Topic: Entrepreneurs on rawk

[Alan_X]

I write software and websites for a living, and I've been dying for the last 10 years to find something I could actually use to start my own business. Every bloody time I think I've got one though, I find out someone has already done it! (and it's too late for me to do it better)  I guess I've not got the genius inspiration it takes

You're completely missing the point. Being an entrepreneur isn't being an inventor. You can be an entrepreneur setting up a window cleaning company. You don't necessarily need to do anything new, or even do it better. What you need to do is research the market for the things you are good at. Whats the total market you're dealing with? In my business, the total fee income per annum for the UK is around £2.5 billion and the range of projects sizes means that there will always be scope for good quality practices. Basically we need around 0.0002% of the total UK market to be moderately successful. That's a tiny bit more than fuck all.

Our ex-office manager learnt how to make websites while she worked for us and now has her own successful business doing just that. She may not ever be a millionaire but she's her own boss and makes a good living out of it. She now does branding and print design as well.

If you're a web designer - start a web design business. There's work out there. You just need to work out how you're going to get it. What are your contacts? What's your portfolio like?

[zero zero]

Hence my caricatures.

You seem very fond of them. This is real people talking about their own experiences

Regarding entrepreneurship not being difficult - a bold claim and perhaps an unintentionally funny paragraph !

I agree with Alan. Running a business= more money coming in then going out. I found that side tedious so we paid somebody with an aptitude to handle it for us. Planning consisted of saying "This is what we want to read this year. Crunch your numbers and tell us; what and where we need to bill".

[Grand Chilli]

I get what you're saying Alan, but that's not quite where I'd like to be. Maybe entrepeneur isn't really the word for what I want. What I like and I'm good at is writing software (including websites, less so the front-end) so I just want something to tie into that. I could just be a contract developer (a bit like being a plumber or an electrician I guess!), but I'd prefer to run something from the ground up. I'm involved enough in the management strategy at my current work that I'm confident I'd know what I was doing to make a fist of it.

Basically I wish I'd been where I am in life now, 20 years ago and I'm sure I'd be a dot-com millionaire

A good example is one of my hobbies is photography. A few years ago I could have set up some sort of photo sharing/printing website, but now it's not even worth thinking about competing with the big boys who have billions behind them. Nowadays you really need a good/smart idea to get your niche (and then flog it to Google or Facebook), and that's where I fall down!

[wordroam]

You seem very fond of them. This is real people talking about their own experiencesI agree with Alan. Running a business= more money coming in then going out. I found that side tedious so we paid somebody with an aptitude to handle it for us. Planning consisted of saying "This is what we want to read this year. Crunch your numbers and tell us; what and where we need to bill".

The stats don't tend to agree with Alan either though, startups are a risky business.

I think the original debate was about what is an entrepreneur anyway. Is it people who create a new thing or those who  bring it to market ?

Could be the same person of course, often not though and often a tension between the two.

[zero zero]

A good example is one of my hobbies is photography. A few years ago I could have set up some sort of photo sharing/printing website, but now it's not even worth thinking about competing with the big boys who have billions behind them. Nowadays you really need a good/smart idea to get your niche (and then flog it to Google or Facebook), and that's where I fall down!

Yeah, but new sites come up all the time. How old is Pinterest, for instance? Or instagram? There are always new opportunities because of the rate of change in technology and how people interact with the internet.

[zero zero]

The stats don't tend to agree with Alan either though, startups are a risky business.

How is that relevant to this thread which is full of people who have successfully started and run their own businesses?

Crossing the street is risky. So?

[wordroam]

How is that relevant to this thread which is full of people who have successfully started and run their own businesses?

Crossing the street is risky. So?

So is following a line of argument it seems !

Being a (successful) entrepreneur is challenging in my view, supported by the stats on new business failures. If you are one then well done.

If your business failed this does not mean you're an idiot and you've probably learnt valuable lessons that will enable you to dust yourself off and start again successfully.

And I would say it is well worth the gamble and will enrich your life if not your pocket.

[Alan_X]

The stats don't tend to agree with Alan either though, startups are a risky business.

Startups fail. Of course they do. But businesses fail for a lot of reasons throughout their lifetime and the failure to get established is just one of them. So what? You plan for that at the beginning - risk isn't an issue as long as it's managed. When we set up my current business, the three founding partners borrowed enough cash for the first six months working capital. If we hadn't got any work in the business would have 'failed' but we would just have had to find another job and have a slightly higher mortgage. That allowed us the freedom to go out and look for work, which we did by targeting the markets outlined in our business plan.

I think the original debate was about what is an entrepreneur anyway. Is it people who create a new thing or those who  bring it to market ?

Could be the same person of course, often not though and often a tension between the two.

It was someone asking if there were any on here and a few of us offering advice and encouragement to those thinking about it. 

An 'inventor' is someone who creates a new thing. Someone 'bringing something to market' may be an established company. And as I've pointed out, most entrepreneurs are actually working in existing businesses.

Being an entrepreneur is starting a business. That's all.

[Alan_X]

So is following a line of argument it seems !

Being a (successful) entrepreneur is challenging in my view, supported by the stats on new business failures. If you are one then well done.

If your business failed this does not mean you're an idiot and you've probably learnt valuable lessons that will enable you to dust yourself off and start again successfully.

And I would say it is well worth the gamble and will enrich your life if not your pocket.

The reason why startups fail is because there is so much fucking bollocks talked about them in this country. Proper planning, market research, risk analysis, monitoring cash flow, maintaining margins, managing expansion. Those are all basics that if done properly will give any business a far better chance of success. Bollocks about bullshitters, geniuses and the 'tensions' between them will get you nowhere.

Also, base your business in things you know and understand. And if there is a massive gap in the market - it's probably because it's a gap that won't sustain a business.

Most of the life lessons have been learnt by someone else before you. If, for example, the 'life lesson' you learn is that cashflow is crucial then you are an idiot, because the knowledge is already out there and free.

[wordroam]

The reason why startups fail is because there is so much fucking bollocks talked about them in this country. Proper planning, market research, risk analysis, monitoring cash flow, maintaining margins, managing expansion. Those are all basics that if done properly will give any business a far better chance of success. Bollocks about bullshitters, geniuses and the 'tensions' between them will get you nowhere.

Also, base your business in things you know and understand. And if there is a massive gap in the market - it's probably because it's a gap that won't sustain a business.

Most of the life lessons have been learnt by someone else before you. If, for example, the 'life lesson' you learn is that cashflow is crucial then you are an idiot, because the knowledge is already out there and free.

Yes well I'd add to that failing to properly engage  with people is a failing  that can undermine all walks of life.

The bollocks you're talking about is simply a way of describing the daily internal aggravation of  a number of startups I've come across - there is no need to fly off at a tangent with it.

It's interesting - to me anyway - because the internal arguments and tensions within these companies contributes to the debate on what an 'entrepreneur' is anyway.

[Red Genius]

Having set up and ran one company, I've always had that inclination - to have the control of my work life. I agree with everything Alan has explained, the majority of businesses collapse within 3 years due to cashflow... that is in all essence an excuse, as expectation and delivering of projections can only be realistic if you believe and work hard to deliver them.

It's all very well and good forecasting x amount in the next quarter, but you have to deliver, and that comes from effort and ability, lots of folk think being your own boss means lots of time off, picking and choosing what and when to do it.... it's the exact opposite, you're often ran into the ground over evenings and weekends doing bits you simply can't do whilst during working hours as you're delivering the day to day tasks.

Success is not by chance, its by a collaboration of successful components all working within a decisive and accurate project brief.

[CraigDS]

You do have to do it better. Why would I go to you, a new business, if I have a working relationship with my current window cleaner and you don't even do the job better than him?

That's doubly so in internet based businesses. If you're not innovating, then you don't belong. Get out.

So presumably the best window cleaner is employed to clean every window in the world?

[Red Genius]

You do have to do it better. Why would I go to you, a new business, if I have a working relationship with my current window cleaner and you don't even do the job better than him?

That's doubly so in internet based businesses. If you're not innovating, then you don't belong. Get out.

USP doesn't have to be quality though mate, could just be a price point.... which was what (without shoving words down his throat) I think Alan was getting at. You don't buy a Skoda over a Bentley because it's a better car, you buy it based on it's price point and the value you place on it at that price.

Some folk see washing windows as a bit of water and soap... if i offer to do it for a pound less, that might satisfy their desire for the service and have no concerns over the quality, as its water, soap..... on a window.

[Alan_X]

Sorry - still not getting the point of all the techiness!

You clearly aren't. Perhaps you should take a few moments to think about it?

[zero zero]

Yes well I'd add to that failing to properly engage  with people is a failing  that can undermine all walks of life.

You're doing a dreadful job of it. Are you an entrepreneur - Y/N?

It's interesting - to me anyway - because the internal arguments and tensions within these companies contributes to the debate on what an 'entrepreneur' is anyway.

What internal arguments and tensions? We infused our company with the radical idea that we were all working together toward a common goal.

[Alan_X]

You do have to do it better. Why would I go to you, a new business, if I have a working relationship with my current window cleaner and you don't even do the job better than him?

That's doubly so in internet based businesses. If you're not innovating, then you don't belong. Get out.

No you don't. You have to do it as well. My mate didn't do transport and removals any better than any of his competitors. He just chose a name that started with 'A so he was the first that people came to in teh phone book. Beyond that, if the market is big enough, and you have set up properly, then work will start to come your way. IN my business it's all about contacts, so the first six months was about making calls and having coffee or lunch with people.

If I was setting up a window cleaning business I'd have a look at the new estates going up in my area for example. I'd do a bit of research on who's doing the rounds currently - is anyone retiring.? Could you buy someone out and consolidate a couple of rounds? The big money is probably not just the domestic work but commercial, town centre and office stuff. I'd make sure I have the up to date equipment (pole cleaners etc) work out what your margins are and make a few visits.

As I've said, if you take the best advice then you'd already know the business to some extent.

I think the whole innovation thing is the biggest barrier to people going into business for themselves. There are thousands of web design companies who are simply doing web design well. When I contact a web design company, I want them to design my website - I don't want them having a wank on some innovative shite that may or may not work at my expense. When you try out a new chip shop - do you want them to be using liquid nitrogen to make the chips or just make good fish and chips?

[Alan_X]

So presumably the best window cleaner is employed to clean every window in the world?

In a nutshell.

One really good bit of advice I got was that most clients assume that architects can design. That's a given. What they want is someone they can get along with, and someone who understands their needs. I don't need to be the best, or the most innovative. Just be a good fit and have the capacity at the right time.

[Red Genius]

In a nutshell.

One really good bit of advice I got was that most clients assume that architects can design. That's a given. What they want is someone they can get along with, and someone who understands their needs. I don't need to be the best, or the most innovative. Just be a good fit and have the capacity at the right time.

I can support this observation.... people buy people, it's not rocket science really, you engage in a relationship to achieve an outcome, you would in all logic choose a person you feel can not only do the job, but connect with.... somebody who listens and also honestly challenges you with situations you may not have considered.

Wholly agree Allan.

[Alan_X]

The bollocks you're talking about is simply a way of describing the daily internal aggravation of  a number of startups I've come across - there is no need to fly off at a tangent with it.

No - using anecdote instead the vast wealth of available research and advice about business startups is the tangent. If a company is having daily internal aggravation then they are - no offence - a shit company with shit management and poor internal mechanisms for dealing with it. We had a problem with one of the original partners not fitting in so we bought him out at the earliest opportunity. We've had problems with people 'at the coal face' so we dealt with those issues in a number of different ways and moved on with a team that works together.

As zero zero put it: "What internal arguments and tensions? We infused our company with the radical idea that we were all working together toward a common goal."

[Alan_X]

I can support this observation.... people buy people, it's not rocket science really, you engage in a relationship to achieve an outcome, you would in all logic choose a person you feel can not only do the job, but connect with.... somebody who listens and also honestly challenges you with situations you may not have considered.

Wholly agree Allan.

For anyone interested in how businesses work, 'Understanding Organisations' by Charles Handy is a great starting point. One of the phrases that always stuck with me was that business is a series of conversations.

Of course, not all business is face to face, and price is always a factor, but even remotely the 'tone of voice' of a website or other business documents will do the same job.

[Red Genius]

but even remotely the 'tone of voice' of a website or other business documents will do the same job.

Body language controls the overwhelming aspect in sales, then words and tone, you're observation just goes to show how the least significant observation can become the most recognisable... All behaviours are important.

[paddysour]

What do you guys think about starting a business as a hobby first?

[CraigDS]

What do you guys think about starting a business as a hobby first?

You mean starting one based on a hobby you have, or starting one as a hobby?

If the former then I personally like that. When working for yourself you need to be motivated to put the hours in, and if you're doing something you like then it makes it more likely you'll do that.

[CraigDS]

The best cleaner, no, and there are plenty of regional jobs to go around obviously. But if you're looking at internet based businesses, then you have to bring something fresh. Even if you had an algorithm as good as Google's, you'd never take them on, because of name recognition and people's habits.

But agree that you can make a nice living in a trade, sure! Are you ever getting rich? Nope, but you can make a living.

This isn't that true either though.

Google started at a time when Yahoo! was an absolute monster, so your own example shows that you can come into a market as a new start up and compete.

There are many examples of that too.

[Alan_X]

What do you guys think about starting a business as a hobby first?

It depends. Most hobbies are hobbies because they don't make money. The time invested in hobby activities is usually too great for them to become a real business. The money in hobbies is selling supplies to hobbyists.

If you think you might want to get into business then do all the research and planning first. If you don't want to give up your day job then do it as a part time business in your spare time. Don't treat it as a hobby.

[CraigDS]

Google had a better product though! That's the point. If they had a product that was on a similar level to Yahoo!, they would not be as successful.

You think they had a better product, given search is based on having a huge amount of crawled data, as a new start up than the likes of a 4+ year old Yahoo, 3+ year old Ask, and a few others?

They certainly had the idea of a better product, but it took a while before they did, and they had some big big players to compete with.

[CHOPPER]

It depends. Most hobbies are hobbies because they don't make money. The time invested in hobby activities is usually too great for them to become a real business. The money in hobbies is selling supplies to hobbyists.

If you think you might want to get into business then do all the research and planning first. If you don't want to give up your day job then do it as a part time business in your spare time. Don't treat it as a hobby.......

When I die, I'l think of you for a mo, Al

[Alan_X]

When I die, I'l think of you for a mo, Al

Cheers mate.

[AndyInVA]

What do you guys think about starting a business as a hobby first?

Personally I think its a great idea

To my mind it allows you to go through the motions without having burnt your bridges with your full time job

I would re-phrase it as part time though and not as a hobby

Doing a side job allows you to understand the basics of business. Obtaining clients, negotiating a sale, delivering a product and then collecting the money and some rudimentary accounting to see what you made. If you can get some experience doing the above before doing it for real then so much the better.

Of course the best way to see if you can do it, is to work for someone else in the same job. Which is I think what most business guys do. I certainly did as a design build contractor and I would assume Alan did as an architect

working for someone else allows you to know how good you are at the work, you can see if you can develop your own clients and then deliver the work

I feel a lot of you are hung up developing a product for market. This is a somewhat specialized career in itself as an inventor in my opinion and requires a truly different mind set

I think most people work for someone else in the same field, then quit and hope the clients you have developed go with you.

[AndyInVA]

I think may start ups can do well as when they set up they have zero other clients and so they can service a few clients to a higher standard than a larger company as they stay focussed

but this means the start up has to work their ass off

which I think most committed entrepreneurs do

I personally feel there are three traits you need to be a success (or give yourself a fighting chance anyway)

1. you absolutely have to be good at your job
2. you need to be enough of a people person to socialize and be liked by the people you meet
3. you have to be prepared to work extremely hard

[Latenight Surfer]

I am not a civil engineer or an architect but I have a brand new building design with me and would like to know what I need to do in order to be heard?

To be more clear what is the procedure for developing the design into an executable project?

[AndyInVA]

I'm a design and build professional with my own company. I'm not sure I understand what you have in mind. PM me if you like.

[Alan_X]

I am not a civil engineer or an architect but I have a brand new building design with me and would like to know what I need to do in order to be heard?

To be more clear what is the procedure for developing the design into an executable project?

As above - I have no idea what you mean. Is it a construction method? What country are we talking about as that has a huge impact on all sorts of things including earthquake resistance, heating or cooling, level of technical expertise available? A building design for what - residential, industrial, school, hospital, factory?...

Drop me a PM if you want a bit of guidance - there are new building designs and construction techniques being developed all the time. If you're night in the industry it's quite likely that what you think is 'new' has already been considered in some form.

Construction can be a very litigious business because buildings themselves and construction can cause injury and death. Ground breaking building designs also are more prone to failure. If it's your design you'll need to take out insurance cover in case something goes wrong during construction or when your building design is being used.

As a basic piece of advice, draft a confidentiality agreement and get anyone to sign up to it before you show them anything. That includes me.  As I said, it's probably been thought of before but if it hasn't you want to keep it under control.

Also I'd suggest you do a bit of reading on the difference between a design that can be copyrighted or in some cases registered to prevent copying and an invention or process that can be patented.

The latter has even higher standards of care and much higher insurance costs.

[Latenight Surfer]

The design is for a residential building. I did check for similar designs as you mentioned but I couldn't find any but I am keeping my eyes open.

Thanks to both of you for offering help will get back with some more details for a better understanding.

[AndyInVA]

Do you just have a floor plan ? Or something new and innovative as far as green technology is concerned ?

[RedEire]

Hi all, just looking for tips or advice on starting up my own little business adventure.

It's nothing big or fancy but it's window cleaning I'm getting into, my girlfriends dad is at it 14-16years up in Belfast and has really got into my head about starting it up down South using the same system he uses, it's called "the reach and wash system" using purified water with water fed poles that reach 3story buildings, it's a very quick system where the water dries in itself and leaves no water marks. He averages about 80 houses a day with him and the other two lads that work for him and makes his living in 3 days and has 4 days off.

Anyways, is there anybody on here that's doing this themselves? Or anybody have any advice on what to do and what not to do when starting out on ur own? My girlfriends dad has given me advice and that but it would be nice to try get any other advice off another voice on when setting up your own company?

My background is, I'm a carpenter by trade, iv been maintenance staff in a private hospital the last 4-5 years, iv dropped myself onto a 3day week with the hospital in order to have 3days  to myself to get this up and running. The reason I mentioned my background is I'm sort of thinking long term to think about doing maintenance/cleaning and try get in with a few big local companies/property agents with my own staff.
Again any advice would be great if anybody Is in this line of work?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Hi all, just looking for tips or advice on starting up my own little business adventure.

It's nothing big or fancy but it's window cleaning I'm getting into, my girlfriends dad is at it 14-16years up in Belfast and has really got into my head about starting it up down South using the same system he uses, it's called "the reach and wash system" using purified water with water fed poles that reach 3story buildings, it's a very quick system where the water dries in itself and leaves no water marks. He averages about 80 houses a day with him and the other two lads that work for him and makes his living in 3 days and has 4 days off.

Anyways, is there anybody on here that's doing this themselves? Or anybody have any advice on what to do and what not to do when starting out on ur own? My girlfriends dad has given me advice and that but it would be nice to try get any other advice off another voice on when setting up your own company?

My background is, I'm a carpenter by trade, iv been maintenance staff in a private hospital the last 4-5 years, iv dropped myself onto a 3day week with the hospital in order to have 3days  to myself to get this up and running. The reason I mentioned my background is I'm sort of thinking long term to think about doing maintenance/cleaning and try get in with a few big local companies/property agents with my own staff.
Again any advice would be great if anybody Is in this line of work?

I'm not remotely in that line of work, but the advice I'd offer applies to all small business start ups. Research your market - that is, the market locally where you intend to start business. Your girlfriend's dad has 16 years of custom built up in his area, and no doubt, an enormous amount of goodwill from regular customers which will translate into recommendations.

You will be starting in an area where you are unknown (as a window cleaner) and - if the territory is remotely viable in sustaining a business - will already be heavily serviced by existing businesses. What will you be able to offer that they do not? Most customers are notoriously fond of the habitual - they don't change easily unless they have been royally hacked off recently by their current service. How are you going to break into this existing relationship?

It will probably take you a minimum of six months - probably two to three years - to establish as a new entrant in the market with a sufficient customer base to reliably predict your revenue. Can your finances stand such a period of time with low to variable income?

Don't use your girlfriend's dad's business as guide to what is possible now. Ask him how astonishingly hard he had to work at first to establish himself. That's not to say it can't be done again, and by you - but don't be misled by the work '3 days, 4 days off' situation. In the first three years of your business, you'll be lucky to have a single day's holiday (maybe Christmas!)

Research the market. Find out exactly what customers want, why they may be disenchanted by their existing service. Know exactly who the competition is, what they offer, their prices, their strengths and weakness. Know the same about your prospective business. Try and predict what will happen if you turn up - a price war, reputation sabotage (don't be innocent, it happens) yet another new entrant using the opportunity to start up themselves?

If all this scares you, good. Fear sharpens the wits, reduces the chances of mistakes. However, if it also fills you with energy, a desire to beat the challenge, to be the best at what you want to do, then, stout fella, give it right good go and devil take the hindmost.

[Claire.]

Don't window cleaning rounds often get sold on?

Ours aren't very good, but there's not what you'd call options.

[RedEire]

Iv done research before committing to buying all the system and there is nobody in my area with the same said system. The advantage with my system is,

-it's a really quick system with purified water that dries itself leaving no streaks or water marks on windows
-it washes the window frames aswel as the glass
-no ladders (less risk) involved as it's a waterfed carbon fibre telescopic pole that extends up to 25ft+
-My prices are ALOT cheaper than window cleaners with normal buckets of water with washing up liquid mainly because I can get a house cleaned in 10mins or so.
-iv a 350litre tank of my own purified water so when/if the water charges come in customers don't have to worry cause I bring my own water.

Iv not seen any window cleaner vans around at all and a lot of people so far say they don't know of any window cleaners that do domestic window cleaning.
At the moment I'm working 6 days a week between 3days doing the windows and 3days in the hospital doing maintenance and was working Christmas Eve and New Year's Day this year too so it's no problem,I'm gonna give it everything to get it up and running full time.

Was just seeing was there anybody else on here doing similar to have advice from another voice as such, or any advice I can get on any aspect of starting up a business, thanks for the reply mate 

[RedEire]

Don't window cleaning rounds often get sold on?

Ours aren't very good, but there's not what you'd call options.

ya will see rounds for sale alright,but it's always small rounds because a company might have too many houses on the books and are struggling to get them all done, my girlfriend dad sold part of his run a few years ago because it was a bit out of the way for him and he had got more houses closer to him so he sold that part of his run off for good money.