Author Topic: A case for the Tories in this coming election!  (Read 5553 times)

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« on: April 20, 2017, 07:10:21 pm »
No. I'm not going to bang their drum, vote for them or do anything but despise their horrific nature.

But.

Plenty of people vote Tory. Apparently sane and decent people.

Why? Why do they do this? What can they see that others can't? Why have the Tories got such a lead? What are people voting for? It seems clear that the majority of folks lose under their stewardship. That seems more than set to continue.

I don't get it.
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Offline TravisBickle

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 07:11:48 pm »
They give the impression of competence and seriousness. They are good at politics. They focus on things people care about. They are not lead by Jeremy Corbyn.
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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 07:25:53 pm »
A lot of people are inherently selfish. One of the main reasons anyone has ever explained to me why they've voted Tory is that they will simply be better off as a result. When it is mentioned that so many others will suffer as a result of them having a bit extra the response is one of shrugged shoulders and generally a vibe of 'so fucking what?'

I'm not saying all Tory voters are like that, I'm just saying from my experience of speaking to a few over the years is there seems to be a theme. That said, a lot of Tories wont admit to being one, the shy Tory isn't a myth. I don't know anyone in my personal life who votes for them, any conversation with one has been in a bar perhaps, somewhere public and sometimes online. If I know someone is a Tory I instantly think they are a dickhead and I don't care how childish or short-sighted that sounds.

The Tory propaganda machine works better than any other party's does, that goes a long way. They pander to the feelings of so many ignoramuses in this country, those who are easily influenced, those who never look at the bigger picture and those who are, as I said at the top, inherently selfish. The current 'leadership' of the Labour party gives the Tory's carte blanche to do as they please in some ways because it isn't an opposition, nor does it even at times claim to be one (either through mere words or opposition to Tory policies).

It's sad state of affairs. It really is.


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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 07:26:52 pm »
Agreed Andy, just makes me think that most people are c*nts and have no shame.

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 07:28:36 pm »
Trust...

They trust them to run the economy and the country efficiently.



Personally I don't think trampling the poor into the dirt is part of running a country efficiently, but it's also clear that no one in their right mind would trust McDonnell to run the economy effectively which feeds back into the trust of the Tories.
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Offline Redman0151

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 07:30:59 pm »
They successfully spread propaganda that they're the "smart" option and Labour is full of loonies, politics of envy and unrealistic hopes and dreams.

They manage to trick people into thinking this is as good as it gets, and anything else is just bright eyed young people who don't understand the world.

Plus there's a lot of selfish, greedy and racist c*nts. The Torys look after their own, all the little gobshite Tory towns do not face the cuts and problems that most of the North and major cities do. It doesn't matter how many people on Merseyside they put into poverty, how many millions live off food banks, because they wouldn't vote for them anyway
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 07:43:31 pm »
They've got a good con going.

To less well off working people (i.e. the majority of the country) they offer the instant reward of lower tax, rather than the prolonged reward of better services. They're also great at promoting the negative side of their policies (weaker service sector) as someone elses fault (NHS waiting lists too long? Too many immigrants ahead of you in the queue. Not being paid enough at work? Immigrants forcing wages down).

Baring in mind that 80% of this country don't give a shit about the intricacies of politics and how it effects society, and hence dont see the ramifcations of Tory policy, it's an amazingly effective way of getting into power.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 07:45:12 pm by Xabi Gerrard »

Offline oldfordie

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 08:03:33 pm »
Besides the obvious selfish reasons theres also many who think they are better than the rabble who vote Labour, many dont live the lifestyle of the more wealthy but they still view themselves as superiour to the rabble they live among. voting Tory separates them from the working class Labour voter.
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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 08:07:35 pm »
If you want to know why people vote Tory, just study the parliamentary cycle the coalition was in office. Cameron and Osborne broke promise after promise and missed target after target but they spent three solid years repeating lies about the crash, hammering home their narrative about economic competence and successfully forcing voters to consider the choice between Cameron and Miliband.

 Meanwhile, Labour effectively assumed that because the Tories didn't win last time they wouldn't win this time. Bad polls were dismissed as "negative thinking." They didn't defend the previous Labour government's record. They kept Miliband in place despite every single poll telling them people didn't want him to be prime minister. They treated the economy as a side issue, not the main issue (which it was, as a result of Tory message discipline.)

 They're fucking clever, basically. Cruel? Yes. Liars? Always. Competent? Never. But they know how to play the game and the opposition doesn't. The opposition doesn't even care enough to *try* playing the game.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 08:11:47 pm by TravisBickle »
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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 08:21:07 pm »
The only thing I agree with them is not over taxing the rich, capitalism should stay Darwinist to incentivise the brilliant minds in our country, although not at the expense of welfare. The financial sector can get to fuck though.

That's what keeps me in the middle really, it's a shame New Labour has gone the way of the dodo.
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Offline CaseRed

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 10:47:36 am »
I have voted Tory in the past. This time most likely will be Lib Dem.

Reasons for vote were as outlined above. Labour have to my mind in the past not spoken for my outloook on life. They definitely don't now.

I believe strongly in equality of opportunity, labour and now especially Corbyns view of what constitutes equality don't tie in. As an example, I attended a Grammar School in Kent. It attracted people from right across the spectrum in a very mixed income area. Equality of opportunity for me means giving all those who have the capability to attend a high achieving establishment that chance. Greater provision for Grammar schools and ensuring all those eligible would have a place across the board would surely assist in increasing social mobility not reducing it. That said, I am in no way in favour of a 2 tier education system in which investment is limited only on the high achiever. Nothing wrong with streamed education as long as the same investment is made in all schools catering for different needs and abilities.

With regard to the NHS. I have seen first hand on more than 1 occasion that it needs significant reform. Labours answer has always been to throw more money at it. This is not the only answer. I am not saying privitise services by any means, but it is so antiquated in terms of working practice (at least in my experience) with huge waste. Front line staff in the main are superb. The structure of the system is what needs reform. It is used as a political football too much, especially by Labour. The system will never improve unless there is reform alligned with investment.

On taxation, I agree that a balance needs to be struck between ensuring that people contribute to society as a whole and help out those who really need it, but I also see the merit in incentivising work. Previous systems have made it too easy for people not to work as there was greater profitability in claiming. An article quoted in a seperate thread relating to the benefit cap concluded with a statement about a family who had not worked for 9 years but had been unable to find work in the 4 months since the cap came into effect. What was the difference in the previous 9 years before the cap if it was not that work was not worth it in that case? It is also vital that the country remains attractive to finance and foreign investment. Corbyn shouting from the roof tops that he will penalise corporations if elected is not the way to do that.

Moving to Europe, I voted Remain but could see the attraction of many of the arguments for leaving. Through my own research into the issues concerned I came to the conclusion that staying was the best option. I still believe that to be the case currently.

My main issue with no longer feeling confortable to vote Tory is that since June 23rd the party has lurched right from the centre right I felt they occupied up to that point. Demonisation of immigrants and cosying up to Trump. Claims of a government to represent all on May's ascension to PM then conveniently forgetting the 48.1% who voted remain.

As a conclusion, I would put my beliefs just right of centre in the main. I felt previously that the Tories were the best option to represent my views. Now I do not feel that way.

Offline GreatEx

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2017, 11:28:08 am »
See, there are three kinds of people: dicks, pussies and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes. And all the assholes want is to shit all over everything. So pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while because, pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes! And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2017, 11:28:59 am »
The tories are the better option than the current labour lot, and that's not me saying they're any good.

Plus may and Hammond don't have anywhere near the baggage of corbyn and McDonnell with the likes of the ira and foreign groups

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2017, 11:31:54 am »
The Tories are very good at playing politics, the opposition not so much.

Plus, with the current state of the Labour party, it's not difficult to see why some people will vote Tory.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 11:36:42 am »
The tories are the better option than the current labour lot, and that's not me saying they're any good.

Plus may and Hammond don't have anywhere near the baggage of corbyn and McDonnell with the likes of the ira and foreign groups

Bollocks.

Tell that to the millions in food banks and dying in NHS waiting rooms
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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2017, 11:41:28 am »
Bollocks.

Tell that to the millions in food banks and dying in NHS waiting rooms
you should say that to the millions more who are going to vote for them, and of course they do have an element of competence which labour right now don't and the current lot like bashing the last labour government who saw this lot for what they are

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2017, 11:42:30 am »
I actually think a lot of people are relatively selfish economically I don't think that is just the case for Tory voters, some people I'm sure don't just vote for Labour out of an altruistic desire to do the right thing, they also think they'll be better off under Labour.

Labour needs to do a better job of convincing people that they will be better off under a Labour government rather than hoping human nature will change.

The Tories obviously have a huge advantage with the print media as well, Labour will get a huge amount of (often unfair) scrutiny from there which just won't be applied to the Tories, and some people are certainly influenced by that, although nobody forces anyone to read the right wing press, people do it out of choice.

There's a fair spectrum of people who vote for both parties, I even know a few floating voters who have voted Tory (gasp!), they would be socially liberal but economically somewhat to the right, who will sometimes vote for any of Labour/LibDems or Tories depending on policies and the leadership at the time (pretty much all voting LibDem this time around).

I may not have agreed with their decisions when they voted Tory in the past but it doesn't make them evil or stupid either.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 11:49:47 am »
you should say that to the millions more who are going to vote for them, and of course they do have an element of competence which labour right now don't and the current lot like bashing the last labour government who saw this lot for what they are

An element of competence by constantly cutting the most vulnerable parts of society whilst still managing to massively increase the debt?


People have been banned for using the term "Red Tory" in the past, but given you think the Torys are better than Labour right now, surely it's an apt description for you, no? Or is Amber Tory more fitting?
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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2017, 11:54:55 am »
An element of competence by constantly cutting the most vulnerable parts of society whilst still managing to massively increase the debt?


People have been banned for using the term "Red Tory" in the past, but given you think the Torys are better than Labour right now, surely it's an apt description for you, no? Or is Amber Tory more fitting?
different people have different priorities, people who own small and medium sized businesses for example have perfectly valid reasons to see them as the better, more competent option, especially when compared to a bunch of protestors who've hijacked the labour party

And for the record I highly doubt labour right now would have a clue on how to actually fix the problems, as evidenced by some of their recent policies that were harebrained (vat on private schools to pay for state schools meals was something that wouldn't pass basic scrutiny, the £250k wage cap), so in all honesty if by some miracle corbyn won he'd fuck up so badly we'd be consigned to several decades of Tory rule as labour would be destroyed as opposed to most likely a decade of Tory rule.

And FYI thinking the tories are the better option doesn't make you a red Tory, especially if you aren't voting for them

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2017, 11:56:50 am »
The Tories benefit from:

A very friendly media on the whole

Play to peoples base fear, scapegoating a particular minority or group be it immigrants, the EU, 'shirkers', Muslims (Zak Goldsmith) and in the past TU's

A lot of wealthy backers

Play to sectional interests and large voting demographic groups eg Pensioners, Essex Man in the past at the expense of others eg Students, the disabled,

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Offline redmark

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2017, 12:10:08 pm »
As an example, I attended a Grammar School in Kent. It attracted people from right across the spectrum in a very mixed income area. Equality of opportunity for me means giving all those who have the capability to attend a high achieving establishment that chance. Greater provision for Grammar schools and ensuring all those eligible would have a place across the board would surely assist in increasing social mobility not reducing it.

I think this is an excellent illustration of why many/most people vote Conservative: the 'common sense' analysis is generally a 'conservative' one, is very appealing and rather straightforward to get across in a brief, clear, simple statement of policy or position.

But it's usually wrong, as in this case. There are lots of studies on the effect of selection and grammar schools, whether in their heyday or recently, and they're rather consistent in finding that a small benefit for those pupils who get into a grammar school (which is predominantly better off kids anyway; relatively few poorer kids get in, because their academic disadvantage is well under way by then) is outweighed by the negatives for those who don't. Studies have demonstrated that in areas with selective schools, income inequalities are greater than in areas without. You don't get better schools without also getting worse schools.

Politics and the multi-dimensional impact of policies across complex social groups is complicated stuff. Common sense answers are appealing, but almost always a gross simplification which makes the problem worse, not better - and in the minds of those who formulate them, if not those who fall for them, deliberately so.


The other particularly prominent reason for voting Tory I think is a disillusionment with the impact governments can have in general. If you feel that they're all as bad as each other, or the system is rigged and that no government can significantly change things, then it's actually reasonably logical to vote for the party that will leave you to your own devices to a greater extent - if you have the means to look after yourself. The party that is generally believed to keep taxes lower and provide the basis for a more stable economy then provides the greater ability to 'look after yourself'. The growing cynicism about politics in general benefits thus also benefits the Tories.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 12:15:03 pm by redmark »
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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2017, 12:17:51 pm »
What was wrong with the existing Tory thread?
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Offline moloch

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2017, 12:32:41 pm »
They are willing to say anything to get elected (and the current Labor leadership is willing to say anything not to get elected).

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2017, 12:46:34 pm »
different people have different priorities, people who own small and medium sized businesses for example have perfectly valid reasons to see them as the better, more competent option, especially when compared to a bunch of protestors who've hijacked the Labour Party
If Corbyn went through with punishing corporations and high earners combined with a hard brexit we would actually go back to the 1970s. With higher tariffs and quotas and no business growth we would reexperience stagflation.

We need a party that's interested in moving liquidity from the financial sector back to businesses. Everything the Bank of England has tried so far has failed. Inflation targeting has become irrelevant, QE doesn't work and just hordes money between the banks.

It's all rather depressing to be honest. The torys will continue to prop up the banks and traders, labour don't have a clue how to go about fixing the issue and the lib dems seem to be mainly preoccupied on brexit.
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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2017, 01:50:29 pm »
If you want to know why people vote Tory, just study the parliamentary cycle the coalition was in office. Cameron and Osborne broke promise after promise and missed target after target but they spent three solid years repeating lies about the crash, hammering home their narrative about economic competence and successfully forcing voters to consider the choice between Cameron and Miliband.

 Meanwhile, Labour effectively assumed that because the Tories didn't win last time they wouldn't win this time. Bad polls were dismissed as "negative thinking." They didn't defend the previous Labour government's record. They kept Miliband in place despite every single poll telling them people didn't want him to be prime minister. They treated the economy as a side issue, not the main issue (which it was, as a result of Tory message discipline.)

 They're fucking clever, basically. Cruel? Yes. Liars? Always. Competent? Never. But they know how to play the game and the opposition doesn't. The opposition doesn't even care enough to *try* playing the game.
This, the major reasons they won in 2015 was Miliband and Labour's failure to defend their record and to even apologise for it!  FFS have you ever heard a Tory apologise for the Poll Tax or for the recessions in the 1980s and the 1990s or for the ERM fiasco under Major and Lamont?  Of course not

If Labour don't shout from the roof tops all they achieved between 1997 and 2010 then who is going to do so.

Now we have Corbyn, he is the major reason that the Tories are 24 points ahead in the Opinion Polls.  I am a Labour Member and I am voting Labour despite Corbyn not because of him.  I cannot see how he would in any way be popular with anyone outside of his left wing cohort.  He is toxic
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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2017, 01:56:06 pm »
I thought this might have been a Kickstarter page to fund a huge Sealed Case to lock Maggie May and her Minions in,

Never mind   

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2017, 01:57:45 pm »
I am not well off, too many debts, kids and a mortgage but I earn a decent salary, my missus works and our combined income in excess of £40k.  I am the kind of earner that do well under the Tories as they have move the threshold for the 40% bracket up to around my income level  so I benefit from their policies but I have never and would never vote for them.

People vote mainly on what is good for them and if the Tories sell the fact that they are competent on the economy and paint Labour as a party of high taxes, high spend like they do and Labour fail to counteract that then you can see why people vote for them.  I don't agree with it but I can understand why they do it
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Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2017, 02:13:22 pm »
If the media is so biased against Labour as some say, then how did Tony Blair/Labour win 3 general elections in a row? People always looking to blame the media for everything nowadays. Maybe Labour just aren't up to it at this moment in time and haven't been since 2010?

Tories are better at playing to English nationalism too which is a weakness from Labour.

Offline cloggypop

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2017, 02:18:20 pm »
If the media is so biased against Labour as some say, then how did Tony Blair/Labour win 3 general elections in a row? People always looking to blame the media for everything nowadays. Maybe Labour just aren't up to it at this moment in time and haven't been since 2010?

Tories are better at playing to English nationalism too which is a weakness from Labour.
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Offline thelinnen

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2017, 02:19:57 pm »
If the media is so biased against Labour as some say, then how did Tony Blair/Labour win 3 general elections in a row? People always looking to blame the media for everything nowadays. Maybe Labour just aren't up to it at this moment in time and haven't been since 2010?

Tories are better at playing to English nationalism too which is a weakness from Labour.
The media will switch support if there's something in it for them. It's why the rag endorsed vote leave, Murdoch had a lot to gain from the UK being out of the EU.
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Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2017, 03:03:12 pm »
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-14785501
Ah so it is Rupert Murdoch's fault. Why have an election at all then, why not just ask Rupert who he thinks should be in government, save us the time.

Offline Outer Mongolian Red

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2017, 03:04:35 pm »
Ah so it is Rupert Murdoch's fault. Why have an election at all then, why not just ask Rupert who he thinks should be in government, save us the time.
Well The Sun have backed every winner so we might as well.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2017, 03:36:28 pm »
If the media is so biased against Labour as some say, then how did Tony Blair/Labour win 3 general elections in a row? People always looking to blame the media for everything nowadays. Maybe Labour just aren't up to it at this moment in time and haven't been since 2010?

Tories are better at playing to English nationalism too which is a weakness from Labour.

Blair was the exception. By 1997 he was that popular that there was nothing the media could have done to stop him, he would have still won a landslide and the right wing media would have looked stupid for supporting a loser in Major and the Tories. The media help the Tories massively, but it would be wrong to think its the only reason the Tories win elections.
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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2017, 03:42:28 pm »
Well The Sun have backed every winner so we might as well.

Precisely. It isn't a coincidence and it shouldn't be overlooked.

Offline Cliff Bastin

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2017, 04:01:54 pm »
Blair was the exception. By 1997 he was that popular that there was nothing the media could have done to stop him, he would have still won a landslide and the right wing media would have looked stupid for supporting a loser in Major and the Tories. The media help the Tories massively, but it would be wrong to think its the only reason the Tories win elections.
Isn't the BBC and media generally supposed to be left wing? If that is the case then why would they bother helping the Tories?

Offline kennedy81

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2017, 04:07:45 pm »
Ah so it is Rupert Murdoch's fault. Why have an election at all then, why not just ask Rupert who he thinks should be in government, save us the time.
He doesn't care who is in government, so long as they pander to his wishes.

Offline redmark

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2017, 04:11:54 pm »
Isn't the BBC and media generally supposed to be left wing? If that is the case then why would they bother helping the Tories?

According to who? There are plenty of lefty individuals in the media (particularly liberal on social issues), but at most newspapers their own views don't matter because the paper has a clearly defined editorial policy (most editors, and almost all owners, are decidedly right wing).

The BBC is more complicated, but it has been pointed out that several key political correspondents at the BBC were Young Conservatives at university. Anything with Andrew Neill on it might as well be produced by Norman Tebbit; Newsnight on the other hand probably slants a touch to the left. Regardless, the BBC as a whole is tied to an 'impartial' position, which essentially forces it to interpret all events from a 'centrist' position. As the 'centre' has shifted right over the last several decades, so has that 'impartial' analysis, particularly on economics/business items.
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Offline cloggypop

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2017, 04:12:09 pm »


Isn't the BBC and media generally supposed to be left wing?

No.

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2017, 04:14:18 pm »
Isn't the BBC and media generally supposed to be left wing? If that is the case then why would they bother helping the Tories?

The BBC are supposed to be impartial. And given that both 'sides' seem to hate them, they're probably doing OK with that.
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Offline kennedy81

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Re: A case for the Tories in this coming election!
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2017, 04:15:38 pm »
Isn't the BBC and media generally supposed to be left wing? If that is the case then why would they bother helping the Tories?
I don't know where this crazy notion comes from. I suppose it comes from the media being regarded as 'liberal', not to be confused with 'left-wing' which is not the same thing.