Author Topic: Right and Left?  (Read 6425 times)

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Right and Left?
« on: March 11, 2017, 11:04:14 pm »
Has this definition kind of lost its meaning in political opinion given this rise of anti-politics and popularism
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 11:05:03 pm »
No.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 11:12:35 pm »
No
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Offline GreatEx

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 11:17:46 pm »
Au contraire, they're the only two words that matter any more.

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"Ignore him, he's a lefty libtard snowflake. "

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Offline kesey

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2017, 01:05:48 am »
There is no right or left .

I really can't believe that you are all falling for this slight of hand ... lose your power ... thing .

YOU have the POWER to CHANGE !

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Offline Redman0151

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2017, 01:18:53 am »
Not really, there's still obvious differences.

The problem is that the internet has polarised everything and act like there's 2 distinct camps and no middle ground or agreement.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2017, 06:11:15 am »
It's pretty simple really:

1. Give a shit about other people even though you have no skin in the game - left wing 

2. Give a shit about yourself and those closely related but fuck the rest - right wing.

3. Of course there's the far left - who forget there are actual people involved and want everyone to confirm to their political ideals.

4. And the far right who go beyond looking after their immediate circle and actively attack those outside it.

5. And finally - the majority of people who are somewhere in the middle getting on with their lives. They think the other four groups are for the most part, a bunch of c*nts.
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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2017, 07:09:30 am »
It's pretty simple really:

1. Give a shit about other people even though you have no skin in the game - left wing 

2. Give a shit about yourself and those closely related but fuck the rest - right wing.

3. Of course there's the far left - who forget there are actual people involved and want everyone to confirm to their political ideals.

4. And the far right who go beyond looking after their immediate circle and actively attack those outside it.

5. And finally - the majority of people who are somewhere in the middle getting on with their lives. They think the other four groups are for the most part, a bunch of c*nts.

Holy shit
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2017, 07:32:39 am »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2017, 07:50:30 am »
Thank you.

Is that genuinely what you think of the left?
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2017, 08:42:35 am »
Is that genuinely what you think of the left?

The centre has always been the correct answer.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2017, 08:45:48 am »
Is that genuinely what you think of the left?

It's a continuum and most people don't spend their lives obsessing over 'Politics' with a capital P. I'm a democratic socialist so on the left and politically active (as my regular posts in the News forum demonstrates) so I have no idea what your question even means. I'm self aware enough to know that my interest in politics and history isn't shared by most voters - they vote on issues, on the basis of family and social history/tradition and their own personal circumstances. The public's trust in politicians in general is low and always has been:

Quote
“Public trust in politicians remains steadfastly low [21% in the survey], at the very bottom of the list of professions alongside Journalists, Government Ministers and Estate Agents. But it’s good to remind ourselves that this is not a “new crisis of trust” - from this long-running survey we can see that public trust has been an issue for politicians for at least the past 33 years.

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3685/Politicians-are-still-trusted-less-than-estate-agents-journalists-and-bankers.aspx

So while I don't think 'the left' (ie politically active left wingers of all varieties) in general are 'a bunch of c*nts', I'm well aware that a large proportion of 'normal' voters think we are.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 08:48:15 am by Alan_X »
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2017, 09:06:42 am »
There is no right or left .

I really can't believe that you are all falling for this slight of hand ... lose your power ... thing .

YOU have the POWER to CHANGE !



That's what I mean - the lines are so blurred that it's starting to be difficult to know who you agree with or not.

There are lots of Conservatives that believe their legacy of Conservatism - leave things as they are - seek balance. Some/most of those might well have voted against Brexit, which we agree with - for different reasons - social ones - but that joint cause/belief remains. Then you have 'left' leaning people that voted for Brexit that have more in common with Right and Far-Right Tories and UKIP voters that voted for Brexit for a variety of reasons. Then you have others that are just trying to make a quick buck, followed by those that seek to leave for totally anti 'socialist' reasons. On top of that you have social and political mobility, strategic voting, moving borders, most parts of Labour and Tory policies being the same (Depending on who and who isn't in charge) then you have vastly differing views within the actual Parties themselves - moderate and reasonable Conservatives totally at odds with their Far-Right counterparts, pretty far-left groups in the Labour Party totally add odds with the 'Moderates' or 'Right-Leaning' counterparts in their own party. Then you have the Lib Dems that never seem to have much of a clue of what their aims are and even within that Party there are divisions and dissension and then you have the Lords that are a set of groups from areas that totally agree with the populace and/or Parties and those that are totally at odds with pretty much everyone. On top of that you have a mischievous/nasty/evil/stupid/lying* (Delete as applicable, depending on your position within the political matrix and how much you actually give a toss) followed by 'Fake News' and general misinformation on Twitter, Facebook and other media sources.

No wonder it's such a mess.
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2017, 09:28:20 am »
The basic definition is still valid, even if the issues are less prevalent at the moment in the face of Brexit and Trump.

Broadly I suppose it centres on the role and extent of the state in the economic and social life of a country - the left believing in a strong state with a large role in driving the agenda, the right believing in a limited state with more of a role for the free market.

The question is though whether Brexit/Trump, or more broadly the effect of globalisation, has led to a new and perhaps more dominant dividing line. One the one side are those comfortable with a globalised world, enjoy freedom of movement and the diverse communities they live in. On the other side are those suspicious of globalisation and change - these tend to be older, less educated and more interested in things like national identify. Importantly these groups contains people from both sides of the left-right divide - the former centrists, social liberals and free marketers, the latter social conservatives, the traditional left and far right nationalists.

Offline Robinred

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2017, 10:05:02 am »
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/11/Frottage-assange-shameless-illiberal-alliance?CMP=share_btn_link


Nick Cohen nails it - as usual.

"The old rules about probity in public life are being shredded at both ends of the political spectrum
Nigel Frottage’s social call on Julian Assange’s hideaway in the Ecuadorian embassy was a clarifying moment that ought to have flooded light on a dark world. To those who are willing to see, it revealed that far left and far right are now one movement.

“All isms are wasms,” quipped a Foreign Office wag as fascism and communism united in the Hitler-Stalin pact. That wasn’t true in 1939, when Berlin and Moscow found their shared belief in the “ism” of totalitarianism was greater than the difference between left and right, and isn’t true now. There is an “ism” – illiberalism – an ideology that has been growing for years. Do not underestimate its force. Illiberals now control the White House and the Kremlin. You can track their influence in the Brexit right’s contempt for education and expertise and the Labour left’s alliances with the counter-Enlightenment.

The old division between left and right makes as little sense now as it did in 1939. To realise its futility consider that in conventional terms Frottage is a politician who manoeuvres in the grey zone before the right and the far right. He exploits chauvinism and plays on racial fears but is always careful not to incite violence directly. Assange is a man of what I once called the Chomskyan left and what modern critics call the regressive left. He is against the west, often for good reasons. Like so many of his kind, however, he will then ally with any force, however reactionary, which opposes the west as well.

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The supposed political differences between the closet racist and alleged rapist in no way prevented them becoming chums. Why would they? Frottage is an inspiration to and friend of Donald Trump. He admires Putin’s contempt for human rights and his hatred of the EU. If Wikileaks were dedicated to exposing injustice wherever it occurred, I would have no difficulties with it. But in characteristic regressive style Assange provides support services to the gangster capitalists of the new Russian empire. He proved his loyalty when he published hacked emails from the Clinton campaign, thus helping Putin and Frottage’s preferred candidate win the US presidency.

Extremes merge. Red bleeds into black. Everywhere, the institutions of liberal society are denounced as a lying conspiracy, the better for illiberal movements to propagandise their own vast lies.

You catch the futility of the old labels if you can manage to sit through All Governments Lie , which had its London premiere last week. It is an unintentionally fascinating piece of propaganda because any one of at least three dictatorial or otherwise illiberal movements might have made it. The camera pans over the offices of the New York Times, CNN and the Washington Post, making sure that the viewer knows that liberal organisations rather than Fox News or Breitbart are the liars’ accomplices. The work of a Donald Trump supporter, perhaps, determined to expose liberal globalists? But then the producers try to persuade the audience that there is a monolith called “the media”. This idea made little sense in the 20th century, for what did journalists at the New Yorker or Financial Times have in common with journalists on the National Enquirer or Sun? Nothing that anyone could see. It is a blatant falsehood now that the web allows billions to produce their own media.

Nevertheless, the fantasy of “the media” is popular with Russian propagandists. They want to say that the “Russophobic” and monolithic western media are biased against them because they hate Russians, rather than because of the policies and practices of the Putin tsarocracy.

“News outlets are more propagandistic than journalistic,” a lugubrious voice explains, before the camera cuts to a distinguished-looking gentleman who opines that the elite in Britain and the US maintain power by controlling “attitudes and opinions”. The distinguished-looking gentleman is Noam Chomsky expounding on an old theme: his propaganda model of journalism. Rather than looking at why revolutionary socialism failed, Chomsky and his many adherents on the defeated radical left say the masses are brainwashed into voting against their interests by journalists, who are under the control of rich proprietors and advertisers.

All journalists, that is. Not this or that news organisation but the media as a malign totality. I have many objections to the view that democratic consent is “manufactured”. The strongest was provided by the supposedly brainwashed US electorate last November. Trump received just two endorsements from the editorial boards of America’s 100 largest newspapers. He still won. Needless to add, Chomsky has now joined Assange, Frottage and Trump’s march on Moscow and makes a mockery of his supposed opposition to propaganda by appearing on Putin’s propaganda networks.

Trump’s victory has not only disproved the conspiracy theories of the defeated of the 20th century, it has shown how useful they can be to victors of the 21st. Putin and Trump want to cast themselves as victims, the better to justify their aggression. The fantasy of a monolithic media manufacturing falsehoods serves a dual purpose: it blackens truthful accounts of their crimes and corruptions and justifies their lies. Supporters who are primed to believe fact-checking is an illusion and all objective evidence is contaminated will happily believe that Russian-backed rebels in Ukraine did not shoot down a Malaysian jet or that Obama ordered taps on Trump’s phone.

If I had been writing a year ago, I would have concluded with wet words on the need for liberal societies to examine their faults. We must, I would have said with a pious air, understand why we have gone so badly wrong that men like these can come to power. And of course we should.

But concerned platitudes about the need to redress liberal failures miss that Putin, Trump, Frottage, Assange and their many imitators are not always brainwashing their followers in a Chomskyan fashion. Their admirers positively welcome their tearing up of the old rules on honesty in public discourse, their contempt for facts, for human rights, for foreigners and all others who can be defamed by a demagogue on the make. They want a strongman who can pummel his enemies. They are entertained by his brags and impressed by how well he cheats. Many of the men among them revel in a leader who can boast about grabbing pussy or will pass a law allowing them to beat their wives. Many of the women want a real man in charge.

As I keep saying, the problem is not the liars, it is the millions who want to be lied to."
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 10:06:57 am by Robinred »
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2017, 10:26:01 am »
Theres a lot of confusion between someone being politically Left wing and a left wing trade union member.
A left wing trade union member is a Militant. they are willing to stand and fight against exploitation etc.
I doubt they all share all the political views of the Left wingers in politics.

It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Offline thejbs

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2017, 11:42:18 am »
Right is left.
War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2017, 11:44:57 am »
Is that genuinely what you think of the left?
In general terms where is it wrong?

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2017, 02:46:18 pm »
The centre has always been the correct answer.

If you're cisgender, heterosexual and white sure. It's been pretty shitty for pretty much everyone else.

It's a continuum and most people don't spend their lives obsessing over 'Politics' with a capital P. I'm a democratic socialist so on the left and politically active (as my regular posts in the News forum demonstrates) so I have no idea what your question even means. I'm self aware enough to know that my interest in politics and history isn't shared by most voters - they vote on issues, on the basis of family and social history/tradition and their own personal circumstances. The public's trust in politicians in general is low and always has been:

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3685/Politicians-are-still-trusted-less-than-estate-agents-journalists-and-bankers.aspx

So while I don't think 'the left' (ie politically active left wingers of all varieties) in general are 'a bunch of c*nts', I'm well aware that a large proportion of 'normal' voters think we are.

I should have specified "far left" originally.

The far left is about equality. It's about making sure that society takes care of it's most vulnerable (LGBQT), corrects the wrongs of the past  (institutional racism) and gives the same opportunities to everyone (feminism). Obviously it's different from country to country in some cases (far left in the US wants an NHS, UK has one) and aligns in others (free tuition).

If you start with "the far left is about equality" then the further right you go the less that holds true. Modern liberalism is leftish but only a little bit. A liberal for example wants things to get better for people, but within the existing structure. So less black kids dying at the hands of cops, but no strong movement towards ending the systemic racism responsible for it.

The centre is more or less an "everything is fine" position, no drastic changes. There are people in the centre who voted Tory/Trump, which means a lot of what the left stands for isn't really important to them.

So I guess my overall point is this idea that the far left are the ones who don't care about people rings false. Is it a preachy, aggressive place full of obnoxious assholes? Sure, and I don't exclude myself from that. But it's the far left that are trying to do the most good, and after centuries of racism, sexism and homophobia, people aren't willing to wait for progress any more.
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Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2017, 02:49:31 pm »
The far left prioritise ideology over people

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2017, 10:13:35 am »
The far left prioritise ideology over people

Not really. Most left wing ideology is based on people, equality, shared ownership etc. It all gets a bit muddled along the way sometimes but the main thrust of it is about the public good rather than private profit.
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2017, 10:50:32 am »
Not really. Most left wing ideology is based on people, equality, shared ownership etc. It all gets a bit muddled along the way sometimes but the main thrust of it is about the public good rather than private profit.

Take the example of the current Labour Party; the leadership has been taken over by the far left and are committed to a leader who is the most incompetent politician that I can ever remember in such a position.

Sure, most ideas coming from them pay lip service to what you’re talking about, but the people espousing them are incredibly unpopular with the public. Perhaps even worse than that, they are stubborn and have no self-awareness and refuse to resign despite facing record levels of disapproval and surefire electoral oblivion.

The reason they don’t care might have something to do with their contempt for parliamentary process and I get the impression they are content to turn the greatest vehicle for socialism in Britain I’ve ever known into a protest party.

I genuinely think Corbyn and his lackeys would rather see some sort of revolution (that's never going to happen) than form a government that does things for people that need them, and as such I can’t see how you can say far leftists want to improve the public good. Maybe except for the Tories or a tiny minority of super-rich.

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2017, 11:39:29 am »
Take the example of the current Labour Party; the leadership has been taken over by the far left and are committed to a leader who is the most incompetent politician that I can ever remember in such a position.

Sure, most ideas coming from them pay lip service to what you’re talking about, but the people espousing them are incredibly unpopular with the public. Perhaps even worse than that, they are stubborn and have no self-awareness and refuse to resign despite facing record levels of disapproval and surefire electoral oblivion.

The reason they don’t care might have something to do with their contempt for parliamentary process and I get the impression they are content to turn the greatest vehicle for socialism in Britain I’ve ever known into a protest party.

I genuinely think Corbyn and his lackeys would rather see some sort of revolution (that's never going to happen) than form a government that does things for people that need them, and as such I can’t see how you can say far leftists want to improve the public good. Maybe except for the Tories or a tiny minority of super-rich.

Swap the Labour leadership with the 'activists' in the Democrats, the Tories for the Republicans and Corbyn for Sanders and that's the US far left discussion in a nutshell. An obsession with idealism built on pandering to what people on the far left would rather hear, than what would actually have a chance of working in line with economic and political reason. Fixation on nitpicking at the ideological purity of those on the broader left rather than have any kind of look at the viability of their own methods.

In that sense the far right and the far left have a few things in common. Neither is particularly fond of learning from history, each prioritizes a theory of how the world should work as opposed to the methods that have brought the world forward, both love a scapegoat (immigrants and millionaires, 'politicians') and an almost Mourinho-esque us-vs-them siege mentality.
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2017, 12:29:29 pm »
At the very least it is useful to split Social and Economic classification. The natural correlation between the two is far looser now it has been historically. Take Cameron, economically a mentalist, but very liberal for a Tory in social terms. Similar some of the left's dinosaurs are socially illiberal.

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2017, 03:49:17 pm »
If you're cisgender, heterosexual and white sure. It's been pretty shitty for pretty much everyone else.

That's a bit unfair, surely?

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2017, 04:22:16 pm »
That's a bit unfair, surely?

Do you think life is as easy for minorities, homosexuals, transpeople, and women as it is for white men? I'm not blaming anyone or implying nobody has problems, but I think that's a fair statement.

The problem America has is the liberals here are mostly content with things the way they are. There's a cause or two worth fighting for, but most are quite happy with things as long as they're ok. It's easiest to see in terms of Black Lives Matter. People don't like seeing black teenagers getting shot by cops. But when the movement tackles systemic racism and highlights white privilege a lot of liberals shit themselves.

It's basically "I'm ok, and I'm a good person, so all is well".
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Offline Purple Red

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2017, 04:28:29 pm »
Do you think life is as easy for minorities, homosexuals, transpeople, and women as it is for white men? I'm not blaming anyone or implying nobody has problems, but I think that's a fair statement.

The problem America has is the liberals here are mostly content with things the way they are. There's a cause or two worth fighting for, but most are quite happy with things as long as they're ok. It's easiest to see in terms of Black Lives Matter. People don't like seeing black teenagers getting shot by cops. But when the movement tackles systemic racism and highlights white privilege a lot of liberals shit themselves.

It's basically "I'm ok, and I'm a good person, so all is well".

Of course it isn't as easy but I thought you were talking about centre of the spectrum beliefs in general. America is a bit different in that regard so I think we may have got our wires crossed. My general belief is that centrist politics in its proper form is a good template for building a democratic, egalitarian society that tolerates difference.

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2017, 04:28:42 pm »
Do you think life is as easy for minorities, homosexuals, transpeople, and women as it is for white men? I'm not blaming anyone or implying nobody has problems, but I think that's a fair statement.

The problem America has is the liberals here are mostly content with things the way they are. There's a cause or two worth fighting for, but most are quite happy with things as long as they're ok. It's easiest to see in terms of Black Lives Matter. People don't like seeing black teenagers getting shot by cops. But when the movement tackles systemic racism and highlights white privilege a lot of liberals shit themselves.

It's basically "I'm ok, and I'm a good person, so all is well".

I think there's a lot of truth in this.

For a lot of liberals, their idea of fighting for equality is campaigning for James Bond to be black. But the serious problems are left untouched
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2017, 04:50:55 pm »
Of course it isn't as easy but I thought you were talking about centre of the spectrum beliefs in general. America is a bit different in that regard so I think we may have got our wires crossed. My general belief is that centrist politics in its proper form is a good template for building a democratic, egalitarian society that tolerates difference.

The ideal world is centrist and everybody is equal in it but the left in America has to achieve a lot just to pull the US to the middle. You're right, haha it's very different.

Certainly don't mean to imply that centrist people or centrism in general is racist/sexist or anything, by the way!
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2017, 05:24:50 pm »
The problem America has is the liberals here are mostly content with things the way they are.
It's basically "I'm ok, and I'm a good person, so all is well".

That's doing an awful lot of people a huge disservice. There's the cause (goal), and there's the method. It's bad form to conflate the two.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 05:32:00 pm by theMilkman »
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2017, 06:27:20 pm »
That's doing an awful lot of people a huge disservice. There's the cause (goal), and there's the method. It's bad form to conflate the two.

You're right it was too much of a blanket statement. But the number of people who's leftism ends with "I'd like cheaper healthcare for me and mine" is pretty significant I'd suggest
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2017, 06:36:00 pm »
You're right it was too much of a blanket statement. But the number of people who's leftism ends with "I'd like cheaper healthcare for me and mine" is pretty significant I'd suggest

Agreed, but that sounds much more like a human problem than a specifically leftist problem.
"But the most important thing that we all must remember is that this football club is much more important and bigger than anybody."~ King Kenny Dalglish

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2017, 08:05:59 pm »
Agreed, but that sounds much more like a human problem than a specifically leftist problem.

Sure, but the problem is when these people run the left and get in the way of true progressive policies.
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2017, 08:11:53 pm »
Au contraire, they're the only two words that matter any more.

"Ignore him, he's a far right racist troll."

"Ignore him, he's a lefty libtard snowflake. "

Political debate circa 2017.

Pretty much.

I just this minute got banned from heavily 'liberal' gaming forum NeoGAF for saying we should talk to people with right leaning views rather than vilify them. I got a fucking shit storm of abuse and banned, it's a microcosm of what America is like right now but it's not too much better over here.



The guy I was initially quoting also said the only culture white people have is oppressing minorities, it's no wonder Trump and Brexit happened.

Sad times.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 08:27:09 pm by Kashinoda »
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2017, 08:23:07 pm »
Sure, but the problem is when these people run the left and get in the way of true progressive policies.

Again, method and cause. Put someone who's not as irresponsible as Sanders in front of liberals and the vast majority would take him/her with both hands.
"But the most important thing that we all must remember is that this football club is much more important and bigger than anybody."~ King Kenny Dalglish

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2017, 08:57:54 pm »
Again, method and cause. Put someone who's not as irresponsible as Sanders in front of liberals and the vast majority would take him/her with both hands.

Someone like Hillary maybe? Apparently not. And irresponsible meaning?
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« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 09:15:08 pm by theMilkman »
"But the most important thing that we all must remember is that this football club is much more important and bigger than anybody."~ King Kenny Dalglish

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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2017, 09:15:56 pm »
Hillary's not part of the conversation anymore and a lot of her supporters would've gone for someone else if there were more options. It's not a binary choice of Hillary or Bernie anymore, it's back to the full spectrum.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/after-tensions-explode-in-nevada-its-time-for-sanders-to-be-honest-with-his-supporters/2016/05/18/f17c2468-1d2d-11e6-b6e0-c53b7ef63b45_story.html?utm_term=.0e8b8a9944ac

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bernie-sanderss-fiction-filled-campaign/2016/01/27/cd1b2866-c478-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.c2b97f368871

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2016/04/05/9-things-bernie-sanders-shouldve-known-about-but-didnt-in-that-daily-news-interview/

You said someone not as irresponsible as Bernie. They ran with Hillary. She lost. She was an insipid unlikeable flawed candidate. The personification of American liberalism, if you look at her words and actions across her career.
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2017, 09:56:44 pm »
You said someone not as irresponsible as Bernie. They ran with Hillary. She lost. She was an insipid unlikeable flawed candidate. The personification of American liberalism, if you look at her words and actions across her career.

Well, i didn't find her all that unlikable. Although likability means very little to me with politicians, they're there to do a job- they can be literal robots for all I care. And i'm not sure how you've arrived at a her being the personification of American liberalism- that's far too broad a spectrum.

In terms of policy- yes, Bernie was quite laughably bad. He couldn't even go into any kind of detail on why it was so important to 'break up the banks', or what that would do to the hundreds of thousands of people who work in the finance industry. No one is claiming Hillary is perfect, and I genuinely believe Biden or even Cuomo would've run the table on her. But again, she has very little to do with this. Go read all those WP articles i posted, especially the one about the NYDN interview. This one too from Paul Krugman on why so few economic policy experts wanted to have anything to do with Sanders.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/08/opinion/sanders-over-the-edge.html

Quote
Let me illustrate the point about issues by talking about bank reform.

The easy slogan here is “Break up the big banks.” It’s obvious why this slogan is appealing from a political point of view: Wall Street supplies an excellent cast of villains. But were big banks really at the heart of the financial crisis, and would breaking them up protect us from future crises?

Many analysts concluded years ago that the answers to both questions were no. Predatory lending was largely carried out by smaller, non-Wall Street institutions like Countrywide Financial; the crisis itself was centered not on big banks but on “shadow banks” like Lehman Brothers that weren’t necessarily that big. And the financial reform that President Obama signed in 2010 made a real effort to address these problems. It could and should be made stronger, but pounding the table about big banks misses the point.

Yet going on about big banks is pretty much all Mr. Sanders has done. On the rare occasions on which he was asked for more detail, he didn’t seem to have anything more to offer. And this absence of substance beyond the slogans seems to be true of his positions across the board.

When I say someone less irresponsible- i mean someone who represents the ideals that Bernie claims to stand for without the glaring faults of the man himself, faults which make him completely unappetizing to people who might otherwise be on the side of the more 'progressive' candidate. To a lot of people, whether you agree or not, he was a lot more irresponsible than she was and she was being pounded politically by both the far left, the right and the media.

You (and a lot on the far left) seem to see the choice as requiring base standard of ideological consistency (or however else you'd frame it). For me and a lot of people (not all Hillary supporters of course) it's preparation and knowledge. Hence for a lot of people Hillary cleared that base level, whatever her faults, and Sanders didn't. And she did get more votes.

I see a very simple solution for these 'progressive policies' you want. Go get someone who has Bernie-esque ideals but has also bothered to do their homework (and hope the center left doesn't find someone much more likable).
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 10:16:21 pm by theMilkman »
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Re: Right and Left?
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2017, 11:24:24 pm »
Well, i didn't find her all that unlikable. Although likability means very little to me with politicians, they're there to do a job- they can be literal robots for all I care. And i'm not sure how you've arrived at a her being the personification of American liberalism- that's far too broad a spectrum.

In terms of policy- yes, Bernie was quite laughably bad. He couldn't even go into any kind of detail on why it was so important to 'break up the banks', or what that would do to the hundreds of thousands of people who work in the finance industry. No one is claiming Hillary is perfect, and I genuinely believe Biden or even Cuomo would've run the table on her. But again, she has very little to do with this. Go read all those WP articles i posted, especially the one about the NYDN interview. This one too from Paul Krugman on why so few economic policy experts wanted to have anything to do with Sanders.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/08/opinion/sanders-over-the-edge.html

When I say someone less irresponsible- i mean someone who represents the ideals that Bernie claims to stand for without the glaring faults of the man himself, faults which make him completely unappetizing to people who might otherwise be on the side of the more 'progressive' candidate. To a lot of people, whether you agree or not, he was a lot more irresponsible than she was and she was being pounded politically by both the far left, the right and the media.

You (and a lot on the far left) seem to see the choice as requiring base standard of ideological consistency (or however else you'd frame it). For me and a lot of people (not all Hillary supporters of course) it's preparation and knowledge. Hence for a lot of people Hillary cleared that base level, whatever her faults, and Sanders didn't. And she did get more votes.

I see a very simple solution for these 'progressive policies' you want. Go get someone who has Bernie-esque ideals but has also bothered to do their homework (and hope the center left doesn't find someone much more likable).

If your issue is Bernie himself, that's fine. I'll never respect Hillary and if you feel the same about Bernie who am I to argue?

There was a Bernie-esque candidate for DNC Chair. He was undermined by Islamophobic rhetoric and ultimately lost to a traditional corporatist. The frontrunner for 2020 is looking like Cory "fucking" Booker. The party has seen the energy Bernie was able to tap into and outright turned it's back on those people. The majority of those people are LGBQT activists, BLM members, feminists. They've effectively told those people "we're not interested in your concerns".

It sounds harsh, and is probably unfair on the Elizabeth Warrens of the world, but it's true. As the Dems move away from the left they're moving away from the most vulnerable members of society. That's what the hard left in America mostly is. Gay people tired of discrimination. Poor people tired of Wall Street. Black people tired of being shot. Trans people tired of being told where to pee.
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