Author Topic: We've run out of jail space?  (Read 5959 times)

Offline jaffod

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2011, 10:13:56 am »
jaff in hating immigrants shocker, an your more than entitled to your opinion of course, free country an all that.

youll never walk alone it in "I couldn't be more wrong if I tried" shocker.

Offline youll never walk alone it

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2011, 10:17:49 am »
ok mate...people  can come accross wrong on here.
Im drunk  but i havent had  a drink!  bob paisley after rome 77                The times i had here wernt all great, we only  finished 2nd one  season....the great  bob paisley

when shanks was asked  how he relaxed,  he said  he looks at the league table and checks where everton are...

Offline gregor

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2011, 10:23:23 am »
Read the thread title. We can barely house our own criminals without having to find space for thousands of foreign ones on top.
Call me old fashioned but I believe anyone coming to this country to better themselves should abide by the laws of the land. Once they commit a crime and end up in jail they become a massive drain on this country's already overstretched resources and should forfeit their right to stay here.
 I don't see why my taxes, or anybody else's, should go towards feeding them, clothing them and providing them with healthcare etc.
 Carlito Roberto made an interesting point about British criminals in foreign jails and how we can't have it both ways. And he is absolutely right. I would have no complaints about any country sending British scumbags back here, they'd be well within their rights. If it meant we had to build more jails to house them then so be it.
 I think what you're really looking for is the opportunity to call me a racist or a bigot aren't you? But I'm going to disappoint you because a criminal is a criminal to me regardless of their race, colour or country of birth.

I think the fact that you call the entire prison population "scumbags" says a lot in itself. You are right that we can barely house our own criminals, and that's becuase too many of them are in jail. Sending kids to prison for stealing 3 nicker's worth of water isn't doing a lot to help that.

I still don't see how your system is going to work. Let's just say that every country in the world signs up to your system and agrees to deport all foreign criminals to their home country. Do we try them again in a British court when they get back here? If so, what if they're found not guilty?

Offline jaffod

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2011, 10:41:12 am »
ok mate...people  can come accross wrong on here.

I'll tell you what the problem is on here mate. You only have to mention the words 'immigrant' or 'foreigner' on these boards and the PC brigade smell blood. You are instantly labelled a Daily Fail reading, racist, right-wing bigot.
 I know I have developed a reputation as such on here but it's completely wrong. My own personal viewpoint is pretty simple. A criminal is a criminal, regardless of their place of birth. The difference is we can't really do much with our own other than lock them up, whereas a foreign criminal can be deported. I don't see anything wrong with that. I've managed to stay out of jail and avoid any sort of criminal activity for 47 years so I take a pretty dim view of anybody coming to this country on the pretence of bettering themselves and ending up in jail - I believe anyone finding themselves in this situation should forfeit their right to be here. Is that fair? I think it is.
 With regards to the old 'foreigners are taking our jobs' chestnut, again I feel we are at saturation point with unemployment figures similar to what they were in the '80's and the stress that is put on the NHS, housing, education and benefit systems. Is that an unreasonable argument? Where is the logic in letting another 100,000 come here when there are no jobs available?
 It might come as a surprise to some but some of my closest friends in work are immigrants,. They are lovely people who have made the effort to integrate into our society, they speak excellent English and are hard-working, law abiding citizens. I would much rather spend time with them than some of the English bellends who work there.
 Unfortunately we are all being made redundant soon and some of them have decided to return home. I will be quite gutted not to see some of them any more, but there you go.
 Make of this what you will, I don't apologise for my views because I believe they are fair.
 

Offline jaffod

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2011, 10:49:26 am »
I think the fact that you call the entire prison population "scumbags" says a lot in itself. You are right that we can barely house our own criminals, and that's becuase too many of them are in jail. Sending kids to prison for stealing 3 nicker's worth of water isn't doing a lot to help that.

I still don't see how your system is going to work. Let's just say that every country in the world signs up to your system and agrees to deport all foreign criminals to their home country. Do we try them again in a British court when they get back here? If so, what if they're found not guilty?


Maybe you can show me where I labelled the whole prison population 'scumbags'?

I don't see why a re-trial would be needed, just bang them up. You will no doubt point to the likes of the Michael Shields situation but it's not like it hasn't been happening here for years is it?

Offline gregor

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2011, 10:58:39 am »
"Carlito Roberto made an interesting point about British criminals in foreign jails and how we can't have it both ways. And he is absolutely right. I would have no complaints about any country sending British scumbags back here, they'd be well within their rights."

So we accept the decision of the foreign court and use the exact same sentence as they gave? What if that was the death sentence? What if the foreign country we deport someone to tries them again and finds them not guilty, releasing them - wouldn't it play on your conscience that someone had got away with a crime? I don't really think you've thought about this, it's just reactionary.

Let's just bang them all up though eh, no need to think about it.

Offline evenflow

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2011, 11:28:35 am »
Shoplifters of the World Unite

Slavoj Žižek on the meaning of the riots

Repetition, according to Hegel, plays a crucial role in history: when something happens just once, it may be dismissed as an accident, something that might have been avoided if the situation had been handled differently; but when the same event repeats itself, it is a sign that a deeper historical process is unfolding. When Napoleon lost at Leipzig in 1813, it looked like bad luck; when he lost again at Waterloo, it was clear that his time was over. The same holds for the continuing financial crisis. In September 2008, it was presented by some as an anomaly that could be corrected through better regulations etc; now that signs of a repeated financial meltdown are gathering it is clear that we are dealing with a structural phenomenon.
We are told again and again that we are living through a debt crisis, and that we all have to share the burden and tighten our belts. All, that is, except the (very) rich. The idea of taxing them more is taboo: if we did, the argument runs, the rich would have no incentive to invest, fewer jobs would be created and we would all suffer. The only way to save ourselves from hard times is for the poor to get poorer and the rich to get richer. What should the poor do? What can they do?
Although the riots in the UK were triggered by the suspicious shooting of Mark Duggan, everyone agrees that they express a deeper unease – but of what kind? As with the car burnings in the Paris banlieues in 2005, the UK rioters had no message to deliver. (There is a clear contrast with the massive student demonstrations in November 2010, which also turned to violence. The students were making clear that they rejected the proposed reforms to higher education.) This is why it is difficult to conceive of the UK rioters in Marxist terms, as an instance of the emergence of the revolutionary subject; they fit much better the Hegelian notion of the ‘rabble’, those outside organised social space, who can express their discontent only through ‘irrational’ outbursts of destructive violence – what Hegel called ‘abstract negativity’.
There is an old story about a worker suspected of stealing: every evening, as he leaves the factory, the wheelbarrow he pushes in front of him is carefully inspected. The guards find nothing; it is always empty. Finally, the penny drops: what the worker is stealing are the wheelbarrows themselves. The guards were missing the obvious truth, just as the commentators on the riots have done. We are told that the disintegration of the Communist regimes in the early 1990s signalled the end of ideology: the time of large-scale ideological projects culminating in totalitarian catastrophe was over; we had entered a new era of rational, pragmatic politics. If the commonplace that we live in a post-ideological era is true in any sense, it can be seen in this recent outburst of violence. This was zero-degree protest, a violent action demanding nothing. In their desperate attempt to find meaning in the riots, the sociologists and editorial-writers obfuscated the enigma the riots presented.
The protesters, though underprivileged and de facto socially excluded, weren’t living on the edge of starvation. People in much worse material straits, let alone conditions of physical and ideological oppression, have been able to organise themselves into political forces with clear agendas. The fact that the rioters have no programme is therefore itself a fact to be interpreted: it tells us a great deal about our ideological-political predicament and about the kind of society we inhabit, a society which celebrates choice but in which the only available alternative to enforced democratic consensus is a blind acting out. Opposition to the system can no longer articulate itself in the form of a realistic alternative, or even as a utopian project, but can only take the shape of a meaningless outburst. What is the point of our celebrated freedom of choice when the only choice is between playing by the rules and (self-)destructive violence?
Alain Badiou has argued that we live in a social space which is increasingly experienced as ‘worldless’: in such a space, the only form protest can take is meaningless violence. Perhaps this is one of the main dangers of capitalism: although by virtue of being global it encompasses the whole world, it sustains a ‘worldless’ ideological constellation in which people are deprived of their ways of locating meaning. The fundamental lesson of globalisation is that capitalism can accommodate itself to all civilisations, from Christian to Hindu or Buddhist, from West to East: there is no global ‘capitalist worldview’, no ‘capitalist civilisation’ proper. The global dimension of capitalism represents truth without meaning.

The first conclusion to be drawn from the riots, therefore, is that both conservative and liberal reactions to the unrest are inadequate. The conservative reaction was predictable: there is no justification for such vandalism; one should use all necessary means to restore order; to prevent further explosions of this kind we need not more tolerance and social help but more discipline, hard work and a sense of responsibility. What’s wrong with this account is not only that it ignores the desperate social situation pushing young people towards violent outbursts but, perhaps more important, that it ignores the way these outbursts echo the hidden premises of conservative ideology itself. When, in the 1990s, the Conservatives launched their ‘back to basics’ campaign, its obscene complement was revealed by Norman Tebbitt: ‘Man is not just a social but also a territorial animal; it must be part of our agenda to satisfy those basic instincts of tribalism and territoriality.’ This is what ‘back to basics’ was really about: the unleashing of the barbarian who lurked beneath our apparently civilised, bourgeois society, through the satisfying of the barbarian’s ‘basic instincts’. In the 1960s, Herbert Marcuse introduced the concept of ‘repressive desublimation’ to explain the ‘sexual revolution’: human drives could be desublimated, allowed free rein, and still be subject to capitalist control – viz, the porn industry. On British streets during the unrest, what we saw was not men reduced to ‘beasts’, but the stripped-down form of the ‘beast’ produced by capitalist ideology.
Meanwhile leftist liberals, no less predictably, stuck to their mantra about social programmes and integration initiatives, the neglect of which has deprived second and third-generation immigrants of their economic and social prospects: violent outbursts are the only means they have to articulate their dissatisfaction. Instead of indulging ourselves in revenge fantasies, we should make the effort to understand the deeper causes of the outbursts. Can we even imagine what it means to be a young man in a poor, racially mixed area, a priori suspected and harassed by the police, not only unemployed but often unemployable, with no hope of a future? The implication is that the conditions these people find themselves in make it inevitable that they will take to the streets. The problem with this account, though, is that it lists only the objective conditions for the riots. To riot is to make a subjective statement, implicitly to declare how one relates to one’s objective conditions.
We live in cynical times, and it’s easy to imagine a protester who, caught looting and burning a store and pressed for his reasons, would answer in the language used by social workers and sociologists, citing diminished social mobility, rising insecurity, the disintegration of paternal authority, the lack of maternal love in his early childhood. He knows what he is doing, then, but is doing it nonetheless.
It is meaningless to ponder which of these two reactions, conservative or liberal, is the worse: as Stalin would have put it, they are both worse, and that includes the warning given by both sides that the real danger of these outbursts resides in the predictable racist reaction of the ‘silent majority’. One of the forms this reaction took was the ‘tribal’ activity of the local (Turkish, Caribbean, Sikh) communities which quickly organised their own vigilante units to protect their property. Are the shopkeepers a small bourgeoisie defending their property against a genuine, if violent, protest against the system; or are they representatives of the working class, fighting the forces of social disintegration? Here too one should reject the demand to take sides. The truth is that the conflict was between two poles of the underprivileged: those who have succeeded in functioning within the system versus those who are too frustrated to go on trying. The rioters’ violence was almost exclusively directed against their own. The cars burned and the shops looted were not in rich neighbourhoods, but in the rioters’ own. The conflict is not between different parts of society; it is, at its most radical, the conflict between society and society, between those with everything, and those with nothing, to lose; between those with no stake in their community and those whose stakes are the highest.
Zygmunt Bauman characterised the riots as acts of ‘defective and disqualified consumers’: more than anything else, they were a manifestation of a consumerist desire violently enacted when unable to realise itself in the ‘proper’ way – by shopping. As such, they also contain a moment of genuine protest, in the form of an ironic response to consumerist ideology: ‘You call on us to consume while simultaneously depriving us of the means to do it properly – so here we are doing it the only way we can!’ The riots are a demonstration of the material force of ideology – so much, perhaps, for the ‘post-ideological society’. From a revolutionary point of view, the problem with the riots is not the violence as such, but the fact that the violence is not truly self-assertive. It is impotent rage and despair masked as a display of force; it is envy masked as triumphant carnival.
The riots should be situated in relation to another type of violence that the liberal majority today perceives as a threat to our way of life: terrorist attacks and suicide bombings. In both instances, violence and counter-violence are caught up in a vicious circle, each generating the forces it tries to combat. In both cases, we are dealing with blind passages ŕ l’acte, in which violence is an implicit admission of impotence. The difference is that, in contrast to the riots in the UK or in Paris, terrorist attacks are carried out in service of the absolute Meaning provided by religion.
But weren’t the Arab uprisings a collective act of resistance that avoided the false alternative of self-destructive violence and religious fundamentalism? Unfortunately, the Egyptian summer of 2011 will be remembered as marking the end of revolution, a time when its emancipatory potential was suffocated. Its gravediggers are the army and the Islamists. The contours of the pact between the army (which is Mubarak’s army) and the Islamists (who were marginalised in the early months of the upheaval but are now gaining ground) are increasingly clear: the Islamists will tolerate the army’s material privileges and in exchange will secure ideological hegemony. The losers will be the pro-Western liberals, too weak – in spite of the CIA funding they are getting – to ‘promote democracy’, as well as the true agents of the spring events, the emerging secular left that has been trying to set up a network of civil society organisations, from trade unions to feminists. The rapidly worsening economic situation will sooner or later bring the poor, who were largely absent from the spring protests, onto the streets. There is likely to be a new explosion, and the difficult question for Egypt’s political subjects is who will succeed in directing the rage of the poor? Who will translate it into a political programme: the new secular left or the Islamists?
The predominant reaction of Western public opinion to the pact between Islamists and the army will no doubt be a triumphant display of cynical wisdom: we will be told that, as the case of (non-Arab) Iran made clear, popular upheavals in Arab countries always end in militant Islamism. Mubarak will appear as having been a much lesser evil – better to stick with the devil you know than to play around with emancipation. Against such cynicism, one should remain unconditionally faithful to the radical-emancipatory core of the Egypt uprising.
But one should also avoid the temptation of the narcissism of the lost cause: it’s too easy to admire the sublime beauty of uprisings doomed to fail. Today’s left faces the problem of ‘determinate negation’: what new order should replace the old one after the uprising, when the sublime enthusiasm of the first moment is over? In this context, the manifesto of the Spanish indignados, issued after their demonstrations in May, is revealing. The first thing that meets the eye is the pointedly apolitical tone: ‘Some of us consider ourselves progressive, others conservative. Some of us are believers, some not. Some of us have clearly defined ideologies, others are apolitical, but we are all concerned and angry about the political, economic and social outlook that we see around us: corruption among politicians, businessmen, bankers, leaving us helpless, without a voice.’ They make their protest on behalf of the ‘inalienable truths that we should abide by in our society: the right to housing, employment, culture, health, education, political participation, free personal development and consumer rights for a healthy and happy life.’ Rejecting violence, they call for an ‘ethical revolution. Instead of placing money above human beings, we shall put it back to our service. We are people, not products. I am not a product of what I buy, why I buy and who I buy from.’ Who will be the agents of this revolution? The indignados dismiss the entire political class, right and left, as corrupt and controlled by a lust for power, yet the manifesto nevertheless consists of a series of demands addressed at – whom? Not the people themselves: the indignados do not (yet) claim that no one else will do it for them, that they themselves have to be the change they want to see. And this is the fatal weakness of recent protests: they express an authentic rage which is not able to transform itself into a positive programme of sociopolitical change. They express a spirit of revolt without revolution.
The situation in Greece looks more promising, probably owing to the recent tradition of progressive self-organisation (which disappeared in Spain after the fall of the Franco regime). But even in Greece, the protest movement displays the limits of self-organisation: protesters sustain a space of egalitarian freedom with no central authority to regulate it, a public space where all are allotted the same amount of time to speak and so on. When the protesters started to debate what to do next, how to move beyond mere protest, the majority consensus was that what was needed was not a new party or a direct attempt to take state power, but a movement whose aim is to exert pressure on political parties. This is clearly not enough to impose a reorganisation of social life. To do that, one needs a strong body able to reach quick decisions and to implement them with all necessary harshness.




Brother mailed it to me but will look for the source..
actually not sure this was the correct thread..but relevant nevertheless
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Offline jaffod

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2011, 02:37:07 pm »
"Carlito Roberto made an interesting point about British criminals in foreign jails and how we can't have it both ways. And he is absolutely right. I would have no complaints about any country sending British scumbags back here, they'd be well within their rights."



Okay, maybe English isn't your first language. But I'll ask again anyway. Maybe you can show me where I labelled the whole prison population scumbags?




So we accept the decision of the foreign court and use the exact same sentence as they gave? What if that was the death sentence? What if the foreign country we deport someone to tries them again and finds them not guilty, releasing them - wouldn't it play on your conscience that someone had got away with a crime? I don't really think you've thought about this, it's just reactionary.



You obviously like putting words in my mouth. I made no comment on length of sentence. Maybe it's something that would have to be looked at, although I imagine most foreign countries dish out sentences more befitting of the crime rather than the ludicrously short jail terms handed out over here on a regular basis.
 If it was a death sentence then that's the chance you take for committing a crime with that tariff in any particular country. If the person was deported before the sentence was carried out then they would be locked up indefinitely here. As for criminals being re-tried when they get home and being found not guilty I couldn't really care less providing they were never allowed back into Britain. It wouldn't be our problem.

Offline gregor

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2011, 03:52:07 pm »
As for criminals being re-tried when they get home and being found not guilty I couldn't really care less providing they were never allowed back into Britain. It wouldn't be our problem.


Great, so there would be victims of crimes here that would find out that the criminal had been re-tried abroad and set free. I'm sure they'd love that. This is an absolutely bizarre system which wouldn't be practical in any way.

And if you can't see that you implied they were all scumbags, maybe English isn't your first language.

Offline jaffod

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2011, 04:05:35 pm »
Great, so there would be victims of crimes here that would find out that the criminal had been re-tried abroad and set free. I'm sure they'd love that. This is an absolutely bizarre system which wouldn't be practical in any way.

And if you can't see that you implied they were all scumbags, maybe English isn't your first language.

Let's not forget this all stemmed from me stating I'd like to see foreign criminals deported, it's not like I've written a 500 page thesis on it. I'm not saying there aren't grey areas, and it was you who brought up the idea of re-trials in the first place, not me. Maybe serious crime like murder would need a different approach but for less serious offences like burglary, drink-driving, assault etc I still don't see any reason why they shouldn't be sent packing.
 And no, I don't see why me saying 'British scumbags' implies I think the whole prison population are scumbags. Although the fact they are in jail in the first place suggests the vast majority are with a few exceptions. I'll lose no sleep over it either way.

Offline BFM

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2011, 04:28:23 pm »
Can't you just send them all to Australia?
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Offline jaffod

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2011, 05:32:20 pm »
Can't you just send them all to Australia?

It's already been tried mate and you're still moaning about it now. ;)

Offline ♠Dirty Harry♠

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2011, 12:05:14 am »
skin them, give them salt baths then fist them

Fist them? Really?

Offline djphal

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2011, 05:00:58 pm »

Offline Gojedo

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2011, 10:53:04 pm »

Offline Slave

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2011, 11:10:13 pm »
yeah sure

That's a job nobody will want. We'll have to rely on those immigrants. Jaffod won't be happy.
It is most odd.

Offline oldboybailey

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2011, 11:45:47 pm »
Decriminalise drugs.

BOOM! problem solved.

Offline jaffod

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2011, 12:44:48 am »
That's a job nobody will want. We'll have to rely on those immigrants. Jaffod won't be happy.

Nah, I'll do it.

Offline Slave

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2011, 12:56:20 am »
It is most odd.

Offline Buggy Eyes Alfredo

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2017, 06:45:46 am »

 :o

At the Fleury-Merogis prison in France, the police are clashing w/ a huge crowd of prison guards who are protesting overcrowding.

Offline Medellin

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2017, 07:44:39 am »
<a href="https://youtube.com/v/hnOHPZ51hAc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/hnOHPZ51hAc</a>
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Offline Sir Harvest Fields

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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2017, 10:06:08 am »
I've got 6 months on the cards next month.
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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2017, 10:12:59 am »
I've got 6 months on the cards next month.
Oh dear...  is that your court date?
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Re: We've run out of jail space?
« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2017, 05:00:17 pm »
Yea. Just for drunk and disorderly.
"Woe to you, Oh Earth and Sea, for the Devil sends the beast with wrath, because he knows the time is short...Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number, its number is Six hundred and sixty six."