Author Topic: RIP Christopher Hitchens  (Read 44074 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #200 on: January 16, 2015, 01:16:55 pm »
I don't agree. Out of theism, atheism, and agnosticism, the only one that isn't a creed is agnosticism. Both of the others are a belief.

You don't agree with what? What he said he believed?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #201 on: January 16, 2015, 01:18:53 pm »
Your statement about cognitive dissonance.

That's a quote by Christopher Hitchens.
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Offline nick_8589

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #202 on: January 16, 2015, 01:26:26 pm »
Who admitted there was no way of knowing and said he couldn't live without Donne, Herbert etc.

Anyway, probably a trivial point. More important was the beautiful eloquence he had. Sadly missed.

He described himself as an anti-theist, in that he doesn't believe there is a god and that it would be a bad thing even if there was. One of his favourite lines was that if god were real it would be like a celestial North Korea.

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #203 on: January 16, 2015, 01:43:43 pm »
For that, thank you Chris.

I'm sure he would thank you back for telling everyone he had deist tendencies.

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #204 on: January 16, 2015, 01:44:37 pm »
The only time anyone succeeded in standing their ground when Sharpton called him on the title of his book. Great debate that was.

Though it was apparent from that debate that the only bit of the book Sharpton had read was the front cover.

Offline Trim0582

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #205 on: January 16, 2015, 01:46:25 pm »
I don't agree. Out of theism, atheism, and agnosticism, the only one that isn't a creed is agnosticism. Both of the others are a belief.

Wait, atheism is exactly not a belief. It is not the other side of the same coin.

That's like saying deserts and oceans are the same only one has water and one doesn't.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #206 on: January 16, 2015, 01:49:24 pm »
For me Hitch at his best was the debate moderated by Amy Goodman against Galloway and his goons. For that, thank you Chris.

Yes, that was a fine moment for Hitchens and a dreadful one for Galloway. The tub-thumper versus the intellectual. Galloway all pre-prepared little insults and leaden feet; Hitchens quicksilver wit, erudition and uppercuts that you couldn't see coming. Galloway looked a fool and I began to feel sorry for him. It's never nice to see someone embarrassed like that.
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #207 on: January 16, 2015, 01:51:21 pm »
Not really. For me they are both unfounded beliefs.

Well atheism has certainly failed to prove the negative. It's impossible to do of course. But that doesn't make it "unfounded".
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #208 on: January 16, 2015, 02:21:57 pm »
Hitch on the reaction to the religious violence that met the Danish cartoons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp5PvZC0vRs
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #209 on: January 16, 2015, 02:22:15 pm »
Not really. For me they are both unfounded beliefs.

Atheism is not the assertion that there is no God, it is the rejection of theistic claims that a God exists.

Atheism is the default position
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #210 on: January 16, 2015, 02:24:28 pm »
Orwell's animal farm might have given us the current version of Majeed Nawaz.

This is an incredibly enlightening interview with him,

http://www.npr.org/2015/01/15/377442344/how-orwells-animal-farm-led-a-radical-muslim-to-moderation
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #211 on: January 16, 2015, 02:24:36 pm »
Unsubstantiated?

Certainly not Tom. The atheist case for gods probably not existing, as built up over the centuries, is profoundly substantive. Obviously more substantive than for the opposite case, that gods probably do exist.
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Offline electricghost

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #212 on: January 16, 2015, 02:25:48 pm »
Orwell's animal farm might have given us the current version of Majeed Nawaz.

This is an incredibly enlightening interview with him,

http://www.npr.org/2015/01/15/377442344/how-orwells-animal-farm-led-a-radical-muslim-to-moderation

Was going to post this too, excellent interview.
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Offline electricghost

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #213 on: January 16, 2015, 03:10:29 pm »
[quote author=electricghost link=topic=284104.msg13547059#msg13547059 it is the rejection of theistic claims that a God exists.




Think you're mixing theism and deism there. Theists claim there is a God and 'you should do this.' Deists claim there is a god. Agnostics aren't sure. Atheists say there isn't.

Nope

If you accept the claim a god exists you a theist, if you reject this claim you are an atheist. You do not have to assert that there is no God.  This addresses belief.

If you claim to know a God exists or you claim to know one doesn't exist you are gnostic , if you do not claim to know a God does or doesn't exist then you are agnostic. This deals with knowledge.

Knowledge is a sub set of belief so you can be both things without contradiction. I am an agnostic atheist. I reject theistic claims about the existence of God but don't say I know that there isn't one.


Deism is a form of theism .
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Offline chilongooner

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #214 on: January 16, 2015, 06:09:49 pm »
Nope

If you accept the claim a god exists you a theist, if you reject this claim you are an atheist. You do not have to assert that there is no God.  This addresses belief.

My issue here is it seems like a false dichotomy based on a certain system of logic. For instance, it is possible to neither accept nor reject a claim of god existing.

I remember a discussion with a friend who was studying philosophy and Buddhist logic. I think it might have been Nagarjuna , Buddhist logician, who uses an expanded logic than just what Leibniz-Newton used. To some Buddhist logicians for instance it possible to BOTH accept and reject a claim that god exists and its also possible to NEITHER accept or reject a claim that god exists. It is a more metaphorical base for logic than pure literal.

I also remember a discussion on a mailing list a long time ago where the atheist asked the self-declared "do you accept or reject the claim of God's existence" and the respondent would die-hard insist "neither!".

Quote
If you claim to know a God exists or you claim to know one doesn't exist you are gnostic , if you do not claim to know a God does or doesn't exist then you are agnostic. This deals with knowledge.

Knowledge is a sub set of belief so you can be both things without contradiction. I am an agnostic atheist. I reject theistic claims about the existence of God but don't say I know that there isn't one.

Deism is a form of theism .

This is a very good breakdown.

You did miss pantheism though. If the belief is that the sum total of the universe =  "God" that belief sits outside the other paradigms, although an atheist might argue that a pantheist is still atheist towards any formulation of a God concept that religions use.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 06:15:26 pm by chilongooner »

Offline electricghost

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #215 on: January 16, 2015, 06:49:00 pm »
My issue here is it seems like a false dichotomy based on a certain system of logic. For instance, it is possible to neither accept nor reject a claim of god existing.

I remember a discussion with a friend who was studying philosophy and Buddhist logic. I think it might have been Nagarjuna , Buddhist logician, who uses an expanded logic than just what Leibniz-Newton used. To some Buddhist logicians for instance it possible to BOTH accept and reject a claim that god exists and its also possible to NEITHER accept or reject a claim that god exists. It is a more metaphorical base for logic than pure literal.

I also remember a discussion on a mailing list a long time ago where the atheist asked the self-declared "do you accept or reject the claim of God's existence" and the respondent would die-hard insist "neither!".



Sorry but that is just meaningless. It has nothing at all to do with the reality we experience, and therefore I have no time for it.
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #216 on: January 16, 2015, 10:21:51 pm »
Been going through his Arguably, set of essays. Some lovely little gems on Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ballard.
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #217 on: January 16, 2015, 11:08:38 pm »
'Probably not existing' is agnosticism.

No it's not!

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #218 on: January 16, 2015, 11:08:50 pm »
Suspect we are working off different definitions. Do you agree with this classification?

http://youtu.be/jFaBbndExzg



No, I don't agree with the way he used the terms there.

 I agree entirely with the point he makes though ignoring that.
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #219 on: January 16, 2015, 11:15:35 pm »
'Probably not existing' is agnosticism.

You are confusing belief claims with knowledge claims as I explained before.



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Offline Alan_X

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #220 on: January 16, 2015, 11:18:32 pm »
What is the obsession with atheism/agnosticism?

It's so tiresome when some smartness tells me what I think.

I am an atheist.

I don't believe in God.

I can't prove he definitely doesn't exist. But all the evidence points that way.

And it's irrelevant even if he does exist  - I still don't believe in him.

And of course I also don't believe in all the other gods either.

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #221 on: January 16, 2015, 11:20:30 pm »
You can't claim an element of doubt and be sure!

Yes he can - he just did.

I assume you're a philosopher or have studied philosophy. It really messes with the ability to see what's actually going in around you.
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #222 on: January 16, 2015, 11:24:20 pm »
This is all semantics. My position is that anyone who claims to know for sure that a god/gods/God exists or does not exist cannot prove it.

I agree, that's my position too. Notice you use the word "know" there. It doesn't cover the question of belief which is separate.
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #223 on: January 16, 2015, 11:26:20 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/JWVshkVF0SY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/JWVshkVF0SY</a>
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #224 on: January 16, 2015, 11:28:27 pm »
This is all semantics. My position is that anyone who claims to know for sure that a god/gods/God exists or does not exist cannot prove it.

So by the same logic there can't be any believers either.

If it's impossible to say you don't believe because there's no absolute proof of non existence, how can anyone believe in God when there's no absolute proof of existence? 

Because all of things that have been claimed as proof of gods necessary existence have been shown to be anything but. He is not necessary in my life. He has no place in it. He does not exist.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 11:32:36 pm by Alan_X »
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #225 on: January 16, 2015, 11:36:39 pm »
This is all semantics. My position is that anyone who claims to know for sure that a god/gods/God exists or does not exist cannot prove it.
I don't need to prove it, why should I need to? If I did, I'd be just as sad as those dickheads who think there is a 'god' and try to continually tell me that 'a' god does exist. They are all as bad and as mental as one another.







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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #226 on: January 16, 2015, 11:36:57 pm »
At last, a thread without ITK's.
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #227 on: January 16, 2015, 11:38:12 pm »
At last, a thread without ITK's.

You haven't seen twitter or podcasts or news shows or the USA or pretty much anywhere in the world have you ?! They all claim to be ITK.
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #228 on: January 16, 2015, 11:39:47 pm »
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #229 on: January 16, 2015, 11:49:25 pm »

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #230 on: January 16, 2015, 11:56:00 pm »
This is all semantics. My position is that anyone who claims to know for sure that a god/gods/God exists or does not exist cannot prove it.

So by your reckoning everybody is an agnostic. The Pope just as much as Richard Dawkins. There's no such thing as atheism and no such thing as religious belief.
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #231 on: January 17, 2015, 12:03:38 am »
Dawkins (Praise Be Upon Him) had a scale.



I think I'm about where he was, i.e. 6.999.......

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #232 on: January 17, 2015, 12:15:13 am »
Put me down as a 7.
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #233 on: January 17, 2015, 12:16:06 am »
Dawkins (Praise Be Upon Him) had a scale.



I think I'm about where he was, i.e. 6.999.......
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #234 on: January 17, 2015, 12:19:10 am »

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #235 on: January 17, 2015, 12:20:53 am »
I could be God.
But then you'd be a 1.
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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #236 on: January 17, 2015, 12:22:05 am »
My issue here is it seems like a false dichotomy based on a certain system of logic. For instance, it is possible to neither accept nor reject a claim of god existing.

I remember a discussion with a friend who was studying philosophy and Buddhist logic. I think it might have been Nagarjuna , Buddhist logician, who uses an expanded logic than just what Leibniz-Newton used. To some Buddhist logicians for instance it possible to BOTH accept and reject a claim that god exists and its also possible to NEITHER accept or reject a claim that god exists. It is a more metaphorical base for logic than pure literal.


Yeah, I think I'll exercise my right to free speech here and say, what a load of fucking shite that is. It isn't a metaphorical base for logic; it's a literal base for pure unadulterated stupidity and smug smartarseness. Surely when you heard it, let alone when you actually typed it out, you thought to yourself "this really is the motherload of fucking stupid philosophical propositions?" The Buddhist logician, and by extension, your friend, if they accept that position, are a pair of fucking twats together. I somehow now wish there is a real vengeful god or gods, just so he, she or they can roast these two bellends in some form of eternal hell fire. I'm opposed to real life torture, but not so much to philosophical or supernatural violent eternal torture for the right people. Not you for posting what they'd said though, let me make that clear.


"Schrodinger's God - for when religion and philosophy wilfully misinterpret or simply don't understand science."
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #237 on: January 17, 2015, 12:23:28 am »

Yeah, I think I'll exercise my right to free speech here and say, what a load of fucking shite that is. It isn't a metaphorical base for logic; it's a literal base for pure unadulterated stupidity and smug smartarseness. Surely when you heard it, let alone when you actually typed it out, you thought to yourself "this really is the motherload of fucking stupid philosophical propositions?" The Buddhist logician, and by extension, your friend, if they accept that position, are a pair of fucking twats together. I somehow now wish there is a real vengeful god or gods, just so he, she or they can roast these two bellends in some form of eternal hell fire. I'm opposed to real life torture, but not so much to philosophical or supernatural violent eternal torture for the right people. Not you for posting what they'd said though, let me make that clear.


"Schrodinger's God - for when religion and philosophy wilfully misinterpret or simply don't understand science."

:lmao

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #238 on: January 17, 2015, 12:23:31 am »
Does that scale apply to people who dont believe god is real but do follow/practice the set of beliefs of a religion

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Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens
« Reply #239 on: January 17, 2015, 12:24:23 am »
I'm not editing it, but reading back, that post made me a little angrier than I expected   ;D
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