Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1185188 times)

Offline abhred

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,566
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8480 on: October 20, 2009, 05:49:31 pm »
Haven't seen a game with Everton this season, but  you're talking about Rodwell, right?

Rodwell would be it.

Ridiculous we never manage to get hold of such young local talent.
It wouldn't be Liverpool if we didn't do it the hard way... ask Gareth Southgate.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,603
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8481 on: October 20, 2009, 05:54:10 pm »
Ridiculous we never manage to get hold of such young local talent.

To be honest I would question our ability to spot good young players generally.

Fair play, Insua has done well and so has Lucas, although I really saw Lucas as a player signed especially for the first team squad as he was at that stage of his development.

After that? Well considering the turnaround of players we have had, its pretty disappointing.

Offline Juan Loco

  • down in Acapulco. LIkes 'em salty and succulent, the wee lambies!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,902
  • We've got our valuation and we're sticking to it
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8482 on: October 20, 2009, 05:55:59 pm »
Haven't seen a game with Everton this season, but  you're talking about Rodwell, right?

That's the one. The kid looks a class act... Fucking shame that you know he'll never play for Liverpool.
"It's the football philosophy that counts, not the system."

A fully signed-up member of SPAS
The Stuart Pearce Apologist Society

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8483 on: October 20, 2009, 06:12:31 pm »
I'm not convinced about Turner yet but Shawcross looks good. Doesn't lose many headers, is English, good on the ball and is a threat at set pieces. Ticks a lot of boxes. Will be interesting if we sign anybody In Jan but still think we need a striker for times when Torres is injured. Bent at £10 would of done for me. I know people weren't keen on him in the summer, but he scores goals wherever he's been including a really bad Charlton team where he got 20 odd.

I think you're right about Shawcross. I've liked Bent for a few years and have a bet with a mate at work that he'll score more than Defoe this season. At the start of the season I fancied a bet on him as the top scoring Englishman this season, shame the odds have dropped a fair bit now. I think that ship has sailed now though, he clearly likes playing regularly at Sunderland.


Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Online Roger Federer

  • Christ imagine naming yourself after Roger Federer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,424
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8484 on: October 20, 2009, 06:16:50 pm »
That's the one. The kid looks a class act... Fucking shame that you know he'll never play for Liverpool.
Will look out for him then, love watching that type of player (like Guardiola, Xabi, Redondo). Didn't know he was a Liverpoolfan, it's indeed a fucking shame such a talent (which by the sound of it, he is) isn't coming through our acadamy then.

Offline abhred

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,566
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8485 on: October 20, 2009, 09:36:47 pm »
Shocking. We barely touched the ball 2nd half.

This is our worst period since 1987.
It wouldn't be Liverpool if we didn't do it the hard way... ask Gareth Southgate.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,603
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8486 on: October 20, 2009, 10:01:24 pm »
We should suspend this thread until we start resembling some sort of a good Footballing side.

Every decent/good/very good team we have played this season, all the way from pre-season, we have lost to.

Awful. Just truly awful. Things don't look good for everyone involved.

Offline BazC

  • ...is as good as Van Basten
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 29,562
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8487 on: October 20, 2009, 10:07:41 pm »
I don't know where to begin. Kelly plays a blinder and sets 2 players up with brilliant chances and they fuck it up somehow.

Our defence gets more and more shambolic by the game.

How I wish we had top replacements for Carra/Skrtel and Lucas in the first team. Lucas isn't doing bad (well, that 2nd goal and his covering was suspect to say the least) but he's not doing much right in my view- for whatever reason you want to give (if you think he's not good or if you think the other players don't pass to him- it doesn't matter). Carra and Skrtel. Well no need to say anything about their performances this season. It does seem a bit wrong to stick Lucas on the level of our defenders, but it's a key area that's not contributing to the team apart from a good tackle and pass percentages. Well percentages never won us games (look at Gerrard's pass percentages for example). And we need to win games.

The longer we keep the defence as it is, the longer we'll go on playing shite and losing points. Get Agger and Kyrgiakos in there. It's not going to be any worse than our current lot- it can't be. What it is it now, 6 losses in 13 games or something? We're meant to be winning trophies here...

Just a horrible, horrible period for us and I'm afraid it's likely to fuck our whole season up.

And the wait on Aquilani, Torres and Gerrard to get fit and playing to a high level isn't even over yet.

Ah well, Man U next. Fucks sake. I have no confidence in our defence. Reina obviously has even less confidence than me (there's no way he'd have come out for the 1st goal from the corner and tried punching it away had he not seen Lyon- and every single other team we've played this season- win most of their headers coming into the box).

Overreaction? Not in my opinion. We're saying the same things week in week out. Even when we've won our games this season we've had to pull up our defenders for their shoddy defending (those 3-2 games...)

When will Rafa finally do what needs to be done?

We should suspend this thread until we start resembling some sort of a good Footballing side.

Every decent/good/very good team we have played this season, all the way from pre-season, we have lost to.

Awful. Just truly awful. Things don't look good for everyone involved.

There's an idea. Almost seems to be wrong posting in a thread which hoped to document our rise to a top level of football as one of its objectives and we're turning in gutless performances week in week out.
“This place will become a bastion of invincibility and you are very lucky young man to be here. They will all come here and be beaten son”

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,603
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8488 on: October 20, 2009, 10:26:05 pm »
The attitude has to be questioned on how we can look such a gutless, spineless and weak side.

What the hell has happened in pre-season and over the summer? Has someone put something in the water? All the way from players leaving, players wanting to leave, players not happy about not playing, the team needing group meetings to 'get things off their chest' and the wave of negativity and 'realism' that hit us prior to the Spurs game.

Its beyond a football issue now. There is no way that a defense which has been drilled by a manager obsessed by details can shit themselves everytime the opposition attacks. There is no way that the supposed best defensive midfielder in the world and a brazilian international can get out battled and out played. There is no way that our attack can look so toothless against the likes of Sunderland who let in 2 goals against Wolves and against Lyon who had no centre backs for most of the game.

Since I have been watching Liverpool one of the things I have prided our teams on is our toughness and our solidity, especially defensively. Now, that has all but disappeared.

Its interesting how during times of need, the players and people of real character come to the fore. Reina, Johnson (at times), Benayoun, Gerrard and Torres have been the only players who have shown some sort of drive. Carragher, Skrtel, Mascherano, Lucas, Kuyt, Riera and Babel have all struggled and badly.

I don't know what can be done. Even with all our players to come back, we are still faced with the same defenders and central midfielders, bar an injury prone Italian who hasn't played in months and has still to play a reserve game for us.

Anyone got a flare gun? I was hoping to send it out in the general direction of Sami Hyypia, Didi Hamann and Xabi Alonso.

Offline Clayton Moore rides again ©

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • docendo discimus
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8489 on: October 20, 2009, 10:26:22 pm »
This whole thread is a load of petentious bollocks - Its what has always been done - its what Shanks did and only X-box/Playstation cowboys find anything new in the "onwards and upwards" bits it occasionally contains
Stupidity is the basic building block of the universe.

Journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read

Offline Juan Loco

  • down in Acapulco. LIkes 'em salty and succulent, the wee lambies!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,902
  • We've got our valuation and we're sticking to it
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8490 on: October 20, 2009, 10:28:08 pm »
Jamie Carragher is shot to shit.

I'll say it in here to avoid the vitriol of the vast majority who refuse to accept it or simply can't take criticism of him, but he is gone. Only he and Pepe Reina are the constants in that piss poor defence and if anyone thinks Reina is doing anything other than covering for the liabilities in front of him then they should go fuck off and kill themselves.

Switched off again for that 2nd. Ok, the move its self stems from a break down in midfield as we over-commit, but regardless, he is paying little or no attention to the scorer. I know the apologists will be out in force about how he was playing a position he doesn't like at the time, but he was practically in the 6 yard box. Right back had fuck all to do with it. He's just gone.

Oh, and I'll fucking scream if anyone utters that bollocks about his communication? Communifuckingcation!? I felt like I was watching fucking Newcastle with that bollocks between him and Reina 2nd half.

He is hardly alone in playing shit at present, but then he's been off form for ages and it's in defence where we've struggled. 3 clean sheets in 12 games isn't it? Oh yeah, his form is right around the corner...


On the plus side, Kelly is a player and so is N'gog. Oh, and I thought Agger did reasonably well but was left stark naked for their winner.
"It's the football philosophy that counts, not the system."

A fully signed-up member of SPAS
The Stuart Pearce Apologist Society

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,603
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8491 on: October 20, 2009, 10:56:33 pm »
Did you think Ngog had a great game? I mean he didn't play bad but he wasn't exactly that great either. He would do one thing good but then the following action would fall flat.

He led the line ok and did a better job than probably Babel and Kuyt would have done, but I dunno. With the fact that he was playing against 2 defensive midfielders for most of the game, I thought he could have done more and taken the chance offered to him.

Offline No666

  • Married to Macca.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,719
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8492 on: October 20, 2009, 11:00:42 pm »
I have come to the reluctant conclusion that Lucas is a player who plays well when the team is playing well, and not so well in times of trouble. That match encapsulated the tendency.
& what is it with us and adductor muscle injuries - have we not looked at preventative exercise; doesn't Beckham do bloody pirates or something next to his missus to avoid that kind of injury?

Yeah, Killer, I agree on n'gog. Okay in patches. That's us atm - okay in patches.

Offline liverbnz

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,519
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8493 on: October 20, 2009, 11:05:32 pm »
Did you think Ngog had a great game? I mean he didn't play bad but he wasn't exactly that great either. He would do one thing good but then the following action would fall flat.

He led the line ok and did a better job than probably Babel and Kuyt would have done, but I dunno. With the fact that he was playing against 2 defensive midfielders for most of the game, I thought he could have done more and taken the chance offered to him.

His composure let him down with his finishing which is usually something that he has in ambundance, maybe it was the occasion. On the other hand his hold-up play was excellent. He nearly always got the ball under control and played the sensible ball, allowing others to get forward. Thought the ref blew up on him for nothing a few times
One thing you will discover is that life is based less than you think on what you've learned, and much more than you think on what you have inside you from the very beginning

Offline lionel_messias

  • likes pulling cocker spaniels out of Kim Kardassian's ass
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,448
  • 'You can throw your plan in the purple bin'
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8494 on: October 20, 2009, 11:10:03 pm »
Jamie Carragher is shot to shit.

On the plus side, Kelly is a player and so is N'gog. Oh, and I thought Agger did reasonably well but was left stark naked for their winner.

You speak the truth man. I'm not sure what has happened to him but mentally he always seems to look like a bomb has just gone off in his vicinity when we are being attacked. He never had lightning pace or was hugely physically dominant so if he's lost his timing and his believe, well I don't want to say it.

I think Level 3 football is not the issue here now, but hopefully this is the thread where we can get away from the knee-jerking.

There is lot going on at the club and it is true: injuries to key players are hurting us bad right now and we are being punished for our mistakes but I have another take on our real problem...

The lack of youngsters coming through or signed at the right age. I believe this has undermined the entire squad - you need two or three or four bright sparks breaking through to keep the older hands on their toes and fresh.

It is good to see Kelly today (doing well) and Spearing (doing okay, only one full game)but they are not enough, especially when what our squad needs is fresh talent at centre-half and up front; I don't criticise those two though, its good to see them get a chance.

It's happened suddenly but it is now certain, we do need a breath of a fresh air in the dressing room. Let's get to January and see what we can do.

The media will talk about a crisis. End of the day, we're a football team that has fallen apart rapidly, but the manager still has time, and we still have very good players to come back. With a bit of stability in defense we can start playing our football again and we look forward to Aquilani and newly fit Aurelio and Agger helpings us with that.

Bit of perspective needed; we're poor at the moment but we can improve rapidly and then get 3 in, 3 out in January.







 
Follow me on twatter: @JDMessias

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,603
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8495 on: October 20, 2009, 11:10:10 pm »
Unfortunately this is the issue with Lucas isn't it? I didn't ever feel that Lucas does anything with any great deal of conviction. His tackles are half arsed and not timed very well. His shots don't really have much power. His passing doesn't really have that level of consistent intent. He doesn't really provide a dominant box-to-box running role.

Everything is just a bit, well, meh. He does seem like a type of that you can slip into a confident team and he can keep things ticking along but if you need a tackle, a goal or a pass, you don't really think Lucas can provide it.

The way it goes really. Not everyone can be brilliant.

Well played Kelly though. He did look a level above previously and he proved it today. Besides injury, if Johnson is out and we play Degen over this kid, it will be scandalous. Yossi once again did all he could do to drive the attack and I was disappointed in Kuyt, who also looks a bit out of his depth when not surrounded by quality.

I am more disappointed in Masch and Carragher though. These two should be leading and driving this side on. They are doing neither.

Offline scatman

  • Slutty enough to make Jordan blush - and hard enough to piss in the wrong bush! Missing a shift key.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,087
  • This is my world, you just WORK here :D
    • directions to football stadiums
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8496 on: October 20, 2009, 11:52:01 pm »
not sure what to say, have to blame attackers for missing chances and defence again, its just a reoccurence every game, forget about the luck of the disallowed goal, its the same fucking thing every game. Reina has fuck all confidence in his defence, Carragher is in the media every fucking day talking about we'll get over this patch and bullshit but he's the one who's not on form. For the first goal, the entire team bar Kelly and Reina stood still, not a single reaction. 2nd goal is just not even worth talking about, despicable. Some great chances missed at the other end, one by Ngog who i thought did well, held up the play well. Dirk just seems off, his form's gone, again why doesnt Voronin get a start, got on the ball straight away and tried to get shit done. Ah i think i'll exile myself from RAWK till the manc game, it's not looking great.
Would sacrifice Fordy in a sacred Mayan ritual to have him as the next Liverpool manager
Football stadiums in England

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,603
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8497 on: October 21, 2009, 12:34:27 am »
Lets be honest, its obvious that we will beat Utd on Sunday. Its just one of those games that you can do with when you need to inject some belief, need to win and will be treated like a Cup Final.

I mean, if the team cannot get motivated or cannot battle for 90 mins against Utd, then you fear for us immensely for the rest of the season.

If we fail to win, then any slim chance of winning the league has gone, because your likely to see a Chelsea win on the weekend which would take us to 8 points behind them. Thats just too much, even at this stage of the season, mainly because of the incredible jump in confidence the team would have to make to win 23 games.

Then again, looks likely that there will be no Gerrard or Torres. Possibly no Johnson and Kelly went off as well.

Maybe the chance of us winning is down to 99%

Offline b_joseph

  • b_jesus, b_mary, b_joseph and the wee b_donkey. Unloyal gloryhunter who was probably Kelly Osbourne in another life.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,603
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8498 on: October 21, 2009, 12:52:06 am »
Killer - I dont know if this crew has the belief or fight in them right now. Did you see how we crawled into a ball in that 2nd half?? I never thought I would see our guys just completed shirk away from adversity like that in a big game at home.

I wasnt angry tonight, I was more disappointed. Disappointed in a way that makes me feel defeated.

Offline Franck Le Poof

  • Blonde transvestite who is utterly haunted by the idea of sitting in other mens piss. Has ticked the box for no publicity ;)
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,321
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8499 on: October 21, 2009, 01:34:16 am »
I have done my best every day to look away when I've seen his name mentioned, I've not spoken of him since he left, but fuck it;

Xabi showed himself up to be a bit of a bitch in his departure. I thank him for all the times he gave us in a red shirt and his goal in Istanbul will never be forgotten, but from this point on I couldn't care less about what happens to him. The fact that after our best season in donkeys years, pushing the mancs so close for the title with him as one of most important players, and knowing that we only needed just a couple of more signings to truly have a title winning team, him leaving over what happened a year prior when quite frankly he had been shit is nothing but pettiness. It was obviously made very clear to him that everyone, including Rafa (just look at how stubborn he was in the market with Madrid), wanted him to stay and yet that one mistake was enough for him to fuck off and leave us with two central midfielders in the middle of pre season? Just a shit thing to do, in my humble opinion.

As for Mascherano, I trust djphal's word. He was right about Kelly today and he's a respected member and a top guy, he wouldn't be lying just for attention. And even if he isn't right, Masch's actions over the summer were disgusting, to put it mildly.If the reports are anything to go by he's having a negative effect behind the scenes and he's not doing much better on the pitch Juan Loco has it spot on as usual, over the summer he showed himself up to be an ungrateful cowardly mercenary and if his head has been turned by Barcelona and he isn't going to sort out his form soon then he can fuck off sharpish as well.


Jamie Carragher is shot to shit.

I'll say it in here to avoid the vitriol of the vast majority who refuse to accept it or simply can't take criticism of him, but he is gone. Only he and Pepe Reina are the constants in that piss poor defence and if anyone thinks Reina is doing anything other than covering for the liabilities in front of him then they should go fuck off and kill themselves.
...
Too right.

The defending for the second goal was cringe-inducing. Sure, the first mistake was made in midfield, but for our most experienced player - the man wearing the captain's armband on the night - to be as unaware as he was in conceding that goal is just wrong. He is meant to be our composed head that keeps his concentration up until the very end but he left Delgado completely free and we were rightly punished for it.


Rarely am I this un-level-headed but all things considered its been a rubbish few weeks for anything related to Liverpool and I needed to vent. Hope I've not offended anyone in here.
Whenever I meet a French girl I kiss her on both cheeks. Then I stand up and say hello

Offline RedMichelFerri

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,126
  • You'll Never Walk Alone - Liverpool till I die
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8500 on: October 21, 2009, 04:24:17 am »
Did you think Ngog had a great game? I mean he didn't play bad but he wasn't exactly that great either. He would do one thing good but then the following action would fall flat.

He led the line ok and did a better job than probably Babel and Kuyt would have done, but I dunno. With the fact that he was playing against 2 defensive midfielders for most of the game, I thought he could have done more and taken the chance offered to him.

 i thought he was really good, Specially in second half where he was brilliantly holding the ball up surrounded by players and bringing others in play. A fit Gerrard along with Yossi would have done more damage in those situations. Agreed he should have done better with Kelly's cross but make no mistake that chested control was class but sadly ball went little backwards which made him to make a turn and take the shot on his weaker foot. I also like his movement which is better than our other striker options bar Torres.
“Seeing these smiling faces is the greatest pleasure. They have been magnificent all season. They have been our 12th man. I have always said our fans are the best in England. Now I know they are the best in Europe too.”

- Rafa Benitez : RIP Ray.

Offline RedMichelFerri

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,126
  • You'll Never Walk Alone - Liverpool till I die
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8501 on: October 21, 2009, 06:44:54 am »
That's the one. The kid looks a class act... Fucking shame that you know he'll never play for Liverpool.

He is a class act (He has Stevie's build but thank god he doesn't have Stevie's pace). At least I hope that Manc scum don't get their hands on him.
        As far our reserves go, Martin Kelly is somewhat near him in terms of talent (ironically Rodwell also started his career as CB but moved in midfield due to their injury list). Just bulk him up a bit and we have Johnson clone ready for the league (with added bonus of being a natural CB). Also I find palsson has good potential to be a good CM. He has the physic to go with unlike Spearing or Irwin.
“Seeing these smiling faces is the greatest pleasure. They have been magnificent all season. They have been our 12th man. I have always said our fans are the best in England. Now I know they are the best in Europe too.”

- Rafa Benitez : RIP Ray.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8502 on: October 21, 2009, 07:40:35 am »
I think Level 3 football is not the issue here now, but hopefully this is the thread where we can get away from the knee-jerking.

Yup. We've renamed it before and maybe we just dispense with the tag, because the thread's something completely different now, I totally agree.

So guys - given I haven't had any time on RAWK recently and I don't know whassup (cheers for posting that link on Mascherano Baz mate) what's the overall picture just now? Is Rafa sitting on the ejector seat? This is giving free rein to anyone who'd like a change to pitch in with their criticism, and right now you have to say it justifiably brutal.

Are we on the brink on all fronts? How are things balanced?

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,603
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8503 on: October 21, 2009, 09:26:33 am »
Yup. We've renamed it before and maybe we just dispense with the tag, because the thread's something completely different now, I totally agree.

So guys - given I haven't had any time on RAWK recently and I don't know whassup (cheers for posting that link on Mascherano Baz mate) what's the overall picture just now? Is Rafa sitting on the ejector seat? This is giving free rein to anyone who'd like a change to pitch in with their criticism, and right now you have to say it justifiably brutal.

Are we on the brink on all fronts? How are things balanced?

The overall picture is a bit desperate. As we have worked out, we need 23 wins from the last 29 games (along with a couple of draws) in order to reach just last seasons points total. Which means the chances of us being better this season than last season are small.

As for the Champions League. Well, even 3 wins out of 3 may not save us. We will need to beat Lyon however.

The main problem is that I don't really know (and nor does anyone) what Rafa can do. There could be questions about motivation or one or two team selections, but overall I think Rafa has done the best he can with what he has and I think the plight of this season rests straight at the door of these players.

What is the most disappointing is how meek and soft we look. For a long time we have prided ourselves in being defensively solid, very strong and full of drive. These basic essentials just don't seem there anymore.

In my opinion, its not surprising. If you consider that our attacking players like Benayoun, Gerrard and Torres have led the team well when we have needed them (West Ham and Bolton being examples). We haven't really lost any players from this area of the pitch over the pre season.

The drive and solidness is missing further back. Without Alonso, we now have no one who has the drive, leadership or organisational ability that he provided. Mascherano should be providing this but he isn't. Could that be because he can't or because really, he does not care. I personally think its the latter. Throw in Lucas who isn't really going to take the lead, and then you have got a rudderless midfield.

At the back? Well we lost Sami. A natural leader and you think that his calming presence is now missing from our dressing room. There is no one to step in and Carragher should be providing this. But it hasn't helped that his personal decline has ramped up, so he has his own issues to worry about than just motivating those around him. The form of Skrtel hasn't helped but I think that may be linked to Carragher not doing well, as I am also unsure about Skrtel's leadership ability to take charge of the defence.

I just think that this year we look a less driven and less happy squad. Last year we had Sami, Alonso, a jovial Arbeloa and a happy Mascherano.

This year, we have lost 3 of those and 1 wants out. Its no surprise then why all our failings have come in those positions where we have lost these players, with the rest not able to provide some of the things that they could.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 09:32:17 am by killer_heels »

Offline No666

  • Married to Macca.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,719
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8504 on: October 21, 2009, 09:29:24 am »
Souness had some fair criticism last night. He brought the ownership situation into it, saying we need a new stadium - saying frankly we need daft Middle Eastern money - but he also said Rafa has to stand by his signings after five years in charge. Like others here, I am fed up of reading Carragher and others telling us how they 'have to bounce back'. Just quit the platitudes and go away and work on your own head. I don't know about losing the dressing room but Rafa is losing the faith of the supporters, as the reaction to Yossi's substitution made clear. In the circumstances, it was more significant than the 'stick your Gareth Barry' chant as it came from disbelief, and was quickly followed by applause, both for Yossi and - I think - for Voronin. But the first response was purely a verdict on Rafa's decision. & was I the only one, a few minutes before their first goal, shouting that we needed a substitution (a bit of Babel-like pace would have been ideal) to alter the dynamic because it was clear as day that they were going to equalise at that point.

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter. Royhendo's stalker.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,939
  • POOLCHECK HOMIE
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8505 on: October 21, 2009, 09:32:57 am »
What the fuck are you lot, a bunch of pussies or something?  We lose a few games and you start faffing around with the title of the thread.  Grow a pair.

We had our very best players out last night.  Johnson, Gerrard and Torres plus a £20m signing sitting out.  We had a 19 year old at right back, a 20 year old at left back and a 20 year old up front.  Plus a 22 year old trying his best to find his feet in midfield.  This was a very young and inexperienced side coming into a tough match against quality opposition.  Not to mention the lack of form.

Thought the young lads did well.  Ngog was Drogba-esque in his hold up play at times, taking the ball well on his chest.  Insua struggled a little but I think we need to consider that Govou is a top quality player, didn't rate him hugely prior to last night, but he made me sit up and take note.  Kelly was the best of all, what a debut from the young lad and such a shame he got injured.  I thought Lucas actually did ok, played some good passes and got forward well.

Sunday is going to be a huge test.  Probably we'll see how many of the players are playing for the manager.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8506 on: October 21, 2009, 09:40:14 am »
I saw Souness as it happens - was playing football with our very own Yorky (who's a far better player than I am incidentally) and missed most of the game. I saw the goal through a pub window (stood in the street like a tramp in a trackie) and listened to most of it on 5 Live with Mike Ingham calling Martin Kelly "Ablett" and Alan Green portraying a vision of footballing ineptitude during the first half that fair curled the toes. When the goal went in I sighed in relief and trotted off to the astroturf thinking all would be well with the world.

The thing is, the excuses have run out - I totally agree with you on that one No666. The results are all that's left to build the long-term progress upon, and if those go for whatever reason, then the whole house of cards (and that's all it can ever really be at any club) teeters on collapse.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8507 on: October 21, 2009, 09:41:29 am »
What the fuck are you lot, a bunch of pussies or something?  We lose a few games and you start faffing around with the title of the thread.  Grow a pair.

I have a pair. (They're pretentious.)

Hank, stick it in a pm mate. ;D

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter. Royhendo's stalker.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,939
  • POOLCHECK HOMIE
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8508 on: October 21, 2009, 10:09:04 am »
Not aimed at you Roy, my old buddy, but just a general vent because people seem to be getting ahead of themselves (although I think you are the only one who can change the title so see how you thought it was aimed at you, doh!).

You don't go from being on the fringes of Level 3 to complete bollocks in the space of a few months.  In the same way you can't go from Level 1 to Level 3 in a short time.  We are going through a bad patch, time to stick together.

Offline MamboGarcia

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8509 on: October 21, 2009, 10:23:30 am »
I will reserve judgement on Rafa and his team until I see this line-up (ish) after a few games:

Reina
Johnson Carragher Agger Aurelio
Mascherano Aquilani
Kuyt Gerrard Riera
Torres

with Yossi, Skrtel, Kyriagos, Insua, Dossena, Ngog, Lucas, Babel and Voronin pushing for a place.

I believe this team has the right mix of experience, energy, fight and sheer talent to win games.
We are in a rough patch, but need to keep an eye on the bigger picture.

Any other team would struggle without their (possibly) 4 best players, and another couple of good squad players, through injury.

Offline Joe_Singh

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,135
  • My idea is always to win trophies, not just games
    • Joe Singh
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8510 on: October 21, 2009, 10:26:51 am »
We had our very best players out last night.  Johnson, Gerrard and Torres plus a £20m signing sitting out.  We had a 19 year old at right back, a 20 year old at left back and a 20 year old up front.  Plus a 22 year old trying his best to find his feet in midfield.  This was a very young and inexperienced side coming into a tough match against quality opposition.  Not to mention the lack of form.

Thats a damn good point about the ages. Something that shouldn't be brushed aside so quickly or easily.
What I love about this, and several other of Kenny's press conferences, is that he manages to say something to the effect of  'Shut the fuck up, you fucking helmets and don't fuck with me or my football club or I'll make you eat your own balls', without actually using th

Offline Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,207
  • The first five yards........
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8511 on: October 21, 2009, 10:38:02 am »
What's the good news?

Benayoun. What a great player.

Oh, and Reina.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,207
  • The first five yards........
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8512 on: October 21, 2009, 10:41:19 am »
Thats a damn good point about the ages. Something that shouldn't be brushed aside so quickly or easily.

It would be a better point if you couldn't point to Aurelio, Dossena, Voronin on the bench. The boss had the experience. He chose not to use it.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8513 on: October 21, 2009, 12:02:53 pm »
You don't go from being on the fringes of Level 3 to complete bollocks in the space of a few months.  In the same way you can't go from Level 1 to Level 3 in a short time.  We are going through a bad patch, time to stick together.

Well, this is the thing - if there are issues between the players' ears, and particularly if those issues relate to the management in any way, and if the management (brass tacks now) aren't making the greatest decisions all the time... well - even the best managers in history have experienced 'great side to shite side' in a very short space of time. It's truly a house of cards in my view, and it's a precarious thing to pass off as stable.

Offline scatman

  • Slutty enough to make Jordan blush - and hard enough to piss in the wrong bush! Missing a shift key.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,087
  • This is my world, you just WORK here :D
    • directions to football stadiums
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8514 on: October 21, 2009, 12:10:29 pm »
onto the Mancs this weekend, I pray to whatever cock is up in the sky's to make sure johnson, torres and gerrard are fit. i'm not sure if the days extra rest is actually an advantage considering how we are playing..
Would sacrifice Fordy in a sacred Mayan ritual to have him as the next Liverpool manager
Football stadiums in England

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8515 on: October 21, 2009, 01:08:30 pm »
The off pitch crap is basically being brushed under the carpet again though isn't it?

I mean, I agree with various people on various problems on the pitch, especially the need for our defence to be sorted, it's an area I've been pointing at for a while and I think Skrtel and Agger need to be tried sooner rather than later.

But for me a lot of the stuff on the pitch looks confidence related. For a lot of the first half, and 20 minutes of the second yesterday we battered Lyon, we really did. People are talking like this is the worst performance they've ever seen - I honestly don't know what match they were watching. It's also no coincidence that they came back into it with a bang once Kelly had gone off, who was a real outlet and threat on the right.

Bad confidence and you get bad luck - it's not an excuse but bloody hell it's a factor. Clear penalty denied against Spurs for a confidence boosting equaliser. Villa gain the lead with a goal deep into the 2nd minute of 1 minute's injury time. Skrtel denied a penalty that would have put us 1-0 against Chelsea. Sunderland score from a scandalous goal - as bad a refereeing decision as you will ever see in top flight football. Kuyt has a perfectly good goal disallowed against Lyon last night, and of course, going into a tough, tough series of games we lose our two best players to injury in meaningless games there was no reason for them to play in, Kuyt looks knackered - but then did play a friendly in fucking Australia on a dodgy ankle. The club won't stump up to fly mash/lucas back early (no WAY that was Rafa's decision), then Johnson gets injured, and his replacement comes in, plays a blinder, and gets injured round about the time Lyon magically start looking a lot better again - with Carra at least partly to blame for the deadly winning goal.

Oh, also, Benayoun had done very little for the last 15 minutes he was on - he looked as knackered as Ngog. The person who for me was really creating last night was Aurelio, and Kelly for that matter. Benayoun scored and was in and out of the rest of the game.

Anyway, onto the on pitch stuff. Look at Newcastle, look at Arsenal a couple of seasons ago where there was just a tiny bit of boardroom shenanigans. You can find hundreds and hundreds of examples of board room shite absolutely destroying clubs. Can anyone give me any convincing examples of managers who've managed to win despite boardroom shite - without getting more money than their rivals?

Right, one last issue that's been doing my HEAD in recently: Young Players.

What, we're bringing that one up again? We were never likely to see youth come through until this and last season, since Rafa started buying a few in his first but mainly 2nd and 3rd season - though of course with full control only given now.

So far this season we've had:

Insua become a first team regular, now having his first rough patch, which he'll be stronger for.

Ngog is developing well, looks a good 20 year old striker, and though his finishing (unusually, but all strikers have the odd off day in that respect) was poor yesterday the rest of his game is looking well ahead of what you'd expect from a lad his age. The far more hyped Welbeck looks far more anonymous in matches, for example. Indeed some of his hold up play yesterday is better than I've seen from 'Nando, and I still maintain is something he could improve, and would help us a lot if we did.

Spearing is also devloping well. Set back on his debut, not ideal to throw him in, but the alternatives were either Plessis or Aurelio. I see it as a show of faith in the lad, his next game will tell us a lot about him, and I hope he does well against Arsenal. I think his future is further forward though, debut or not, no tackles at all from a DM is worrying - but he's got talent and heart.

Ayala had a solid debut, at a very young age, and has looked impressive for the reserves since.

Kelly, well, Kelly just looks the part. If he doesn't make it to the top I'll be very surprised. Doesn't happen often, but he's one who, well, repeating myself here but he just seems to have 'it'. I'd love to see a Kelly/Agger pairing in the future - more skill there than a lot of teams have in their strikers.

So, how many young players does it take coming through for Rafa to be given a little credit here? 10? 20? Because 5 looking good, in or at the fringes, in the last two seasons seems pretty bloody good to me, plus Nemeth who is looking superb on loan and for the u20's, Pacheco who also looks the part, Palsson also, Gulasci likewise (Nemeth and Gulasci will likely be first team next season, and we'll see a little of Pacheco I should think) then a whole bunch of players like Amoo, Ecclestone, Weijl, Mavinga, Della Valle and loads more who all (to varying degrees) look capable of making the step up, or at least being sold for healthy money.

Sadly though, the owners are a cancer eating away at the solid foundations Rafa has built here and our total lack of net spend this summer must have dropped heads in the dressing room - how could it not? Not only are we struggling to invest, we can't just up players contracts to keep them happy either - and for all that people want to paint Alonso leaving as down to the Barry situation we actually have more evidence to suggest it was mainly money, after all he did mention it directly. Similar to Mash, money is an issue there - not the case with our rivals. City are paying obscene wages and if Utd/Chelsea players start playing silly buggers for even more obscene wages (and they have, and key players like Terry and Ferdinand) the club just throws money at them till they start badge kissing again.

Not only do we not have that investment, that luxury of paying players what they demand these days, we also have owners who actively fucking snipe at the manager like Gillette in his recent bullshit interview. Plus of course the media buzzing around like bluebottles on shit - revelling because they sniff a chance to realise their longstanding ambition of getting Rafa sacked.

We really do need to pull something out against the Mancs. Thank fuck that's our next game - it's the thing that's actually keeping me strangely optimistic despite everything. We desperately need an injection of confidence-smack, and the Mancs are our favourite dealer in that respect, plus they've been shit this season. If ever one game can turn around the whole atmosphere of a club then, without doubt, that is it, and I'm really looking forward to it.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline the 92A

  • Alberto Incontidor. Peneus. Phantom Thread Locker. Mr Bus. But there'll be another one along soon enough. Almost as bad as Jim...
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,029
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8516 on: October 21, 2009, 01:16:25 pm »
After last night this is hard to write. with a second string team we were faced with a must win match, with all the off pitch nonsense looming massively. I don't no whether I'm more pissed off with the result or the three quarters of the ground that left after their second goal. I'm old enough to remember when we used to sing 'Sit down You Bums' when the main stand or Kemlyn used to get off early for the bus. Supporting the team when you were getting beat used to be one of the things that distinguished from the majority of supporters. The booing of the Benayoun decision, by loads around me who couldn't be arsed getting behind the team, left a sour taste. Anyway I digress.

I've been following this thread from the first of the original posts. And you shouldn't be so hard on yourselves. You should all be proud of this thread. I've learnt loads following it.   I was brought up on the Shankly quote that football is a simple game complicated by idiots. Something I have believed all my life. I never had much time for those who were into debating 433 vs 442 because to me these were starting positions, far more important were things I'd observed watching the rise of liverpool

I've been lucky enough to have had the greatest football education possible, I can literally count on one hand the games I missed at Anfield from the late sixties until the early eighties. Games that were often never televised. I realised watching Liverpool that the team was more important than individuals but that was not the whole story, you needed the right individuals who had to have many qualities. They needed to be great players who understood that their first responsibility was to the team, they also needed tactical awareness, how to close down and create space. This was the one thing that they needed above anything else if they were to succeed at Liverpool. As me Dad would say 'he's a good player but not good enough for us because he hasn't got a football brain. The exceptional individuals such as Keegan and Dalglish  had all these talents and were brillant individuals as well,  BTW Yorkie I agreed with every word you said about Keegan, So paradoxically both The team and the individuals were important.

I realised how important the mental was in football, often football was decided by little things that turned games at important times. The papers would generally have things in black or white, but watching football I realised it was not that simple, often the losing team played well and could of won if they'd taken their chance. Tied into this was the role of confidence, absolutely crucial in football. It was not just the players but the crowd, we could instill confidence. I used to love it when we went behind, the Kop would will the team on, I never understood crowds that weren't patient and turned on their teams you could see the fear transmitt itself to the pitch, totally self defeating. I always thought confidence was underestimated in football, both in players and teams, It's why strikers have goal droughts and good teams go on bad runs.

Although pass and move was simple I was aware it was more complicated than that, and I knew Shankly was far too clever not to know that, while his teams played simple football I suspected he worked his bollocks of to achieve that apperance of simplisty. Then I come across Roys original stuff on Michels, who had done it with Ajax, a team anyone from the seventies was in awe of and it fitted. Behind all great practices is theory and when the theory comes from such a great practitioner, I was hooked. It explained lots of things that I'd observed watching Liverpool and put them in a framework. I,ve even started getting into the formations which I've always dismissed.

As for the thread, IMHO it's been  right about Rafas intentions, and at the end of last season things were genuinely looking good, we were right to use RM's framework to judge where we were. But within RM's original conditions for building a footballing dynasty was stability within the club. That was not just a throw away, it's more important than any of his tactical nouse, because without stability the foundations are on shaky ground.

My take. Benitez's project has been harder than he could of expected because we originally didn't have the resourses to compete at the highest level. he got around it with a strategy of gradual improvement which took more of his most precious commodity time. Then he's faced political battles which were not of his making but which he couldn't ignore, which took up masses of his energy and drive and again eat into his time. According to Tony Barrett we've got no real money for transfers and after last night I fear Rafas on borrowed time. Yet I agree with Hank Scorpio, now is the time to grow balls. It hangs in the balance but all is not lost, that was second string team out last night that was putting up a brave fight up to seventy minutes. When we,ve overcome some vital injuries we are not as bad as our lack of confidence suggests. If Rafa is able to turn this around then he is a genius, If Rafa is sacked then our carpetbaggers will have a fire sale, Torres, benayoun, gerrard, reina, mascherano could bring in some cash to dint that debt. The stakes are that high. Thats why Benitez needs uncondital support right now, even if he makes mistakes, the alternative with these buyout merchants is unthinkable.
Still Dreaming of a Harry Quinn

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8517 on: October 21, 2009, 01:29:26 pm »
Superb post 92A, thank you. Glad to be the first to welcome you to the thread!

That stability issue is absolutely key for me too - it's one of the things that really angers me about the media in general. Like Souness laying into Rafa last night for example - a man who managed to turn us from the best to also rans within three seasons and (for the time) massive financial backing - backing that Rafa wouldn't be stupid enough to even dream he could get at the moment. That goes across the board - all the blame is laid at his door, even though a couple of seasons ago, when there was barely even ripples at the top of Arsenal's tree (compared to what we have had) there was an outpouring of articles along the lines of 'well, stability is all, of course form has suffered...'

We've got a board that makes Mike Ashley look competent yet the situation is portrayed as if Rafa should have easily won the title by now with the 'backing' he's had.

Anyway, I'll start ranting if I carry on down that line so welcome aboard again.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline RedMichelFerri

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,126
  • You'll Never Walk Alone - Liverpool till I die
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8518 on: October 21, 2009, 01:50:36 pm »
That was fucking Awesome post 92A.
“Seeing these smiling faces is the greatest pleasure. They have been magnificent all season. They have been our 12th man. I have always said our fans are the best in England. Now I know they are the best in Europe too.”

- Rafa Benitez : RIP Ray.

Offline hassinator

  • RAWK Funk Soul Brother
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,878
  • oot and proud
    • good egg hq
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #8519 on: October 21, 2009, 02:02:13 pm »
What the fuck are you lot, a bunch of pussies or something?  We lose a few games and you start faffing around with the title of the thread.  Grow a pair.

We had our very best players out last night.  Johnson, Gerrard and Torres plus a £20m signing sitting out.  We had a 19 year old at right back, a 20 year old at left back and a 20 year old up front.  Plus a 22 year old trying his best to find his feet in midfield.  This was a very young and inexperienced side coming into a tough match against quality opposition.  Not to mention the lack of form.

Thought the young lads did well.  Ngog was Dropba-esque in his hold up play at times, taking the ball well on his chest.  Insua struggled a little but I think we need to consider that Govou is a top quality player, didn't rate him hugely prior to last night, but he made me sit up and take note.  Kelly was the best of all, what a debut from the young lad and such a shame he got injured.  I thought Lucas actually did ok, played some good passes and got forward well.

Sunday is going to be a huge test.  Probably we'll see how many of the players are playing for the manager.

what i think.

this is not a good situation to be in but lets actually focus on where we started last night and were our problems were caused.

yes rafa has accountability for his signings but if the best of them are injured and he's giving a man of the match debut to kelly then how much of this can be considered specifically his fault?