Author Topic: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2  (Read 12180 times)

Offline Corkboy

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Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« on: April 6, 2014, 10:36:24 pm »
That was tight.

Did you doubt us, though? Did you think the delicate stylings of Fat Sam would do for us? Well, folks, in this humble mind the 'Ammers were good value for a point at half time. Playing Diame on the right of midfield made it hard for us in a 4 3 3, they seemed to have a lot of space in the middle and they were tight and organised at the back. We have a guy who can beat that, though. In fact, we have several but only one of them was really humming today and that was the captain. His pass for the Suarez penalty was sumptuous, as was Suarez' touch and flick. The equaliser was, in retrospect, one of the funnier moments of the season, some slapstick vaudeville from Andy Carroll (nice tweet after the game, by the way) ably supported by the comic timing of the ref, and the assistant whose assistance he seemed determined to spurn. Also, instant replay on the home big screen to help him out (as well as their own keeper with Gerrard's last five spot kicks later in the game). West Ham at the cutting edge as always.

Our manager, as he regularly does, spotted the problem and moved quickly to solve it, by bringing off Small Phil for Lucas and asking him to play right side of a diamond, to help out Johnson who had been exposed several times. But we forget how good a player the former Beratted of Barnet is, and how adaptable. He calmed things for us, dictated the space and was responsible for the gorgeous slide ruler which won Flanagan a questionable penalty. If it were given against our keeper, I would have questions, questions that might begin with "what the fuck".

But for as long as Fat Sam hollered at them to chuck it long and get it on the big lad's head, there was always a chance we might have succumbed and in that respect one shot on target for the home side does credit to our defence. We flung ourselves when flinging was needed, and stuck heads in where they might get hurt and clattered and elbowed with the best of them. This is becoming a very admirable team, and when you have weapons like we have, a dangerous one.

So nine wins on the bounce and a first win without Suarez or Sturridge scoring. Also, Gerrard gets out the yellow card gate. I think. This was a very impressive win, the kind of win good teams have when things aren't going entirely their own way. It's still on.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #1 on: April 7, 2014, 12:11:55 am »
I thought it was a very odd game. We were clearly the better side and on the whole I think our back line dealt with the physical presence of Carroll well, but he remained a threat. Our game is so often based on pressing the opponents at a frightening tempo, winning the ball in attacking positions and launching quick, neat attacks with fast and technically gifted players. West Ham are the anathema to this - they clogged the middle of the park and made it very hard for us to play our natural game in the first half. Coutinho was dropping deeper and deeper until our link between the midfield and attackers was almost cut.

Coutinho can play effectively in these kind of games in a central midfield role, but not to the extent required today. It works when he's still an attacking midfielder, who drops in on occasion to press, to steal the ball and start another attack etc., not to spend long periods of play deep in our half. I'd be really interested to see his average position today. So Rodgers got it right by subbing on Lucas (though I was surprised given his recent form and inclusion it wasn't Allen), who helped turn the midfield battle decisively in our favour, tucking Sterling into the centre where he caused all sorts of headaches and allowing our full backs to push up. We looked far more threatening in the second half, which obviously was helped by West Ham tiring.

As for our defensive game, we normally press so that the opposition are forced to make a rash pass or hoof it. Today, that was West Ham's gameplan even when they had time on the ball. Either launch it up for Carroll in the middle to flick on, or punt it down the wing for Downing, Jarvis etc. to chase and cross for Carroll. I found it frustrating that such dour and uninspiring football, played effectively, could work to negate good tactics and a well set up team. But Lucas coming on helped hugely with dealing with this too - they found it far harder to bring their wide players into the game as we controlled our own half of the pitch better, and Carroll (who for the most part was either dominated or cleaned out by Skrtel and Sakho) simply couldn't find anyone when he was able to bring the ball down.

So, as for the balance of play / tactical battle, I thought we got it right. Suarez was unlucky to hit the bar twice, Raheem forced a good save and a stunning one touch link up in their box, which 9/10 times would have seen Suarez bury it, ended with him scuffing his finish. With more luck, we'd have scored 3 or 4. Their only other effort of any note was Carroll's header against the bar and... well, let's say Mignolet had it covered anyway! A few of the West Ham fans sat around me were in agreement that we were the better side, and were terrified when we attacked with purpose. They also were unanimously of the opinion that this was West Ham's 'best home performance this season, by far'. And we still won. Happy days.

The decisions - first peno was clear, second peno was debatable but I think on balance it was the right decision. Flanagan would still have got to the ball despite Adrian's touch, had he not been tripped up. Then again, I'm sure we'd all be furious if the boot were on the other foot and Mignolet had tripped Carlton Cole like that. I've seen them not given before, so whether or not it was the right decision it's still a good thing we got it. Their goal was a farce too and everyone agreed. That ref will be pretty embarrassed tonight and with good reason, he handled the game badly today.

Winning ugly is vital, but to say we did so today doesn't quite tell the whole story. With a slice more luck, our number 7 could have had one or two sublime goals, and our team played some great attacking football at times. But if you play against teams like West Ham, and they're on their game, you have to adjust, to take your chances and do anything you can to make sure you leave with three points. And we did that.

Onwards and upwards. This is going to be a long week.

« Last Edit: April 7, 2014, 12:17:07 am by JerseyKopite »

Offline E2K

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #2 on: April 7, 2014, 12:19:39 am »
Full post tomorrow. For now, just one comment:

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #3 on: April 7, 2014, 09:50:29 am »
At half time, I'll admit to being concerned. West Ham, betraying a proud history of flowing football with Fat Sam's Aussie Rules yard-dog shite, had made their intentions clear and the preposterous decision to award them their equaliser would only encourage more grappling and groping. How would we cope? Me of little faith. As soon as Lucas walked on the pitch, I thought, 'We've  got this, bitches.' And, bitches, indeed we had got it. A remarkable show of character and skill from our players, and nous from our boss.

Bring on that small-time, think-they're-big-time, money-flashing shower next Sunday. They'll see what a big club backed by a proper crowd truly looks like and learn. Look on our works, ye mighty, and despair, Sheikh Mandias.
« Last Edit: April 7, 2014, 11:03:01 am by Cassiel »
Looks like I chose the wrong day to feed the pigeons...

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #4 on: April 7, 2014, 11:09:29 am »
I was concerned from the start, in the older days, we would've had an eye on next week and ignored the banana skin that was the soapy bubble headed Sam and his team. But whilst I didn't doubt us, I was calculating a draw in the equation for the final run in.
West Ham laid out a neat trap for us pushing a bit high but not so much there was too much space at the back and without the full backs moving forward in the first half you could see the lack of outlet for the ball to pull defenders apart in space.
Hey ho, the first was a pen, theirs was a clear foul, and the second was deserved, or at least I've seen them given time after time. I forgot what a dirty player Carroll is though. And I loved the way we seemed relaxed and not pressured, confidence and an expectation we'd get another chance at goal. Sturridge, perhaps out of all, was the one who looked like the pressure to score was getting to him, and I wasn't surprised he went late on.
Yep.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #5 on: April 7, 2014, 01:07:11 pm »
Another biblical pre-match ablution. Another sit down with my oldest mate Grant. Several moments of acute concern, punctuated by three heartfelt embraces. Bromance, by no means restricted to the two of us present. Those boys on the park are a bit tasty.

Wrote this for another site...

-

The England rugby squad that won the World Cup in 2003 had a team shout they used at pressure moments in games. Eventually it grew and became second nature for them, but early on, they'd all say, "TCUP". It stood for "Think Correctly Under Pressure".

When the pressure's on in big sporting tests, you see, and when fine margins decide ties, the ability to stay calm and think about a. what the problem is, and b. how to solve it, is often what sets teams aside. The first time they realised it was working was an away game in a howling gale against the All Blacks. They'd had two men sent off, with ten minutes to go, and they were penned in their own defensive third, with set piece after set piece putting on the squeeze, layering on the pressure. They won.

Later, they reached a world cup final, turning two games from scary half time deficits on the way, and played the home side on their own turf plus a partisan referee who ruled almost everything he could in the Aussies' favour in the final. They won. When it came to the crunch, they were able to think correctly under pressure.

The point of all this? Liverpool are starting to do that.

In the space of two weeks, we've seen two pretty shocking refereeing performances (Sunderland, West Ham) where the side's been given plenty of excuses to roll over and accept its fate. Plenty of scope for the players to feel sorry for themselves. Plenty of chances to deflect responsibility from themselves, and to blame others for their inability to solve the problems in front of them.

At Upton Park, Steve Peters was clearly visible in the tunnel before kick off again. But while we never saw him again in the flesh, he was just as visible when the boys came out again after half time. Rodgers brought on Lucas, calm settled over the side and its approach, and once again, they solved the problems in front of them.

At the end of the game, Gerrard said, "I think if you go back a couple of years, you would have found a side that would have felt sorry for themselves and sulked and that would have affected them in the second half. But the manager was fantastic - he told us to forget about it and that there was nothing we could change."

He was right. That's pure Steve Peters, and that's thinking correctly under pressure. They put the incident behind them and collectively moved on. When you nail that ability, it's a special, rare quality - the kind the early 80s side boasted maybe more than any other domestic side in history. They went to Rome, where they paid off referees, and they won the European Cup in their house.

We're starting to show that quality. I say 'starting to'. It'll take time to develop. But the side's really starting to show patience and calculation when it matters.

West Ham did the one thing that's thrown Liverpool more than anything else in recent times. They discarded all notion of actual Association Football and wholly ceded the midfield in favour of players who could lob a floated ball into the six yard box or thereabouts, and others who could throw limb and body in the general direction of the ball. Australian Rules Football. But we dealt with it. We're increasingly able to deal with it, and with anything else we're faced with. We have a problem, and we think, and we solve it, be it via calm and patient precision and skill, or a blitzkrieg of power and physicality.

Forget the league for a minute. That's a foundation that'll carry us to challenge after challenge in the coming seasons if the club does the right things around it.
« Last Edit: April 7, 2014, 01:16:36 pm by royhendo »

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #6 on: April 7, 2014, 01:20:04 pm »
Of course I was a bit concerned. We didn't play our best and our lead was short lived. What made it worse was how their goal was allowed. Clear foul and with the linesman waving, I don't understand how they came to the conclusion to give it. Could make any team go mad and lose focus. Then we had Suarez shots that hit the bar, which could have been indicators that things were not going to go our way. Things did not go according to plan in the first half.

Fortunately, this team has a very strong mentality. At HT, I expected us to change something. Never expected us to put Lucas on though. But immediately, I thought we took charge of the game. Passed the ball around and put ourselves in control. I liked that. Must confess I enjoy watching Sterling, in particular when he brings the ball forward. He's so quick. A real asset. Where Suarez can turn 2-3 players inside out in 1 square meter, Sterling can fly past opponents at will.

That we scored the winner wasn't surprising, but it was a great relief. Penalty? Yes, but even more so after the poor decision to allow their goal.
Also liked how quick Rodgers reacted to their change. Toure was on asap to counter their artillery for Cole and Carroll. It's a boring approach they have, but they make the most of what they have. Carroll will be made to look a threat, but will he become anything but a launch target playing that style of football? Not really. Compare to how players improve under Rodgers. Was pleased to see how well Skrtel coped with Carroll. It's not an easy task.

Gerrard? Beautiful pass for Suarez for the first penalty. Then two ace penalties. Thought it was strange that he kept playing the deeper role when Lucas came on. IMO Lucas is the one most suited for that job. But it worked. Again. Rodgers, like this team of ours, find ways to adapt and win. The win vs West Ham wasn't the prettiest, but it's a very, very impressive one. It was hard-earned and the pressure increases for each game. And when Suarez and Sturridge failed to find the net, who did? Our captain. With some help from... Flanagan! When Coutinho couldn't get our game to function, Lucas did! There's more strength in this team than people give us credit for.

Finally, what's most pleasing now is, of course, that we're top of the league. We've won playing great football. We've won playing like vs West Ham. Eventually, we've ended up here. We've got the job done to put ourselves in a position to fight for the title. We've earned that right. We've got the chance. Now let's take it!

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline E2K

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #7 on: April 7, 2014, 01:23:33 pm »
Are people still expecting the pressure of a title race to ‘get’ to this team? I try not to listen to the media too much so I honestly don’t know, but they’re likely to be bitterly disappointed if they are. The truth is that this Liverpool team has yet to show any sign of buckling under the strain of a title challenge or, for that matter, 24 years of history. If performances have been some way short of optimum at times over the past few weeks and months, if goals were occasionally leaked (to Swansea, to Cardiff), if points were dropped in certain games (to Villa, to West Brom) and late comebacks required (against Fulham), it was less about pressure than it was the manifestation of a group of players working out the kinks and growing together as both individuals and as a collective, the reflection of a team moving so rapidly through its evolution that, at times, it’s been sprinting just to catch up on itself. But pressure? No. Not once has ‘pressure’ looked to have been an issue. Well, ok, maybe leaving aside the final 20 minutes against Sunderland as the players on the pitch and the supporters in the stands briefly joined together in a kind of terrified, emasculating psychosis which allowed a team hurtling towards the Championship to look decent. Aside from that, though, it hasn’t been an issue and that's a credit to all involved, to the manager and the backroom staff, to Steve Peters and to the players themselves. And so it proved again yesterday as an obstinate, physical, immovable object of a team on home turf tested Liverpool’s mental and physical resolve and came up short, not because of a contentious penalty decision but because they simply weren’t good enough or big enough to stop us. Nothing stops this train and if anything was going to derail it, it was never going to be pressure, it was going to be simple mathematics measurable in pounds and pence.

On Saturday, Alvaro Negredo (you know, the fella many mistook for one half of the Premier League’s best strikeforce before Christmas) got 25 minutes against Southampton. 25 minutes was all he was afforded. What a nice situation for his manager to have. When Brendan Rodgers looks to his bench for some attacking options, he sees Victor Moses and Iago Aspas (in truth, he probably doesn’t even bother looking to his bench for attacking options anymore unless Joe Allen happens to be deputising for Phil Coutinho or Raheem Sterling). True, it was Rodgers’ decision to sign Aspas for £7m and loan out £10.5m Fabio Borini, yet it would be similarly accurate to state that outlays of £22m (Jovetic), £16m (Negredo) and £27m (Dzeko) are far more likely to guarantee you readymade game-changers from the bench than the comparatively modest sums spent by Rodgers on the promise offered by a relatively inexperienced youngster (Borini) and a player who had spent much of his career in the lower divisions of Spanish football (Aspas). Chelsea’s squad, meanwhile, is apparently so steeped in talent and ability that they were able to allow one of the Premier League’s most creative players, Juan Mata, to leave for Manchester United and Romelu Lukaku go out on loan to Everton (well, either that or the manager at Stamford Bridge has fucked up royally). They also nipped in front of us to sign two of their key players, Willian and Salah. Liverpool have one player who cost over £20m whereas each of their main title rivals have several. And yet having said all that, suddenly Rodgers’ squad, previously the one glaring Achilles heel of Liverpool’s title challenge, is starting to look pretty decent too.

Whereas once not so long ago Kolo Touré, the villain against West Brom and very nearly against Fulham, would have deputised for the injured Daniel Agger, yesterday Liverpool were able to call on £17m worth of French international in Mamadou Sakho, who didn’t disappoint. West Ham, particularly in the first half where they perhaps had more possession than many of us expected, predictably bombarded the penalty area with high balls for Andy Carroll and yet very few of them caused a real problem (aside from when he isolated Glen Johnson at the back post in the second half and hit the crossbar with a superb header). That’s credit to both Sakho and Martin Skrtel, who was outstanding once again. Diamé was also getting a good bit of joy down Flanagan’s flank early on, but both centre-backs covered well. One interception by Skrtel, on the only occasion that a flick-on by Carroll got a teammate (Nolan) in on goal, was especially impressive. In addition, Sakho’s distribution was, typically for him, both aggressive and accurate. What a player to be able to call on when a first-choice centre-back gets injured. There was more too. Brendan Rodgers apparently said before the game that Joe Allen would have started had he not picked up a knock. Presumably that meant a start for Coutinho or Sterling in his place, fantastic options to have. And come the second-half when he knew he had to change it, he was able to call on Lucas Leiva. Many still seem to view Lucas solely as a defensive player, a destroyer, but he’s so much more than that and his introduction brought a level of calm and control to the game that culminated in the glorious, lock-picking pass that sent Flanagan away for the penalty.

On a day when Suárez (despite two glorious attempts which hit the crossbar and the trickery which led to the first penalty), Sturridge and the substituted Coutinho played below their considerable bests, others stepped up. Lucas (second half) and Sakho (from the start) came off the bench to play massive roles in a key game, Flanagan grew into it after a shaky start, Skrtel was magnificent, Gerrard superb. Next week, it may well be Suárez or Sturridge who make the difference, or Coutinho, or Johnson. At the time when we need it to the most, this squad is coming together nicely and that’s maybe the biggest plus to come out of yesterday’s game besides the three points and lack of a yellow card for the captain. Pressure? How’s this for pressure – for much of the second half, West Ham barely saw the ball. Liverpool chased the winning goal patiently without a hint of panic and, once it came, they closed the game out like champions. They were so controlled that had the penalty incident not happened, I felt certain that a second goal would have eventually arrived at some point anyway. And while some chose to see the penalty as a means for the referee to atone for his appalling error at the end of the first half (which, to be honest, is kind of like comparing a kick in the balls to a slap on the wrist), it was nothing of the sort – Flanagan had effectively taken the ball past the ‘keeper and had his ankles tapped in the process. To suggest, as Allardyce did afterwards, that Flanagan dived deserves nothing but scorn, especially given his own downplaying of Carroll slapping Mignolet in the face and arm at the end of the first half. But hey, that's Sam.

These weeks between games now seem to be growing longer and longer, and the wait for City on Sunday is likely to be interminable. I’m already nervous as hell about it because it could potentially spell the end of this wonderful dream, and yet the manager’s statement after the game that ‘the mentality is to be fearless’ means that I’m looking forward to it with a fair degree of confidence too. I believe that, on Sunday, fearlessness above all else will be the key to victory. They’ve got world class talents, so do we; they’ve got an excellent manager, so do we; a poor decision from a linesman cost us a deserved point (at least) in their place at the end of 2013 and they, likewise, have the ability to come to Anfield and be the better team. This game is a toss-up and I believe that attitude and hunger will tell in the end. If they do, we can't lose. City’s win on Saturday means that they’ll be arriving next Sunday 4 points ahead of Chelsea, meaning that a draw is sufficient for them to stay ahead of both title rivals (assuming they win their games in hand, which they will). They’ll also know that, of the two Merseyside grounds, they have a better chance of winning at Goodison in a few weeks than at Anfield. That has to play into Pellegrini’s mind at some point. It did at the Emirates just over a week ago where his team began by overwhelming an Arsenal side that’s been reeling in recent weeks, then allowed the result to slip away to such an extent that Javi Garcia was brought on to safeguard the point late-on rather than trying to take all three (by way of comparison, Swansea were still attacking right to the very end of their 2-2 draw in north London). Pellegrini claimed afterwards to be happy with a haul of 4 points from 6 against the Gunners and Manchester United, but that was nonetheless the result which put this title in Liverpool’s hands, and don’t be surprised if Pellegrini makes the same mistake at some point on Sunday in the knowledge that a point is better for them than for us.

‘The mentality is to be fearless’. It has to be. It will be. And if City elect not to fight fire with fire, they’ll get burned.
« Last Edit: April 7, 2014, 01:26:39 pm by E2K »
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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #8 on: April 7, 2014, 01:27:57 pm »
EDIT - the post after E2K again, I'm cursed! :D

Two general points for me, on a very hard earned and well fought for win:

1) As awful as West Ham's tactics they're undeniably tough to handle when they're up for it (and they clearly were intent on trying to spoil our party). With any soft free kick within 70 yards of our goal providing an opportunity to lump it in the mixer and hope for a lucky break it meant we couldn't switch off or relax until the final whistle. I thought we handled their approach very well. Mignolet seemed confident and the courage and commitment of our players couldn't be faulted.

2) Although we were by no means at our free flowing best, there were times in the second half especially where we still worked the ball up the pitch and made it look ridiculously simple (until it came to the final ball). Where West Ham launched it at the earliest opportunity we built from the back and the likes of Sakho, Lucas and Henderson played lovely short, simple 10 yard vertical passes that got us into good positions. With West Ham defending deep in numbers and with their sheer size it was then not so surprising that clear chances were at a premium until the last few minutes when Sterling really opened them up a couple of times.

Not a great performance compared to some we've seen but I've no doubt this was still a great win. It was a real test of our credentials and courage and once again, this wonderful team found a way to come through. Bring on City!

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #9 on: April 7, 2014, 09:55:56 pm »
Its funny how the critics saying that we concede too many goals have suddenly gone quiet. In our last 3 games we've conceded only twice, with both being from corners but one unfairly given. We've proved that we can win the low-scoring games while keeping it tight at the back.

No doubt these same wolves will come out of the woods again if we win another game 3-2 or 4-3 of course

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #10 on: April 7, 2014, 10:36:50 pm »
Interesting how we switched formation in the second half and managed to push the full backs on far more.

In the first half they were coming from really deep, and they were running into space occupied by many splitting west ham players.

In the second half we managed to push up more and keep them far more advanced which gave west ham different problems to worry about.

Lucas also up gave us more solidity in the second half, he's good in the air and managed to win lots of second phase ball.

There was only really ever going to be one winner once the change had been made, another tactical bit of magic from Rodgers, who just gets better and better.
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Offline robgomm

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #11 on: April 7, 2014, 10:53:35 pm »
There was a moment when we were keeping possession that Peter Drury (on my feed, not sure which channel) said, "Dare I say it, is this the sort of time that Brendan Rodgers may just think that he wishes he'd kept Andy Carroll around, for another option?"

No, Peter, I said. As we moved the ball around the pitch, it dropped to Lucas who tried a short pass that was cleared to our half for a throw-in. We went again, building up slowly. Commentators rambled, not paying notice that we are building a move. Suddenly, Lucas skims a lovely through ball to Flanagan and the commentators burst to life.

Plan A is not just Plan A, it has A2, A3, A4. We have so many ways to skin a cat. The more people watch us, the better they'll understand.

Offline robgomm

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #12 on: April 7, 2014, 11:02:16 pm »
Only doubt for me about Brendan there was the switch the 3-5-2, which was to counter Cole I guess but although it shortlived (5 minutes + 4 of stoppage time), it seemed to lead to us sacrificing possession to control the space deep. I actually though we were bossing possession extremely effectively at 2-1 up and I thought the diamond would keep us passing rings around their orthodox 4-4-2.

Obviously they didn't score but was the impact on the performance overall a positive one or not? Certainly Toure had his involvement, god bless him he gave me a scare with that header back to Mignolet but he stood up well.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #13 on: April 7, 2014, 11:04:08 pm »
I liked what Rodgers said about playing different teams and getting asked "different kinds of questions", and how we have been able to handle that. Some of the most difficult games teams in the Premier League play are the ones where you're going to a hostile environment and the opposition's approach is to essentially make the pitch a battleground.

We have passed teams to death, we have blitzed teams with total domination, we've soaked up pressure and smacked teams on the counter, we have gone into scraps and taken away the three points over a hard-fought 90 minutes.

Winning consistently takes ability, it takes tactical know-how, but above all it takes a winner's mentality. Nobody can say we don't have that.
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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #14 on: April 7, 2014, 11:04:54 pm »
Only doubt for me about Brendan there was the switch the 3-5-2

I thought when Kolo came on, he held up five fingers, not three.

Offline robgomm

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #15 on: April 7, 2014, 11:15:04 pm »
I thought when Kolo came on, he held up five fingers, not three.

I think you are right indeed, apologies.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #16 on: April 7, 2014, 11:15:06 pm »
The game was right in the balance for 41 mins. Then Brendan scribbled something in his little book.

These days when I see that I feel that hes figured out exactly what the oppo is doing to frustrate us, and exactly what to do about it, and its now going to be just a matter of time. Fact.
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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #17 on: April 7, 2014, 11:17:42 pm »
Only doubt for me about Brendan there was the switch the 3-5-2, which was to counter Cole I guess but although it shortlived (5 minutes + 4 of stoppage time), it seemed to lead to us sacrificing possession to control the space deep. I actually though we were bossing possession extremely effectively at 2-1 up and I thought the diamond would keep us passing rings around their orthodox 4-4-2.

Obviously they didn't score but was the impact on the performance overall a positive one or not? Certainly Toure had his involvement, god bless him he gave me a scare with that header back to Mignolet but he stood up well.

I don't see how the switch to a 3CB defense had any negative effects on us. I saw no sacrifice in our ability to maintain possession.

Sturridge would not have helped us against the random aerial assault. To me, it was the right decision.
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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #18 on: April 7, 2014, 11:20:19 pm »
Only doubt for me about Brendan there was the switch the 3-5-2, which was to counter Cole I guess but although it shortlived (5 minutes + 4 of stoppage time), it seemed to lead to us sacrificing possession to control the space deep. I actually though we were bossing possession extremely effectively at 2-1 up and I thought the diamond would keep us passing rings around their orthodox 4-4-2.

Obviously they didn't score but was the impact on the performance overall a positive one or not? Certainly Toure had his involvement, god bless him he gave me a scare with that header back to Mignolet but he stood up well.

I thought it was a very smart move from Rodgers. The only danger at that stage was the aerial threat - literally every single time they got the ball or won a freekick (even by their own cornerflag!) the first thing they did was lump it forward towards the edge of our box. Having 2v2 back there in that situation its inevitable that they'd win a header and get a chance.

As the Toure headed clearance showed it was a perfect move. In that situation we had Skrtel-Toure-Sakho all bunched up together inbetween Cole and Carroll, and without Toure its probably likely Carroll would have won that header. Having an extra defender there also allowed us to double-team Carroll, like Skrtel and Henderson did on a few corners in the second half.

Of course we probably conceded possession slightly, but at that stage it was more valuable to have an extra centreback rather than an extra body in midfield who would get taken out of the play by a long-ball as soon as we lost possession

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #19 on: April 7, 2014, 11:25:02 pm »
Who would have thought that at the start of the season, that it would be Lucas Leiva playing a defense splitting pass after a knockdown in a central attacking position, taking three defenders out of the equation for Jon Flanagan to burst through the square-on defense, earning a well-deserved and correctly adjudged penalty that would lead to our winner at Upton Park to take us top of the league after a 9th consecutive triumph?

Long sentence (and probably mixed up some tenses) but it would take thousands more of those to completely explain and give due credit to the magnitude of the work that Rodgers has done here in the past two seasons.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #20 on: April 8, 2014, 12:30:21 am »
Normally going behind at Cardiff would have had me terrified but the team are transmitting confidence and I knew we had enough time we'd pull it back and I felt the same after the Carroll assault, disappointed but relatively relaxed. That's the point we've arrived at, you have confidence that the football will take care of itself this team are mentally very strong and that cant be underestimated at this point. I'm not really worried about City, I'm enjoying this run in and City won't know what has hit them on Sunday, the atmosphere will unlike anything they'll have experienced in the Premier League, It'll be approaching Chelsea 2005 levels and that will effect most teams. Football wise it will be close but mentally I think we'll have the edge ad if we do fuck up it'll have been a great season and next season we're just as capable.

Dr Peters is no magician, his advice is never going to help England win the World Cup because Hodgson is so far behind the curve that mentality isn't going to be the big problem, the football will be the problem. He could never have been so effective with the British Cycling team if Victoria Pendelton and Chris Hoy hadn't put the training in and weren't at the top of their game because all the mental advantage comes to nothing if you're not capable of winning your goal and that is to the credit of Brendan Rodgers. He has built a team capable of winning the Premier League and in a competition so close mentality may well prove to be the deciding factor and I can't see us falling short in that department despite this being our first time for a while.



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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #21 on: April 8, 2014, 12:30:30 am »
Great read E2K & Corkboy. Again the emphasis should be the fact that we got through. Things didn't go for us and we were on the end of a bad decision but we regrouped and went again in search of a winner. Like Stevie hinted at, it is easy to wallow in the misery of an injustice but we didn't let it. Brendan changed things but we stuck to our principles and fashioned a chance as we only know.

The pass from Lucas was exquisite,  the run from Flanno was well timed and the keeper did the rest for us. Im covinced that it was a pen and a gentle brush over the ball doesn't let him off the hook. In these situations,  the keeper usually brings the attacker down and concedes a pen and I would question their judgement and composure. Just like when racing out your area, you have to clearly win the ball else you risk being punished. Would he he been better off shepherding Flanno to the byline knowing that he still had a lot to do, or trust in you defenders to help you out. Guess its easy in hindsight and not when you have a split second to think and instinct takes over.

Then again, that is what we do to teams - we pressure them into making mistakes, whether its in our own half, the halfway line, or in their penalty area. Beating Fulham was all about pressurising the defender to take down Sturridge,  something he probably didn't need to do. Same against Utd. That's why we win so many pens.

Does anyone have any stats with regards to how many times we have isolated a defender in their area this season? Because defenders know we can score almost at will, they take bigger risks to stop us.

All in all, good to grind out a result once in a while and good experience for when we play other shithouse teams like Palace or Chelsea!
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Offline PoorScouser

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #22 on: April 8, 2014, 01:46:40 am »
Very encouraging I thought. The attack wasn't as devastating as we have been but we showed (not for the first time this season) we can cope when they aren't firing on all cylinders. Sturridge wasn't looking himself and was snatching at chances and picking the wrong ball fairly often,  and while Suarez showed some quality touches and movement the finishes didn't quite look like off for most of the game. It is to be expected occasionally though and it is always gonna be tough for anyone against a well manned and marshalled defence, something of a trademark for Allardyce sides. Tell yer what though that Gerrard fella is a bit of alright isn't he. Another monster performance by our General to compliment the good work of Field Marshal Rodgers in preparation for and during battle.

We defended the aerial assaults well in the first half though it is always gonna lead to the odd hairy moment when the other side are banging the crosses in we seemed to deal with it well I genuinely didn't expect us to concede. wouldn't say anyone bar Stevie particularly excelled but there was the odd decent contributions and nobody particularly stunk the place out and West Ham have to be given credit for stopping us imposing what has seemed like an iron will to play games out on our terms recently.

Second half we were much improved overall in terms of control, but I felt Sturridge was looking really below par after a solid but unspectacular first half. Given the nature of their equaliser we deserve a hell of a lot of credit for this facing a West Ham side that wasn't giving us an inch and seemed to fancy themselves to get something out the game. Which links on to this snippet..

Dr Peters is no magician, his advice is never going to help England win the World Cup because Hodgson is so far behind the curve that mentality isn't going to be the big problem, the football will be the problem. He could never have been so effective with the British Cycling team if Victoria Pendelton and Chris Hoy hadn't put the training in and weren't at the top of their game because all the mental advantage comes to nothing if you're not capable of winning your goal and that is to the credit of Brendan Rodgers. He has built a team capable of winning the Premier League and in a competition so close mentality may well prove to be the deciding factor and I can't see us falling short in that department despite this being our first time for a while.

The work done by Steve Peters is obviously having a positive effect in this regard but what a fucking manager we have eh? He is the one who has instilled the calmness and self belief into the players to be able to deal with psychological blows like the West Ham goal in-game, and Rodgers almost Zen like reaction after trying to catch a word with the ref at HT and presumably being told to do one is definitely rubbing off on the players in the dressing room. No bitching and moaning, just get on with it and get the job we came here to done. Has the slightly controvesial penalty not been given I am pretty confident we would have still found the goal we needed.

On top of that is looking like one of the most tactically astute managers in the league. When we purr it looks boss too as we have seen. We are blessed to have someone who is able to get the extra yard from players better than anyone else I can think of, while still being able to mix it on the tactical side with the best around. Everything I have seen so far points to him only improving further tactically and he is already strong in that area.

Overall, as I said in the opening very encouraging performance in what I fully expected to be a tough game going in. For what it's worth I really think we will fuck City though for some reason? Go figure.....
« Last Edit: April 8, 2014, 01:56:29 am by PoorScouser »
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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #23 on: April 8, 2014, 01:48:49 am »
I thought when Kolo came on, he held up five fingers, not three.

Well, he should've been holding up 6 but I guess he's polite enough to wait until next season starts.
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Offline Redshadow

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #24 on: April 8, 2014, 02:06:05 am »
In a grand scheme, I actually love that people talk about the second penalty, a penalty that nobody would have a lot of discussion over if it were given in the middle of a season and if there were no bad decision in the first half. This talk makes people believe that we are nothing but a lucky (heck, even corrupt :D ) team. I want them to continue talking about other aspects of our games, but never about our actual capacity and when they do, it's too late to do anything about it. It's just like this game; they talked about the aerial strength of West Ham, they only had one chance; ONE! So, yes, we're just lucky in this game ... (lucky for the last nine games, too)
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Offline DanA

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #25 on: April 8, 2014, 02:12:44 am »
We seem to show improvement week by week. For me this week it was Mignolet. The keeping has always been first class but his ball use has lifted massive and it's been very evident to me the last two weeks. I looked up the stats just now and he's had something like 83% pass accuracy the last two games. That's almost a 20% jump on his season average and for me it's been very noticeable to the naked eye. Long may it continue.

Another I'll single out for praise is Skrtel. I think he's a confidence player and right now he's confident. The last month IMO he's step up to playing some of the best football of his career.  He's not just the in form CB at Liverpool right now, he's the in form CB in the league, maybe even Europe.

Lastly the cameo from Lucas I thought gave us a taste of a very bright future. He kept possession well, recycled play and picked a few nice passes including the one for the match winning penalty. All that good stuff but the bit I'm most intrigued about was his ability to shut down any counter play Westham had. He's also got an innate ability to close down a man at speed and come out with the ball.

Henderson and Allen can match his ability to harassing but Lucas is unique in his ability to win the ball and I have a strong feeling that if he starts against City he'll give us an overwhelming edge in possession and I reckon there's a good chance he'll win the ball high up the pitch at some stage leading to a counter attacking goal. I'm got a good feeling about Lucas higher up the pitch.
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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #26 on: April 8, 2014, 04:14:39 am »
I just realized that the West Ham "Bubbles" song had its beginnings though a local player called Billy J. "Bubbles" Murray... which sort of gives new meaning to "Forever Blowing Bubbles" :P :duh

Offline dirks digglers

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #27 on: April 8, 2014, 06:11:31 am »
I'll make no bones about it, I've had moments this season where I couldn't watch parts of key games for terror at how close we were coming to really getting things right. It felt like we could still conceivably be derailed by an injustice or that lack of experience and killer instinct. The Chelsea and City games earlier in the season were just that step too far, by hook or by crook. But since then we've all ticked ff the milestones, the indicators of real change. First we HAD to get fourth. Crucial for the future of the club, for recruitment; for keeping top players. Then we were in for third, automatic CL qualification. A few weeks ago, and we all felt it, it was suddenly all on the table for us, it was suddenly all possible.

Maybe that now-dissipating fear was just born of the bitter recent experience of setbacks and disappointments, maybe just pragmatism. Not any more. It's different for different supporters but the worst of the fear has gone for me, I just have faith. When the non-goal went in for them, I still knew we'd win. Whatever happens now, it's eyes wide open, strapped in, an all-together charge for the finish line.

And it was another excellent performance of a different sort. This has always been what the best teams do. Win different matches against different challenges. Something we just couldn't do consistently for seemingly years unending. Make no mistake, this was always going to be tough and we knew it. Allardyce did what we all expected and parked the enormobus and then attempted to play second ball scramble with our defence at any opportunity.

But Sakho and Skrtel were superb, they competed physically and they were aggressive. They deserved a clean sheet.

And well played Brendan again, the half time sub was spot on, we absolutely bossed the possession after that. The players are on a roll but the manager is even more so. It all comes from him.

When we scored the second we entered into what had previously been dangerous last quarter panic mode territory. Not yesterday. We still popped it around, with confidence in the middle of the park, retained and recycled the ball. It was a country mile away from where we were even 6 months ago. That's how I felt at least.

The camaraderie and team spirit is immense it just oozes off the players. All of them, together. It's inspiring. The calmness of Rodgers is unreal. I keep thinking the closer we get, can he hold it together? I think he can. Looking at our team, our club, we look tighter, calmer, sharper than our rivals. Can we translate that into 5 wins? Yes we can.
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Offline Livo.85

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #28 on: April 8, 2014, 08:34:53 am »
Referees are a bit strange aren't they?

I have a lot of empathy for them on one hand (when they have to make decisions in an instant from poor positions) but then on the other hand... I think you deserve all the abuse & criticism you get when you fail to use common sense.
Surely there should be some sort of common sense test that is required to be passed in order to be a referee at the highest level.
3 yellow cards to 1 player, sending off the wrong player, contradicting help from your assistants, failure to help referees from assistants etc. It is quite concerning when these instances occur.
Yes there are valid arguments for extra officials & help from 4th official using video replay. Improvements need to be made here.
What about an argument for a common sense test though?
Surely there are instances in a football match when common sense should overrule the letter of the law? That incident at Upton Park is just one example from plenty of footballing incidents. Don't use the rulebook in spite of common sense.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #29 on: April 8, 2014, 08:49:46 am »
Dr. Peter's magic has certainly made an impression on the players. Over the years, I've not seen this kind of mental toughness in the squad. We'd usually disappear and cower in shame or sulked as Gerrard puts it. In difficult games where we can't play our normal football, we've managed to dig deep to do enough to win games. Since the start of the year, we've improved gradually in each game. I don't think we're arrogant like City in any way (where they could just rip teams to shreds in moments of brilliance and not playing well the rest of the time) but we appear to look like a team with a lot of belief in themselves, in the system and the manager. This is the kind of Liverpool I want to see. Well, it's been 24 years since I've seen us win and prior to that, was spoilt seeing us win just about everything. Thank you, SAF

Offline SMacDougall

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #30 on: April 8, 2014, 08:55:01 am »
No-one seems to have mentioned this, as far as I've seen so far, but in the build up to the game on Sky, one of the commentators said something like:

"West Ham, at Upton Park, the latest stop for the Liverpool Express".

My spine tingled when I heard it, as it's true. We've been like an express train for the past 9 games, winning each and every one of them. Each game now is seen as "can this side be the side that finally halts the train?".


Offline TheDarkKnight

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #31 on: April 8, 2014, 01:14:32 pm »
It was a huge win for obvious reasons. One reason for its significance that has gone under the radar is the fact that is it made it five away wins on the bounce in the league for the Tricky Reds. That's a great achievement in its own right. And the manner of those victories is satisfying, because it's been a variety.

The game that marked the five-game winning run on the road, Fulham away back in February, was supposed to be a banker, but of course didn't turn out that way. Going behind twice, being 2-1 down with under 20 minutes to go, that game demanded a comeback and we pulled it off with a last-minute winner. Sunday's match at West Ham, the one that made it five on the bounce, was one in which a comeback wasn't needed but, like at Craven Cottage, resolve and character certainly was, and that was shown in abundance.

The two toughest games on paper in this five-game haul came one after the other in the middle of it, Southampton and Manchester United. Both won in as comfortable a style as you can hope for at those places, both won 0-3. Both big tests, both overcome with flying colours.

There was also the Cardiff game of course, which showcased a bit of both - character and style. Having to come from behind twice, doing so, then once ahead not looking back, going on to win resoundingly.

Before this run of five away games even some of our own fanbase was doubtful of our credentials to win enough away matches. Some thought it could even kill our chances of a top four finish.

Prior to the Fulham game, few believed in our title credentials, while many didn't even dare to dream. Following the West Ham match, everyone is dreaming, and many believe we will do it. I certainly do. But do you?

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #32 on: April 8, 2014, 01:25:11 pm »
For me it was as if Sam had put on his stove pipe hat and dictated a telegram for Brendan that he then sent to the post office by horse and cart. We all knew how they would play, and what got in the way of a straightforward win was a last ounce of sparkle missing in our front two and refereeing that allowed a goal that should have been a yellow at least for Carroll. We should have been running rings around them from the off, but instead wore them out and did our penno routine, lots of action in their box that meant the odds were we would get one. Or two. My biggest concern is that our last two games have been the least decisive performances. Still, a win is a win, they are all three pointers, and that is 27 in a row.
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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #33 on: April 8, 2014, 01:27:32 pm »
My biggest concern is that our last two games have been the least decisive performances. Still, a win is a win, they are all three pointers, and that is 27 in a row.

Assume you mean the Sunderland game as well but don't forget Spurs in between. 3 wins, +6 GD...would have been a reckless person not to have taken that if offered in advance.

Offline Miltonred

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #34 on: April 8, 2014, 01:31:58 pm »
Its funny how the critics saying that we concede too many goals have suddenly gone quiet. In our last 3 games we've conceded only twice, with both being from corners but one unfairly given. We've proved that we can win the low-scoring games while keeping it tight at the back.

No doubt these same wolves will come out of the woods again if we win another game 3-2 or 4-3 of course
It's the laziest of critiques, but the one most likely to make a person look insightful. If we don't win this thing it probably won't be because we draw a match 0-0. It'll be a goal or more than one goal, that trips us up, it's logical. Then those who have said we might not win can say its because of our defence.
Is it because of Chlsseas defence that they aren't top?  They let two goals in against Villa and Palace?

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #35 on: April 8, 2014, 01:56:02 pm »
For me it was as if Sam had put on his stove pipe hat and dictated a telegram for Brendan that he then sent to the post office by horse and cart. We all knew how they would play, and what got in the way of a straightforward win was a last ounce of sparkle missing in our front two and refereeing that allowed a goal that should have been a yellow at least for Carroll. We should have been running rings around them from the off, but instead wore them out and did our penno routine, lots of action in their box that meant the odds were we would get one. Or two. My biggest concern is that our last two games have been the least decisive performances. Still, a win is a win, they are all three pointers, and that is 27 in a row.

Surely you're forgetting a nice and "decisive" 4-0 win somewhere in our last two performances?

Offline Ecuared

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #36 on: April 8, 2014, 02:35:38 pm »
I loved the fact that Rodgers saw the change that needed to be made and executed it at half time, instead of waiting till the 60th or 70th minute. I thought that us taking control of midfield and the tactical change of pusingh the fullbacks forwards allowed us to probe a bit more in their end, and didn't allow Diame to turn and run at us, which was what really gave us trouble in the first half. I thought that sustained pressure we were able to put on them right from the start of the half led to them taking the penalty relatively early in the game, only 70 minutes in. We should have put the game to bed after that but a slip, a crossbar, and the keeper combined to keep things super tense going into the final minutes of the game (until Kolo settled things down!).

Anyways, I've always been a fan of changing things up at halftime if changes are clearly needed, and I was happy to see the gaffer do so. It might be something he learned from working with Mourinho, who, prick that he is, is the best in the business at it.
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Offline Hollywood Balls

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #37 on: April 8, 2014, 02:36:01 pm »





I love reading the tactical analyses in these threads. Normally I use them as an indication of how we are likely to progress in the season, however, at this stage of the run-in our tactics become less important than our form and mental fortitude.


Year after year we have seen other teams having to scrape a result and win without playing great football in order to triumph. This year, it’s us. Like many others, I don’t know how to process the information that my senses are taking in. How am I meant to feel seeing our team reacting to the incompetent referee with such cold-blooded stoicism? I can freely admit that despite staying calm for the majority of this wonderful season my head’s now completely gone. I don’t know at what point that precisely happened – it was probably Fulham away.


As a supporter I’m way behind the squad mentally. As Stevie said, the team would have sulked or folded a couple of years ago in similar circumstances – but not this one. This team has a patient and cold-eyed determination to win. It must be dispiriting to play against them, as un-nerving as being stalked by a sociopath.


The received wisdom is that teams who know “how to win” from previous title run-ins have a massive advantage. Often, as the pressure crunches, players can mentally freeze as they approach the run-in and they need a figure who can disregard the pressure to push the rest of them over the finishing line. Someone touched by madness. A Cantona or a Balotelli perhaps.


Well we have such a player. Despite the captain’s heroics, it was Luis Suarez’s tenacity and impudence that stood out for me. I have no idea what they put in the water in Uruguay but it encourages crazy. While that man is on the pitch our team always has a chance of winning, no matter the odds.


The national bird of Uruguay is the Great Kiskadee – or Pitangus sulphuratus – which is a tyrant flycatcher. This noisy and aggressive little fucker is completely untamed and is always hunting, ready to pounce on it’s prey which lives in constant terror. This is the bird that belongs on our perch.


Why am I writing about Uruguayan birds? Like I said, my head’s gone. I always knew I would go crazy if we won the league and it’s finally happening.



That’s why I know we are going to be champions.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2014, 02:39:32 pm by Hollywood Balls »
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Offline Red number seven

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #38 on: April 8, 2014, 02:55:56 pm »
2 things:

1. Not accepting that even good excuses for failure are ok.

2. Finding a way to win.


Said it before, say it again - winningness. There is no such word but it explains things perfectly.

Under Ferguson, that was possibly United's best quality. Last 20 odd years, LFC have been only too happy to accept excuses for failure and have been unable to find a way to win far too often.

Winningness. We are developing it.
"You just have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel" - Gennaro Gattuso, May, 2005

And then we'll get 4th as well and everyone in the whole world can do one.

Offline lfcderek

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 1 Liverpool 2
« Reply #39 on: April 8, 2014, 03:55:29 pm »
A great, great game of football. Just re-watched it and was it pretty? Not bloody likely. None of our attacking players shone - although Sterling had another very good game. Our defense was resolute to a man.

So, a great, great game of football? It was because we had 11 winners out on that pitch. Oh aye, 2 more that came on as a sub and a 14th called Brendan Rodgers. Everyone gave 100%, everyone stayed calm, everyone stayed confident.

It's not just that we wanted it more - it's that we knew we'd get it as well. Someone earlier in the thread made comparisons with the early 80's sides having this sort of mentality. If we drop points against City or the next game against Norwich - I'll still be confident that this lot of ours won't drop points the following match. If we don't win the league this I'm confident that this lot of ours will be better next year.

I've not felt like this in a long time.
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