Author Topic: The most expensive drawing in history  (Read 39718 times)

Offline rossipersempre

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #120 on: July 14, 2010, 09:10:13 pm »
That £50m-plus not looking so squeaky clean now is it? Hicks Real Estate investigate for fraud? Surely not ::)

I purposely left out the last line of the email I got from my architect mate following his assertion that given the details, he felt someone somewhere was making big money as I didn't think it relevant or appropriate. Not so sure now.

He ended with "I take it you've seen The Long Good Friday?"

Thing is I only wish it were true, as at least someone somewhere would be casting a nice set of concrete booties for our fat malignant cyst of a custodian. Can't see RBS go to such lengths more's the pity.
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Offline ep1987

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #121 on: July 14, 2010, 09:28:50 pm »
Regarding the nepotism towards HKS, does anyone else think that an air of illegallity or at least illegitemacy surrounds such dealings; when a party purchases a business through a leveraged buy-out and proceeds to increase the amount of debt said business must service?

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #122 on: July 14, 2010, 09:36:02 pm »

As well as being more expensive, than the UK equivalent.  The info might not be as full.
It aint a coincidence that Delaware is such a popular place for US companies to be registered.  It's coz the owners have more privacy.
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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #123 on: July 14, 2010, 11:35:17 pm »
El Zhar will be like the ugly strange mongrel that no-one wants to adopt.  I fear for us finding him a safe home where he won't be abused.
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Offline vicgill

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #124 on: July 15, 2010, 10:50:31 am »
El Zhar will be like the ugly strange mongrel that no-one wants to adopt.  I fear for us finding him a safe home where he won't be abused.

Wrong thread  ???
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Offline tomred

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2010, 01:06:11 pm »
Brilliant piece of work Roy.

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2010, 01:09:27 pm »

Wrong thread  ???

Haha think he was replying to Jack's last sentence big man (the club's like Battersea Dog's Home just now)

Offline vicgill

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #127 on: July 16, 2010, 04:00:37 pm »
Haha think he was replying to Jack's last sentence big man (the club's like Battersea Dog's Home just now)


typical me, burst down the door when the key is under the mat
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Offline redmark

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #128 on: July 16, 2010, 11:12:41 pm »
Posted this as the first comment in 'another place', but I think you've actually underestimated just how expensive this drawing (set of drawings, etc) really is.

Tom Hicks: “Financing for the Liverpool stadium is now available, but we decided that we wanted to sell and allow the new owner to build the stadium. We believe the fact that the design and the permitting process is complete should be reflected in the value we receive in the sale.”

To me, this is the most bizarre statement Hicks has made – which involves a lot of competition. The club is generally valued at somewhere around £300m, perhaps £350m maximum. Hicks wants to sell for £800m – based on the stadium design being completed.

He’s now valuing this drawing at £450m.
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Offline vicgill

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #129 on: July 17, 2010, 09:43:52 am »
Posted this as the first comment in 'another place', but I think you've actually underestimated just how expensive this drawing (set of drawings, etc) really is.

Tom Hicks: “Financing for the Liverpool stadium is now available, but we decided that we wanted to sell and allow the new owner to build the stadium. We believe the fact that the design and the permitting process is complete should be reflected in the value we receive in the sale.”

To me, this is the most bizarre statement Hicks has made – which involves a lot of competition. The club is generally valued at somewhere around £300m, perhaps £350m maximum. Hicks wants to sell for £800m – based on the stadium design being completed.

He’s now valuing this drawing at £450m.


 that hurts
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

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Offline Red number seven

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #130 on: July 17, 2010, 09:51:23 am »
For a cost of £10, you could buy a spade. After 3 years of digging, we'd be a lot closer to that new stadium than we are now.

It's an embarrassment and it's the sort of incompetence we've been getting used to with the current owners.
Don't be ridiculous. The cost of a spade in from HCKS hardware store, Dallas, is 12 Million pounds.
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Offline Liverbird 2010

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #131 on: July 17, 2010, 09:54:37 am »
Posted this as the first comment in 'another place', but I think you've actually underestimated just how expensive this drawing (set of drawings, etc) really is.

Tom Hicks: “Financing for the Liverpool stadium is now available, but we decided that we wanted to sell and allow the new owner to build the stadium. We believe the fact that the design and the permitting process is complete should be reflected in the value we receive in the sale.”

To me, this is the most bizarre statement Hicks has made – which involves a lot of competition. The club is generally valued at somewhere around £300m, perhaps £350m maximum. Hicks wants to sell for £800m – based on the stadium design being completed.

He’s now valuing this drawing at £450m.


What Tom Hicks wants and what Tom Hicks gets are two different things.
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Offline Goethe

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #132 on: July 17, 2010, 11:36:59 am »
That £50m-plus not looking so squeaky clean now is it? Hicks Real Estate investigate for fraud? Surely not ::)

I purposely left out the last line of the email I got from my architect mate following his assertion that given the details, he felt someone somewhere was making big money as I didn't think it relevant or appropriate. Not so sure now.

He ended with "I take it you've seen The Long Good Friday?"

Thing is I only wish it were true, as at least someone somewhere would be casting a nice set of concrete booties for our fat malignant cyst of a custodian. Can't see RBS go to such lengths more's the pity.


Hi Rossi, I've been reading with some interest your exhortations to pressurise RBS regarding the high likelihood of the Tumours defaulting on their loan payments. I'm not sure whether that angle will actually be that profitable for us; I'm pretty sure that a bunch of sleazy, cynical city bankers-even ones possessed of demonstrable incompetence-will not have handed out a loan worth several hundred millions of pounds to a pair of well-documented degenerates and chancers without having arranged a series of judicious Credit Default Swaps or similar such instruments. (For those who don't know, it boils down to a form of de facto insurance against bad loans, at a substantial premium, but not usually with an insurance company per se; they got a terrible name during the credit crisis because of their pervasiveness in 'insuring' bad loans and highly structured, dodgy financial products, with people seeking CDS knowing full well that a loan book was likely to be full of defaults and with dodgy credit rating agencies giving out ludicrously high ratings).

If this is indeed the case, RBS will have been, and will continue to be happy to collect the whopping debt interest repayments from our loathsome yank friends (ie, revenues which should be reinvested into our club), which in and of themselves represent a very sexy profit for them once you factor in the bank's recouping of most of the initial loan outlay in the event of a default.  I hope I'm wrong.

Offline vicgill

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #133 on: July 17, 2010, 03:44:37 pm »

Hi Rossi, I've been reading with some interest your exhortations to pressurise RBS regarding the high likelihood of the Tumours defaulting on their loan payments. I'm not sure whether that angle will actually be that profitable for us; I'm pretty sure that a bunch of sleazy, cynical city bankers-even ones possessed of demonstrable incompetence-will not have handed out a loan worth several hundred millions of pounds to a pair of well-documented degenerates and chancers without having arranged a series of judicious Credit Default Swaps or similar such instruments. (For those who don't know, it boils down to a form of de facto insurance against bad loans, at a substantial premium, but not usually with an insurance company per se; they got a terrible name during the credit crisis because of their pervasiveness in 'insuring' bad loans and highly structured, dodgy financial products, with people seeking CDS knowing full well that a loan book was likely to be full of defaults and with dodgy credit rating agencies giving out ludicrously high ratings).

If this is indeed the case, RBS will have been, and will continue to be happy to collect the whopping debt interest repayments from our loathsome yank friends (ie, revenues which should be reinvested into our club), which in and of themselves represent a very sexy profit for them once you factor in the bank's recouping of most of the initial loan outlay in the event of a default.  I hope I'm wrong.

I hope you're wrong too, if that is the case is there anything we can do about it
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

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RIP Ray Osbourne, comrade, epic swindler, and Internet Terrorist Extraordinaire.

Offline Goethe

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #134 on: July 17, 2010, 04:00:31 pm »
I hope you're wrong too, if that is the case is there anything we can do about it


I really don't know...  :(   I guess just keep applying the pressure anyway, and hope that this isn't the case, or that there are complications to the structuring that would still leave RBS in the shit if these cancerous scumbags default; that wouldn't be unheard of in today's climate, even if the bank did take precautionary measures, what with litigation lawyers retrospectively crawling all over arrangements like this at the moment.  I'd say keep applying the pressure in the hope that the tumours think 'fuck it, this isn't worth the damage to our business reputation', but they thrive on their notoriety as cretins, it seems; think back to Hicks' gloating over defaulting on payments as a negotiating tactic. In any case, the more pressure, and the more vituperative and hostile it is, the better.

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #135 on: July 17, 2010, 04:29:31 pm »
We keep staking our claim I think - its all we can do.

Offline Pilchard

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #136 on: July 17, 2010, 04:56:55 pm »
Feel sick reading the OP. Lying thieving bastards.

How much to review a plan for a stadium thats already been drawn.

Pot of coffee
few butties
bottles of water
projector and lap top (from the board room)
Marker board  (from the board room)
Big table for plans  (from the board room).

GH. Dont like these toilets here. move them there
TH. These turnstiles are great but paint them red.
GH. And can we put a few more seats in here and here? Make them all corporate though

Chair-person. Any other business? No, right The Sandons open....

Total cost, less than £100.

Thats probably why I have to work everyday. Im not clever enough to find a client mad enough to charge astronomical amounts to.
 
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #137 on: July 17, 2010, 05:13:42 pm »
If RBS were sanguine about letting things continue, then they wouldn't have been asking for the debt to have been paid down.
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Offline vicgill

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #138 on: July 19, 2010, 08:17:18 am »
Feel sick reading the OP. Lying thieving bastards.

How much to review a plan for a stadium thats already been drawn.

Pot of coffee
few butties
bottles of water
projector and lap top (from the board room)
Marker board  (from the board room)
Big table for plans  (from the board room).

GH. Dont like these toilets here. move them there
TH. These turnstiles are great but paint them red.
GH. And can we put a few more seats in here and here? Make them all corporate though

Chair-person. Any other business? No, right The Sandons open....

Total cost, less than £100.

Thats probably why I have to work everyday. Im not clever enough to find a client mad enough to charge astronomical amounts to.
 

Well they got lucky when they stumbled on our very own Mr, Moores
"Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and making yourself available to receive a pass, it is really that simple"

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royhendo

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #139 on: July 19, 2010, 08:21:36 am »
Bunch of doom mongers you lot.

Offline rossipersempre

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #140 on: July 19, 2010, 10:34:38 am »

Hi Rossi, I've been reading with some interest your exhortations to pressurise RBS regarding the high likelihood of the Tumours defaulting on their loan payments. I'm not sure whether that angle will actually be that profitable for us; I'm pretty sure that a bunch of sleazy, cynical city bankers-even ones possessed of demonstrable incompetence-will not have handed out a loan worth several hundred millions of pounds to a pair of well-documented degenerates and chancers without having arranged a series of judicious Credit Default Swaps or similar such instruments. (For those who don't know, it boils down to a form of de facto insurance against bad loans, at a substantial premium, but not usually with an insurance company per se; they got a terrible name during the credit crisis because of their pervasiveness in 'insuring' bad loans and highly structured, dodgy financial products, with people seeking CDS knowing full well that a loan book was likely to be full of defaults and with dodgy credit rating agencies giving out ludicrously high ratings).

If this is indeed the case, RBS will have been, and will continue to be happy to collect the whopping debt interest repayments from our loathsome yank friends (ie, revenues which should be reinvested into our club), which in and of themselves represent a very sexy profit for them once you factor in the bank's recouping of most of the initial loan outlay in the event of a default.  I hope I'm wrong.
You're wrong thankfully. RBS are very far from happy about what is going on, quite the opposite in fact. The interest is now pretty much irrelevant to them, Hicks' default and the increasing pressure being brought to bear on them over the ongoing loan facility and financial mismanagement (KPMG's conclusions) mean this is a ticking time bomb for them, not least in terms of PR.

As said above, why have they been constantly trying to reduce the loan? Furthermore, why was Broughton appointed? And at whose insistence? Still doubt it? Ask yourself why their top man Hester granted an interview to local press recently commenting directly on the club's borrowings, describing them more or less as irresponsible. It's very evident that RBS just want this increasingly toxic loan paid down in full asap (via a sale), and to get back to business as usual, servicing the club's normal day to day financial needs, as they have done for years before the Tumours ever showed up.

Fact is, they are wobbling, teetering on the edge of the scary precipice that they know a leap from is necessary. They don't yet have the courage of their convictions, but they are definitely psyching themselves up, especially if they receive no concrete assurances about a sale in the next few weeks as requested. Which is why as stakeholders, we need to continue to be standing to their side, effectively shouting "JUMP! JUMP!!!!" using whatever pressure we can apply.
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Offline rossipersempre

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #141 on: July 19, 2010, 10:48:59 am »
Back on to the stadium, it's all very well citing all the background work done so far, in terms of surveys etc., but the fact remains all there is to show for it is a few architectural renders, the cost of which to produce has been more expensive than to purchase this daub, painted by a certain mad Dutchman (no, not Erik Meijer)...



At least, that piece of art would represent an investment, whereas those hi-res jpegs from HKS are, as ever, utterly worthless.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 10:51:20 am by rossipersempre »
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Offline Goethe

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #142 on: July 19, 2010, 12:05:52 pm »
You're wrong thankfully. RBS are very far from happy about what is going on, quite the opposite in fact. The interest is now pretty much irrelevant to them, Hicks' default and the increasing pressure being brought to bear on them over the ongoing loan facility and financial mismanagement (KPMG's conclusions) mean this is a ticking time bomb for them, not least in terms of PR.

As said above, why have they been constantly trying to reduce the loan? Furthermore, why was Broughton appointed? And at whose insistence? Still doubt it? Ask yourself why their top man Hester granted an interview to local press recently commenting directly on the club's borrowings, describing them more or less as irresponsible. It's very evident that RBS just want this increasingly toxic loan paid down in full asap (via a sale), and to get back to business as usual, servicing the club's normal day to day financial needs, as they have done for years before the Tumours ever showed up.

Fact is, they are wobbling, teetering on the edge of the scary precipice that they know a leap from is necessary. They don't yet have the courage of their convictions, but they are definitely psyching themselves up, especially if they receive no concrete assurances about a sale in the next few weeks as requested. Which is why as stakeholders, we need to continue to be standing to their side, effectively shouting "JUMP! JUMP!!!!" using whatever pressure we can apply.

Yeah, that makes sense. Still strikes me as a bit strange that RBS' CorpFin division didn't take any precautionary measures though, given that a bit of desk research 4 years ago would have set the alarm bells ringing about these two utter c*nts. Though, at this stage, no level of incompetence at that institution would surprise me.  If you're right, perhaps we've been perversely lucky, in that it might work to our advantage if no hay can be made from a G&H default on the RBS side of things.

Offline GaryM

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #143 on: July 19, 2010, 08:51:47 pm »
Yeah, that makes sense. Still strikes me as a bit strange that RBS' CorpFin division didn't take any precautionary measures though, given that a bit of desk research 4 years ago would have set the alarm bells ringing about these two utter c*nts. Though, at this stage, no level of incompetence at that institution would surprise me.  If you're right, perhaps we've been perversely lucky, in that it might work to our advantage if no hay can be made from a G&H default on the RBS side of things.

If only somebody, anybody, in a position of authority had done their research.
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Offline horne

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #144 on: July 20, 2010, 12:42:42 am »
Shankly simplified a complex sport...the man genius got results....

On the same principle..

All business depends on customers...take away the customers ....youve got problems!
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Offline No666

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #145 on: July 22, 2010, 01:40:51 pm »
Did anyone ever find out what relation Gerry Hicks (former vice president HKS, recipient of so much LFC money) is to Tom Hicks? (if any.) I'm told a Bill Hicks used to be involved with HKS too. I guess Texas based reds may know.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 01:52:17 pm by No666 »

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #146 on: May 3, 2012, 01:20:42 pm »
Maybe worth a bump as a reminder, albeit the original post was skewed from an admittedly 'propagandist' angle.

Offline conman

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #147 on: May 3, 2012, 01:24:47 pm »
Maybe worth a bump as a reminder, albeit the original post was skewed from an admittedly 'propagandist' angle.
worthy alright, but not the most expensive anymore ..

edit: so we are still paying these bloody fees?
« Last Edit: May 3, 2012, 01:28:02 pm by conman »

Offline Suarez 7

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #148 on: May 3, 2012, 01:27:35 pm »
How does it cost us so much to make some fucking drawings
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Offline redk84

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #149 on: May 3, 2012, 01:32:51 pm »
i was surprised by some of the costs of other stadiums....

obviously timing/location with property value and all that...but...some are relatively cheap considering their respective capacity!
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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #150 on: May 3, 2012, 01:37:19 pm »
How does it cost us so much to make some fucking drawings

It doesn't. They're invented fee costs paid by Hicks to himself via HKS

I'll repost what i posted in the other thread.

I'm not an accountant but I've been involved in the financial side of construction all my life. And I can say without the slightest fear of contradiction from anybody that there is no fuckin way on god's earth that the fees and associated costs on any abortive project of that size would amount to any more than one fifth of the amount they are claiming.

No fuckin way. Not a fuckin chance.

I can only guess Ayres and the club have their hands tied legally in some way to reveal the real truth behind such an outrageously inflated figure.

I can only presume the most likely explanation is that in some way shape or form Hicks and Gillett used dummy fee invoices from HKS or other construction consultants as their way of taking money out of the club. Unless they're incredibly ignorant of realistic construction fee costs [which I'm convinced is not the case] then Henry, Werner and Ayre must know full well that serious fraud has taken place but they must be advised against expressing such a view and, besides, they also know the horse has already bolted and they'd never get the money so it's now a write off.

Just to reflect though, if the real abortive fee costs were circa £7 million and this write off is circa £35 million it means H&G must have taken by fraudulent means around £28 million out of the club's finances. When you add to that the amount the club had to pay out in interest charges to pay for H&G's borrowing to initially purchase and then to finance the running of the club you begin to realise just how incredibly lucky we were that a British Court gave us a way out of the quagmire of debt.   

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #151 on: May 3, 2012, 01:38:17 pm »
Second re-post from the other thread:

Just received a pm from someone with some inside information confirming that my logic concerning the huge fee rip off is very likely the case.

As it is I've no inside information. I just know construction fee costs since I've been so heavily involved in them throughout my career and so I'm simply applying what I know to be sound logic in assessing what the realistic costs for such a project reaching the stage it reached.

For what was done by HKS up to the time the project was ditched, I'd actually doubt whether authentic consultancy costs would have exceeded a million. A million and a half tops. Fee accounts are easily invented and fiddled at any time but with an incestuous Client/Consultant relationship and a project of that scale with what seem like impressive high tech images but which are actually nothing special in that sphere of work it becomes the easiest thing in the world - as Hicks and HKS seem to have so capably demonstrated. The thing is even had the design project reached its fruition and been built and occupied by LFC, I doubt very much whether the total competitive fees including architectural, surveying, structural and services engineering would have exceeded £30 million.

I can only surmise that LFC are advised that to go down the legal route of recovering the money from Hicks/HKS would be too costly and may not be provable. However, I would like to think that they have at the very least consulted professional people in the know such as myself to advise upon what the realistic fee costs should have been before they close any door on seeking redress for the club and its fans.


Offline Benbo

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #152 on: May 3, 2012, 01:44:21 pm »
Oh my god..... just.... oh my god. Fucking speechless.
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Offline joe ®

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #153 on: May 3, 2012, 01:46:44 pm »
Thanks for summarising what many of us were thinking, Timbo.

And after all this, Hicks had the fucking cheek to try and sue Broughton for the sale of the club. The fucking gall of the man beggars belief. If there was an 'epic swindle' involved in Liverpool football club's financial transactions, it wasn't fucking taking the club off Hicks, that's for sure.

Offline No666

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #154 on: May 3, 2012, 01:48:36 pm »
Tony Evans on twitter. I'd hazard he has heard the same rumours:

£35m in stadium costs for LFC?. When there's not even a sandcastle built? Something stinks. Real bad

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #155 on: May 3, 2012, 02:06:46 pm »
Our drawing was less than half the price of the one just sold in NY though.  And ours was proper not some nonsense in crayon on a piece of cardboard.
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Offline The Crimson Pirate

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #156 on: May 3, 2012, 02:09:32 pm »
Our drawing was less than half the price of the one just sold in NY though.  And ours was proper not some nonsense in crayon on a piece of cardboard.

Something about a screaming Norwegian that has an 'Anfield 2012' poetic resonance though.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #157 on: May 3, 2012, 02:17:52 pm »
Something about a screaming Norwegian that has an 'Anfield 2012' poetic resonance though.

:D  I had one behind me on Tuesday night as it happens.
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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #158 on: May 3, 2012, 02:24:40 pm »
Something about a screaming Norwegian that has an 'Anfield 2012' poetic resonance though.
An artwork prone to being subjected to theft as well.
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Re: The most expensive drawing in history
« Reply #159 on: May 3, 2012, 05:54:24 pm »
Our drawing was less than half the price of the one just sold in NY though.  And ours was proper not some nonsense in crayon on a piece of cardboard.

Try selling it! :)
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I might be in!