Author Topic: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?  (Read 8059 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« on: June 11, 2004, 05:45:32 pm »
Gone are the days when Liverpool could realistically hope to regain its old standing and once again dominate English football and Europe; that empire crumpled, and with the passing years the opportunity to resurrect it has grown increasingly slim – the football landscape has changed.

Rafael Benitez (if he is ever appointed, and all this isn't just a figment of my imagination) faces a slightly different challenge to that he faced in Spain; if his task is to take a top side with some great players - but one which last won the league too long ago - and overthrow the current superpowers (so far, so Valencia), there are reasons he won't find it quite so easy to achieve.

You got the sense with his old rivals Barcelona and Real Madrid - the two Spanish superpowers - that they were never sensibly run clubs. Instead of Madrid buying the top centre half (such as Walter Samuel, now belatedly purchased) that would have made them virtually unbeatable last season, they opted for more "Galacticos" (the most irritating word in modern football) and sold their defensive midfielder to Chelsea - meaning the glorious attacking players didn't have the ball half as much as they would if someone could win it back for them; concede sloppy goals, and you double the pressure on your best creative players. At Barcelona, you sensed until recently that they were a rabble of superstar egos looking to fight with each other, rather than for each other (that's what you get for mixing Spanish hotheadedness with the Dutch footballers' ability to pick an argument in an empty room). The Latin blood in the boardrooms seemed to pump too fast, and they made decisions with their hearts not their heads; and they chose glamour players to buy to win presidential elections, not to solve weaknesses in the set-up.

At Valencia, Benitez fashioned a side with a nucleus of superb players, but got them - and this is the crux - playing as a team, with a proper formation, a balanced nature to the side, and a good mixture of quality from the back through to up front. Benitez did what Wenger did at Arsenal - made his side champions with a certain unfaltering approach, and did so without spending as much money as the teams finishing below them in the table. One of the problems here will be that Arsenal have already performed that trick.

With the top English sides, you feel there is a lot more common sense in their approach. Chelsea had the capacity to implode like Real Madrid, but they've appointed a manager who will avoid falling into the same traps - proving Ambramovich allows him to; and Peter Kenyon has (surprisingly) been talking a good game about how to do things properly. They have a lot of good ideas, but the pressure the money brings, and the impatience to achieve things quickly, could yet be their undoing. Chelsea have all the money in the world (literally, I'm led to believe), and a hungry, arrogant manager who will have some amazing talent at his disposal by the time the chequebook closes, but who will need to fashion a balanced side and dampen some egos. You have to fear that while money alone cannot make a great team, they can afford to throw money at whatever problems arise until a solution sticks; the dramatic improvements they made in just one season attests to that. I'm not convinced they can overtake Arsenal, but they will still be a force to be reckoned with.

Man U are in a state of flux, and with Ferguson nearing the end of his days, in two or three years they could be vulnerable, even if they recover their confidence and cohesion in the meantime. It's hard to say which way they are going to go next season: Van Nistelroy and Saha look a potent strikeforce, with Smith an interesting alternative, but the midfield behind them is not what it was in the late 90s, so they were being overrun. However, Ronaldo has started to look the part, and they will have their best defender back from suspension (assuming he remembers to turn up) and have signed a highly-rated player to partner him in Heinze. They will always have money to spend, and can still attract top players, so it would be foolish to write them off, even if it is enjoyable seeing them look so shaky.

Arsenal, meanwhile, just look like a supremely well-run club, from top to bottom. Wenger is building an empire, and you just never got the sense with GH that he was as in control; both men bought duffers, but Wenger bought superbly as well. Wenger seems to have cohesive plans and beliefs, whereas GH never seemed to know whether to stick or twist. Even if Benitez is closer to Wenger in terms of talent to fashion a cohesive side, is it too late to bridge the gap? - for all our improvements, surely Arsenal's team, with it's good average age (not too young, but not to old either), will gel even more in the coming years? Their stadium costs could yet cripple the club, but Wenger has shown he doesn't need an enormous transfer budget.

So the top four will be hugely competitive. I don't think the rest of the league has got worse; I think the top three have got better, and it's our job to make sure we leave teams like Newcastle in our slipstream to become part of a breakaway top four; regular CL qualification could help us continue to grow in strength.


How Will Benitez Go About Making Improvements?

I keep reading that Benitez favours certain formations, but shouldn't the best managers be adaptable? Doesn't a lot depend on the team you inherit, and who you have at your disposal? - after all, you cannot rebuild a team from scratch; at least not initially, that kind of thing takes three or four years (and even then, that will only account for half a side). Also, I keep hearing that he will bring Ayala and Aimar - as if "bringing" them was a really easy thing to do, like popping them in his suitcase and smuggling them through customs (I know Aimar is diminutive, but that's stretching things).

They are players under contract, with huge price tags, and other top (and more financially well-endowed) clubs will be in any hunt for them. They may rate their former manager, but do they desire to leave the champions of the world's best league? Maybe... but as South Americans, the Spanish climate is far more to their liking, surely? - as is the style of football. And so far, Spanish footballers have not adapted as well to English football as the French, where their preparation seems more suited to our game. It would of course be extremely exciting for us, but is it realistic? And consider this: how many players ever actually follow their managers? Not many I can think of, although they may occasionally buy them again at a much later date when they become available.

Could Benitez instead look to someone like Czech playmaker Thomas Rosicky in the hope he could perform the Aimar role (and again, I'm just speculating; Rosicky doesn't exactly look tailor-made for English football, but he is a player of the Aimar ilk who seems is available, and who seems to like the idea of a move to Anfield).

So - do you look to fit players into a system, or suit the system to the players? Or perhaps a bit of both?

I still believe that the team which fields the best players (not just the best going forward, in the Real Madrid mode, but at the back too) - with a decent amount of organisation, and sent out to win games as opposed to avoid losing them - wins the league. Look at Arsenal: man-for-man, they are the best; their teamwork and unity then takes them to an extra level of brilliance. How can you compete with Thierry Henry? Meanwhile, not many forwards got past Campbell and Toure. Or look at the Man U midfield before Beckham left and Keane sagged. The best players, and also playing in a balanced formation, with everyone in their favoured (or optimum) position; you also had the perfect range of skills: the up-and-down ball-winner (Keane), the mazy dribbler (Giggs), the goalscorer (Scholes) and the crosser (Beckham); each could also score goals. Their skills told you where they were best suited playing; there was no need for round pegs in square holes, but their versatility meant they could also momentarily interchange to give the team fluidity.

The best players can play in numerous roles (Gerrard has had great games for LFC in central midfield, of course, but also on both flanks, once or twice at right back, plus at Villa Park, emergency left back). But even the best players have positions where they are most effective. I'm not too bothered where Harry Kewell plays (providing he's fit), as he can offer crosses from the left wing, or on the right wing he can cut inside (just as Pires does, playing on the side opposite to his best foot) and shoot, or up front he can link play and still score goals. But it depends what Benitez sees as his crucial function. He appears to favour width, and while Harry prefers being more infield, he's as good a winger as there is around.

It all comes back to having the best players. You can make all the alterations to the formation, give a thousand different directions from the bench, but if Player X can't control the ball, or beat his marker, or deliver a cross, it counts for nothing. I'm a great believer in players capable of thinking for themselves; it was always the Liverpool way in the 1970s and 1980s: they were bought to do a job, and left alone to do it. They were intelligent footballers, and they had that winning mentality.

That 1982-84 team was as modern a football side as Arsenal, in my eyes. The most tedious argument against comparisons is "but they are so much more fit and professional now" - any comparison would be made on the assumption of a level playing field: the same preparation, diet, etc. Back then, Paisley never used to bother with "tactics", just sending the team out, in formation, to play their natural games. That Liverpool team could still be successful if transposed into the modern game, even without modern tactical interventions, because Dalglish was a genius who could find time and space, and use it to devastating effect; Hansen read the game better than anyone else and Lawrenson was immensely quick and so able to recover from any mistakes; Souness could pass AND destroy; Rush was quick and could finish; McDermott had skill, fantastic stamina and could score goals.

"Modern" players, with pace, aggression, skill, and a wonderful temperament (and as I've mentioned before, a good amount of experience).

Of course, it's not easy getting the best players these days, as there are the best players from France and many other countries here now, not just the best Brits. But as I have said before, GH bought Heskey the same season as Wenger bought Henry, both players costing the same fee. Are you telling me that if Wenger had signed Heskey and GH Henry, that there'd have been a 30 point gap last season? Now it's done, we can't undo it: Henry remains at Arsenal, while Cisse - the next best thing - arrives a season too late to save GH. Even allowing for the different approaches of those two managers, good players win you games. Do you think Wenger has to draw intricate diagrams to Thierry as to where to run, what to do when he gets there? No - because Henry instinctively knows how to best utilise his talents. Wenger's job is to make sure the rest of the team is balanced around Henry, and again it's made all the more easy by other good players: Pires and Viera don't need their hands held when they cross the white line; so Wenger has to work on Ashley Cole's positional play, or who would be a good partner for Viera in the centre – less crucial problems when you have world class match winners.

The problems facing Benitez are: how do you get more great players into your side than Arsenal have in theirs? How do you match Arsenal's team-ethic? And how do you assemble a new team that can compete with a ready-made, already-gelled one? We have half a side who can clearly already compete with Arsenal (Kirkland, Hyypia, Gerrard, Kewell, Owen, Cisse); the trick will be in assembling the other half, as currently they don't come close enough. So Benitez has to make the most of those he already has, and only then consider who to bring in.

So my hunch is that even if Benitez favours the lone striker, he should play Michael Owen and Djibril Cisse together, because they are top quality and you simply don't ignore such talents. The blend might not be ideal initially, and it may need some tweaking, but two such match-winners in your side should be potent, and to my mind it's a manager's job to achieve that. If you cannot play two such prolific strikers in the modern game and make a success of it, then I'd be worried; of course, if your five best players are all strikers, you cannot go down the route of unbalancing your side by playing them all. But 4-4-2 is hardly reverting to Ossie Ardiles' famous five at Spurs. You play those two, and in my eyes, you have two world-class strikers. Cisse, as the bigger and quicker player, plays furthest forward and starts centrally, Owen slightly behind and therefore able to not be so easily marked; balls into the left or right channel are chased by Cisse, and Owen arrives into the box for the cross, or Cisse simply goes alone with his turbo charge burning brightly.

Now you simply need to balance your midfield to have them be both robust and creative. Kewell and Gerrard pick themselves. Didi, if you want to play a diamond formation, is the perfect base.

Any good system should be fluid; teams defend with one shape, attack with another. I only see problems when you throw too many men in at either end of the pitch; 3-5-2, with its dreaded wingbacks, can quite easily end up as 5-3-2, and you have a redundant centre back. 4-3-3 can end up top-heavy; but if two of the wide strikers drop into midfield, you have 4-5-1. For all the speculation, I'm more concerned with the quality of Benitez's purchases, than the formation he prefers.

I think GH tried to buy versatile players: all-round footballers who could fulfill numerous roles; but too many were lacking in the basics of the game.

Control. Composure. The ability to find time on the ball, and space on the pitch. The ability to pass the ball - and that also means judging the speed of a teammate running so you lay it nicely into their path, not five yards behind. Our great sides were built around players with these all-round strengths.

Both Heskey and Diouf - GH's two main investments - failed in the roles they were purchased for. That is arguably their fault for not playing well enough, and GH's fault for buying players either not good enough, or failing to get the best out of them; and then playing them in another position when, put simply, they were arguably never going to be good enough (by Liverpool standards) for ANY position. I still believe good players adapt; after all, football is mostly employing "transferable skills" to different roles: you pass, you control the ball, you run with the ball, you tackle, head the ball, you shoot, you cross. A centre back will do all of those things - even shoot - except probably cross the ball. Otherwise, it's all part of football. Good players can do all those things; average players some; bad players too few.

Of course, you couldn't buy a tiny, skinny flair player like Thomas Rosicky (six stone when ringing wet) and play him at centre half. Every player will have his optimum position. But those whose job it is to attack, should be able to attack from any position across the front or midfield, or even full-back. Diouf has half the skills to be a wide-midfielder - trickery and energy. But he cannot finish, and he cannot cross. He has no composure. Where on the pitch can you succeed without composure?

Look at John Barnes: up to 1990 he was the total flair winger - as good as this country has seen in league football, and he wins Football Writers' Player of the Year; then adapts to centre forward in 1990 and scores 28 goals and wins Football Writers' Player of the Year again; then in 1991 suffers serious injury which removes his pace, so he plays centre midfield in later years under Roy Evans, and while not everyone's cup of tea, still scores a few goals and doesn't misplace a pass for an entire four entire seasons. That's a footballer for you, not a ball-juggler or circus sideshow. Players of that calibre are rare, but Wenger has unearthed a few. It can be done. Although we've not seen the best of Harry Kewell, he is closer to Barnes as an all-round footballer than to El Hadji Diouf.

So while Benitez will inherit the nucleus of a quality side, with some top young talent, and great facilities, he will have his work cut out winning the league at Liverpool; and it will be wrong to expect he will do so. However, we want to believe we might just be able to do it...  And if we do win the title, it might be a one-off, with the next a few years away, as our rivals spend big once more. But after the wait, I'd be more than happy with that.

© Paul Tomkins 2004
« Last Edit: June 11, 2004, 06:10:32 pm by Rushian »

Offline parr

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2004, 06:37:29 pm »
A good read, but couldn't you have at least waited until he's been officially appointed before giving us a dose of realism?  :)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2004, 07:18:36 pm »
A dose of realism perhaps, but at least I expect things to be far better than the last two years!  ;)

Doesn't hurt to lower the expectations to a more realistic level, while hoping for the odd miracle! Unfortunately he's arriving with two of our rivals getting stronger (Arsenal, Chelsea) and Man U possibly not as badly off as we'd like to imagine. The key for Benitez will be if we keep improving, or as with GH, we hit a brick wall after some encouraging forward steps and start regressing.

Offline parr

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2004, 07:40:53 pm »
It's definately not going to be easy.

I think if Arsenal had won the champions league things might actually be a bit easier for us. As it is they've still got that target driving them on, and are unlikely to lose their motivation until they win it.

You mentioned Henry, I think we're going to have make signings like that - players who haven't been showing their best form but are potentially brilliant, because we won't be able persuade the top players to join us over Chelsea or United.

Still, come August and there'll only be one team I'm predicting to win the league. :D

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2004, 07:50:06 pm »
That's the key - finding the Henrys of this world, who are not living up to potential elsewhere and therefore going cheap. I honestly think Cisse will be phenomenal, while not offering the creative side that Henry does. And a good point about Arsenal - teams can break up (Porto, Ajax) after achieving a goal like that. But even then, I sense the Arsenal team would stick together and look to do it again.

I think all we can ask is that Rafa improves us significantly, and then see where that leaves us. (Champions, we hope!).

Offline filopastry

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2004, 08:05:49 pm »
Actually I think a lot of our support (judging by other forums)  needs to be brought down to earth with regards to what they expect from a new man especially given the fact that the teams above us will not be standing still by any stretch of the imagination.

Good post!

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2004, 08:40:14 pm »
I hope I wasn't being too negative; I'm as excited as anyone else! (at least I was until it all went quiet...).

It just needs to be tempered a little; we're not going to win the league and European Cup within 12 months. It's better to start from a nice even keel and let our expectations grow as the team grows.

Offline filopastry

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2004, 08:50:53 pm »
Agreed Paul, as long as we can see progress I like to think most people fans will be patient :)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2004, 09:21:03 pm by filopastry »

Benno Benno

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2004, 09:16:42 pm »
 8) thanks for a great quality analysis - measured, passion underneath, informed

if only rawk had them every day, several times a day

Benno 8)

Offline cornelius

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2004, 10:01:50 pm »
we're not going to win the league and European Cup within 12 months.
I agree that is unrealistic but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Porto and Monaco have shown the way in Europe this season. As for the title I suppose you could say Arsenal are way to far ahead of us, too much class etc but I reckon if Valencia had had that attitude towards Real Madrid 12 months ago they might not be sat there with the title now. I've always believed if you can dream it you can do it. Look at our rivals. Arsenal - they've had an unprecedented run in the league, I doubt they can repeat it and I don't buy into ALL of the hype. Chelsea - In a similar situation to us with a new manager but I can envisage a little bit of instability and unrest. Manchester United - I still believe they are in decline, no doubt about it.
As for us I'm convinced we will improve considerably next season. If Benitez brings in the right players and gets the best out of what we have then why won't we challenge?
Maybe I'm suffering from blind faith or eternal optimism but WE ARE LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB and we have to aim high.
You say that Barca and real perhaps are not sensibly run clubs but are Chelsea, or for that matter United?
If we don't see ourselves as a club CAPABLE of sustaining success like we did before and like United have done then was there any reason for 750,000 people lining the streets in 2001?
Remember even in our pomp we didn't win the title every season, it just felt like it.
I'm sure we can re-elevate ourselves to a position where we are in for the big prizes on a regular basis again, IT CAN HAPPEN.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2004, 01:24:42 am by vladallover »

Offline Koparoo

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2004, 02:46:01 am »
Good level-headed approach - and I agree it's good to not hold up the Premiership trophy before the season starts!!

The exciting thing IS that the competition IS so strong - we play in the Premiership (not the SPL). That's precisely why the title is worth winning, surely?

But one thing you can bet on is that nothing stays the same in such an even competition. This season will be a brand new one - everyone starts with the same number of points...

The "mighty?" ManU  :upyours have been sliding in recent years and the fact that they won the FA Cup against woeful opposition does nothing to reverse that. Who really believes that they can mount a serious challenge this season?? ;)

Chelsea have a "bottomless pit" of money - but for how long? Their benefactor is under financial investigation in his own country... he may soon have more pressing uses for his money (lawyers cost plenty ;)) than throwing it around buying dozens of players only to reject them after a season (at a hugely lesser price). And they have a brand new coach (and an unsettled squad) to bed down - why do you think Mourinho will settle in any quicker than Benitez?? ???

Arsenal remain the big threat coming off an unbelievable season - and frankly they couldn't play better if they tried. And surely that is their biggest weakness. Can they improve? ...maybe (but unlikely)... Can they fall short? ...we know they can (look at the season before last...) ;)

Our beloved LFC - apart from some indifferent performances and efforts by individual players, our season was destroyed by constant changes to the line-up - either imposed by injuries or misguided efforts by GH to get Heskey, Diouff, etc to play themselves into form. Is that likely to happen again? (most unlikely under a new manager ;D!!)

So, while your comments on our rivals are true for last season - you are ignoring the big imponderable that can sort out even the best teams - luck (and the way it most often shows itself, in injuries).

Wenger's team last season had an amazing run with injuries - able to repeatedly put his best team on the track despite a long long season...

(...maybe we should really be trying to recruit their medical staff!! Look how quickly Henry returned and Ljungberg played on with his broken bones...)

The laws of probability say that he will not be able to rely on that same good fortune season after season. In contrast, we had a shocker of a season as we are all too well aware -

...so here's to the new season under our new manager. He WILL have an influence on how we play; it might take some time to translate into results - but I for one am filled with optimism!! ;D

Bring on the pre-season games - I can't wait!!!!
« Last Edit: August 31, 2005, 08:43:09 am by Gareth »
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2004, 08:10:45 am »

If Benitez brings in the right players and gets the best out of what we have then why won't we challenge?


I'm not quite sure you got my tone - there's no (obvious) reason why we won't challenge; but a lot depends on our "challangers" - who have had headstarts. Yes, this is LFC and precisely why 4th wasn't good enough; but Benitez could improve us by 25% in his first season and we could still be 4th! - but far closer to the top three, and that'll be good for starters.

Arsenal have gone through the season unbeaten and you don't believe the hype? What more do they have to do (domestically)?!! And they have so many players at a good age, all of whom are dedicated to Arsenal above riches elsewhere, so they will improve. However, any team is capable of a bad season. But if they have one next year, after Euro2004, I'm not sure we will be strong enough this time around. Benitez will have an immediate impact, but he won't turn us into champions overnight.

How far Benitez can take us relies on many factors that haven't even occurred yet. Believe me, I'm optimistic, but if we expect too much (too soon), we won't enjoy what we do achieve.

Offline cyn

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2004, 08:18:11 am »
Paul, a user named georgiejones reposted your article on lfc.tv:

http://forums.liverpoolfc.tv/Forum3/HTML/279747.html
Author  Topic:   long,but excellent read.. 
georgiejones
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  posted 11 June 2004 07:15 PM         
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(followed by your article)

cyn8
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  posted 11 June 2004 07:30 PM         
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Paul Tomkins is an excellent writer, great to see him back.
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krazyaboutlfc
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  posted 11 June 2004 07:45 PM         
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awesome *yawn*
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Mudface
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  posted 11 June 2004 07:46 PM         
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Good article, perceptive and well written.
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Seattle-Red
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  posted 11 June 2004 08:46 PM         
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Wow. Really well written piece. I read the boards everday during my lunch, but never felt the need to post before. The only down side was that this one took most of my lunch to get through. Hope to see more pieces like this.
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kwakaman
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  posted 11 June 2004 09:15 PM         
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Never mind Benitez lets give P Tomkins the job, the basics are definetly there. Why is it that from the stands we see all this and yet those in the dug out fail to comprehend what is going on in front of them. Liverpool over the past couple of seasons have deteriated where others seem to strengthen we may be getting Cisse but what about that Drogba from Marseille he could do a job for us im sure.
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devilman
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  posted 11 June 2004 10:27 PM         
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excellant read.
GH's biggest problem was poor tactics - we have a nucleus of a very good side, with 3 or 4 quality signings and tactics/strategy we can bridge that gap. Under GH, it was evident over the last 2 years, he had taken us as far as he could.

Unquote

PS Have you read about Wrexham FC's petition to save their ground, the Racecourse?
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?WREXHAM&1

10,000 signatures needed before a meeting on June, 5592 signatures so far.
 


« Last Edit: June 12, 2004, 08:19:49 am by cyn »

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2004, 08:21:27 am »

So, while your comments on our rivals are true for last season - you are ignoring the big imponderable that can sort out even the best teams - luck (and the way it most often shows itself, in injuries).

Wenger's team last season had an amazing run with injuries - able to repeatedly put his best team on the track despite a long long season...



Thanks for the comments, and the above is very true. However, in 2002 Arsenal did the double with SIX first team players missing two months of the season or more (including key men Ljungberg and Pires). That said, you always stand the best chance with your best team, but squad players do make a difference, too.

If Benitez can bring players of Aimar's quality in, then I'll believe we can win the league within two years. But I await his transfer dealings, as I just don't believe even he will tempt Aimar from Spain; and as soon as he is available, what's to stop Chelsea offering twice as much money, and Valencia agreeing to sell him to Chelsea? Once he's made his signings, it'll give everyone a better idea of where he's taking us.



Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2004, 08:26:25 am »
Paul, a user named georgiejones reposted your article on lfc.tv:

Ha-ha! Thanks Cyn, always makes me laugh when my work pops up on other forums. Tend to get a mix of "really like his work" to "he's a total tosser"! Oh, and there's always a "it's too long for me!". Maybe I should do an edited highlights version? ;)

Do people know it's from RAWK? I'd like to think traffic gets directed to this site.

Offline cyn

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2004, 08:32:58 am »
Paul, I think georgiejones reposted everything except RAWK's URL  ;D

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Author  Topic:   long,but excellent read.. 
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  posted 11 June 2004 07:15 PM         
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How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?

Posted by paul_tomkins on Today at 05:45:32pm

Gone are  (etc etc etc)



Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2004, 08:39:05 am »
 ;D

If you see stuff like that, just give RAWK a credit, or a hyperlink.

Still, it's nice to see someone else re-posting for me...  ;)

Offline cyn

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2004, 08:41:54 am »
Paul, I'll edit my post when lfc.tv's boards open in an hour's time to include the link to RAWK.

Meanwhile re Wrexham's petition - I hope that getting enough signatures will help them in some way. Are there any Welsh people that you know who might be interested in signing?

Offline cornelius

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2004, 02:04:17 pm »



I'm not quite sure you got my tone

Well I just felt you were writing us of a little as well as giving us a reality check towards our new manager. I'm not bothered whether it's Benitez or not but at some point we as a club have to deliver. A little patience perhaps but not too much or we could go on forever like this. As a club there is absolutely no reason why we cannot challenge or beat Arsenal for that matter. What as a club do they have that we don't have? The only advantage I can see is their starting 11. Given some of the quality that we already have we are talking about a difference of perhaps 5 or 6 players, maybe less. Football is such a simple game, how difficult can it be to bring in a few players of the calibre we need to get up with Arsenal? We've already brought in one in Cisse and shipped off Heskey, perhaps the first step on the ladder so to speak.
I just feel there is a lack of belief about what we can achieve quickly.

Offline Life

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2004, 10:33:22 am »
Good to see you back Paul...
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2004, 12:43:50 pm »

Given some of the quality that we already have we are talking about a difference of perhaps 5 or 6 players, maybe less. Football is such a simple game, how difficult can it be to bring in a few players of the calibre we need to get up with Arsenal? 


If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it. The above statement makes a mockery of top managers trying to find the right players for the right place to fit the right systems. "How difficult can it be..."? Bloody difficult! Yes, GH finally replaced Heskey with the awesome Cisse. But it took THREE YEARS of trying! GH lost his job in the meantime. Meanwhile, anyone else we fancy buying, Chelsea will bid three times as much for.

I am not writing us off under Benitez - I think he's the right man for the job. But winning the league will be an awesome achievement given that Arsenal are starting way ahead of us, Mancs have the experience, and Chelsea have the money. It is not a case of buying a few players Championship Manager-style.


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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2004, 12:46:52 pm »

Offline cornelius

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2004, 10:21:15 pm »
If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it. Yes, GH finally replaced Heskey with the awesome Cisse. But it took THREE YEARS of trying!
OK I take your point of course it's not EASY but the fact that, as you say, it took 3 years to realise Heskey wasn't good enough just shows how badly we needed to replace the manager. I hope it doesn't take Benitez 3 years to realise that Biscan, Diao, Cheyrou and all the usual suspects aren't good enough either. I realise football isn't champ manager (god that game has a lot to answer for) but if Sam Alladyce can bring in someone like Okocha to Bolton bloody Wanderers to name but one example I think we can safely say it shouldn't be that difficult to bring in the right calibre of player

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2004, 01:11:35 am »

Paul T, refreshing to read an article that goes deeper than the current slosh I've read of late on forums and rags, your analogies hit the spot, great stuff
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Offline Ian-TN

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2004, 01:24:20 am »
Good post mate.

But I don't agree to this Arsenal are so far ahead of everyone else idea. People seem to have seen they didn't lose a league game and seem to think there untouchable, when in truth they only finished 2 points better off than they did the season we finished 2nd. I firmly believe we have a far better squad now then we did then and with one of two additions we will have a far superior squad to that one. That year we finished on 81 points, I don't see why we can't again. We have the players, mostly, all we need to do now is get the playing as a team again. If we do this I do believe that we will be very close to winning the league.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2004, 10:48:55 am »
A couple of responses:

I think Benitez will clear out the dead wood, as it's not his dead wood; the key will be who he signs, and whether they fit in. After all, Biscan, for example, was a good signing in theory, he just never adpated as well as expected. Same Cheyrou and Diouf.

As for Arsenal not being as good as people think - well, I think the table speaks for itself. I don't think I have to justify believing that; they achieved something that hadn't been done for 100 years (and then only in a 22 game season). The points tally was irrelevant; they were unbeatable and won the league with plenty to spare. Just as Liverpool lost one-off two leg ties to inferior teams in the 1980s, Arsenal lost to Chelsea (who were somehow massive underdogs) and the Mancs in the space of a few days, having had to play both teams twice in quick succession. We have to hope that they peaked last season, although the lack of old players (Bergkamp aside) suggests they are not over-the-hill. It is inarguable that we are facing in Arsenal a super-strong team, in Chelsea a super-rich one, and in United, a very rich side with loads of title-winning experience.



Offline cornelius

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2004, 02:48:36 pm »
I agree with you Arsenal have been phenomenal but its very difficult to see them doing the same next season. Let's hope they don't take 6 points from us again for a start. I don't like to harp on about Arsenal but they should be the blueprint for us. They are the most similar of the top 3. Even Wenger has had his fair share of poor transfers but notably he has dealt with them better. Luzhny, Sepanovs, Vivas, Jeffers, van bronckhurst, Volz and now Kanu and Wiltord. Some good, some bad , some awful. Very much like our own usual suspects Traore, Biscan, Diouf, Diao, Cheyrou, Smicer, Murphy, Heskey. Spot the difference. With the exception of Heskey the rest are still here. Wengers done a great job of shipping out and moving on players quickly and at the right time.
Paul I don't disagree with much of what you said. My only contention was I felt there was too much of an air of caution. As Alan Hansen has been saying, rightly in my opinion, right now Liverpool is the dream job. Theres only really one way we can go.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2004, 03:10:16 pm »
How far?

If/When we get Benitez, I reckon he can make us champions. He knows what he's doing. It won't be easy. Arsenal, Chelsea and the Mancs are hungry for success. We need to start all over, catch up and that will be difficult. But I trust Benitez to get the most from our resources. If that's not enough, so be it. But in the past few years, I haven't had faith in GH's abilities to get the most from the players he had at his disposal. If you can't get that, you'll never win the title. Because Wenger, Fergie and JM can get the most from their squads.

GH played everyone everywhere, which in theory is alright since players should be adaptable, but I think it caused a mess more than anything else. I still believe GH signed good players, the problem was he didn't know how to use them. Diao and Biscan are decent CMs. Backup players, competent to do a solid job, sure. Competent enough to form a solid platform for Gerrard and Kewell if Didi is out. Sure. Wingers or fullbacks? No way. If you spend 10M on Diouf, you've got to know where to play him. If you have problems down the left and buy Kewell, you don't start with him on the right. You don't play a diamond midfield and put 4 CBs at the back, where none of the fullbacks are comfortable on the ball on the attacking side of the halfway line. That's what our former manager did. He didn't even get the basics right, so we wasted talent.

Benitez won't do those mistakes. He may not be able to get us to the top straight away. He may not even be able to make us champions, no matter how much he tries, but he will close the gap and he will get the most from his team.

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2004, 03:40:34 pm »
Quality article mate. I agree with your assessment about how important transfers are to the success of a club - as you say Wenger had about the same success to failure record as GH but when Houllier got it right he bought very good players (who weren't particularly young) whereas when Wenger got it right he bought special players or players with the potential to be special (most of whom at a young age, meaning they also had a high sell on value - Anelka).  In a league players are far more important than tactics - that is why Chelsea didn't win the league last season they had loads of very good players (a very solid squad) but few if any truly special players aside from Duff who was injured for the maority of the season. For this reason I think it is vital we sign some real top quality particularly a midfielder with an extremely high level of creativity a la Aimar as I feel our main strength next year will be the pace and power of Owen, Cisse and Kewell (all primarily runners and finishers) and we need to add someone with the guile to give them the service they would thrive on. Also I feel that with a couple of additions and Benitez's management we are far more likely to win the Champions League than the Prem as our front trio will be ideal for knockout football.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2004, 04:12:07 pm »
I think it is a dream job. I really think a decent manager could take us forward, and a top manager take us a long way. It just depends how far it needs to be - we could have had another 29 points this season and still not won the league. The top four will pull away from the rest, and then it could come down to head-to-head matches between the big guns. But so long as we're considered a big gun again, that'll do me for now. I really think the top four could each win the title in the next four seasons - but that doesn't mean that if we win it once, we could win it again quickly. It's merely about being competitive, and Benitez will make us that. Then it could come down something as petty as luck...

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2004, 05:39:53 pm »
Very good article; you weren't being negative, just realistic, and I agree with that attitude.  I don't think that any manager that comes to Liverpool will win the title just because of our past, though whoever that manager is can use the past as a driving force; it will take a lot of hard work and focus; and we fans shouldn't expect to be winning everything year after year.

Where I disagree with you is on Diouf; I think he can still deliver, but he probably needs to be shown a stick (or the door if doesn't comply).  Or it's just that I like Diouf and I've said so many good things about him last season, so I just don't want to lose face  ;)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2004, 05:41:25 pm by Bloke »

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2004, 05:54:32 pm »
Cheers! I don't like being thought of as negative, as it leads people to infer that I don't care about the club.

I think Diouf has the skills I mentioned, but 21 league goals in SIX seasons suggests no end product; we've seen as much for ourselves. He has great control and works hard, but he just has a rush of blood in the final third; the only time he was outstanding was against Blackburn, once Neill was sent off. If Benitez can get the best out of him, fair enough. I just won't be holding my breath...

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2004, 06:03:37 pm »
He did have a good start of the season when he was interchanging positions with Kewell, and opposition defenders didn't seem to know what to do about him; that's what I think he should do more often.

What he lacked was a finishing touch, whether in crossing/passing, or in shooting (or just trying to shoot at all), and he needs to keep the ball less when he gets close to goal: either pass or take a shot; so I agree he should score more goals, regardless of where he plays.

Anyway not wanting to divert from the topic, great article overall.  The thought of Owen and Cisse upfront sends shivers down my spine.  :)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2004, 06:55:09 pm »
I'm just not sure end product is something players suddenly learn. Perhaps he might get more composure with age; maybe not!

But yeah, Cisse and Owen, with Kewell and Gerrard in the midfield (and one new star on the right) could be awesome.  :)

Bloke

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2004, 09:52:21 pm »
More cause for optimism:
http://www.4thegame.com/club/lfc/news/156438/
Nice attitude Djib!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2004, 09:55:37 pm by Bloke »

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2004, 11:01:06 pm »
Nice post!

I actually do think Benitez will Win us the title and fairly soon.

Football is as much played in the mind as it is by the feet.

Benitez has a totally different approach than GED. He talks of taking each game as it comes instead of 5 year plans.
He's already said he's come here to win, and I reckon he really means it.

I get the feeling that even if he lost Steven Gerrard and Owen it wouldn't affect his mental attitude and approach to each game. The players IMHO will soon pick up on his more positive mental attitude and will start running through walls for him.

I really do believe that Benitez will win us the title.
I also think we'll see a difference in the way our team plays straight away. They use more width and keep possession a lot better.
Basically pass and move will be the agenda, but it'll be faster and more positive than we've seen for a long while.
It won't be Roy Evans pass and move, where we passed the opposition into a coma with no end result.
It'll be a positive brand of keeping the ball and looking for openings.

Personally I can't wait for the start of the season.

If Gerrard goes, he goes, same as Owen.

But we've got Benitez here now and all is well on the football front. Pass and move has returned to Anfield.

Offline mr_mad_master

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2004, 07:31:46 am »
I think were going to win the league and we should and all that lardy da but if we dont it doesnt mean ill be dissapointed and calling rafa a twat alot will happen through the season and football has alot more to it than finishing 1st or 2nd
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Offline Trell

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Re: How Far Can Benitez Realistically Take Liverpool FC?
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2004, 05:17:39 pm »

Personally i think the biggest change to our season will be in the attacking role.

For the last couple of seasons we have been relying almost solely on Michael to provide the goals and ALSO the threat to the opposition defence. Heskey did his best but he simply was not feared by other teams and Baros rarely got a run out.

Consider how much difference a second dangerous striker will make to the fortunes of the club. Instead of  2 defenders constantly standing on MO's feet they will have to watch Baros or Cisse as well and that will effect the way the opposition play.

Many of our points last season were lost by one goal being scored, including a lot of games where we were forced back into defending a lead only to lose that lead becuase we were defending too deep and sending hopeless balls 60 yards to a battle worn and outnumbered striker.

With a second Dangerous striker up front to support MO, teams wont be so keen to force us backwards by throwing caution to the winds. They cant just leave 2 defenders back to mark MO if they have the pace of Cisse to deal with as well and i suspect a lot more teams will now be worrying about Baros as well.

I am not saying we'll kill everything they throw at us but i am saying that the style and therefore the results could be changed utterly with a more effective strike force playing alongside MO.

I think i would be dissapointed if we dont challenge for at least second. I am not Ruling out challenging arsenal for first spot but i realise it will take time for Benitez to get things sorted out his way and to merge whatever new players he brings into the unit.

Oh the anticipation of a coordinated team attack is making me drool.
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