Author Topic: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive  (Read 11135 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« on: October 23, 2005, 07:25:56 pm »
Happy bunnies: they are an endangered species. And understandably so. There's not a lot to be happy about with regard to this season's domestic form.

But while I'm not exactly happy, I still don't see a lot to panic about, and as for those doubting Rafa: oh ye of little faith.

I choose to stay positive. Sure, I'm not expecting great things in the league this year, but I do believe that this team can gel in time for another Champions League qualification, and that's all I was expecting at the outset.

(For a while we were desperate to qualify for that competition; now we've won it, and are doing well once again, but it's not enough.)

Did we forget the work that was needed? And are we not going to give those changes time to come to fruition?

The teams currently doing well in the Premiership are mostly the kind of early pace setters who hit a wall by January. If it's true to say that a game isn't lost simply by going a goal down in the first ten minutes, then a season isn't over after a disappointing start. It makes things harder, of course; but nothing is decided.

I had been saying this season that if we continued to improve on last season's equivalent fixtures, then we'd end up with a lot more points. It's logical. However, I also said last week that if the Reds drop points at Fulham, then it leaves us back at square one, and that's where it feels like we've ended up. It is imperative that games like that at Craven Cottage are won.

It's a kick in the teeth, but it's not a disaster. It's still early days. There are still 87 points to play for. Panic in sport gets you nowhere.

It was strange that Rafa went into this game with two up front, what lots of people have been crying out for, and the team was lacklustre and created little. When Cissé switched to the right wing, in a formation that was closer to 4-5-1, suddenly the chances arrived. But yet again, they weren't taken (partly down to Tony Warner's fine cameo).

I was happy at what looked an attacking line-up before the game. I have no problem with 4-4-2, just as I don't mind 4-5-1. Both of these formations have been used to win major trophies in recent years, unlike something like 3-5-2, with its wingbacks, which never led to any major trophies, and which teams only revert to in desperation. But 4-5-1 gets all the unfair press.

The Premiership has changed from the days of blanket 4-4-2 in the mid-90s. Man United fans chanting for 4-4-2 strikes me more a cry to be the best side again, and looking for any reason to explain their recent failure. To me, they no longer have the best players. Living in the past is not the answer. Do Blackpool fans chant for 2-3-5 formations?

So many teams play five in midfield, including Fulham, that it's an area where you need to win the battle in order to have any say in the match. When Liverpool play with five midfielders the chances are arriving, just not being taken by players who can score goals.

Form is transitory. If 'class' isn't seeping from every pore of the current side, I can at least see that there are some 'permanent' examples of quality at the club.

I wouldn't have been able to write anything in the last two years of Gérard Houllier's reign, as the football was directionless and torturous to watch, and positives were nearly impossible to find. The crucial difference was that Houllier was well into his tenure. 

He had built his team over the previous four seasons - got things precisely the way he wanted them - and as such, once the rot set in things were only likely to get worse, not better. He had a good stab at things, came fairly close to the league title, but ultimately fell short, despite the rewards of 2001.

There is a saying in life: guests are like fish – they start to smell on the third day. Managers are similar: they start to lose their freshness after the third year. If a manager at a top club like Liverpool hasn't won one of the top two prizes in his first three years, his players will question his leadership. But good managers usually get better, year on year, in their first three seasons.

Houllier never landed one of the 'big two' at Anfield, and it got ever harder to convince his players that he could. Unlike Benítez, I never felt Houllier could land one of the top prizes, for all the beneficial things he did for the club.

Benítez took just ten months, just as he had with Valencia when winning the league. I don't see these as accidents, or in any way coincidental, especially as neither side was in perfect shape upon his arrival. Only the very best can work such wonders.

If anyone thinks Benítez won the Champions League in May with a great side, they are wrong. Liverpool were fully deserving of the title, as they earned it. But it was from a team playing out of its skin, and using all the manager's tactical tricks; a team that no one – no one! – would have believed capable of such achievements six months earlier.

Again: any manager who can achieve such remarkable things has to be trusted and given time. If it means backwards steps along the way, so be it. Overhauling any squad leads to lots of new faces, and a lack of understanding. You might get lucky; otherwise it takes time to gel. Especially if you are taking over a team that was struggling, and lacking quality in depth (so unlike Wenger in 1996, and Mourinho in 2004).

Problem solving

Does it all feel like a backwards step at present? Sure. Are we struggling to score goals? Sure. Are key components still missing? Sure. But that's being addressed ahead of January, even if it has taken a few months longer than was ideal.

If last season had been a disaster on all fronts, many would have shrugged their shoulders and blamed Houllier's legacy. The task would have remained the same this season: Rafa would have had 2004/05 to assess what he inherited, and begin building his team.

But by winning the Champions League, Benítez has made his own millstone. Where I look at it as proof that the man can work miracles, others now see only decline this season.

The domestic form remains a worry. But it's not a problem Rafa cannot solve. English football is different to that on the continent; but not so different that it resembles another sport. Football men understand football; and what they don't at first understand, they learn.

But how much of it is to do with the difficulties of playing two fixtures every week, when most of our opponents only play one? This weekend, Manchester United and Chelsea could only draw games they were expected to win, and Arsenal limped to victory at Highbury.

Last season, many of the teams in Europe saw their form radically affected by the extra midweek games; Boro were terrible until they went out of the Uefa Cup, at which point they finally found some form. This season, Boro are once again struggling, while Everton are having the mother of all nightmare starts to the season, and lost all four of their fixtures following their brief European campaign.

With so many teams playing five man midfields, they aim to stifle and overpower tired teams after their extra midweek exertions, and to make the most of extra time to prepare tactically.

When Liverpool have had a full week to prepare for domestic games, the results have tended to be far better, if not exactly perfect. Does that tell you that Rafa doesn't understand English football, or that the players are struggling for freshness and that extra bit of spark? Perhaps rotating some of the players isn't helping, but then if you didn't you might have eleven tired pairs of legs, instead of seven. It's swings and roundabouts.

However fit footballers are, it's always easier if you haven't just played a game and travelled long distances in the previous 72 hours. That will always be the case, until we pay to watch androids.

But it's a problem the other top teams face, and one that needs solving. So far this season, only Chelsea are dealing with it to the level that is expected, and they are the only club with the money to buy the kind of strength in depth that others can only dream about. Bolton, meanwhile, continue to punch above their weight, but are behind where they were last season.

In Liverpool's case, it's a mixture of problems: the poor form of certain individuals, mixed with a couple of key injuries and the rusty return from lay-offs of others, added to the handful of new players trying to settle in (and the players adapt to their strengths), plus the areas where strengthening never materialised, is all contributing to the domestic struggles of the team.

There are no major, unsolvable problems in any of these areas; but enough minor ones that are adding up to something more.

Crisis? What crisis?

In "Golden Past, Red Future" I ridiculed the 'Liverpool in Crisis' stories from January, after the FA Cup defeat at Burnley. If anyone thinks I was being wise after the event, given that the Reds went on to be crowned be European Champions, it was an extension of an internet article written at the time.

I don't see the point in panicking. In the book I also talk about Newcastle United, using them as an example of big-spending panic-mongers with passionate and vociferous support (constantly restless and impatient fans), who chop and change managers at the first hint of trouble. 

What have they won in the last 50 years? Each manager they appoint is the diametric opposite of his predecessor as they lurch from one extreme to the other. It leads nowhere.

So while I'm not exactly happy with the way the season is unfolding, I will remain positive, and patient. I see no alternative.

©Paul Tomkins 2005

There are only a limited number of copies of 'Golden Past, Red Future' remaining, and there will not be a further reprint. The price for all final copies is £6.99. For details, go to www.paultomkins.com
« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 07:35:59 pm by Rushian »

Offline RyanBabelsFish

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2005, 07:28:23 pm »
yeah, fair enough. But some of these problems are of our own making. I don't accept the selling of Baros was a good move and I am still far from convinced of Crouch.
I know Benitez won the league in Spain, but there is a reason its always said winning a league in a foreign country is so difficult. Are we not entitled to have expected him to have learnt a little more about the Premiership from last season.
I accept we aren't in a crisis, but I feel we're heading that way, and being unable to score will be the root cause of this.
Remember Everton, one of those early pace setters who were predicited to hit a wall in January last season?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 07:32:46 pm by bee1101 »
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Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2005, 07:30:49 pm »
Well said Paul - I agree with much of what you say and I have to say I think its pathetic that you've been criticised on here recently for being 'too positive'. The CL win has raised expectations sky high and staying patient, as you say in your last sentence, is the key
Lets get behind the team - come on Redmen  :scarf

Offline diggers suit

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2005, 07:49:11 pm »
a good article Paul, and basically sums up what I was thinking after yesterday.  in a weird way, trying to explain to my girlfriend how we lost at Fulham and why that didn't make us a bad team makes you think about it a bit more - you can't talk in tired old football clichés.

my view is that Benitez is trying to make us a team that is not dependent on 'one' player but instead is flexible, and all the players in the squad know how to play the role the team demands when called upon.  However this knowledge does not come overnight.  its also obvious that with players like Crouch and Morientes that Benitez will be looking to exploit space on the wings but we don't have those players yet (Kewell aside whose injury problems are well documented)

so looking at yesterday's game (and I wasn't there so will stand corrected if incorrect) it looked like the team were making chances (as they've done all season) but not putting them away.  another game that we perhaps didn't 'deserve' to lose.  but it will come once the team gets better. 

in a sense Chelsea's dominance may help us - the league is as good as 'lost' already anyway (!!!!).  the pressure is off, for this season at least although improvement on 5th is essential.  come season end, will you still be positive if we attain anything less?

Offline Derzyjudek

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2005, 07:53:52 pm »
to be honest im having real trouble being positive...i just cant see a direction rafa is taking us in...i cant see any improvement....i can see too many average players...i can see some very poor football being played...i think we are as far away from being champions as we have been in recent times...just an honest opinion.
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Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2005, 07:58:36 pm »
Well said that man!

A voice of reason, in a howling wind of criticism.

Offline The Jackal

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2005, 07:59:02 pm »
Some good points there Paul, as I've come to expect from your posts.

I agree that things are gonna take time to gel, and I'm not one of those that is berating the manager for trying to put a system in place that will eventually reap dividends. I also agree that mid-week exertions are having an effect and that therefore rotation is needed - so with this in mind I don't understand why at Fulham, Warnock didn't come in at left back, and Zenden come in for Riise - since Traore and Riise had both played in mid-week. Also why leave Crouch on the bench till the last 15 - isn't this the sort of game that Rafa bought him for? If we were going to play 4-4-2, surely Cisse and Crouch were the option, not Cisse and Moro (who hadn't played a competitive game for a few weeks).

I generally tend not to question Rafa's decisions, but recently there have been one or two that have confused me...

..still trying to remain positive though, and looking forward to Palace on Tuesday, and then the Hammers at the weekend, which I think should be a good game - and a chance to make up ground on Arsenal and Spurs - who play each other, and Man United who've got a tough trip to 'Boro.. just hope we take it.
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Offline greentrees

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2005, 08:01:28 pm »
I have never been a fan of negativity, breeds far too much bad feeling and life is far too short.

Though i have never been a fan of burying my head in the sand and hoping for the best, take it on the chin and face up to your problems I say.

yes the european cup win was amazing and saw me pissed for five nights after and with a smile tatooed to my face but we are in october and in a waht seems a bit of a rut. Yes we are a great team...potenitally. Though potential is good until its time to face the music.

On paper our first 11 (which doesn't exist) is possibly on par with Man U and Arsenal. Not trying to osund like Hanson too much but i agree rafa needs to pick a first 11 now and just bang out those same lads every week. It must be better than what s going on now.

w eare not shite, we are satill regarded as quite a team, but like all of us I want more....sorry.

Paul is quite right to rally the troops and get us feeling positve. No good blaming everyone and making out you have the answers becaue we dont. its the lads in the red shirts who need to stand up and be counted on match day. All we can do is get behind them.

Good luck tuesday lads!!!!!!!!


Offline GingerRed

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2005, 08:01:55 pm »
Any talk of a Liverpool 'crisis' is patent nonsense. But attempting to put a great deal of positive spin on what has been a bad start to the season is only going to last so long. I'm quite confident that we can win trophies under Benitez - we've already won the biggest club competition in Europe - but we'll have to start getting our act together fairly soon.

If we carry on like this for much longer, we're going to be well out of the title race and scrambling for fourth place AGAIN. It isn't good enough. It's why we got rid of Houllier and it will be the reason we get rid of Benitez unless things start changing around.

We've certainly improved on some of our displays from last season, but then improving on absolute dross isn't that difficult. We don't like scoring no matter which striker we play, we're giving the ball away ridiculously and making mistakes at the back. Some players just aren't playing well enough to justify a place in a top division team, and we made little to no progress in the transfer market at the start of the season.

As I say, I think Benitez is a superb manager, but he will be judged on Liverpool's league form, so it has to improve. Otherwise there will come a time when even the most Panglossian of Liverpool spin doctors start to wonder.
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Offline Red Rascal

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2005, 08:05:37 pm »
I think we need inspired players on the field. Reading the game and understanding what tactic to employ when presented with a situation, and getting into a formation to counter the tactic by the position is what the players had been practising day in and day out. Being inspired in every game is not easy to do, especially in Away PL games. Somehow when Liverpool lose games I come away with the feeling that they were not inspired to play in that game or lose heart. I imagine players like Cisse, Carra and Gerrard to be shouting and ranting on the field as players that urge others to be inspired ... I would like to see, even if losing, spirited displays being shown by all the players... And that was shown all along, mind you, in this season in all the games except during the loss to Chelsea in the second half and the second half of the Fulham game recently in patches. My concern is that the team need to believe again!
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Offline GingerRed

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2005, 08:06:46 pm »
another game that we perhaps didn't 'deserve' to lose.  but it will come once the team gets better.

We deserved to lose alright. They made the most of their chances, we didn't. We only really started creating when we actually went for it and REALLY tried to score, but by then it was too late. We probably could have played another hour and half and still not scored anyway.
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Offline Thommo's Beak

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2005, 08:10:10 pm »
I've been gutted all weekend about the football, just can't shake it off and it is so stupid to be that way! Two things have been stuck in my mind though:

1. Is Benitez trying to be too clever in the Premiership with his formation and tactics, aren't the English just very one-dimensional and easy to beat?

2. If you want to some short term wins in the Premiership should we not just adopt a more high tempo kick and rush approach to to it? Save the nice footy for the Euro games.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2005, 08:17:02 pm »
Good point about Crouch and Cissé, rather than Morientes. I felt the same. But maybe Crouch's confidence has been knocked by being jeered and booed by his own fans playing for England.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2005, 12:26:47 am by Rushian »

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2005, 08:30:52 pm »
Any talk of a Liverpool 'crisis' is patent nonsense. But attempting to put a great deal of positive spin on what has been a bad start to the season is only going to last so long. I'm quite confident that we can win trophies under Benitez - we've already won the biggest club competition in Europe - but we'll have to start getting our act together fairly soon.

If we carry on like this for much longer, we're going to be well out of the title race and scrambling for fourth place AGAIN. It isn't good enough. It's why we got rid of Houllier and it will be the reason we get rid of Benitez unless things start changing around.


1) I'm not spinning it, just opting to not panic. Did Rafa panic at half-time in Istanbul? No, he replaced an injured full-back with Didi Hamann. He didn't bring on three forwards and play 2-2-6. All I am saying is 'all is not lost'. When all *is* lost, we can talk again.

2) Out of the title race? Remind me, when we supposed to be in it? ;)

Scrambling for 4th? Not ideal, I grant you. But Houllier was sacked after six seasons; if Rafa scrambles for 4th this season, I seriously don't expect us to be doing the same next season. If he is, then there are problems, and his job would be on the line.

But give him time to build something that either succeeds or fails; don't cut him off before he has the chance to get things working. No one can guarantee success at Liverpool, especially competing with Chelsea's mega-wads. Either we build a long-term strategy, or we become a Mickey Mouse hire-em-fire-em club like Newcastle or Aston Villa. Short-term strategies don't work in football, so for all Houllier's 5-year plans, a 5-year plan in the right hands makes sense.

Offline Johnnyboy1973

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2005, 08:33:24 pm »
Yeah, interesting read. Rosey and all that, expected nothing less.

True, there is no great panic yet just as there is nothing to be excited about. Middle ground where it could go either way.

But, at present, it does not look that great. See nothing to suggest from the players or the manager that we will turn things around. Still the same abject displays that we witnessed last season. Still players not in their natural positions which clearly limits our options.

Simple for me, he needs new blood and he needs it fast. Unfortunately, they will need to gel fast. Unfair it maybe, but that is what happens when you joing a team that has been woeful in the league for eighteen months.

The likes of Josemi amongst quite a few others just wont cut the mustard.

We may well get fourth but it will be a struggle and a long one at that.

As you say though, nothing to panic about but on the other hand nothing to feel good about.
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Offline GingerRed

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2005, 08:51:31 pm »
Paul,

"All I am saying is 'all is not lost'. When all *is* lost, we can talk again."

Fair enough, it isn't lost yet...but it will be soon if we carry on getting dodgy results.

"Out of the title race? Remind me, when we supposed to be in it?"

Very true, there was no chance of that this season.

Agree with the rest of your points.
Da Dang

Offline gramck24

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2005, 09:09:23 pm »
Paul, i read an interesting point in another thread a week or two ago which i thought was very interesting take on things... if we would not have had that fantastic European season and won the Champions League we would be in a position where Rafa in his first season finished 5th and and this season being in 13th with only 10 points from 8 games. Would the fans be happy if this was the case???

Now whilst I'm nowhere near suggesting we should do away with Rafa, those domestic statistics do not make pretty reading. Yes you can put other arguments into the equation like injuries last season or how we would have faired in the Prem. without playing CL etc. but i believe that it is now we should start to be seeing some improvement domestically.

Whilst we are going through an inconsistent patch in the league (in fact we have been inconsistent in the league for too long), i believe we should be playing to our strengths. That to me is picking the strongest starting 11 as possible... that includes picking a formation that suits the players rather than getting the players to suit a particular formation. For me, all this tinkering and rotation adds to the inconsistency factor.

Whilst I'm under no illusion that we would go on to win the Prem. this season, i thought we would be fairing better. Yes, we can point to the fact that in some games that we have already played so far we have had better results than last season but i am not happy at looking at the league table and seeing the likes of Charlton and Wigan 9 points clear of us at this early stage. I know we have still yet to play the likes of these teams but simple statistics like Charlton winning there last 5 away games on the bounce makes me think... 'Christ, we have got the players to be doing the same if not better'.

I'm just of the opinion that too much rotation/tinkering coupled with our poor exploits in the summer transfer market will leave us even further apart from Chelsea come May.

I seriously hope I'm wrong.  :-\

Offline MR

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2005, 09:10:54 pm »
But give him time to build something that either succeeds or fails; don't cut him off before he has the chance to get things working. No one can guarantee success at Liverpool, especially competing with Chelsea's mega-wads. Either we build a long-term strategy, or we become a Mickey Mouse hire-em-fire-em club like Newcastle or Aston Villa. Short-term strategies don't work in football, so for all Houllier's 5-year plans, a 5-year plan in the right hands makes sense.

Totally agree Rafa's job ought not to be on the line - isn't on the line. His record prior to arriving, let alone the triumph of Istanbul, means he deserves a fair crack.

But, it is really hard to see what he's trying to achieve. Myself, I read in an article on this group that Rafa said something like; "sort the defence first, as it's easy, and then the attack". So I take it he's plugged the holes and is training like crazy on the front. It gives me some hope, even if I can't see for the life of me what he's trying to achieve out there. It just looks *random*.

Offline Redzson

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2005, 09:19:58 pm »
>:(Fair point as usual Paul but I'm sorry after watching Liverpool against Anderlecht I was already worried and the Fulham game just confirmed what i think. I live in France so only get to see the reds in Europe or in cup competitions such as the Carling on Tuesday ( God forbid I'm not looking forward to that one..a second "Burnley"?? From what I've seen this season...and I am an e-season fan so get to see the "highlights"...or as I would say the "LOWLIGHTS" of our premiership games..I would say that our players should take a look at "lower" teams and find an example of work ethic !! Apart from a few individuals we are too fragile and not "hungry" enough. I actually think that last year's success was a bad thing in terms of papering over the so obvious cracks in LFC..just look at Porto or Monaco since their final...both on the down...maybe a bit more faith in our youngsters... but what makes me really worried is that these are the same arguments and worries as this time last year...how patient do we have to be?? I'm sorry but even the "partial" 10/15 minutes on LFC TV are really not convincing...it's like watching Watford!! Take a look at Lyon for example even with GH at the helm they are good to watch. I suppose what disappoints me so much this season is that apart fro Chelsea the field is wide open & as usual we are not there to profit ...GRRR! This is not a kneejerk reaction as I've pretty well decided that this season is a lost cause...even when we win we're changing underpants at half-time cos the other team look dangerous EVERY time they attack !! This is my first post so excuse me if it's pessimistic but I don't have the solutions & neither does Rafa !!

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2005, 09:29:59 pm »
Some wise words there Paul. I’ve got no doubt that a man of Raffa’s pedigree will succeed eventually. He will keep adding the pieces of the jigsaw and changing others around. However I do wonder how a team of players can consistently perform in Europe only to stutter several days later when playing lesser opposition. As you quite rightly say last season was no fluke, you don’t fluke your way to a European Cup. There is the fatigue factor but to be honest the squad we have is more than capable of beating most teams in the Prem. Complacency is an issue, as is commitment but fundamentally there is still something basic missing when we take the field for a league game. And before people chirp up its not 4-5-1.

I can’t put my finger on it but I have the feeling it’s the British mentality, the grit and determination that drives players on. Steven Gerrard and Carra possess it but after that we struggle. Sami and Xabi come close when on form but the “roll yer sleeves up” mentality is missing throughout the squad. The work ethic is the backbone of English teams; its how they cover up for a lack of technique. It is also deeply ingrained from a young age; just go to watch any under 10’s game up and down the country on a Sunday morning.

On the continent lacklustre is acceptable so long as the “bells and whistles” are attached (cue Luis Garcia) so a bad day at the office when things go wrong is the norm from time to time. Basically though European teams play in Europe as we do mid week then return to the same style of football. Unfortunately we end up facing a team of snarling bulls with a snarling manager (Pearce, Allardyce) on the sidelines. At times I’m sure the players are kept in a darkened room without food several days before the match. That’s what our squad fail to match the ‘stop the opposition winning by any means necessary and then nick one with a set piece’ approach. We line up expecting the opposition to play by the Queensbury rules only to bit hit with rabbit punches. It takes us at last 45 minutes to come to terms with it but usually by then there’s an eleven man Roman garrison across the opposition 18-yard box. Suckered again.

I believe this is Rafa’s Achilles heel at the moment, I also think he knows it but the dilemma is to change our approach and playing staff and suffer in Europe, or find a way to get the first punch in on a consistent basis.

Hope he solves the riddle soon.
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Offline Hugh

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2005, 09:39:46 pm »
Fuck yous all, I'm joining Tomkins and sticking my head down in the sand.

 :)

Offline LFCMunkee

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2005, 09:49:02 pm »
Fuck yous all, I'm joining Tomkins and sticking my head down in the sand.

 :)

Me behind you's too :)
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Offline thewing

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2005, 09:53:57 pm »

So while I'm not exactly happy with the way the season is unfolding, I will remain positive, and patient. I see no alternative.

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That's exactly the way I feel, might as well stop watching now than thrown in the towel.

I think what I have to do as a fan of this mighty club, is accept we're not so mighty anymore when it comes to the league, that coupled with our own form and misfiring in the transfer market  and Chelsea's dominance, it could be another 15 years before we see the league come back to Anfield.I have to concentrate on being a supporter, rather than criticising when they don't meet my expectations.It's sad, but that's how I feel now.I'm postive, but depressed.
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Offline skeebo

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2005, 10:11:05 pm »
Great post! Totally agree!

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2005, 10:12:52 pm »
Fuck yous all, I'm joining Tomkins and sticking my head down in the sand.

 :)


I trust you're being ironic, my friend  :)

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2005, 10:24:59 pm »
Paul, i read an interesting point in another thread a week or two ago which i thought was very interesting take on things... if we would not have had that fantastic European season and won the Champions League we would be in a position where Rafa in his first season finished 5th and and this season being in 13th with only 10 points from 8 games. Would the fans be happy if this was the case???


Sorry, G, but that's a bit like saying "if Ian Rush hadn't scored those 346 goals for Liverpool he'd have been rubbish".

i.e. you can't remove someone's achievements when assessing them, and concentrate only on their failures. Rafa's had one year and a few months in charge, and won the European Cup! Read that again. And again.

Now sure, domestically it's a worry. It's patchy, and yes, it appears something is missing.

But at least we're doing well in Europe; it could be a lot worse. For years the Mancs and Arsenal were obsessed with doing well in Europe, and now we're back doing just that. It shouldn't wipe away the domestic failure, but at the same time, you can't remove/overlook Rafa's European record with us either.

That also tells us that whatever is missing, it can't be that bad if we can continue to win games in Europe's top competition: mediocre sides do not do that. There's a lot that's right with our team, from a clutch of players, to the manager's nous. But there's something not quite right about the balance, and the repeating games in quick succession, that needs addressing.

There's no magic wand for these things, and if it takes time, it takes time.


Offline Lanrmort

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2005, 10:38:14 pm »
Well I'm down in the dumps whatever the reasons for our poor start to the season.
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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2005, 10:41:51 pm »
Agree to the idea that we do need a bit of patience, and there is still room for positive opinion regarding how we are dojng this season. After all,we are continuing our fine CL form at any rate

However. I do think now in the league campaign at least, the club is beginning to run out of excuses, and the patience of many with our schizophrenic league form is wearing thin. This in my view is down to two fundamental reasons. The first is that although Chelsea have a seemingly impregnable stranglehold of the title, 2nd and 3rd at the beginning of the season were up for grabs. Man U have been in a downward spiral of sorts for a while now and had been subjected to an unsettling takeover, with an ageing group of core players, and Wenger at Arsenal made the colossal mistake of selling Patrick Vieira, and the continuing sagas concerning Ashley Cole and Thierry Henry have proved detrimental to team spirit and performance. After Istanbul, this was our chance to capitalise on our increased standing in the English game...

Which brings me on to point 2. Our activities in the summer. Why, for God's sake did we not concentrate on bringing in the CB and RW that we have needed for the last 2 YEARS at least? We should have focused on a target and seized the initiative. Instead, we ended up signing players we didnt really need, and let the days tick by until it was far too late to do anything about it. We may as well have written off this season before it had started because it was painfully obvious we did not have a good enough squad to gain consistent results over a long league campaign. To shoot ourselves in the foot like this just smacked of amateurishness, and confirmed in mine and many others eyes that our problems have been to a large degree self inflicted

That is why there is so much frustration going round I feel. The time was now and I fear we may have missed the boat :butt
« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 10:50:42 pm by Rizla »

Offline Fanxxxxtastic

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2005, 10:49:05 pm »

2) Out of the title race? Remind me, when we supposed to be in it? ;)

Scrambling for 4th? Not ideal, I grant you. But Houllier was sacked after six seasons; if Rafa scrambles for 4th this season, I seriously don't expect us to be doing the same next season. If he is, then there are problems, and his job would be on the line.

But give him time to build something that either succeeds or fails; don't cut him off before he has the chance to get things working. No one can guarantee success at Liverpool, especially competing with Chelsea's mega-wads. Either we build a long-term strategy, or we become a Mickey Mouse hire-em-fire-em club like Newcastle or Aston Villa. Short-term strategies don't work in football, so for all Houllier's 5-year plans, a 5-year plan in the right hands makes sense.

Just to get within sniffing distance of Chelsea would take a major miracle, as much as I hate to admit it.

God forbid that we go down the "hire-em-fire-em" route.  It just smacks at a lack of class from boards and supporters.  I'd hate it for us to end up on a managerial merry-go-round.  Not that I ever see that happening.  Parry and Moores aren't prone to panicing.

Even though I was quite sad to see GH go, I knew that it was time for a change.  We'd become stale.  Players just weren't responding, and new blood at the helm was a must.  Like yourself Paul, I'm an optimist.  I'm convinced that Rafa will get us sorted in one way or another, sooner, rather than later.

After a bizarre first season that saw him blighted with injuries, it didn't really give him time to fairly assess most of the players within his squad.  We've seen some shipped out permanently.  Others placed on loan, for whatever reasons.  Whether it's to seek permanent moves, or just as a wake up call, only time will tell.  Rafa's still trying to assemble what will essentially prove to be his team, and he has to be granted the time to do that.  So many on here have had a good moan off about particular players.  Saying that they're not good enough to be in the team.  What on earth do they expect?  It's not like we can just ship them out over night.  These things do take a bit of time and resourcing.  We're not Chelsea, where we can afford to purchase a player for mega money, only for him to prove ineffective in his first season, then ship him out on loan abroad, while we get another mega money player in as an instant replacement.  We are trying to run things in a prudent manner.  I wouldn't expect anything less from our board.

Things aren't running great for us at the mo in the league, even though we've seen improvements from last seasons comparative fixtures, but I'm a firm believer that we will see us crawl out of this current lull.

Oh, and I'm joining the Tomkins head in sand bandwagon too :)
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Offline Hugh

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2005, 11:21:02 pm »

I trust you're being ironic, my friend  :)

Of course. :)

Offline Red Rascal

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2005, 12:37:58 am »
Why are people starting to panic? It is just the problem of finishing scoring attempts right? So, the problem is with the strikers, then... or is it deeper than that?
Well, if it's deeper than that, the problem would be with the players not wanting to follow Rafa's system, then.
I think it is fair to say that we lost to Fulham because we just were unlucky and just accept that then...I mean it's just a couple of bumps with Chelsea and Fulham on our road to getting there, isn't it?
I just cannot understand the talk of 'Rafa should resign'... It's really unbelievable how people criticise through their arses...
Keep on writing Paul, we need your positive views!
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Offline MightyReds

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2005, 02:02:05 am »
Paul, good old paul, the always positive guy in this forum.

The first article i look upon after a bad result.
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Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2005, 08:30:53 am »
Always nice to read something positive after a defeat.
Very reminiscent of reading Houllier's comments a couple of years back.
Possession was better than Fulham.
We had more shots on goal than Fulham.
We had more corners than Fulham.
Looking forward now, to reading how we totally outplayed Palace.
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Offline AndyM1957

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2005, 08:56:55 am »
Does our reluctance to spend the extra £2m (or so we are led to believe) to sign Kuyt comimg back to haunt us?

Like Wooltonian I miss walking down the hill after another 0-0 or lucky 1-0 all moaning away, safe in the knowledge that very soon Houllier would put us right on our total lack of football knowledge by telling us, yet again, how we were an attacking team and how exciting we were to watch.



Offline woof

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2005, 10:09:28 am »
We fans and supporters are a fickle bunch. If, at the end of the season, we finish behind the champions (yeah, naming Chelsea as the champs would be premature; the whole team could just vanish mysteriously!) all this talk would be forgotten. What do you expect? That we win week in week out and slam 4-5 goals past inferior "lesser" teams?

Chelsea has certainly set the benchmark but it's something no other team may be able to achieve without the financial backing of someone like Roman. Yes, our start to the season has been poor and erratic but I believe the Fulham game is a hiccup every good team goes through.

I consider our beloved Reds as a good team but we are far from the finished article. With the exception of Chelsea, we are seeing a shift in power in EPL. The lesser teams of yesteryears have been improving steadily and we can see even big successful teams like Man U and Arsenal are waning in their power.

Where do we go from here? EPL is a competition. That's right, a competition. That means there are time you win and there are times you lose. I've had the opportunity to watch Liverpool dominate in the 80's and then shooting blanks in the barren 90's period. I thank Houllier for giving us the reason to rejoice again after the Treble season and Rafa for guiding us to win the 5th CL. Let's put things into perspective, guys.

Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2005, 10:52:24 am »
Always nice to read something positive after a defeat.
Very reminiscent of reading Houllier's comments a couple of years back.
Possession was better than Fulham.
We had more shots on goal than Fulham.
We had more corners than Fulham.
Looking forward now, to reading how we totally outplayed Palace.

heh heh :)
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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2005, 10:55:41 am »
Hate to sound dispondent but i can already see it now, listening to the drone of the commentators on how much of an upset this will be as Palace score again against a mixture of young reserves and seniors who arnt cutting it.

We can say all we like till the cows come home over benitez but if the players dont have the will or heart for these games and seriously that along with rotation is where the problem lies and until we get in players that are up for a cold october night battle at Selhurst Park we are not going to improve.
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Offline Rael

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2005, 11:03:31 am »
Well I'm down in the dumps whatever the reasons for our poor start to the season.

Dont worry, if it didn't hurt mate, you wouldn't be a fan.
We just have to grit our teeth and wait til we turn the corner
Christ, I'm beginning to sound like Ged now.

Hate to sound dispondent but i can already see it now, listening to the drone of the commentators on how much of an upset this will be as Palace score again against a mixture of young reserves and seniors who arnt cutting it.

We can say all we like till the cows come home over benitez but if the players dont have the will or heart for these games and seriously that along with rotation is where the problem lies and until we get in players that are up for a cold october night battle at Selhurst Park we are not going to improve.

Dont worry mate, Rafa will not make the same mistakes in Cups this year, it might be our only route into Europe, where he excells.
Because of the league situation (ie bought) I've had a 3 way patent bet, backing us in all cups.
We'll win at least one no matter what other people think
« Last Edit: October 24, 2005, 12:01:15 pm by Rael »
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Offline AndyM1957

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Re: Exercising My Right to Remain Positive
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2005, 01:15:42 pm »
Agree with some of the comments.

Like some of you I was lucky enough to be brought up in our football mad city (although my dad is a blue nose) and am old enough to have lived through the 'Shanks'era.

My memories of that time and the great man will never be forgotten and will be treasured forever.

However, one of the great things about our club in the glory days was a desire to never accept second best.

Paisley might have seemed like everyone's favourite uncle/grandad but as soon as he thought players were past their best or had lost the desire off they went, whoever they were.

I still get the same buzz as I did on my first visit in 1967.

This club owes me nothing for all the happiness and glory it has given me BUT that doesn't mean I am prepared to accept second best.

I want a team to be competing with the best now although I realise it will take time. We have some very good players at the club and a few exceptional ones.

However, there are clearly more than a few players who are simply not good enough and never will be in terms of ability and/or desire.

Rafa is clearly thinking long-term with some of the younger players he has bought and that is good.

But if we simply sit back and think 'hey we're European Champions, of course we'll finish in the top 4' and start accepting second/third-rate players (because thats what some of them are) and 'our time will come again' then we're heading for a fall!

This is not meant to be doom and gloom because there are causes for optimism.

Luckily we have a manager who I hope will not accept anything but the best, but we shall see.

Keep the faith!

P.S. Rafa buy a natural goal scorer.