Topic: Show Me The Mané's Tedious Circular Argument Topic

[classycarra]

I don't understand. Offer incentives to stay? That's not going to happen.

You said if the EU had the knowledge that the UK was going to have a second referendum, they would be sure to offer the absolute worst possible offer so those voting in the second referendum would reject the proposal.

I said that there is also the possibility that, with the knowledge that the UK was going to have a second referendum, the EU might make a proposal (to ultimately stay) that would appeal to the British people.

My point was referring to the possibility of a second referendum, offering several options referendum, rather than a binary take it or leave it one.

[classycarra]

I think May has a mandate for Hard Brexit whereas you do not. I think the Tory Manifesto pledge you quoted to “work together with our European partners” was not a sufficient mandate to enact subsequent European treaties whereas you do. Those "mandates" would have enabled our entry into the Eurozone which would have ceeded Parliamentary soveriegnty in all but name (as we have recently seen in Greece)

So if we disagree, it can’t be the case that “you either have it or you don’t” – I’m sure we would both agree whether or not Theresas May had Herpes for example. So how do we decide?

Hmm yes, that is a thinker. We either have to decide (for your arguments pleasure) between:

The objective, binary, evidenced reality that there either is or is not a mandate for hard brexit vs. siding with you that there can be a mandate as long as your mental gymnastics are allow you to remain in denial.

[Show Me The Exit]

Hmm yes, that is a thinker. We either have to decide (for your arguments pleasure) between:

The objective, binary, evidenced reality that there either is or is not a mandate for hard brexit vs. siding with you that there can be a mandate as long as your mental gymnastics are allow you to remain in denial.

Yes, that is a "thinker" - as you say I am a good "arguer" - many thanks, do please keep keyboarding. 

[Show Me The Exit]

Does help to not base yourself in alternative reality when discussing it, otherwise people start wondering whether you'd keel over in horror at the 'centrist' economist, who wrote a substantial piece of academic work praising Brown's (and Darling's) management of the economy and response to the economic crash, playing a big role in shaping Corbyn's economic proposals and which are in turn based upon those Balls made. Corbyn and McDonnell consulting the people they did is something I've praised on here in the past btw. So if you're going to try and divvy up the Labour party between 'leftists' and 'centrists' on economics, let's not pretend you've a strong track record of getting things right for us to trust your judgement. From your quaintly Kipper view of the Five Presidents' Report to the idea that Corbyn is going to present "something that the “centrists” who have a similar economic policy to the Tories would not be able to do", I'm not seeing much support for you to be trying to take the piss on here.

I'm not sure I follow...

[classycarra]

I'm not sure I follow...

That figures. It was a post about your self-awareness

[Show Me The Exit]

That figures. It was a post about your self-awareness

Thanks - you are a good figurer. 

[classycarra]

Yes, that is a "thinker" - as you say I am a good "arguer" - many thanks, do please keep keyboarding. 

Your continued and varied misunderstanding of this sentence about your comprehension skills (across two threads) is the gift of irony that keeps giving!

It's clear that for all of your self-aggrandising, and belief you are a capable arguer, you lack even simple comprehension skills.

[Red-Soldier]

That figures. It was a post about your self-awareness

 

[Trada]

Under the rules right now the next Labour leader will just be a new Tory kiss ass.

The choice should be taken away from the PLP and given to the members.

fuck the PLP. 

[Banquo's Ghost]

fuck the PLP.

I shouldn't worry. You and those who think like you have fucked any meaningful attempt at a Parliamentary Labour Party for a generation or more.

[filopastry]

Under the rules right now the next Labour leader will just be a new Tory kiss ass.

The choice should be taken away from the PLP and given to the members.

fuck the PLP. 

Not like the current leadership, then.

The Tories must still be reeling from Corbyn's brutal opposition to Brexit.

[classycarra]

Under the rules right now the next Labour leader will just be a new Tory kiss ass.

The choice should be taken away from the PLP and given to the members.

fuck the PLP. 

With respect, I'd rather it wasn't.

Otherwise we might have the leadership of the party solely determined by recent influxes of half-arsed Green supporters, who only very occasionally get themselves on board with the idea of opposing the Tories. And unfortunately usually do it in a daft way.

[Red Beret]

Under the rules right now the next Labour leader will just be a new Tory kiss ass.

The choice should be taken away from the PLP and given to the members.

fuck the PLP.

Sorry Trada but just, lol. 

You've gone Full Everton there mate.

[Trada]

I shouldn't worry. You and those who think like you have fucked any meaningful attempt at a Parliamentary Labour Party for a generation or more.

Whats wrong with fighting for what is right and not fighting for what the daily mail thinks is right.

we cant have the poor, disabled and the working class having a voice.

[Trada]

Sorry Trada but just, lol. 

You've gone Full Everton there mate.

No need to feel sorry for me.

Explain why Im wrong and why the PLP should choose the next leader and not the members?

[classycarra]

No need to feel sorry for me.

Explain why Im wrong and why the PLP should choose the next leader and not the members?

No need, you provide the perfect counter argument in a microcosm

[filopastry]

Whats wrong with fighting for what is right and not fighting for what the daily mail thinks is right.

we cant have the poor, disabled and the working class having a voice.

You are aware that a large proportion of Labour's working class support appears to have decided to vote for someone else since Corbyn took over?

That's exactly the group that seems to be deserting Labour.

[Trada]

With respect, I'd rather it wasn't.

Otherwise we might have the leadership of the party solely determined by recent influxes of half-arsed Green supporters, who only very occasionally get themselves on board with the idea of opposing the Tories. And unfortunately usually do it in a daft way.

On no a leader that represents the membership we cant be having that.

We need a leader that just kiss asses what the media thinks is right NOT what is right.

[zero zero]

Whats wrong with fighting for what is right and not fighting for what the daily mail thinks is right.

Corbyn, The Daily Mail and Rupert Murdoch all wanted Brexit. Are you oblivious to what  over the Art 50 vote?

[Sangria]

Under the rules right now the next Labour leader will just be a new Tory kiss ass.

The choice should be taken away from the PLP and given to the members.

fuck the PLP.

Members like you fully support the current leader who is already kissing Tory arse. As for your question about why it is wrong to fight for what is right: nothing wrong with that. If only Corbyn had done so, rather than whip his MPs to support the Tories.

As long as people like Corbyn are in charge of the Labour party, a vote for Labour is a wasted vote. You might as well vote Tory. Any Labour MP members like you elect will end up voting for the Tories under Corbyn's direction anyway, so you might as well cut out the middle man.

[west_london_red]

Explain why Im wrong and why the PLP should choose the next leader and not the members?

In one word: Corbyn

And that's coming from someone who voted for him the first time around. You can talk about the poor and disabled being unrepresented, but the truth is they are unrepresented now and will remain so until Labour is in power. And with the current leadership we will remain in opposition. Theres not an issue for me in terms of ideology, but on execution. The execution has been piss poor. There was supposed to be some bold relaunch of his leadership in the new year which seems to have fizzled out before it started, and then the news that the fight against Brexit started a couple of weeks ago and not before and up to the 23rd June.

[Trada]

You are aware that a large proportion of Labour's working class support appears to have decided to vote for someone else since Corbyn took over?

That's exactly the group that seems to be deserting Labour.

I wonder why that is?

Mostly because the media tells you that standing up for the poor and the work classes is wrong.

Vote for the what we tell you fuck the working classes that's so 80's.

Vote bankers....vote austerity...vote Tory brixsit ....vote Trump... be a c*nt

Do what we tell you not what is right.

Anyway thats all I will say.

Or I will get another ban as usual for not being a Tory Kiss ass.

We cant have someone standing up for Labour values on the Labour thread only New Labour Tory values are welcome here.

A Labour thread more Tory than the Tory thread.

[west_london_red]

On no a leader that represents the membership we cant be having that.

Who was representing the majority of Labour members and affiliated organisations when he whipped the MPs into voting for Brexit?

[Millie]

Under the rules right now the next Labour leader will just be a new Tory kiss ass.

The choice should be taken away from the PLP and given to the members.

fuck the PLP. 

Just like Corbyn then

[zero zero]

Vote bankers....vote austerity...vote Tory brixsit ....vote Trump... be a c*nt

Or I will get another ban as usual for not being a Tory Kiss ass.

This is Corbyn

[Show Me The Exit]

Trada is right that poor and working class people have felt disenfranchised by New Labour.

That's the reason Corbyn got elected.

Of course any politician has to offer a mixture of pragmatism and principle but that also applies to the "centrists".

It's just not enough to say that they should be voted in on the basis that they are wearing red rosettes and aren't the Tories - that message simply doesn't resonate anymore.

Labour is meant to be a socialist party - what socialist principles would people actually be prepared to fight for?

PS membership of the EU is not socialism which is why Tony Benn was opposed to it.

[Red-Soldier]

I wonder why that is?

Mostly because the media tells you that standing up for the poor and the work classes is wrong.

Vote for the what we tell you fuck the working classes that's so 80's.

Vote bankers....vote austerity...vote Tory brixsit ....vote Trump... be a c*nt

Do what we tell you not what is right.

Anyway thats all I will say.

Or I will get another ban as usual for not being a Tory Kiss ass.

We cant have someone standing up for Labour values on the Labour thread only New Labour Tory values are welcome here.

Yes, that's Corbyn.

[classycarra]

Trada you're expending a lot of effort telling us all off for being taken in by the media. It's apparent from your posts, in your own words, that you watch a lot of Fox News and seem to read a lot of stuff on Twitter without even letting it register, or giving it a moments thought before you take it at face value.

I would say you might need to get your own house in order before you go projecting to the rest of us that we are suckers to the media. It is you in here, more than anyone else I can recall, who feels most comfortable just parroting and copy/pasting things you've found in your echo chamber. You also seem loath to learn from your repeated errors that people politely point out to you, such as posting patently inaccurate 'news'.

Now you may be happy in your own personally constructed echo chamber, and that's absolutely your right, but if you're going to come in here and lash out at others - judging us against your own diminished analytic capabilities and expectations - please don't be upset if a few people challenge you about it. Or worse, cry bully or play victim - like your ban comment above - and blame everyone else for your own problems instead of taking the time for a little introspection to wonder about your own actions.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Trada is right that poor and working class people have felt disenfranchised by New Labour.

That's the reason Corbyn got elected.

Is it?

I thought a lot of those voters were defecting to UKIP.

the tory vote share has stayed pretty much the same in polls.

How has electing Corbyn helped with winning back those voters?

[Red-Soldier]

Trada is right that poor and working class people have felt disenfranchised by New Labour.

That's the reason Corbyn got elected.

Of course any politician has to offer a mixture of pragmatism and principle but that also applies to the "centrists".

It's just not enough to say that they should be voted in on the basis that they are wearing red rosettes and aren't the Tories - that message simply doesn't resonate anymore.

Labour is meant to be a socialist party - what socialist principles would people actually be prepared to fight for?

PS membership of the EU is not socialism which is why Tony Benn was opposed to it.

You know you're on wobbly ground when Show Me The Mane agrees with you. 

[filopastry]

Trada is right that poor and working class people have felt disenfranchised by New Labour.

That's the reason Corbyn got elected.

Of course any politician has to offer a mixture of pragmatism and principle but that also applies to the "centrists".

It's just not enough to say that they should be voted in on the basis that they are wearing red rosettes and aren't the Tories - that message simply doesn't resonate anymore.

Labour is meant to be a socialist party - what socialist principles would people actually be prepared to fight for?

PS membership of the EU is not socialism which is why Tony Benn was opposed to it.

So why have the Working Class deserted Labour in massive numbers since Corbyn took over?

It's funny how Corbyn's views on greater party democracy and responding to the wishes of the membership go out the window when its the Brexit issue where his views happen to fall in line with the Tories rather than his own members.

He's just another hypocritical career politician bullshitter, the difference compared to others is just that he isn't very good at it.

And anyone who thinks that leaving the EU under this government is likely to lead to greater socialism in the UK should probably seek professional help.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

And anyone who thinks that leaving the EU under this government is likely to lead to greater socialism in the UK should probably seek professional help.

Its OK, Tony Benn hated the EU so Brexit is sound. It's socialist approved, as shown by Corbyn's pisspoor campaign attempts before the referendum.

[oldfordie]

I wonder why that is?

Mostly because the media tells you that standing up for the poor and the work classes is wrong.

Vote for the what we tell you fuck the working classes that's so 80's.

Vote bankers....vote austerity...vote Tory brixsit ....vote Trump... be a c*nt

Do what we tell you not what is right.

Anyway thats all I will say.

Or I will get another ban as usual for not being a Tory Kiss ass.

We cant have someone standing up for Labour values on the Labour thread only New Labour Tory values are welcome here.

It's not just the media who've played a part in this coming about. Labour supporters also need to take their share of the blame.
Labour did stand up for Labour values in 97 but many of the people claiming to support Labour refuse to accept this, they keep saying they couldn't tell the difference between the Torys and Labour,
They refuse to acknowledge the good Labour did to concentrate on trashing their record on other issues. so this is not about Labour not caring, this is about how the left view politics.
We now have a new generation coming through believing this bull shit over new Labour.
All you hear is Iraq,bankers, PFI. sod all about all the massive change for the good.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

All you hear is Iraq,bankers, PFI. sod all about all the massive change for the good.

I agree. The further left are happy to bash Blair over and over without ever crediting any of the good stuff.

Good stuff they could actually do because they were an electable party back then, not a has been also ran led by somebody who is out of touch and out of ideas. And ends up siding with the Tory party anyway!

[TheShanklyGates]

I wonder why that is?

Mostly because the media tells you that standing up for the poor and the work classes is wrong.

Vote for the what we tell you fuck the working classes that's so 80's.

Vote bankers....vote austerity...vote Tory brixsit ....vote Trump... be a c*nt

Do what we tell you not what is right.

Anyway thats all I will say.

Or I will get another ban as usual for not being a Tory Kiss ass.

We cant have someone standing up for Labour values on the Labour thread only New Labour Tory values are welcome here.

A Labour thread more Tory than the Tory thread.

You spend most of your time in the Donald Trump threads taking the piss out of the idiots who will believe anything that comes out of his mouth whilst dismissing everything in the media as 'fake news' yet when it comes to Corbyn you yourself disregard absolutely everything that doesn't fit in with your view that Corbyn is somehow the messiah of the Labour party.

You berate the PLP for supposedly being more Tory than the Tories yet not a peep about Corbyn whipping his party through the lobbies with the Tories to hand May carte blanche to do whatever the hell she likes after triggering article 50. Labour values, which you claim to espouse, indeed Labour party policy agreed upon by the majority of the membership was to remain the European Union - why is party 'democracy' only important to you when it falls in line with your own opinion? The hypocrisy is simply astounding.

[Show Me The Exit]

So why have the Working Class deserted Labour in massive numbers since Corbyn took over?

The same reason that they would have abandoned any of the candidates who were in charge of the Labour Party and the same answer to your points about:

I don't even know what Corbyn's leadership is meant to be achieving anymore, all of the predictions which his supporters made back in 2015 look even more ludicrous now than they did then.

We were told that we needed Corbyn and a move to the left to win back Scotland, results in Scotland have gotten much worse rather than better.

We were told the centre of political gravity would be pulled leftwards, it hasn't, its now pandering to batshit crazy nationalists, seemingly with the tacit consent of Corbyn when it comes his old bugbear, the EU.

The reason is that politicians, Corbyn included, have not yet adjusted to the new reality of Left Vs Right being outdated as a prism by which to look through things. The larger gap is now between neoliberal globalisation vs protectionist nationalism and these fault lines traverse social classes.
Unfortunately, the level of political analysis and discourse is so dismal that people tend to equate whatever they happen to like with how “Left” or “Right” wing it is. Corbnyn? “too Left”. Cameron? “too Right”. May? Oh God we hate here – she’s even MORE Right wing.
In reality the “May doctrine” (if she has been in the job long enough to deserve the moniker) is her electing to move “leftwards” economically and “rightwards” socially. Thereby she is navigating the issue of nationalism as all of the most successful politicians are doing (Sturgeon, Trump, numerous European examples).
Any successful Labour leader needs to come up with a counter narrative that can do the same.

It's funny how Corbyn's views on greater party democracy and responding to the wishes of the membership go out the window when its the Brexit issue where his views happen to fall in line with the Tories rather than his own members.

The leadership has to be decided by the membership. Once he (or she) becomes leader they have to be accountable to the populace if they have any hope of gaining power. The nation has clearly voted for Brexit.

And anyone who thinks that leaving the EU under this government is likely to lead to greater socialism in the UK should probably seek professional help.

Whether it will or it won’t is a separate issue to whether it can.

[classycarra]

Has anyone more frequently, and in a shorter amount of time, used the word 'clearly' as poorly as Show me the Mané?

Quick tip - it's not providing the emphasis or support that you think it is mate.

[classycarra]

Being realistic, he's genuinely a fundamentalist. It's no different to arguing with a christian fundie creationist about evolution, they will never shift their view. Only in Trada's case it's his support for a demagogue.

As you point out, the irony of his criticisms of Trump supporters are lost on almost noone. Except him, perhaps.

[TheShanklyGates]

The leadership has to be decided by the membership. Once he (or she) becomes leader they have to be accountable to the populace if they have any hope of gaining power. The nation has clearly voted for Brexit.

Just picking this one line out of your post, as has been said time after time in here, the Labour membership is not representative of the electorate as a whole. In this example the membership back remaining in the EU and would therefore, were there to be another leadership contest, probably elect someone who reflects this. And then we're back to the problem of a Labour leader that the members are happy with but who is out of touch with the country.

[Show Me The Exit]

Has anyone more frequently, and in a shorter amount of time, used the word 'clearly' as poorly as Show me the Mané?

Quick tip - it's not providing the emphasis or support that you think it is mate.

Despite my best efforts to crystallise it for you, clearly, you have once again failed to clear your cognitive hurdle to clearly grasp whatever is being clarified in the thread.