Author Topic: Show Me The Mané's Tedious Circular Argument Topic  (Read 24813 times)

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #80 on: February 8, 2017, 10:16:42 am »
One link for all those assertions.

Seems legit.

Well, with a shared currency there are certain obvious and practical issues they need to resolve. Which is what that report was an attempt to start to do - with no guarantee that any of what is proposed will be taken up by the democratically elected governments of the EU. It was written in 2015, it's played little part in any major inter-government discussions since. Additionally, and what increases the amusement factor to me, we are not in the eurozone and our commissioner actually lobbied for some of the proposals as they are beneficial to Britain's service industries.

There are those in Europe who push for a single state. Yes, of course there are. The national veto meant it was never an issue for us to be sucked into any attempt to create one. Bonkers stuff.

It will probably come as a bit of a surprise to people who believe in this superstate nonsense but it's not just the British who don't really fancy it that much. I can't speak for everyone but pretty much all of the Dutch that I know actually like being Dutch. Some of them are as proud of being Dutch as people are of being British. Going from the music and that I would imagine it's a similar story in France and Germany as well. I reckon even some Belgians are the same. I always find the us and them logic a bit lacking.

It's no surprise at all that "the Dutch enjoy being Dutch" - in fact its the same in every nation state. That's my point I suppose - there is no public appetite to join a european nation state anywhere and yet the political elites in France and Germany have been engineering exactly that.

We may have had a veto on some aspects of policy, yes, however it becomes irrelevant if, in another twenty years we would have had to make a decision between leaving and joining fully when the EU has a common border policy, foereign policy, currency, monetary and fiscal policy, defence organisation, legislature and judiciary. What else would be required in to actually qualify it as a "state" in your eyes?

As for the "single link" - I actually spend most of my time on the football end of the forum reading rather than contributing as I am absorbing some knowledge. On this topic, however, I have some knowledge and it seems obvious to me - as it should to anyone with any appreciation of the history of the EU that it has always been primarily a political project with the goal of establishing a federal European state. This is not particularly controversial and there is plenty of information out there.

At the moment you can catch Guy Verhofstad's interview on the BBC iPlayer on the Hardtalk programme where he makes it explicit that the goal for europe is a superstate with its own defence force. He even quotes Macron, the French presidential candidate, saying that the era of national sovereignty is over and that European sovereignty has to take its place. Sadly he blames nationality for  Europe's previous problems - and this is the driver behind the creation of the EU superstate.

I enjoy discussing these topics but we do have to ground them in reality otherwise its pointless.
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Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #81 on: February 8, 2017, 10:19:38 am »
I enjoy discussing these topics but we do have to ground them in reality otherwise its pointless.

You first
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Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #82 on: February 8, 2017, 10:29:20 am »
You first

Feel free to point out anything I have said that isn't either evidenced or - if no evidence could exist on that topic - that isn't a logical extension of the evidence that we do have.
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Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #83 on: February 8, 2017, 10:38:12 am »
Feel free to point out anything I have said that isn't either evidenced or - if no evidence could exist on that topic - that isn't a logical extension of the evidence that we do have.

Your insistence that we are on the verge of a European superstate is bollocks and you know it. There are people within the EU who think that it would be a good thing, Churchill would have agreed with them, but there are also just as many people who aren't the slightest bit interested in the idea and have the power to stop it in it's tracks.

Any proposal for a superstate would have to be approved by the member states and that is extremely unlikely to happen.

There are a lot of good arguments for the creation of a federal Europe and you never know, maybe one day people will be more in favour of it, but right now it's a non-starter and it's just a scare story for the Daily Express readers to worry about.

The UK is a state made up of other states and people seem quite attached to that but are up in arms about the idea of the UK being a state in a state made up of other states.
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Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #84 on: February 8, 2017, 10:41:14 am »
Your insistence that we are on the verge of a European superstate is bollocks and you know it. There are people within the EU who think that it would be a good thing, Churchill would have agreed with them, but there are also just as many people who aren't the slightest bit interested in the idea and have the power to stop it in it's tracks.

Any proposal for a superstate would have to be approved by the member states and that is extremely unlikely to happen.

There are a lot of good arguments for the creation of a federal Europe and you never know, maybe one day people will be more in favour of it, but right now it's a non-starter and it's just a scare story for the Daily Express readers to worry about.

The UK is a state made up of other states and people seem quite attached to that but are up in arms about the idea of the UK being a state in a state made up of other states.

OK, let's unpack that a little.

What structures do you feel are currently missing from the EU that would make the creation of a federal super-state a "non-starter"?

Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline Libertine

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #85 on: February 8, 2017, 10:42:08 am »
Sadly he blames nationality for  Europe's previous problems - and this is the driver behind the creation of the EU superstate.

No, he blames nationalism for Europe's previous problems.

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #86 on: February 8, 2017, 10:45:46 am »
OK, let's unpack that a little.

What structures do you feel are currently missing from the EU that would make the creation of a federal super-state a "non-starter"?

common border policy, foereign policy, currency, monetary and fiscal policy, defence organisation, legislature and judiciary

I love Verhofstad and his pan-European ideas, but, sadly, he is very much in a minority, even in pro-European circles.

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #87 on: February 8, 2017, 10:46:04 am »
OK, let's unpack that a little.

What structures do you feel are currently missing from the EU that would make the creation of a federal super-state a "non-starter"?

Let's not.
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Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #88 on: February 8, 2017, 10:51:38 am »
No, he blames nationalism for Europe's previous problems.

Oops - typo - yes you are of course correct my apologies.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

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Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #89 on: February 8, 2017, 10:53:36 am »
Let's not.

Hmm it seems you are happy to fling around pithy little comments but come a bit unstuck when asked to.justify them.

Fair enough - file me under "unconvinced".
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #90 on: February 8, 2017, 10:56:05 am »
Hmm it seems you are happy to fling around pithy little comments but come a bit unstuck when asked to.justify them.

Fair enough - file me under "unconvinced".

I know what I'm filing you under

arguing with someone like you is as pointless as arguing with climate deniers, 9/11 conspiracy theorists etc

If you voted leave to avoid an EU superstate you're as mad as the woman with the bananas
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Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #91 on: February 8, 2017, 10:59:49 am »
I love Verhofstad and his pan-European ideas, but, sadly, he is very much in a minority, even in pro-European circles.

Maybe so - but its not a question of whether he is in the minority - just as Trump is in a minority of the Republican party what matters is where the power lies.

The creation of the EU has never been driven by populism.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #92 on: February 8, 2017, 11:01:41 am »
I know what I'm filing you under

arguing with someone like you is as pointless as arguing with climate deniers, 9/11 conspiracy theorists etc

If you voted leave to avoid an EU superstate you're as mad as the woman with the bananas

OK if you say so - i guess our discussion is concluded then.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline itsaknockuyt

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #93 on: February 8, 2017, 11:01:45 am »
The arithmetic is not that clear cut. Especially for Labour MPs whose support is predominantly remain. If Brexit goes tits up, the current crop of MPs will be toast if they voted for it. We have a representative democracy where MPs are supposed to represent the best interests of their constituents, not necessarily their views. Take Capital Punishment as the hackneyed example.

Probably a good example. Imagine we had such a referendum on the death penalty that was passed 52/48 even though most of MPs would personally be against it. Imagine it was then confirmed that the only way we could do the executions was in an extreme way - public beheading or burning people at the stake.  It could've been some people had warned of the possibility before the vote but were dismissed as "project fear". Would it be unreasonable down the line to look at things again if they turned out this bad, or would this be "going against the will of the people"?

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #94 on: February 8, 2017, 11:05:25 am »
Maybe so - but its not a question of whether he is in the minority - just as Trump is in a minority of the Republican party what matters is where the power lies.

Verhofstad has very little power. His group in the European parliament is only the fourth largest, and his own party has just three MEPs (and they're not doing much better in Belgium either). He rose to prominence when he was selected as the parliament's lead Brexit negotiator, but that was just to piss off the Tories. :)

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #95 on: February 8, 2017, 11:20:09 am »
OK, let's unpack that a little.

What structures do you feel are currently missing from the EU that would make the creation of a federal super-state a "non-starter"?

Firstly, such a super state has to be opt in. Like Schengen, you have to actively choose to be in it. If not, you're not in it. If you're not in it, why is it any of your business if others choose to be? Do you have similar issues when countries in America decide they want closer cooperation?
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Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #97 on: February 8, 2017, 11:27:24 am »
Verhofstad has very little power. His group in the European parliament is only the fourth largest, and his own party has just three MEPs (and they're not doing much better in Belgium either). He rose to prominence when he was selected as the parliament's lead Brexit negotiator, but that was just to piss off the Tories. :)

Absolutely - and he was a good choice for that. And I agree he one of the key Euro-federalists. In my opinion he certainly represents a prominent strand of thinking amongst the EU architects although it is true to say that Brexit has significantly damaged previous plans.

What makes it apparent for me that the goal for a federal Europe is still alive is the complete lack of concession to keep Britain within the fold. Cameron, in the celebrated phrase, went asking for nothing and came back with less. Now they have appointed Verhofstadt to lead Brexit negotiations who is adamant about maintaining the four freedoms - which is fair enough but they are all characteristic of a nation state which is why the EU are desperate to cling on to them.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline Sangria

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #98 on: February 8, 2017, 11:33:07 am »
Absolutely - and he was a good choice for that. And I agree he one of the key Euro-federalists. In my opinion he certainly represents a prominent strand of thinking amongst the EU architects although it is true to say that Brexit has significantly damaged previous plans.

What makes it apparent for me that the goal for a federal Europe is still alive is the complete lack of concession to keep Britain within the fold. Cameron, in the celebrated phrase, went asking for nothing and came back with less. Now they have appointed Verhofstadt to lead Brexit negotiations who is adamant about maintaining the four freedoms - which is fair enough but they are all characteristic of a nation state which is why the EU are desperate to cling on to them.

How desperate you are to claim that this and that signals a nation state. The EU has a flag too, which is also characteristic of a nation state (and is one of the totems of a nation state, cf, the US). Are you up in arms when the Ryder Cup rolls along and one of the sides is represented by the blue flag and stars?
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Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #99 on: February 8, 2017, 11:36:21 am »
How desperate you are to claim that this and that signals a nation state. The EU has a flag too, which is also characteristic of a nation state (and is one of the totems of a nation state, cf, the US). Are you up in arms when the Ryder Cup rolls along and one of the sides is represented by the blue flag and stars?

Not really desperate at all - I just recognise that when something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's likely to be a little waddling bird that swims around eating bread.

I'm just puzzled by the reality distortion that some people have when discussing the EU and Brexit.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #100 on: February 8, 2017, 11:38:02 am »
Not really desperate at all - I just recognise that when something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's likely to be a little waddling bird that swims around eating bread.

I'm just puzzled by the reality distortion that some people have when discussing the EU and Brexit.

Were you outraged by Schengen as well? Because that was something that was opt in, that we didn't opt into. Did you demand that the Schengen zone be dissolved?

BTW, what's happened to your Wallingtonian account?
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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #101 on: February 8, 2017, 11:43:49 am »
Not really desperate at all - I just recognise that when something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's likely to be a little waddling bird that swims around eating bread.

I'm just puzzled by the reality distortion that some people have when discussing the EU and Brexit.
My reality is distorted by living in continental Europe for the last 16 years. You are talking bollocks.

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #102 on: February 8, 2017, 11:58:40 am »
Were you outraged by Schengen as well? Because that was something that was opt in, that we didn't opt into. Did you demand that the Schengen zone be dissolved?

BTW, what's happened to your Wallingtonian account?

No, why would I be? Other countries can do what they like.

Someone else mentioned about Wallingtonian (cant remember if it was you?) - I had a look through his old posts - he had similar views to me but came from an economics background and seemed to be about 20 years older.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #103 on: February 8, 2017, 12:01:04 pm »
My reality is distorted by living in continental Europe for the last 16 years. You are talking bollocks.

I'm not really sure what extra authority living in continental Europe gives you when discussing the political ambitions of the EU but we will have to agree to disagree.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #104 on: February 8, 2017, 12:13:39 pm »
Let's just settle this, for the EU to be reformed into a 'super-state' would require the consent of the constituent member states.

Such a formation cannot be forced on any members, all of whom in possession of a decisive veto.

Case closed.

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #105 on: February 8, 2017, 12:18:01 pm »
I can see you are quite animated about this - there is plenty of information out there about the origins of the EU and its political ambitions. I can recommend a couple of sources regarding Jean Monnet which you might find helpful.

http://www.historiasiglo20.org/europe/monnet.htm

Stop being so patronising - I am very knowledgable about EU Law, the Directive on Free Movement etc etc.

I don't need your help in finding sources - thanks.
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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #106 on: February 8, 2017, 12:18:31 pm »
Let's just settle this, for the EU to be reformed into a 'super-state' would require the consent of the constituent member states.

Such a formation cannot be forced on any members, all of whom in possession of a decisive veto.

Case closed.

Really is as simple as this, no idea what the fuck he's on about.

If he really voted leave based on the fiction that a European super state is just around the corner I don't really know what to say.
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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #107 on: February 8, 2017, 12:20:22 pm »
Thats not my understanding - its been quite clear since the inception of the EU that the end goal was a superstate which is the direction in which the project has been heading.

The Five Presidents report reaffirms that consolidated European Monetary Union - and thereby a common monetary and fiscal policy is the end goal.

Along with a president, commision, legal structure through the ECJ and proposals for a European Army and foreign and defence policy there isnt really much more that is required in order to qualify as a federal state.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

And of course this is borne out by the four freedoms of the single market which have been designed to characterise those of a single state.

There may be arguments for becoming part of such a body but i cant see how anyone could deny that is the goal. They havent been particularly secretive about it.

Your understanding is wrong.  As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, any one of the Member States can veto - they have that right.  That stops it being a super state.
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Offline zebenzui

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #108 on: February 8, 2017, 12:24:30 pm »
I wish Scotland could veto any stupid shit the union tries to do.

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #109 on: February 8, 2017, 12:44:45 pm »
Stop being so patronising - I am very knowledgable about EU Law, the Directive on Free Movement etc etc.

I don't need your help in finding sources - thanks.

Then stop posting comments like this:

What the fuck are you going on about?

What European Super State?

I live in Liverpool and my constituency (indeed the whole region) voted remain - so how the fuck are we being represented?  (For what it is worth my actual MP ignored Corbyn last week).

Once other EU countries see the shite deal we are going to get - what makes you think they will all want to leave?

Centuries??????? That's no use to all of us is it?

and then complaining when you get a polite response.

If you want a sensible discussion about a complex subject I'm happy to oblige.
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Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #110 on: February 8, 2017, 12:48:02 pm »
The point about national vetoes is that they actually have to be enacted by politicians in the nation countries - and the EU is heading towards an increasingly integrated structure where that will become more and more difficult.

That is, of course, where such vetoes have not been stripped away by successive treaties such as Lisbon - which was not put to voters in individual countries apart from Ireland - who rejected it and then accepted it after a second referendum was conducted.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #111 on: February 8, 2017, 12:52:43 pm »
Hmm it seems you are happy to fling around pithy little comments but come a bit unstuck when asked to.justify them.

Fair enough - file me under "unconvinced".

There's a mighty big mirror you should be looking at.

Maybe so - but its not a question of whether he is in the minority - just as Trump is in a minority of the Republican party what matters is where the power lies.

The creation of the EU has never been driven by populism.

Each nation having a veto prevents a superstate forming. No matter what machinations are performed the nations cannot be forced to cede power.

Not really desperate at all - I just recognise that when something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's likely to be a little waddling bird that swims around eating bread.

I'm just puzzled by the reality distortion that some people have when discussing the EU and Brexit.

Yet you seem unable to answer any of the many rebuttals to your many delusions.


Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #112 on: February 8, 2017, 12:53:41 pm »
Yet you seem unable to answer any of the many rebuttals to your many delusions.

Please point out a rebuttal I havent answered and I will do so.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline classycarra

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Re: Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #113 on: February 8, 2017, 12:54:48 pm »
We may have had a veto on some aspects of policy, yes, however it becomes irrelevant if, in another twenty years we would have had to make a decision between leaving and joining fully when the EU has a common border policy, foereign policy, currency, monetary and fiscal policy, defence organisation, legislature and judiciary. What else would be required in to actually qualify it as a "state" in your eyes?

...

I enjoy discussing these topics but we do have to ground them in reality otherwise its pointless.

Haha. You remain as patronising and as keen on circular arguments as before. Each time someone calls you out, you slightly change the goalpost of your argument for the sake of endlessly going on, while massaging your ego that you're an excellent arguer (you refer to logic frequently, but completely lack it).

This post is one of my faves of yours. Patronising others by suggesting they aren't grounded in reality, then bringing up a hypothetical situation in 20 years that you pretend is somehow inevitable. All this, despite lacking any evidence in favour of it and being presented with simple enough evidence against (including a veto you were keen to dismiss). But yes, it's us who needs to stay grounded in reality.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Show Me The Mané's Tedious Circular Argument Topic
« Reply #114 on: February 8, 2017, 02:10:39 pm »
Then stop posting comments like this:

and then complaining when you get a polite response.

If you want a sensible discussion about a complex subject I'm happy to oblige.

Well done for telling a lawyer she knows fuck all about the law. I assume from that you are a lawyer of some kind?
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Offline SP

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Re: Show Me The Mané's Tedious Circular Argument Topic
« Reply #115 on: February 8, 2017, 02:12:07 pm »
Well done for telling a lawyer she knows fuck all about the law. I assume from that you are a lawyer of some kind?

Barrack room kind.

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Show Me The Mané's Tedious Circular Argument Topic
« Reply #116 on: February 8, 2017, 02:24:46 pm »
Wow - well that's an interesting response.

I see that I have upset the wrong people talking about the wrong subjects - OK message understood, I'll leave you to carry on discussing the topic as you wish.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Show Me The Mané's Tedious Circular Argument Topic
« Reply #117 on: February 8, 2017, 02:27:03 pm »
*lightbulb emoji*
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Show Me The Exit

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Re: Show Me The Mané's Tedious Circular Argument Topic
« Reply #118 on: February 8, 2017, 02:28:17 pm »
Oops - Red Soldier posted at the same time - sorry my previous message wasnt directed at you.

I suppose my response would be that it was the poorer, more working class, less educated members of our society who were inordinatedly concerned with the influx of cheap labour from the continent and I think thats what the polls and voting patterns reflected.

Cheers.
Mate, with all due respect, you are an absolute fucking fruit case -MOZ

Seriously mate - You post such utter fucking gash with such conviction it's quite spell binding. - Alan_X

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Show Me The Mané's Tedious Circular Argument Topic
« Reply #119 on: February 8, 2017, 02:29:57 pm »
I see that I have bored the shit out of everyone by talking utter Horlicks...
get thee to the library before the c*nts close it down

we are a bunch of twats commenting on a website.