Topic: Liverpool's Defence

[RyanBabel19]

Carragher sounding out Rodgers over a coaching role.. Think he'd be brilliant personally, would instill the Liverpool spirit and the fear of god into some of them!

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[Draex]

http://vcarralcazar.wordpress.com/

I think if was offered a job in Liverpool a good coaching role would be difficult to turn down, I suppose because is your club, you always want them to do well, but like I said, I am happy now, I enjoy what I am doing but if that happens you have a decision to make but, as I said anyonelse but Liverpool you wouldn’t really change your job, but when is your own club its a big pull.

[bigbear]

Can't keep picking people who are making basic mistake after basic mistake. There's an excuse about settling in at a club but there can be no excuse whatsoever for failing to attack a ball like the first goal at QPR or leaving a man 4 yards unmarked at the far post like Madrid's second goal. That is a footballing crime and Rodgers has got to get tough with it.

We've had one clean sheet all season at Spurs with Lovren and Sakho in. We could easily have conceded there too but on the basis that we have spent 38m on them 2 in the past year, I think we need to give them a go. We also need to change right back.

[Tony19:6]

Agree we need to mix it up a bit, just dont think Rogers will play Sakho.

[thelinnen]

This is very accurate https://twitter.com/thosescouselads/status/525700777441255425

[dumaten]

Can't keep picking people who are making basic mistake after basic mistake. There's an excuse about settling in at a club but there can be no excuse whatsoever for failing to attack a ball like the first goal at QPR or leaving a man 4 yards unmarked at the far post like Madrid's second goal. That is a footballing crime and Rodgers has got to get tough with it.

These were both Johnson though, nothing to do with our new players. It's just what Johnson does.

[stevo7]

We seem to buying the same piece of a puzzle over and over again. Pair any of Sahko, Louvren or Skrtel with Sami in his pomp, Thompson or Hansen and I'm sure each of them would perform better with the pressure of organising off them.

[Rob Dylan]

Carragher sounding out Rodgers over a coaching role.. Think he'd be brilliant personally, would instill the Liverpool spirit and the fear of god into some of them!

Yeah but Moreno and Manquillo don't speak the language as it is, can you imagine them trying to make sense of Carragher?

[Redman0151]

Carragher sounding out Rodgers over a coaching role.. Think he'd be brilliant personally, would instill the Liverpool spirit and the fear of god into some of them!

Pity Sami has a job, maybe it's just me but I feel the defence really started to decline when Hyypia left, not Carragher.

Carragher is decent, but even on Monday Night Football at times it feels like Neville is a level above him tactically

[kkhaku]

Pity Sami has a job, maybe it's just me but I feel the defence really started to decline when Hyypia left, not Carragher.

Carragher is decent, but even on Monday Night Football at times it feels like Neville is a level above him tactically

I'm of the opinion its not entirely tactical though. We're not lining up incorrectly, or losing our shape - it seems to be a huge lack of competitive spirit and effort. Carra wouldn't need any tactical nous per se, only the ability to instill in the players an absolute necessity to stop that cross and to get to that ball first when it comes into our area.

[RyanBabel19]

I'm of the opinion its not entirely tactical though. We're not lining up incorrectly, or losing our shape - it seems to be a huge lack of competitive spirit and effort. Carra wouldn't need any tactical nous per se, only the ability to instill in the players an absolute necessity to stop that cross and to get to that ball first when it comes into our area.

We lose our defensive shape constantly

[kkhaku]

We lose our defensive shape constantly

Ok, but would you say that is to blame for the amount of goals conceded at set pieces and crosses into our area?

[RideTheWalrus]

Ok, but would you say that is to blame for the amount of goals conceded at set pieces and crosses into our area?

well it kind of is, in part. Defensive shape for defending set pieces is a thing too. Look at Madrid's goal from the corner. No one in the six yard box, Mig went out for it with his feet.

[kkhaku]

well it kind of is, in part. Defensive shape for defending set pieces is a thing too. Look at Madrid's goal from the corner. No one in the six yard box, Mig went out for it with his feet.

If we're talking about the same goal, that was after we lost the initial battle for the first ball. 3 of our players went up for it, but a Madrid player got the first touch. By this time of course it's right there for Madrid to pounce on and we're facing our own goal.

When you're defending from deep, be it a set piece or a cross into your area - shape in itself is fairly basic. The premise is that you need to be the first to that ball - if you get that first touch, the chances of conceding are minimal. We rarely get the first touch - and I just don't see that being down to shape.

[DanA]

If we're talking about the same goal, that was after we lost the initial battle for the first ball. 3 of our players went up for it, but a Madrid player got the first touch. By this time of course it's right there for Madrid to pounce on and we're facing our own goal.

When you're defending from deep, be it a set piece or a cross into your area - shape in itself is fairly basic. The premise is that you need to be the first to that ball - if you get that first touch, the chances of conceding are minimal. We rarely get the first touch - and I just don't see that being down to shape.

Surely when you are defending a corner or free kick you try to win the first ball but plan for situations where you don't. What is a players role if he's not in the initial aerial contest? Surely they have to be filling that space in front of goal. Throwing themselves between ball and the goal.  Twice now there has been massive spaces directly in front of goal as the area has been vacated by players contesting the ball.

[Vork+The Knights of Good]

Carragher sounding out Rodgers over a coaching role.. Think he'd be brilliant personally, would instill the Liverpool spirit and the fear of god into some of them!

I've seen a lot of similar shouts lately and I simply don't follow the logic. Leaving aside my skepticism over the idea of a "defensive coach," what leads people to believe Carra would be right for the role? He has no coaching experience whatsoever. Is it just because he was a great defender himself? The most important aspect of coaching is not knowing what to do (I can assure you that Rodgers, Pascoe, Marsh, etc. all understand the principles of defending), but the ability to transmit ideas and instructions in a comprehensible, efficient, and transferable manner. Carra might very well turn out to be the second coming of Paisley, but I think a lot of folks just assume that he was great at it so he'll be able to teach others how to do it which, IMO, is a flawed assumption.

[spider-neil]

What the defence have to do first and foremost is start acting like a unit. You can't have to defenders that attack the ball and two that retract, that is begging for big gaps to be exploited by the opposition. I would bring Sakho straight into the side and drop Skrtel mainly because Sakho looks better in the air and we need a commanding header of the ball asap or the opposition wont even bother to play football against us and will go route one all game.

[Kopenhagen]

I would bring Sakho straight into the side and drop Skrtel mainly because Sakho looks better in the air and we need a commanding header of the ball asap or the opposition wont even bother to play football against us and will go route one all game.

Don't agree. Sakho is more aggressive than Skrtel, and he wins his battle more often than not, but he's not a better header of the ball.

[Fiasco]

Don't agree. Sakho is more aggressive than Skrtel, and he wins his battle more often than not, but he's not a better header of the ball.

Yep, I agree with the call for Sakho to come back but he's probably not better than Skrtel aerially.

[Xxavi]

They say it is easier to set up a defensive team, and make team to defend. Not so easy for some teams, like Barca and Liverpool. Defense seems to look good only in combination with midfield. It is a legitimate way of playing top quality football, but if this is the way Rodgers wants Liverpool to play, then Liverpool have to dominate the opponent for majority of the game. And I think that could only happen with some superb midfielders.

Alternatively, Rodgers needs to start from scratch and change Liverpool of last season completely. I believe a team can look solid even with average defenders. You just have to maximize number of players defending. So for example 2 very defense minded midfielders shielding back four could be a decent formation. To tell the truth, I don't see a single defensive midfielder at Liverpool currently. All are CMs and CAMs.

[21]

Think we'll try 3 CBs soon. Certainly in preparation visiting Old Trafford mid December think we'll have 1-2 games of 3-5-2 (5-3-2, 3-4-3, 3-1-4-1-1) in preparation for a United 2 man forward line.

[Wesley Pipes]

They need time.

[GrkStav]

They say it is easier to set up a defensive team, and make team to defend. Not so easy for some teams, like Barca and Liverpool. Defense seems to look good only in combination with midfield. It is a legitimate way of playing top quality football, but if this is the way Rodgers wants Liverpool to play, then Liverpool have to dominate the opponent for majority of the game. And I think that could only happen with some superb midfielders.

Alternatively, Rodgers needs to start from scratch and change Liverpool of last season completely. I believe a team can look solid even with average defenders. You just have to maximize number of players defending. So for example 2 very defense minded midfielders shielding back four could be a decent formation. To tell the truth, I don't see a single defensive midfielder at Liverpool currently. All are CMs and CAMs.

I'll tell you what, if you don't see a Can - Lucas or Henderson - Lucas or Can - Allen or Lucas - Allen set of options as an adequately defensively-capable 2 of a 4231, it's not Liverpool's current squad's problem. It's you.

[OneTouchFooty]

Schneiderlin was a huge factor when he looked like a top CB

I was shocked when we were raiding Southampton we never went for this fella.

[Nosss]

I was shocked when we were raiding Southampton we never went for this fella.

He'd be very helpful wouldn't he? I'm pretty sure that the idea is for Can to end up as someone in his mould, but I can't help but think we could really do with someone like him right now.

[indlfc]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=865373590161318&set=vb.118450714853613&type=2&theater

Some clippings from our defense training.

[Robbo1980]

I'll tell you what, if you don't see a Can - Lucas or Henderson - Lucas or Can - Allen or Lucas - Allen set of options as an adequately defensively-capable 2 of a 4231, it's not Liverpool's current squad's problem. It's you

Neither Allen or Henderson are DM's, both chase the ball and harass players but neither read the game and read a pass like a good DM, Lucas is but (despite never being anything other that quite slow) that yard of pace he lost means he struggles to get there on time now, although he has never really had a proper chance i that position since BR came in.
Its too early to judge Can there, he looked ponderous v QPR and lost at times but then so did everyone else....

We, the defence could do with a proper defensive mid

But as a pairing im sure some of the partnerships you mentioned would be fine....

[rocco]

Just a thought ..

I know Rodgers gives the players 2 days rest after a game  but does all the players need it ( i know Danny and Gerrard do ) but with limited coaching time could 1 day be enough and bring the defence in for work on set pieces they are a young set of defenders ?

[Fromola]

Pity Sami has a job, maybe it's just me but I feel the defence really started to decline when Hyypia left, not Carragher.

Carragher is decent, but even on Monday Night Football at times it feels like Neville is a level above him tactically

Spot on. The decline has been steady since 2009 at the back. Without Mascherano it got worse. We've been generally awful at the back since 2009. Carragher left in 2013, so why is history getting rewritten that it's since Carragher left the defensive problems started?

I'd take Carragher just as an improvement on what we have now in terms of defensive coaching (it can't get any worse can it?) but don't think he's really the answer. I see Carragher as more of a Roy Keane, a shouter and intimidator rather than someone who's studiously going to improve things. Some will think kicking heads is what's needed and maybe it is in the short term.

Rodgers has given a firm no to the idea of employing another coach. If he wanted Carragher on his staff then he'd have offered him a job when he hung his boots up. Carragher has said that didn't happen. I'm not sure Rodgers wants someone who would challenge him to be honest but I think that's what he does need.

I actually think it's experience we lack on the coaching staff. Carragher has at least got extensive European experience but not as a coach. Achterberg, Marsh, Pascoe and Rodgers are involved in the CL for the first time this season and have little European experience. We've looked genuinely clueless in the three CL games. It's been like watching England at an international tournament.

[L666KOP]

Ok, but would you say that is to blame for the amount of goals conceded at set pieces and crosses into our area?

This is why I've come to believe that it's how we're coached.

When the ball comes in the area from a restart, both CB's are more concerned with their man, than the ball. Rather than attack the ball we try and stop our opponents from attacking it.
And in open play, Lovren steps out into the DM 'position' of the pitch, whilst Skrtel drops back.

It happens far too often for it to be anything other than following orders.

It might be one of them new-fangled things like zonal marking was 20 years ago, and one that takes a few games to make work effectively.
But I've come to the point now, it's what we do. If our CB's are told otherwise, they'd have been dropped.

[clinical]

Schneiderlin was a huge factor when he looked like a top CB

Bring him in then. A player we could really do with anyway.

[fefs]

Just a thought ..

I know Rodgers gives the players 2 days rest after a game  but does all the players need it ( i know Danny and Gerrard do ) but with limited coaching time could 1 day be enough and bring the defence in for work on set pieces they are a young set of defenders ?

He doesn't give the whole squad or even all of the players who featured 2 days rest as far as I know

[Humperdinck]

Just a thought ..

I know Rodgers gives the players 2 days rest after a game  but does all the players need it ( i know Danny and Gerrard do ) but with limited coaching time could 1 day be enough and bring the defence in for work on set pieces they are a young set of defenders ?

Recovery day doesnt equal not doing anything.

[dumaten]

He doesn't give the whole squad or even all of the players who featured 2 days rest as far as I know

I don't think anyone gets 2 days rest, its just that the players whose game involves a lot of sprinting don't do high intensity work for 2 days. They will still do anything that doesnt involve sprinting

[Fromola]

Recovery day doesnt equal not doing anything.

They should probably be spending that second day recovery for the time being just doing defensive drills.

Rodgers is right that there's a lack of time to train and prepare between matches now but get used to it because that's what happens when you qualify for Europe where LFC should always be. We had a week to prepare for games last season and still couldn't defend as a team and do the basics.

[clinical]

They need time.

They won't get any better. Mignolet isnt suddenly going to become an alround keeper we crave. He's not good enough. Skrtel can do better but his heading defensively always has been shocking. Lovren may get better but he's only shown to be a top centre backs for 6 months in his career and he's 25

[Upinsmoke]

They won't get any better. Mignolet isnt suddenly going to become an alround keeper we crave. He's not good enough. Skrtel can do better but his heading defensively always has been shocking. Lovren may get better but he's only shown to be a top centre backs for 6 months in his career and he's 25

They'll get worse, every defender under BR has got worse. Bar flanno, too early to tell yet for Moreno and Manquillo but give it time they'll be shitting themselves.

Skrtel has got progressively worse. Sakho looks worse than his PSG days and in a France kit. Glen Johnson gets worse, I know Kolo wasn't getting games for city but some of the stuff he did for lfc last season bordered on deliberate sabotage. Mignolet started off strong gets gradually worse till were in the position where he isn't rated anymore.

Lovren started strong but already looks to be faltering.

[RyanBabel19]

Ok, but would you say that is to blame for the amount of goals conceded at set pieces and crosses into our area?

It partially is yes, not solely but its a part of it

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

Very worrying. Really is shocking the level of performance if the defence. Any high ball is never dealt with. Basics, that we can't deal with. It fucked the league last season and now will cost us. Too many excuses on here, it was evident last season but passed off as we were winning. Now that's costing us. Not sure where defensively we go from this now. 

[Upinsmoke]

It's amazing were fifth BTW. Someone is looking down on us. One of the worse defences in the league and only one striker (who's injured) has scored a league goal.