities and improving commercial activities then I don't really see an issue with that. There isn't anyone who was interested in buying us who wasn't looking at us as a bit of a potential bargain with a profit to be pretty easily made in the future.

But like Craig says, that's VERY different to saying they're raking the cash in which is patently untrue.

[Johnny Foreigner]

If they end up making a profit selling the club by improving the state of the club, improving the playing squad, employing a top manager, increasing capacity at Anfield, improving the training and youth facilities and improving commercial activities then I don't really see an issue with that. There isn't anyone who was interested in buying us who wasn't looking at us as a bit of a potential bargain with a profit to be pretty easily made in the future.

Like winning without winning ! sounds great

[Johnny Foreigner]

If they end up making a profit selling the club by improving the state of the club, improving the playing squad, employing a top manager, increasing capacity at Anfield, improving the training and youth facilities and improving commercial activities then I don't really see an issue with that. There isn't anyone who was interested in buying us who wasn't looking at us as a bit of a potential bargain with a profit to be pretty easily made in the future.

But like Craig says, that's VERY different to saying they're raking the cash in which is patently untrue.

There is an issue with the short payback on the new Main Stand is limiting our chances to win anything.. that is short term capitalism at its worst..

[G a r y]

Ok, see you at Wembley....last one there buys the hot dogs

So are you saying you preferred us under Dalglish than Klopp because we won the league cup and lost the FA Cup final? "So how the fuck are we more competitive this season given our chances of winning anything were over in January"

Do you honestly believe we aren't as competitive? As it has been said before this team would absolutely destroy that team even though it had Suarez, Gerrard and Agger

[El Lobo]

Like winning without winning ! sounds great

Um....yes exactly Johnny. I like how your posts always make perfect sense and are completely relevant to the post you're replying to

'Joseph Smith was called a profit
dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
He started the Mormon religion
dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb'

[CraigDS]

There is an issue with the short payback on the new Main Stand is limiting our chances to win anything.. that is short term capitalism at its worst..

How is it limiting our chances?

We've no less cash than before (if not a little extra), we've better facilities for the players and coaches, we've more fans inside the ground.

What you mean is we aren't seeing 100% of the benefits right now, but then we will see 100% of the benefits much sooner, so swings and roundabouts.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

If they were to sell they'll make a huge profit which may have been their plan from the beginning.

Thats the point of a business isn't it?

But the point we are all interested in discussing is how FSG are actually investing in the club and how effective are these.

[El Lobo]

How is it limiting our chances?

We've no less cash than before (if not a little extra), we've better facilities for the players and coaches, we've more fans inside the ground.

What you mean is we aren't seeing 100% of the benefits right now, but then we will see 100% of the benefits much sooner, so swings and roundabouts.

I feel like this was missed as well

Owners Fenway Sports Group will not make money on the £110million loan they provided to Liverpool FC for the building of Anfield’s new Main Stand.

A section of supporters have reacted angrily to details in the club’s recently released accounts which show that there is an interest rate of 1.24% payable on the inter-company loan from the club’s holding company UKSV Holdings Company Limited.


During the building work, which increased Anfield’s capacity to 54,074, the loan had been referred to as being “interest free”, which led to the belief that the money had come from FSG’s cash reserves.

However, it was in fact “premium free”. FSG have a credit facility which they used to secure the loan for £109,904,000 on favourable terms.

As a result the interest of 1.24% - which represents around £1.3million per year - will be paid to the banks rather than into FSG’s pockets.


If Liverpool FC had gone to the banks themselves to secure a £110million loan they would have been looking at paying an interest rate of nearer 5%.

It made sense business wise for FSG to borrow the money with Liverpool saving around £3million per year over the six years it will take to pay back the loan.


http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/loan-new-main-stand-not-12711821

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Thats the point of a business isn't it?

But the point we are all interested in discussing is how FSG are actually investing in the club and how effective are these.

I'd never buy a house from some of the people in here. They wouldn't take care of it or make improvements on it in order to be able to sell it for more than they bought it for. Seems like that line of thinking is immoral or unethical or something.

[Eeyore]

Henderson was there but Kenny generally played him on the right wing.

If I could move the discussion back to a macro level, I think it's hard to argue FSG haven't been good owners. They paid off the debt, expanded the ground almost 20% after years of delays and will be adding more seats, they hired one of the best managers in the world, got the commercial side of the club in order after years of neglect and have spent reasonably well in the transfer market (a £160m net spend in just over six years) while keeping within FFP. The club's increased in value at least partially because it's on an even keel, well run and anyone who might come in doesn't have much in the way of fires to put out. They've made some missteps but have generally stepped back once the fans have made their opinions clear.

I'm aware that's not enough for some people but ignoring the oil and gas sugar daddy clubs, which owners would you prefer? Spurs have made a net profit on their transfers in five of the last six seasons. Arsenal's owners are content to let the club stagnate while they enjoy the profits and jack up the ticket prices every year. The Glazers have used Man United as their own personal piggy bank for most of their tenure. And do I need to get on to Kenwright at Everton, Sullivan and Gold at West Ham, etc.? That's not to say FSG have been perfect because they haven't, but they know how to run a sports club and they've done a lot more good than bad.

Paying off the debt and either building a new Stadium or redeveloping Anfield were part of the conditions of the BARCAP process though. The New York emails show that JWH told other members of FSG that they would be able to buy the club for a steal because the other bidders were factoring in spending around 350m on a new stadium.

So instead of that FSG intended to spend around 100m on just targetting the corporates and were not bothered about the number of ordinery fans. The top end of ambition for the BARCAP process was a debt free Club with a new stadium funded by tge owners. Instead of that we have one redeveloped stand and in the last accounts just over 150m of debt.

Again we have another myth that FSG sorted out the commercial side of the Club. That happened under Hicks and Gillet and in particular Ayre as commercial Director. Of course FSG have continued that to an extent but they haven,t been gamechangers. Under FSG we have managed to pretty much keep pace with our rivals.  It isnt all rosy though in the last accounts our commercial income actually fell compared to the year before. As well as the abject failure to find naming rights sponsors for the new stand.

Now we come to Net spend, from the off FSG made it clear that they wouldnt be using their money to pay for players. They initially put in equity to stabilise the Club but lets be clear here the Net spend is money generated by LFC. To be precise it has come from increased TV money and increased Shirt deals and shirt sponsorship. As I have said they arent specific to lfc indeed at the moment we are slightly behind the curve in terms of commercial deals.  That may change when we renew the shirt deals or as the naming rights have shown it may not.

So if we take it that LFC has largely spent only our money has it been spent well under FSG over the whole of their tenure.  For me its a No. Have we had value for the amount we spend on wages for me thats a No.

So I think it is far from clear that FSG have been good owners. Good in some aspects but poor in other areas for me.

[Jfor83]

Unbelievable.

We are 4th in the league with a genuine chance of finishing 2nd, with the highest scoring team in the league. We reached 2 Cup finals last year and have made significant improvements to that team.

You completely absolve yourself of any perspective when it suits your agenda.

We could also finish 6th or 7th. We've no idea how the season will end.

[Titi Camara]

The following shows LFC PPG in comparison to the league champions, the average of the top four, 4th place and the league average since the year prior to FSG fully taking over.

(As this season isn't over we probably can't read too much in the 2016-17 numbers.)

Besides the 2013-14 season it all looks very status quo, with the last two seasons looking entirely congruous with the season prior to FSG taking over.

[Eeyore]

How is it limiting our chances?

We've no less cash than before (if not a little extra), we've better facilities for the players and coaches, we've more fans inside the ground.

What you mean is we aren't seeing 100% of the benefits right now, but then we will see 100% of the benefits much sooner, so swings and roundabouts.

It is limiting our chances compared to FSG paying for a stand that increases the value of their investment though doesnt it.

[Titi Camara]

But like Craig says, that's VERY different to saying they're raking the cash in which is patently untrue.

Even if we say they've not raked in any cash.....

100% agree

[CraigDS]

It is limiting our chances compared to FSG paying for a stand that increases the value of their investment though doesnt it.

It's limited it compared to them not putting £1bn in cash into the club accounts for transfer spending too. What's your point?

[Johnny Foreigner]

I'd never buy a house from some of the people in here. They wouldn't take care of it or make improvements on it in order to be able to sell it for more than they bought it for. Seems like that line of thinking is immoral or unethical or something.

You could pay your mortgage in five years; and limit the funds you are spending on your kids education
You could pay your debt in 20 years and invest in your kids educaction.

I would do the latter

[El Lobo]

You could pay your mortgage in five years; and limit the funds you are spending on your kids education
You could pay your debt in 20 years and invest in your kids educaction.

I would do the latter

I would gladly pay you Tuesday, for a hamburger today.

[CraigDS]

You could pay your mortgage in five years; and limit the funds you are spending on your kids education
You could pay your debt in 20 years and invest in your kids educaction.

I would do the latter

You could pay your mortgage off whilst you've other income to cover your kids education, then have more in the future to spend.

There are benefits to both paying it quicker and paying it longer, both have good and bad points.