Topic: The "Liverpool will crack under the pressure" fallacy?

[Caligula?]

I think the Rafa's rant costing us is also a fallacy that was disproven a while back. We lost one game after his rant, and that was almost 2 whole months after said "rant". I think we missed out that season by too many sloppy draws, both before and after the rant. I also think it's a fallacy that we cracked under the pressure in the 08/09 season. Sloppy draws, and the Macheda goal were bigger issues.

I suppose it's a bit of both really. We had some sloppy draws even before the second half of the season (the 0-0 with Fulham where Lucas was booed springs to mind), but I also think the pressure and Ferguson's mind games got to us after that. We dropped 13 points in the Premier League after the turn of the new year, Manchester United dropped 11. I think we finished with a 4 point difference so that alone can't account for the difference, which is why I think it has to do with both the sloppy draws earlier in the season and a bit of pressure which caused us to drop further points once we found ourselves top after new year.

Errrr  No.  He didn't.  He calmly pointed out some actual facts.  And we finished with our highest ever points total in the PL that season, hardly what you might call faltering...  We were just undone by an astonishing run from Man U.

The "fragility" we exhibited was the following season, when everyone expected us to kick on from that, and got off to a dreadful start, having lost Xabi Alonso, and the rest is a shamefully dark memory of fans calling for Rafa's head... and getting their reward with Hodgson...

But anyway, I do agree that we don't look like cracking under pressure at the moment, and Rodger's presser this afternoon was fantastic listening for the players I'm sure, in the way he kept stressing how he just wants them to go out and play with freedom for the collective.  Doesn't look to me as if he's feeling it!

Err, yes he did. When you say they had an astonishing run, do you mean towards the end of the season? Because that wasn't the case, and as I mentioned above, they dropped more points than us in the second half of that season. We finished stronger, but the points lost earlier is what won them the title. We drew three games in a row after that "facts" press conference, which had the opposite effect of what it was intended to have.

[Istanbulievable]

Fan mentality takes a toll too, players feed off of it - especially at home, so here's hoping for a cauldron of noise from here on out.

Exactly this.  The supporters could be both our biggest strength and biggest weakness for the remaining home games.  The players could easily feed off a positive or negative atmosphere.

[JovaJova]

If Chelsea and City manage to deny us at Anfield then fair play to them. They will deserve it having performed home and away against us this season.

It will have bugger all to do with the pressure getting to us though, just a slight edge held by a better team. These lines are just casually and repeatedly trotted out by rival fans because they are an easy way to display the usual negative attitude a fan would show towards a rival team. Look at Cantona's often quoted post as a perfect example. Often fans only see what they want to see, what is happening in reality often bears little consequence to the repeated opinion.

So in short, let them blabber on about our defence, about Suarez possibly going in the summer, about us cracking etc, it all matters not one bit as we enter the final stretch with one of the best Liverpool sides we have seen for many a year.

[mike777]

The pressure line is an easy one used by the media because for most of the last 20 years we haven't been a threat in terms of winning the title so we have been patronised a bit.  Hopefully it's now going back to what it should be that we are feared and hated. 

I don't really buy this Liverpool are everyone's 2nd team thing at all.  Think most want us to fail, are scared we are now getting back to what we once were and are only going to improve, and they see this as the way to try and wind us up.  Not a chance it will work, whether or not we win the league this year we aren't going away under Rodgers and with the young talent we have.

[Resurrected]

The pressure line is an easy one used by the media because for most of the last 20 years we haven't been a threat in terms of winning the title so we have been patronised a bit.  Hopefully it's now going back to what it should be that we are feared and hated. 

I don't really buy this Liverpool are everyone's 2nd team thing at all.  Think most want us to fail, are scared we are now getting back to what we once were and are only going to improve, and they see this as the way to try and wind us up.  Not a chance it will work, whether or not we win the league this year we aren't going away under Rodgers and with the young talent we have.

Gotta disagree mate.

We were never hated. We were respected because we were a great team that played proper football. We never had detestable managers like Utd and Chelsea, and we didn't play anti football like the blues do. We're more like the modern day Arsenal. There's plenty of people out there who would rather see a club like ours win it the right way than a club that has a huge pot of money and buys it.

[na fir dearg]

No pressure on us whatsoever. No-one expected us to be up there, so this season is a massive bonus for us, and the title would be an amazing extra on top of what we've achieved.

Where is the pressure? Fuck all pressure on us I think. And I'm sure Rodgers is telling them 'look, if we do it we do it, just go out and enjoy yourselves'.

Your right, there hasnt been any huge pressure for the reasons you say - everyone was looking at Chelsea, City and Arsenal. But all of a sudden we are right there in the middle of them

The pressure will come, dont worry about that - we saw the first bits of it the other night, but the team got through it. lets hope they can deal it with as we come to the end - i believe they can because i believe Rodgers can deal with it and transmit this to the players
Also you couldnt ask for a better player than Gerrard for pressure situations

[Hunts Cross]

I love the OP's passion but the unvarnished truth is in this 3 horse race, the other two have won it recently and we have not. The bottle accusation would be levied at any team in our position. It is up to us to prove we can, not withstanding that it is not in our hands unless City drop point in addition to losing at Anfield.

[The North Bank]

If liverpool dont win the title, it'll be down to a thinner squad and a weaker defence than the other 2 title rivals. Nothing to do with bottle, people who are not capable of forming a proper football opinion throw the word "bottle" around. Had liverpool finished 10th then maybe their bottle would be in question but for a team that has already exceeded its pre season targets, its just ridiculous to say missing out on the title would be bottling it, especially when they're up against 2 squads that cost hundreds of millions more.

[Wingman]

Humm...this thread is about the myth of Liverpool cracking under pressure.

There are a lot of myths out there, for example the ol' one about United in the second half of the season...blagh, blagh, blagh.

That's a myth...and if you look at the actual figures you'll see for yourself.

Another myth...our defence is something of a weakness...not exactly true.

If you divide this season into three chunks [games 1 - 10, 11 - 20 & 21 - 31] our record looks like this:

1 - 10     17GF & 10GA
11 -20    29GF & 13GA
21 - 31   38GF & 16GA

In that mid section of the season we improved our GF by 170% and our GA increased by only 130%
In that third section of the season we improved our GF by 131% and our GA increased by just under 107%

We've played 10 games without conceding, 9 games only conceding 1 goal and 7 games only conceding 2 goals.

Admittedly, we've conceded 3 goals 5 times [Everton G12, Hull G13, Stoke G21, Swansea G27 & Cardiff G30] but we won 3 of those 5 games, only losing 1 of them.

My favourite myth is that stats make posts more meaningful.

There's 7 games to go, the previous 31 mean the square root of fuck all now.

[PhaseOfPlay]

My favourite myth is that stats make posts more meaningful.

There's 7 games to go, the previous 31 mean the square root of fuck all now.

Except for the points they gave us, surely. Which give the remaining 7 games added meaning.

[Passmaster Molby]

I think the Rafa's rant costing us is also a fallacy that was disproven a while back. We lost one game after his rant, and that was almost 2 whole months after said "rant". I think we missed out that season by too many sloppy draws, both before and after the rant. I also think it's a fallacy that we cracked under the pressure in the 08/09 season. Sloppy draws, and the Macheda goal were bigger issues.

29th December 2008 - Our Captain Steven Gerrard was arrested and faced the possibility of 5 years in prison for assault.

8th January 2009 - Our manager calmly reels of a list of "facts" about our direct rivals and their manager in the title race.

Press go mental and claim Rafa's cracked up with a "fact rant" about the opposition whilst the Gerrard being arrested story melts into the background.

Good managers will do all they can to take the pressure off their players, even if it means they themselves are put in the firing line.

[cookie-monster]

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/spurs-boss-tim-sherwood-questions-liverpools-mettle-for-the-title-run-in-video/

It would be so nice if we could have  a 5-1 to the home team on sunday wouldn't it

[MerseyMania]

We had many nerve wrecking moments in the last 5-6 years. None more than those draws of that fantastic season where we beat United and Chelsea home and away. Then these closes brushes to top four finish only fall really behind. After coming thru all that and after coming this close to the title, I think we will kick the concept of pressure out of the window. We go there play confident football and scare the shite out of opponents. When it comes to historical significance, the experience of Chelsea and City doesnt even stand firm as Liverpool FC is now at a very interesting milestone in the pursuit of their Destiny.

I believe this will be one of the greatest title wins ever in the Premiere league or the before era.

[johnny74]

One of the three teams in the title race is using a sports psychiatrist that helped win a whole bunch of GB Olympic medals. People don't seem to talk about this enough but Steve Peters is surely behind the form of many of our squad this season.

Mental strength will be far more of an issue for the others if they don't have a decent "shrink on board".

[Mr_Shane]

We were 5th at one stage in the season. A few wins behind Arsenal in first place. Chelsea were also a few points ahead of us. The fact that we have overtaken Arsenal and have pegged away at Chelsea to reduce the gap to 1 point, is actually quite impressive bearing in mind that Chelsea are one of the more consistent teams in the league.

It does not look like the team is cracking.... although it looks like the fans are

[CHOPPER]

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

And on come this season. Maybe we had to let go of our history. Maybe it was time to put our glorious past behind and give the reigns to a new manager. Someone who had no real connection to our glorious history. Someone who saw the club from outside. Unlike people like Kenny and Rafa who were as hurt as we were that we hadn't won the title for so long. Maybe the club did not have a place for sentiments anymore. Maybe it was about going back to the drawing board and restart.

This. I've been saying as much since Rafa was sacked, while watching us attempt quick fixes, both in managerial appointments and player signings. A fresh start was definitely needed, it began with FSG buying the club, who thankfully had the vision, understanding and nerve to do so.

[the_red_pill]

The pressure line is an easy one used by the media because for most of the last 20 years we haven't been a threat in terms of winning the title so we have been patronised a bit.  Hopefully it's now going back to what it should be that we are feared and hated. 

I don't really buy this Liverpool are everyone's 2nd team thing at all.  Think most want us to fail, are scared we are now getting back to what we once were and are only going to improve, and they see this as the way to try and wind us up.  Not a chance it will work, whether or not we win the league this year we aren't going away under Rodgers and with the young talent we have.

I certainly don't pick up on a vibe of people being against us winning the league. From what I've seen, we're basically the darlings at the moment, mainly because of our "Britishness". That though- is media-driven, which in itself, would've been hard to imagine before this season. Supporters of the bigger clubs have possibly a more militant view, since there have been exciting teams this season and the top-six were competitive for a "long time". The league's been exciting ans ince everyone is talking about everyone else, it may seem that our remarkable season are being neglected. "Smaller" teams don't really care, since what's happening over here has got nothing to do with them- they're in their own pain. They could care less who wins the league.

Yes- some people question our mentality(not to the extent the OP suggests), but that's normal when you look at the teams we competing with. They are expensively assembled and basically hand-picked, which gives the illusion sometimes of something being "superior". Chelsea are not superior to us- but in one aspect- squad-size(maybe a few individuals who are superior to our's).

City may just have a little bit more to us than Chelsea has- apart from squadsize- this includes individual quality.


Nevertheless, it comes down to the mentality of the team- not one or two individuals- at this juncture and in that respect- none of those 2 teams are superior to us- THIS SEASON.


If we win the league this season- this league, the players, the media, the pundits, the fans will fawn over this season for ages and just like "The Invincibles"- we'll be the standard. Teams would be compared to us. United and the like would be slaughtered because a big team should be able to jump from 7th in one season to winning the league. That great Liverpool side of "2013/14" did it!

For now though- we've got work to do.

[Keita Success]

If we lose the title fine. Whatever. None of us expected us to win. The only thing that would be a real bottle is top 4. Hopefully, that won't happen.

Only think I disagree with in your post was that we can't rely on Sakho. I think he's brilliant. Kompwny-esque in his front foot defending. Highest tackle success in the league of defenders who played more than ten games.

[wemmick]

Supporters of other clubs and some journalists have been saying BR and players will "crack under pressure" for the last seven games. (After which they have pointed out how we don't play in Europe when we win.) I suppose if they say it enough, they can then point it out when we happen to drop points. Even if we drop points at the weekend, I still don't think it should be considered "cracking under pressure." Dropping points after seven wins in a row is not cracking. It's bloody hard to win game after game after game at this level. I would Arsenal, Spurs and United have cracked under pressure this season.

[the_red_pill]

If we lose the title fine. Whatever. None of us expected us to win. The only thing that would be a real bottle is top 4. Hopefully, that won't happen.

Only think I disagree with in your post was that we can't rely on Sakho. I think he's brilliant. Kompwny-esque in his front foot defending. Highest tackle success in the league of defenders who played more than ten games.

Loved him since his first game for us. He's got bottle that lad! I dunno, but somehow he reminds me of a mini-Yaya in mentality and in his willingness to take the ball and waltz out of defense, looking for a willing runner to setup.

[XabiAlonsosBeard]

Yes- some people question our mentality(not to the extent the OP suggests)

My original post doesn't really touch on the extent to which our mentality is questioned. It is rife on places like Red Cafe, and on Facebook pages etc. So rival fans are asking questions about our mentality. And the original post does clearly state that it's recently STARTED in the press, so I've not said it's being questioned by all and sundry. But by watching Sky Sports News today, it would be naive to not acknowledge that the mentality of our squad is an area which the press, and now other managers, are starting to focus on and question.

[El Ninos Black Eye]

If we crack, we crack. But if we do, it will make us mentally even stronger next year and if we don't win it this year we will next. Remember United when 'they lost the league on Merseyside', although great for us at the time, the thought of that was what probably drove them on to win it the year after.
Sometimes you need to fail in order to succeed. 


All I'm hearing of Evertonians is 'if they don't win it this year, they never will' Why is that? Is it because we'll be in the Champions League next season. Well I see that as bonus, it will help us bring better quality players and the squad to deal will both competitions.  Could also say the same for them, if they get Europa how will affect their league form. As that won't help invest that much in their squad, plus all the loan players they will lose.
Then there is the Man Utd argument, that they'll be back next year. Really? Will they. Look how it affected us missing out. Whoever is their manager next year has got one well of a rebuilding project, which won't be fixed in a season.
Then there is the other favourite of 'take Gerrard, Suarez and Sturrdige out the team and there fuck all'. Wouldn't go as far as fuck all but take Messi, Xavi and Iniesta out of Barca. Take Toure, Aguerro and Kompany out of City. Take the back bone out of any team and see how well they do.
So all the rest can keep on praying and playing with their Voodoo dolls. They can celebrate as much as they want if we crack, but be warned enjoy why you can. Because we are coming up that hill, and if we don't reach the top this year, we will next.

[AM76]

This. I've been saying as much since Rafa was sacked, while watching us attempt quick fixes, both in managerial appointments and player signings. A fresh start was definitely needed, it began with FSG buying the club, who thankfully had the vision, understanding and nerve to do so.

Agree mate. We've needed a sweep thru for years now. What worked in the 70's doesn't work anymore and all this Liverpool way bollocks needed to be washed away. Look at what a fresh start has done for us now. 

[the_red_pill]

I don't believe this team has a weak mentality. This is what Driscoll had to say(28th Februaury) about our performance, which obviously goes hand-in-hand with mentality:

We have a manager who inspires and demands more from his players than any other manager I've seen," Driscoll told Liverpoolfc.com.

"Tactically, he demands both a relentless, high energy press, but also an electric transition and counter-attack. Most teams do one or the other."

Much has been made of the effectiveness of the pressing game Rodgers has ordered his players to carry out this season.

Teams have found it hard to operate under intense scrutiny from Liverpool's players, as the likes of Tottenham Hotspur, Everton and Arsenal learned in matches that were wholly one-sided in the Reds' favour.


Driscoll revealed how the nature of training under Rodgers means he expects the team to continue to improve physically as the season reaches its critical stages.

"The application of each player to fulfil their high energy and dynamic roles further improves their fitness and ability to achieve these physical peaks every game," explained Driscoll.

"It has this cascade affect that Brendan Rodgers' teams seem to have. They get better and better as the season progresses.

"It starts with the mentality to comply with these demands, which in turn physically conditions the players to further excel. This bodes well for the run-in. We are in great condition."

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/156041-no-one-demands-as-much-as-brendan

[XabiAlonsosBeard]

Merson's piped up now. Claiming that the nature of our win against Sunderland is the first sign of cracks in our title challenge.

That sums up the point of my OP, perfectly. A battling win is signs of pressure/cracks/whatever, but Chelsea losing to villa, with their players losing their heads and getting sent off, and Mourinho storming the pitch gets no great attention from a pressure/cracks showing angle.

[the_red_pill]

Merson's piped up now. Claiming that the nature of our win against Sunderland is the first sign of cracks in our title challenge.

That sums up the point of my OP, perfectly. A battling win is signs of pressure/cracks/whatever, but Chelsea losing to villa, with their players losing their heads and getting sent off, and Mourinho storming the pitch gets no great attention from a pressure/cracks showing angle.

Some of the press and other "observers" DID question whether Chelsea and Mourinho were perhaps cracking under the pressure after the antics at Villa to be fair mate. Even one of the in-game pundits on Sky said it.

It's not just us, to be fair. Merson is also not the most balanced individual mate.

[El Ninos Black Eye]

Merson's piped up now. Claiming that the nature of our win against Sunderland is the first sign of cracks in our title challenge.

That sums up the point of my OP, perfectly. A battling win is signs of pressure/cracks/whatever, but Chelsea losing to villa, with their players losing their heads and getting sent off, and Mourinho storming the pitch gets no great attention from a pressure/cracks showing angle.

Merson brain is mashed from all the years of substance abuse.  If Arsenal where in our position and had that win against Sunderland. He would be saying things like 'thats what Champions do, win ugly when not playing well'.

[TSC]

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/spurs-boss-tim-sherwood-questions-liverpools-mettle-for-the-title-run-in-video/

It would be so nice if we could have  a 5-1 to the home team on sunday wouldn't it

Cock.  Another 5-0 would be just the ticket to send this pretender back to his temporary bunker at the Lane

[JonnyCigarettes®]

I want Dr Steve Peters on double shifts, seven days a week, until the end of the season.

I want him to be there when Henderson is brushing his teeth, I want him to be there when Coutinho is playing Fifa 14 and I want him to be there when Sterling wakes up in the morning.

And if Dr Steve Peters happens to get accidentally impregnated by Raheem in the process, but we win the league, then so be it.

[Wingman]

Except for the points they gave us, surely. Which give the remaining 7 games added meaning.

Touché

[Mighty_Red]

Merson's piped up now. Claiming that the nature of our win against Sunderland is the first sign of cracks in our title challenge.

That sums up the point of my OP, perfectly. A battling win is signs of pressure/cracks/whatever, but Chelsea losing to villa, with their players losing their heads and getting sent off, and Mourinho storming the pitch gets no great attention from a pressure/cracks showing angle.

Agreed, but it is a legitimate question that is going to be thrown at us til the end of the season. It is easy for brainless opposition fans, pundits (Merson is too stupid to be brainless btw) and journos to ask this of us simply because we don't have a recent track record of winning. Don't forget that 08/09 was still a failure in terms of not actually winning it when we had the platform of sorts to do it. It doesn't help that no journo will ever call Maureen out on the bollocks he comes out with, and never ask pressing questions about the side so they get away with a lot that us and other clubs like Arsenal or City have to deal with.

One thing I would say, is that Chelsea & City are far, far ahead in terms of experience and overall squad quality at least on paper. We are behind the curve ball in terms of points/games so we have to rely on these two to slip up somewhere.

It's pretty much the same as the "leaky defence" argument. If we do not win this title, it won't be because of one big issue, just a multitude of small issues that derive from the fact we are only 18 months into a long term project.

How do we keep away from the pressure? We just keep enjoying our football and see where this journey takes us. Like the closing months of 08/09 when we unleashed the shackles when it felt we had thrown it all away, we'll just keep winning then look at the other results. We as fans should enjoy each games as it comes rather than worry about what may or may not happen.

[didi shamone]

Pressure is the easy narrative. A simple explanation for us not winning the league. If we don't win it's because we're not quite good enough yet but it will be impossible to disprove the pressure explanation. A bit like the whole mind games bollocks. It's always been dragged out when Maureen or Fergie win, but when they fail to win it's never put down to them slipping up in the mind games arena.
The league will be won by the team who plays the best football over 38 games and that will be us. Or am I playing mind games to ease the pressure? .

[houkura]

Agree mate. We've needed a sweep thru for years now. What worked in the 70's doesn't work anymore and all this Liverpool way bollocks needed to be washed away. Look at what a fresh start has done for us now.

Agree with the post you quote and I agree with some of your sentiment but....the Liverpool Way is anything but bollocks and Rodgers management style has a lot in common with Shankly and Paisley's era. I'm left scratching my head by that statement.

[reds88]

Don't think anyone can predict the reaction under intense pressure.  Of course it helps to experience similar situations but even than it's not a sure thing.  What is certain is the pressure will build up till the title is decided.  Won't be surprised if it goes to the final whistle of the season.

I believe supporters attending their matches can help the team by giving their full support.  Seems like the last 15 minutes of the game against Sunderland the tension and nervousness of the supporters and players were feeding each other.  It's during such times we need to lift the team just like during half time in Istanbul. 

For those attending the remain games please scream, shout and sing a little louder for folks like me who can only watch on telly or online thousands of kms away.  YNWA

[deFacto please, you bastards]

It's really irrelevant what others will be saying and questioning our ability. The key is for us to believe in the players and show the support at Anfield, and give them extra boost as much as we can. They have to keep believing in each other and the manager, and enjoying their football. Focusing on one match at a time like they have and seeing where it takes us. The pressure and expectation on us is far different than it is for City and Chelsea. Who invested shit loads of money into the squad and were expected to challenge before the season started.

We've exceeded all expectations. Whatever happens it's been a really good season after years of disappointment [Kenny's Wembley run in was brilliant, but league wise...]

[XabiAlonsosBeard]

He's cracking up, He's cracking up......he's cracking.......Jose's cracking up! 

[Resurrected]

He's cracking up, He's cracking up......he's cracking.......Jose's cracking up! 

I do believe you're right!

Just seen on youtube, that he had a go at a ball boy at todays game.

[rscanderlech]

I do believe you're right!

Just seen on youtube, that he had a go at a ball boy at todays game.

He was just playing mind games with the ball boy.

[Resurrected]

He was just playing mind games with the ball boy.

Did he win?

Did he heck!