Topic: Jesús Joaquín Fernández Sáez de la Torre (Suso)

[johnhouldinglfc]

Not having a go at Suso. Were we to expect less from him playing USA U20? thought it was already agreed that at similar level (U21 football) he is very good.
What he needs is senior football against "men". Manchester Utd and Arsenal did that with with their promising midfielders, Cleverly and Sir Wilshire, and that did loads of good.

U20 v U21 is a big gap at international level - usually the U21 squads are on average 3 years older than U20 squads. Calling it U21 football is seriously inaccurate naming.

[apocalypse]

U20 v U21 is a big gap at international level - usually the U21 squads are on average 3 years older than U20 squads. Calling it U21 football is seriously inaccurate naming.

U21 football for the club, not international. I didn't want to phrase it this way but.. I highly doubt the USA U20 side is better than any top flight English club U21 side so I would expect Suso to "run the show"

[Yorkykopite]

Not having a go at Suso. Were we to expect less from him playing USA U20? thought it was already agreed that at similar level (U21 football) he is very good.
What he needs is senior football against "men". Manchester Utd and Arsenal did that with with their promising midfielders, Cleverly and Sir Wilshire, and that did loads of good.

But would you say the same for Henderson and Shelvey in the U-21s. Is that a waste of time too? I don't think so. Both those players have vastly more first-team experience than Suso yet no one complains that they aren't playing against "men" in the U-21s. Indeed, one might say, that compared with Suso they struggled against very talented "boys".

Suso's doing all right. More than all right. 

[DanA]

U21 football for the club, not international. I didn't want to phrase it this way but.. I highly doubt the USA U20 side is better than any top flight English club U21 side so I would expect Suso to "run the show"

Maybe not I suppose we'll see how he goes against France. He'll be coming up against the likes of Pogba in midfield and Digne at LB.

[apocalypse]

But would you say the same for Henderson and Shelvey in the U-21s. Is that a waste of time too? I don't think so. Both those players have vastly more first-team experience than Suso yet no one complains that they aren't playing against "men" in the U-21s. Indeed, one might say, that compared with Suso they struggled against very talented "boys".

Suso's doing all right. More than all right.

There seems to be a bit of confusion about my argument. I wasn't knocking the U20 championship, U21 club football or Suso's level, merely making a case for him needing regular, competitive football at a higher level ie. senior level.

Both Henderson and Shelvey are too good for U21 (club, not international) football so if they were to play at that level I'd expect them to do really well like Suso (as the vast majority say he is doing). Suso (and Shelvey, who I think gets unfair criticism) would do well with playing consistently at a higher level to continue their development. A competitive Championship team would be my choice for Suso and any prem team that will give 15+ starts for Shelvey     

[johnhouldinglfc]

U21 football for the club, not international. I didn't want to phrase it this way but.. I highly doubt the USA U20 side is better than any top flight English club U21 side so I would expect Suso to "run the show"

My bad. .

Honestly it was a strange sort of match - the early goal by the Spanish was a massive factor and also the commentators mentioned the pitch-side temperature was 27 degrees but I think the US U20s would probably do ok against a fair few sides in the reserve sides in the U21 league. The quality of the weaker teams (we were only playing against the top 8 teams for the 2nd half of the season) is really not all that great. The US keeper has 13 appearances for the Southampton reserve team this season.

I'd be reluctant to judge the Yanks solely on the basis of the game last night. They beat Portugal's U20 side 3-1 in their previous game.

Bijev would have probably been playing with them if he hadn't opted for Bulgaria.

I would definitely agree with the central point that Suso needs to be playing at a more competitive level than reserve football as I would rate the overall competitiveness of the reserve league to be on a par with Division One football, and that's before you look at the miserable number of games [26 games over the course of a season]

[modokay]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/XRmJ4pKVg80?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/XRmJ4pKVg80?fs=1</a>

He's got the moves like Xabi, he's got the moves like Xabi
He's got mooooooooooooves like Xabi!!

[liverpooll]

What about the other players in Spain U20s. Are they getting regular 1st football, are they on loans? Maybe, we need to get some comparative evidence.

[choi]

All players that started (apart from Derik) have had first team football this season. That's what the commentator said anyway.

[Cpt_Reina]

What about the other players in Spain U20s. Are they getting regular 1st football, are they on loans? Maybe, we need to get some comparative evidence.

Prepare yourself for a very original and in no way tedious conversation on 'B' teams and the application thereof.

[loial009]

It seems like the Suso has been pushed further down the pecking order by the arrival of Alberto. Anyone know why Alberto isnt involved with the u20s? It seems like suso is rated ahead of him in the Spain setup, although i know he is used in a deeper position for them. Maybe Brendan sees Suso playing further back as a understudy to Gerrard this season...

[johnhouldinglfc]

What about the other players in Spain U20s. Are they getting regular 1st football, are they on loans? Maybe, we need to get some comparative evidence.

Just after having a quick look at wikipedia (link below) I would say Suso's 20 appearances for the first team is among the highest in the squad in terms of first team appearances.

However pretty much all of the squad seem to have made their first team debut.

A key factor is what clubs they are at - the lads at Real and Barca are in a different boat to the lads at smaller clubs.

However in terms of number of games/overall minutes played against men, I would say that Suso is towards the back of the pack (as a result of the B team system) Some of the squad have a serious amount of minutes playing in their club's B teams [Jese has 80 appearances for Real Madrid B ; Delefou 68 appearances for Barcelona B]

An interesting data point/comparison is Denis Suarez at City who has 2 appearances for City over the last 2 years plus reserve football.

It would be very interesting to do a comparison on the number of minutes of football played by the Spanish U20 squad versus the English squad and at what levels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_national_under-20_football_team

[johnhouldinglfc]

It seems like the Suso has been pushed further down the pecking order by the arrival of Alberto. Anyone know why Alberto isnt involved with the u20s? It seems like suso is rated ahead of him in the Spain setup, although i know he is used in a deeper position for them. Maybe Brendan sees Suso playing further back as a understudy to Gerrard this season...

Alberto is overage.

[The Infamous_LFC]

Would love if he played center mid for Liverpool at some point his agility,technique and pace would be a asset. I know that video was only against the USA under 20's but it filled me with promise & confirmed the need to play Suso through the middle.

[apocalypse]

Note that Real Madrid B and Barcelona B play in the Spanish equivalent to the Championship. They are playing against "men" who are competing to get into La Liga.

[john_mac]

What's that Alex Inglethorpe fella doing talking about sending some of our young players out on loan? What does he know?

But isn't that the point, the people who do know are in a position to weigh it up & look at the available opportunities and likely experiences then take a call on whether a player is in position to develop best in Kirkby, Melwood or somewhere else at any given point in time.

It is all about assessing what is right for the club and the individual. Sorry but most in here are juts full of generalisations, tehy are pissing in teh wind and don't have a clue what is right or wrong for a particular players development in teh short or long term, but like to sound like footy managers.

I've never said that loans are wrong for everyone at every point, that would be ridicluous, I'm sorry but every thread about every young player who is not in the team has people chipping in with obligatory, they should be loaned to a football playing club from the obligatory football manager type.

Come on be honest, the same of the rest of us, you haven't a fucken clue what is right for any player at any given point, so why bother?

[nyrrard]

He is superb.
Can definitly see him in the "Gerrard-position" in the coming years.
Insane vision

[modokay]

Suso was great against Team USA, but to be fair they gave him a lot of space and time on the ball.
We know how Suso can hurt teams.

[thedunnyman]

That U20 video reminds me of Coutinho a bit. Excellent turning of the ball, and very good touch.

Yes it is U20 and I'm not sure of the competition level, but I'd imagine it is not overly superb.
Thing is, no how good the opposition is - you still gotta turn up!

Very excited to see him mature

[iiqae]

spain v ghana in 30ish minutes.

http://firstrowus.eu/watch/192688/1/watch-spain-vs-ghana,-u20---wct-2013.html

[cyador]

Suso seems to have been made captain as well. Wonder where he'll start today, cm hopefully.

[john_mac]

Skippering Spain, think he could use a loan spell at Milton Keynes

[Fordy]

Note that Real Madrid B and Barcelona B play in the Spanish equivalent to the Championship. They are playing against "men" who are competing to get into La Liga.

Totally disagree. For me Spanish B league is Div 1 standards

[SlowRap]

He looks to be playing the Xabi role, pulling the strings from the middle.

[b_joseph]

Totally disagree. For me Spanish B league is Div 1 standards

If that was the case, promoted teams would never stay up in La Liga. If we agree that La Liga is better than the Premier league and Championships teams manage to stay up in the premier league.

Spain havent quite clicked like they did vs USA, yet.

[Nessy76]

If that was the case, promoted teams would never stay up in La Liga. If we agree that La Liga is better than the Premier league and Championships teams manage to stay up in the premier league.

Spain havent quite clicked like they did vs USA, yet.

Not a chance. The top clubs might be better than their Premier League counterparts, but get halfway down the table and you'll see a huge drop-off in quality. Newly promoted Premier League clubs have budgets that even Champions League clubs in Spain (aside from the big 2) would envy.

[turambar]

Bit disappointed with his performance tonight.Was boss in the USA game going by the compilation, but compilations show only the parts when he is on the ball.No complains when he is on the ball.But think he needs to work a bit more off it.Didn't press well, also thought there was a bit lack of mobility.Still very young and insanely talented.As I said, different class when he has the ball.

[Xxavi]

Suso, IMO, was better than he was vs US. He was pretty good, but at times, you could see that he is still an U20 player. To be a Liverpool first team player, he has to really make an impact and stand out at this level. He needs to continue improving, but game time will certainly help.

[jooneyisdagod]

Any highlights packages floating around ?  Mostar ?

[Mr_Morosoph]

Any highlights packages floating around ?  Mostar ?

Audio/Video thread...

[Cpt_Reina]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/jxvau-hIHE0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/jxvau-hIHE0</a>

You can see why you'd want him in a CM position based on the above, the way he's abe to turn on the ball in the middle of the park, see the space in front of him and them drive in to it is something we really lack. It's also incredibly hard to do.

We know from there he can split a defence if he has the options.

Also think he shows a real ability to read the play, nips in and steals the ball regularly (this isnt all based on this one game either).

Throw in the way he uses his body and you have a lot of what you need for a very talented, very versitle midfielder. Reminds me a lot of Dembele if anyone.

Another player who was pushed in to an advanced position despite having a clear lack of offensive end produt.

[DanA]

I think the only argument against Suso in the midfield is his defensive contribution. He needs to get better with it, a lot better but if can he could really be a Modric style playmaker in the center and extremely valuable player to have.

[Cpt_Reina]

I think the only argument against Suso in the midfield is his defensive contribution. He needs to get better with it, a lot better but if can he could really be a Modric style playmaker in the center and extremely valuable player to have.

I really dont think his defensive contributions are ever that bad when he plays there though.

He's perhaps better when he behind the ball, as you can sometime question his desire to chase it back. But he doesnt ever want for effort or application nowadays.

Ive no issues at all with his ability to handle the rough and tumble either. He seems to quite enjoy it if anything. Much stronger than he looks, and unlike a lot of players he knows how to use his body.

[iiqae]

You can see why you'd want him in a CM position based on the above, the way he's abe to turn on the ball in the middle of the park, see the space in front of him and them drive in to it is something we really lack. It's also incredibly hard to do.

We know from there he can split a defence if he has the options.

Also think he shows a real ability to read the play, nips in and steals the ball regularly (this isnt all based on this one game either).

Throw in the way he uses his body and you have a lot of what you need for a very talented, very versitle midfielder. Reminds me a lot of Dembele if anyone.

Another player who was pushed in to an advanced position despite having a clear lack of offensive end produt.

i watched the the game against ghana, and i must say that compilation is a bit deceiving with the bit you described about his ability to break up attacks.

he did have his moments throughout the game in that regard, one of them led to the 1v1 he created for gerard, but the ghanaians generally got behind him quite a bit. a more clinical side would have made spain pay. of course, it's fair to point out that oliver (arguably man of the match) and saul (i believe) played a role in this as well.

i have very few doubts about suso as a creative center mid who will be able to dictate play through his superb dribbling, shielding, vision and passing. yet, if the likes of you and juan are right about his future lying further back, then it will be that much more vital for him to show improved defensive contributions in other areas besides shielding.

in that sense, my doubts also lie with his ability to be a defensive presence in the same way that xabi alonso is for real madrid. for such a relatively sluggish player, alonso's ability to anticipate incoming attacks is almost unrivaled. it is the area that i hope to see the most marked improvement in his game. suso has a long way to go in that respect, and yesterday's match was certainly a reminder of that, but his class is undeniable in so many other areas, that it is easy to forget. i find myself thinking that for all of his attributes, he makes unwise decisions more often than i'd like, but they end up coming off because he is that talented.

hell of a player in there. no denying that.
worth remembering that he is 19 though.

[DanA]

I think Suso's defensive contribution comes in fits and spurts. They'll be a period where he's clearly focusing on it and he looks good then a few months later he'll be doing his best Charlie Adam impression.

[rocco]

Stating the obvious but Suso needs regular game time and needs to be loaned out to the right club

[jooneyisdagod]

I think Suso's defensive contribution comes in fits and spurts. They'll be a period where he's clearly focusing on it and he looks good then a few months later he'll be doing his best Charlie Adam impression.

Come on mate. Suso has way more natural ability than Charlie Adam could ever dream of and I actually liked him.  Not good enough for us but he wasn't a bad player at all.

[DanA]

Come on mate. Suso has way more natural ability than Charlie Adam could ever dream of and I actually liked him.  Not good enough for us but he wasn't a bad player at all.

Charlie Adam didn't track back well enough. I wrote nothing about ability natural or otherwise or quality of play, i'm talking only about defensive workrate. Ozil doesn't track back too well either and I'd hardly call him a shit player.

[justsean]

Anyone remember his ridiculous skills versus Stoke at home this season?

Sort of like Cantona from MOTD intro type stuff from back in the day.

Being searching for a GIF or highlight of that for ages and can't find it.

Technically, for this lad, the sky's the limit. So so much potential. Hope he is aggressive, hungry and grounded enough to fulfill it.

[ConqueredAllOfEurope]

Out of all the youngsters we have in our academy (Sterling, Coady, Wisdom, Ibe etc...) Suso is the one I am most excited about. His technique is amazing. The way he dribbles with the ball kind of reminds me of Iniesta in the way that he suddenly shifts one way and uses his acceleration to go past player and his close control whilst dribbling is fantastic. The way he passes the ball is just as good, like other have said, a bit like Xabi.

I know comparing youngsters to older players is frowned upon at RAWK, as everyone is their own player, but this lad just reminds me of them