Topic: The Round and Round and Round the Table we go, Reading's Goalie 0.

[Hinesy]

*Goalkeepers! Feeling a little unloved? Had a hard few games? Not played since November? Then why not play Liverpool FC and become the hero you always wanted to be! See your dramatic saves on tv! Marvel at your acrobatic display for one game only! Yes you! You can play Liverpool and have THE GAME OF YOUR LIFE!!*
apply now, terms and conditions: you must play against Liverpool and then have a shit game before and after. Your shorts may go down as well as up


What can we say that hasn't been said before? MacBeth in goal is our bete noire this week, last week it was Goalie X, next week it'll be someone else.

We should've had the game out of sight, we should've scored and yes their goalie had a great game but there were other chances too.

Pepe, not to be outdone, made a couple of fantastic saves too.

Questions:

What is it do you think that causes us to play like this against lower teams such as Reading, West Ham, West Brom, etc etc?

That to be fair is the only real question I have here. There are some minor points: Sturridge: was he fit? Do we need better fitness to allow mass pouring forward of our team enabling the strikers to finish, or are we a team that still is missing a vital key? But basically, why do you think we've done this all season?

[PhaseOfPlay]

What I will say will be hugely disagreed with, but it's my practical experience from over a decade of building teams and developing players, saving teams from relegation and winning trophies. I'm not giving an opinion, I'm making an observation based on practical experience -

When you go into games focusing on "winning" them, you end up with performances like that one - stilted, rushed, forced, high intensity but low-intelligence; random, sloppy, and lacking in real tempo or rhythm. In those games, we seem to have had the mentality of "we must win".

When you go into games focusing on "playing your football" (whatever your "football" is composed of), you will end up winning more, because you will make better decisions, better use of space, better use of the principles of play, play with the right tempo, the right energy, and the right composure on the ball. And so your plan, if it is superior, should lead to a win, at least 50% of the time (standard across all team sports). If you have a superior plan and superior players, you might skew that standard a little past 50%. If your plan is off, or you don't have superior players, it might dip a little below. Either way, though, you give yourself a better chance of winning by focusing on the way you play (whichever way that is - it might be possession, it might be attacking, it might be defensive; it might be the same formation and shape, or it might be a different one each game to combat the opposition - it doesn't matter what your "game" is, as long as you focus on executing it).

Today, and last week, we seemed to focus more on getting the result, and our final ball became sloppy, and our shape narrow, and our execution poor. Before, when we were scoring regularly, we would be focused on our possession game, because it was new and the players had to. As a result, we could take teams apart from the lower half of the table, because we had the superior players, principles, and shape. As long as we go into a game chasing the win, we will abandon the things that make us good. This is something that both management and players would be culpable for. It is counterintuitive, but that that is how things are. It's the reason why , Rafa, Mourinho and Ferguson have been so successful - they focus on what they can control, and making sure their players stick to the principles. If you want to see a good example of it, there is a Chelsea documentary from Mourinho's first season where they are preparing for the game against Bolton that would win them the league. He is very adamant at the end about not focusing on winning. He says "there is no pressure to win. I can't ask you to do that. But we must not lose". The end result from the players is that they have no pressure on them to do anything more than play their own game and trust it to get the result. This is something that both the players and the manager should take heed of, although it's hard to tell without being in the team-talks what is being said and who is emphasising what aspect.

[Hinesy]

That's why I want you to stay on here.

[Vulmea]

What I will say will be hugely disagreed with, but it's my practical experience from over a decade of building teams and developing players, saving teams from relegation and winning trophies. I'm not giving an opinion, I'm making an observation based on practical experience -

When you go into games focusing on "winning" them, you end up with performances like that one - stilted, rushed, forced, high intensity but low-intelligence; random, sloppy, and lacking in real tempo or rhythm. In those games, we seem to have had the mentality of "we must win".

When you go into games focusing on "playing your football" (whatever your "football" is composed of), you will end up winning more, because you will make better decisions, better use of space, better use of the principles of play, play with the right tempo, the right energy, and the right composure on the ball. And so your plan, if it is superior, should lead to a win, at least 50% of the time (standard across all team sports). If you have a superior plan and superior players, you might skew that standard a little past 50%. If your plan is off, or you don't have superior players, it might dip a little below. Either way, though, you give yourself a better chance of winning by focusing on the way you play (whichever way that is - it might be possession, it might be attacking, it might be defensive; it might be the same formation and shape, or it might be a different one each game to combat the opposition - it doesn't matter what your "game" is, as long as you focus on executing it).

Today, and last week, we seemed to focus more on getting the result, and our final ball became sloppy, and our shape narrow, and our execution poor. Before, when we were scoring regularly, we would be focused on our possession game, because it was new and the players had to. As a result, we could take teams apart from the lower half of the table, because we had the superior players, principles, and shape. As long as we go into a game chasing the win, we will abandon the things that make us good. This is something that both management and players would be culpable for. It is counterintuitive, but that that is how things are. It's the reason why , Rafa, Mourinho and Ferguson have been so successful - they focus on what they can control, and making sure their players stick to the principles. If you want to see a good example of it, there is a Chelsea documentary from Mourinho's first season where they are preparing for the game against Bolton that would win them the league. He is very adamant at the end about not focusing on winning. He says "there is no pressure to win. I can't ask you to do that. But we must not lose". The end result from the players is that they have no pressure on them to do anything more than play their own game and trust it to get the result. This is something that both the players and the manager should take heed of, although it's hard to tell without being in the team-talks what is being said and who is emphasising what aspect.

i thought I'd disagree with this but I think its partly right and yet its only part of the story (isn't it always) - there was something lacking both last week and this - I didn't think it was a 'must win' attitude but rather a can we win attitude - doubt uncertainty, its one of those days' a lack of belief in what we are doing will lead to the win

it cuts across the crowd and the players - the crowd is nervous , jittery, lacks patience because it does not have enough belief in what we are doing will give us the results - the focus used to be do the right things and we will win, the result will come - it was a surprise when it didn't and you'd grudgingly accept it wasn't our day now we appear to believe its not our day after we miss  the first chance

sure we had games when we played too fast, too eager even back under shanks but they were infrequent , we often corrected them mid game - at the moment  a cloud of doubt seems to descend around the place and the team after very little time maybe a consequence of 20 years without a title, maybe of not having such good players

it was another game when you thought, just put one in, start to believe in yourselves and again they failed to deliver - its about half a dozen times now when we could have grown as a team, when we could have created some momemtum as a unit

the team needs something else - not just the drop of a ball but an influence within the team that gives us the belief - a Vasovic style of player maybe if Rodgers believes thats Williams so be it

[PhaseOfPlay]

i thought I'd disagree with this but I think its partly right and yet its only part of the story (isn't it always) - there was something lacking both last week and this - I didn't think it was a 'must win' attitude but rather a can we win attitude - doubt uncertainty, its one of those days' a lack of belief in what we are doing will lead to the win

it cuts across the crowd and the players - the crowd is nervous , jittery, lacks patience because it does not have enough belief in what we are doing will give us the results - the focus used to be do the right things and we will win, the result will come - it was a surprise when it didn't and you'd grudgingly accept it wasn't our day now we appear to believe its not our day after we miss  the first chance

sure we had games when we played too fast, too eager even back under shanks but they were infrequent , we often corrected them mid game - at the moment  a cloud of doubt seems to descend around the place and the team after very little time maybe a consequence of 20 years without a title, maybe of not having such good players

it was another game when you thought, just put one in, start to believe in yourselves and again they failed to deliver - its about half a dozen times now when we could have grown as a team, when we could have created some momemtum as a unit

the team needs something else - not just the drop of a ball but an influence within the team that gives us the belief - a Vasovic style of player maybe if Rodgers believes thats Williams so be it

A) That sounds about right - maybe we need our Vasovic/Cantona/Vieira to make it gel together?

B) Where have you been?

[Vulmea]

A) That sounds about right - maybe we need our Vasovic/Cantona/Vieira to make it gel together?

B) Where have you been?

been in the good auld US of A - maybe it taught me something about 'sports' certainly taught me a lot about  commercialisation

[Hinesy]

bump

[Red Genius]

Whilst i appreciate the point PoP is making, i don't agree.

Its about mentality, but his point is focused on ours and not the oppositions so it's not in context. Reading as a club, a manager and as players had far more to gain from that game than we did, and that mentality showed. They were more resolute and focused on doing their job.

We weren't going out there forgetting our game plan, the execution was of a poorer standard because the opportunity of reward is less with little to play for now.

The lads required a rocket up their arse prior to the game and then further at half time, it clearly if attempted, did not have the desired effect.

[007.lankyguy]

One of the most disappointing games of the season for me for the reason that we were clearly a lot better team than them and should have won comfortably.

It was actually quite an interesting game tactically. We started in a 4-2-3-1 although our shape was quite mobile when we had the ball and our front four were narrow. Reading were playing a 4-4-2 defensive block but their forwards were pressing high and leaving space for Gerrard to switch play and use the quality of his passing to penetrate in the final third. Henderson was dropping in becoming a third midfielder at points and Suarez, Coutinho and Sturridge were using their pace and mobility between the lines to combine in that area to penetrate Reading's defence. We dominated possession and found it easy to cut them open. It helped that they couldn't really afford to sit back too deep because they needed a win as well so we also had plenty of transition opportunities for our front four to use their pace and mobility, particularly because Reading kept giving the ball away in defence. We were even defending with seven players quite often (along with Reina) and leaving Coutinho, Sturridge and Suarez up for counter opportunities. It was so clear we were a superior team to them.

Reading themselves were targeting the wide areas and trying to get crosses into the box (as I pointed out before the game, they have the second most amount of crosses per game in the league, even though they have on average the least amount of possession). They were trying to get the ball into the wide areas every time they went forward - they'd often switch play to the full backs to then play down the line to the wingers or play it behind into the channels. It's easy to see why they're bottom; they don't try and play penetrating passes through the lines or even play lots of long balls to put pressure on you. They always look for the wide areas and then try to get crosses in to their players in the middle, which might be part of the reason we started with two holders to give us that lateral covering to help the full backs in the wide areas.

The biggest disappointment for me, which PhaseOfPlay has alluded to, was that we were too often guilty of rushing it and trying to force things to happen. You could see in the second half, the play was becoming sloppy. We were giving the ball away poorly, we were making silly mistakes instead of retaining possession and trying to sustain pressure. I don't think it can be underestimated how important sustaining pressure is. You don't want to be forcing things, being sloppy and then allowing counter attack opportunities (which we were doing more in the second half). There was a lack of game intelligence to me. We didn't need to get frustrated (which I thought some of the players looked even early on in the second half). Our mobility and quality was cutting them open and what's more was they couldn't sit back in a compact fashion and get everyone behind the ball in the final third because they needed to get the win as well. Ultimately I guess the frustration and 'forcing it' element was shown in the finishing.

[Mutton Geoff]

You know that word nobody likes to utter comes into it , LUCK, we battered them mind you Pepe still saved two great chances for them, I will never understand the thinking behind Henderson off for Downing but hell Rodgers gets paid to make those decisions, even when their keeper wasnt coming out with brilliant saves , the Reading lads where literary throwing themselves in front of the shots they were playing for their lives and it showed.

People say Sturridge had a good game but I have a small irk about him , Stevie , Luis and Philip move the ball around at rapid speed but I noticed Sturridge slows this down he seems to need to think , where they play on instinct and it slowed down the moves at times. Not always but enough times for my old eyes to notice it.

[elpistolero7]

What I will say will be hugely disagreed with, but it's my practical experience from over a decade of building teams and developing players, saving teams from relegation and winning trophies. I'm not giving an opinion, I'm making an observation based on practical experience -

When you go into games focusing on "winning" them, you end up with performances like that one - stilted, rushed, forced, high intensity but low-intelligence; random, sloppy, and lacking in real tempo or rhythm. In those games, we seem to have had the mentality of "we must win".

When you go into games focusing on "playing your football" (whatever your "football" is composed of), you will end up winning more, because you will make better decisions, better use of space, better use of the principles of play, play with the right tempo, the right energy, and the right composure on the ball. And so your plan, if it is superior, should lead to a win, at least 50% of the time (standard across all team sports). If you have a superior plan and superior players, you might skew that standard a little past 50%. If your plan is off, or you don't have superior players, it might dip a little below. Either way, though, you give yourself a better chance of winning by focusing on the way you play (whichever way that is - it might be possession, it might be attacking, it might be defensive; it might be the same formation and shape, or it might be a different one each game to combat the opposition - it doesn't matter what your "game" is, as long as you focus on executing it).

Today, and last week, we seemed to focus more on getting the result, and our final ball became sloppy, and our shape narrow, and our execution poor. Before, when we were scoring regularly, we would be focused on our possession game, because it was new and the players had to. As a result, we could take teams apart from the lower half of the table, because we had the superior players, principles, and shape. As long as we go into a game chasing the win, we will abandon the things that make us good. This is something that both management and players would be culpable for. It is counterintuitive, but that that is how things are. It's the reason why , Rafa, Mourinho and Ferguson have been so successful - they focus on what they can control, and making sure their players stick to the principles. If you want to see a good example of it, there is a Chelsea documentary from Mourinho's first season where they are preparing for the game against Bolton that would win them the league. He is very adamant at the end about not focusing on winning. He says "there is no pressure to win. I can't ask you to do that. But we must not lose". The end result from the players is that they have no pressure on them to do anything more than play their own game and trust it to get the result. This is something that both the players and the manager should take heed of, although it's hard to tell without being in the team-talks what is being said and who is emphasising what aspect.

Absolutely brilliant post once again, really puts things into perspective. The part in bold is extremely interesting, and it definitely seems like it was the case this weekend with us. The pressure of getting a win can maybe lead to hastier decisions in the final third and times not the best passes/rushed finishes.
I think the whole squad needs to learn how to deal with expectation and the 'must win' desire/need there is for certain games and still go out there, not let the pressure get to them and play their natural stuff. Its something United have done amazingly under Ferguson year after year. There's a must win attitude in every game, huge expectation, but its managed so well by the players and the manager. They go out, conduct their business, week in week out. Its quite remarkable. 

[Vulmea]

Absolutely brilliant post once again, really puts things into perspective. The part in bold is extremely interesting, and it definitely seems like it was the case this weekend with us. The pressure of getting a win can maybe lead to hastier decisions in the final third and times not the best passes/rushed finishes.
I think the whole squad needs to learn how to deal with expectation and the 'must win' desire/need there is for certain games and still go out there, not let the pressure get to them and play their natural stuff. Its something United have done amazingly under Ferguson year after year. There's a must win attitude in every game, huge expectation, but its managed so well by the players and the manager. They go out, conduct their business, week in week out. Its quite remarkable. 

Thats the difference between expecting to win and having to win. Chelsea had it for a short time and Arsenal too, Liverpool did 20 years ago.

In part it comes from having good players, its fed by results but primarily its about focus and belief in what you are doing.

[Hinesy]

I find Mancini's comments about teams playing Utd having fear, or at least having an expectation that they will lose interesting.
The This Is Anfield sign used to be there to strike fear into teams but latterly it might have the opposite. Teams playing at Anfield probably now think that they're at a famous club's ground with nothing to fear so might as well have a go.

I think most managers know what Rodgers' philosophy is and those lower league teams will press high and quickly at the back knowing we now like to play it from the goalie out. In a way its good that they have to adapt to our style, we're no longer changing to suit other teams, but in another way we have created a set of expectations and presumptions, and sadly we're a bit away from that of Utd's at the moment.

Gerrard and Suarez still cause fear by being on the pitch, but I'm not sure where else we create a sense of something that is built on reputation.

[steveeastend]

I was pretty surprised on the performance, not in a good way, as I honestly did expect better. To me, we did look similar to the way we played under different manager so far and I think it´s time to seriously question why this could happen again. We had all good reasons during the last couple of years to deflact the blame from the players but even if you consider the squad far from being on the same level compared to City, ManU, Chelsea or even Arsenal there are just too many of "those" performances happening to ignore them.

"Those" performances would typically show a lack of effort for the first 60 minutes, chaotic organsation on the pitch, Gerrard trying to be involved in the build up play, the killer pass and the finishing at the same time, Enrique looking like he had to play on a sunny afternoon five-aside game with completely fresh players, same with Johnson, Carra dragging the entire defensive line back to the box although the second/third ball was far from being killed, our attacking players looking as they played together for the first time for a year, a massive gap in center midfield with Lucas looking like a youth player hopelessly trying to winning back the ball. It was Reading away, not ManU.

Sorry for putting it that drastic but performances like that lack professionalism all over the place. Maybe it´s because we try to avoid a european starting place, maybe it´s the players not giving a shite on Rodgers tactical vision, maybe it´s our key player forcing Rodgers for a different, direct, more ManU kind of play or maybe that´s just too many scary thoughts from my part. But considering the performances of the last four seasons, the second half/last third I think those are valid questions to ask.

Instead, the players should go out and try to win a game of football first and foremost. They should follow a clear game plan and not try to win it on their own, games like yesterday had really nothing in it, nothing what I would expect from a professional display from a club like Liverpool with the expection of those last 15 minutes of kick and rush.

And just one last word on the entire Carra story and I know that a lot of people don´t wanna hear about but thas has become beyond a healthy appreciation of a club legend. It´s not about what a player has done in the past, it´s not about what he stands for the club or how much he showed loyality and effort in his career so far in order to get a starting place in the first eleven. That´s in the past, it maybe harsh but that´s football. All this should secure him a place in the list of great LFC legends so far, this and his effort and constant workrate for years and it for sure will. But I wonder if people seriously think that his constant dragging back of the defending line, which has been part of our game for the last two season whenever he played just because of his age, which is just a natural and normal thing to do, doesn´t have a very negative impact on our football? How you wanna dominate teams then?  And if people really think it wouldn´t make much more sense to play the ones which are supposed to be our future just in order to make the squad more used to a flexible, narrow, passing game? Or did we gave up on this already?

The last couple of games would give an indication of that but people should remember that everytime we played that way, pushing up, making it narrow and try to dominate with quick passing while waiting for the best opportunity to score, either under Kenny right after he came in, or under Rodgers in those boring "Norwich away" games f.e., we won more often than not, cause playing a direct, strechted all over the pitch way just doesn´t work in modern football.

I believe in Rodgers, but he has to believe in himself first. And the people surrounding him.Otherwise we will end up the same way as the seasons before. Where are those decisions which made so much sense in order to play more modern game? Enrique in attack f.e.? Now everyone plays in their favourite position and you just have to look how they rest on their laurels although there are none to rest on. Big questions should be asked on the players in summer, that´s for sure and it will depend on Rodgers and the owners giving him the backing every manager desperately needs with this bunch of players.

[Gnurglan]

Questions:

What is it do you think that causes us to play like this against lower teams such as Reading, West Ham, West Brom, etc etc?

That to be fair is the only real question I have here. There are some minor points: Sturridge: was he fit? Do we need better fitness to allow mass pouring forward of our team enabling the strikers to finish, or are we a team that still is missing a vital key? But basically, why do you think we've done this all season?

Thought we did everything but score. Not too worried about the display, just disappointed we couldn't score and of course disappointed we didn't win. When the keeper makes saves like those from Gerrard's and Suarez' shots, you won't score. It's like when Dudek saved that double chance from Shevchenko. I'm actually quite relaxed about the goalscoring. We have scored plenty this season and if we keep creating those chances, we'll win lots of games. Deja vu from last season? Not really, I think we're better going forward this year.

Yes, I think we're missing some pieces. Not worried about Sturridge. I'm more concerned with Johnson. What has happened to him? And why haven't we tried someone else at RB? A bit of rotation would be good there. It's not about selling him, it's about trying something different when he's having a (long) dip in form.

[royhendo]

Brilliant stuff in here folks.

[Vulmea]

I was pretty surprised on the performance, not in a good way, as I honestly did expect better. To me, we did look similar to the way we played under different manager so far and I think it´s time to seriously question why this could happen again. We had all good reasons during the last couple of years to deflact the blame from the players but even if you consider the squad far from being on the same level compared to City, ManU, Chelsea or even Arsenal there are just too many of "those" performances happening to ignore them.

"Those" performances would typically show a lack of effort for the first 60 minutes, chaotic organsation on the pitch, Gerrard trying to be involved in the build up play, the killer pass and the finishing at the same time, Enrique looking like he had to play on a sunny afternoon five-aside game with completely fresh players, same with Johnson, Carra dragging the entire defensive line back to the box although the second/third ball was far from being killed, our attacking players looking as they played together for the first time for a year, a massive gap in center midfield with Lucas looking like a youth player hopelessly trying to winning back the ball. It was Reading away, not ManU.

Sorry for putting it that drastic but performances like that lack professionalism all over the place. Maybe it´s because we try to avoid a european starting place, maybe it´s the players not giving a shite on Rodgers tactical vision, maybe it´s our key player forcing Rodgers for a different, direct, more ManU kind of play or maybe that´s just too many scary thoughts from my part. But considering the performances of the last four season in the second half of the season those are valid fears though.

But the players should go out and try to win a game of football first and foremost. They should follow a clear game plan and not try to win it on their own, games like yesterday had really nothing of this in it with the expection of those last 15 minutes of kick and rush.

And just one last word on the entire Carra story and I know that a lot of people don´t wanna hear about but thas has become beyond a healthy appreciation of a club legend. It´s not about what a player done in the past, it´s not about what he stands for the club or how much he showed loyality and effort in his career for getting a starting place in the first eleven. That´s should be secure him a place in the list of great LFC legends so far, this and his effort and constant workrate for years. But I wonder if people seriously think that his constant dragging back of the defending line, which has been part of our game for the last two season whenever he played just because of his age, which is just a natural and normal thing to do, doesn´t have a very negative impact on our football? How you wanna dominate teams then, Reading, Southampton?  And if people really think it wouldn´t make much more sense to play the ones which are supposed to be our future just in order to make the squad more used to a flexible, narrow, passing game? Or did we gave up on this already?

The last couple of games would give an indication of that but people should remember that everytime we played that way, pushing up, making it narrow and try to dominate with quick passing while waiting for the best opportunity to score, either under Kenny right after he came in, or under Rodgers in those boring "Norwich away" games f.e., we won more often than not, cause playing a direct, strechted all over the pitch way just doesn´t work in modern football.

I believe in Rodgers, but he has to believe in himself first. And the people surrounding him. Otherwise we will end up the same way as the seasons before. Big questions should be asked on the players in summer, that´s for sure and it will depend on Rodgers and the owners giving him the backing every manager desperately needs with this bunch of players.

the Carra situation I think relates more to communication and organisation than dropping an extra 5 yards - many thought Skrtel and Agger would be lacking on that side but could adapt yet BR's system seems to have made any potential problem worse - for some reason Skrtel has gone from being our player of the season to being benched in favour of a 35 year old with two months left on his career  - this isn't down to Carra's cult or legendary status, BR was happy to drop him at the start of the season - we have generally looked more solid with him in the side - he's played better this season than last - granted we are still unable to cope in the air and our line is deep but we look more solid in general play and Skrtel was droppping deep himself  - I presume the solidity is down to Carra's ability to organise but who knows - we have been exposed through the centre so many times this season maybe it impacted Skrtels confidence he does seem to be the type of player that particularly suffers  - but the talk of Zenit appeared to finish him off completely - the BR style of play appears to demand a more intelligent player - Carra for his many faults is an excellent reader of the game and a good organiser Skrtel does not excel in either of those - if the game is about partnerships then maybe thats what Agger needs alongside him to maintain his concentration - there's no argument we need to improve at centre back next season but we need a good in the air, fast, organiser and communicator who can read the game exceptionally well - not many of them beauties about. We'll also need somebody to cover for Agger given his injury record  i.e. who's very capable on the ball - they aren't two a penny either. Provide a  solid base back there and the worlds our crustacean.

[keyo]

do we have enough confidence in our game to trust ourselves to play our game, play our roles and let the result take care of itself?

mourinho instilled a discipline and clarity around chelsea that enabled their success, enabled their players to focus on their role because the plan was clear, they had the quality and they knew their job

we do not have the clarity, yet, in my opinion.....or the quality...therefore changing focus from 'trying to win' to 'trying to carry out the plan' is not so easy, it requires increased quality, increased clarity, development and implementation of the plan, leading to greater confidence and trust...trust is more easily lost than built (look at benitez' last season for evidence of that)

[steveeastend]

the Carra situation I think relates more to communication and organisation than dropping an extra 5 yards - many thought Skrtel and Agger would be lacking on that side but could adapt yet BR's system seems to have made any potential problem worse - for some reason Skrtel has gone from being our player of the season to being benched in favour of a 35 year old with two months left on his career  - this isn't down to Carra's cult or legendary status, BR was happy to drop him at the start of the season - we have generally looked more solid with him in the side - he's played better this season than last - granted we are still unable to cope in the air and our line is deep but we look more solid in general play and Skrtel was droppping deep himself  - I presume the solidity is down to Carra's ability to organise but who knows - we have been exposed through the centre so many times this season maybe it impacted Skrtels confidence he does seem to be the type of player that particularly suffers  - but the talk of Zenit appeared to finish him off completely - the BR style of play appears to demand a more intelligent player - Carra for his many faults is an excellent reader of the game and a good organiser Skrtel does not excel in either of those - if the game is about partnerships then maybe thats what Agger needs alongside him to maintain his concentration - there's no argument we need to improve at centre back next season but we need a good in the air, fast, organiser and communicator who can read the game exceptionally well - not many of them beauties about. We'll also need somebody to cover for Agger given his injury record  i.e. who's very capable on the ball - they aren't two a penny either. Provide a  solid base back there and the worlds our crustacean.

But those extra 5 yards are crucial! I don´t wanna go into this too much as it´s the Reading round table but to me this organisation/communication argument is just a myth as our winning/game ratio during the last couple of seasons with Carra in the defending line is way worse compared to Agger and Skrtel. But even if you put that aside I cannot see the benefit of the things you listed as it happens on the expense of the entire tatical set up Rodgers tried to implement at the beginning of the season. We gave up on that.

In addition we just have too many different types of players in our first eleven although Rodgers showed in some games that there IS a way to make us look more consistent, even with young players in the team. Coutinho, Suarez, Gerrard and normally Lucas and Agger know what to do before they receive the ball, Johnson, Sturridge, Downing, Henderson and Enrique have to think first which is just too time consuming for both, direct play and a quick passing game.

But overall I am more dissappointed with the effort and discipline, in order to work properly for the team, of the players, one of "those" games again which cost us having a go for 4th three seasons in a row. I thought those days are gone but they are not and it seems as everybody on the pitch is doing their own thing again. I am not Downings biggest fan but the way he was overlooked in those counters (against Reading!!) and how he tried to force it  as a reaction whenever he got the ball is just one of a number of examples of us not playing as a team.

[Wullie160975]

...our winning/game ratio during the last couple of seasons with Carra in the defending line is way worse compared to Agger and Skrtel...

But what about this season? I'm sure I remember a commentator on Saturday saying something like 61% win with Carra, 14% without or something ridiculous like that (don't have time to check it out at the moment).

[spider-neil]

Thought we did everything but score. Not too worried about the display, just disappointed we couldn't score and of course disappointed we didn't win. When the keeper makes saves like those from Gerrard's and Suarez' shots, you won't score. It's like when Dudek saved that double chance from Shevchenko. I'm actually quite relaxed about the goalscoring. We have scored plenty this season and if we keep creating those chances, we'll win lots of games. Deja vu from last season? Not really, I think we're better going forward this year.

Yes, I think we're missing some pieces. Not worried about Sturridge. I'm more concerned with Johnson. What has happened to him? And why haven't we tried someone else at RB? A bit of rotation would be good there. It's not about selling him, it's about trying something different when he's having a (long) dip in form.

Johnson must be tired. Played most of our games, and the amount of running to get up and down the pitch must be huge. Given our lack of options we can't really rotate him.

[wah00ey]

I find Mancini's comments about teams playing Utd having fear, or at least having an expectation that they will lose interesting.
The This Is Anfield sign used to be there to strike fear into teams but latterly it might have the opposite. Teams playing at Anfield probably now think that they're at a famous club's ground with nothing to fear so might as well have a go.

I've thought this for a long time - we no longer strike fear into the opposition in any way with the exception of some of the bigger European nights and that's a function of the crowd as opposed to the team.

This is a fairly average United team on a player for player basis but put them together as a team and they are used to winning, just like we used to be.

At the game on Saturday we played OK and their keeper had a stormer as we know.  However, we still have no plan B, no way of changing things from the bench and I'd actually argue we were worse once Downing came on for Hendo.  Sturridge's body language worries me at times, again he didn't run for a couple of passes it looked like he might make so I'd question his fitness.  Lucas offers us nothing going forward which is an area of his game he needs to work on as he does find himself in advanced positions at times even though that's not his main role.

Other than Suarez and Coutinho, the movement off the ball was almost non-existent and the lack of urgency at times was frightening.

[El Lobo]

I've thought this for a long time - we no longer strike fear into the opposition in any way with the exception of some of the bigger European nights and that's a function of the crowd as opposed to the team.

This is a fairly average United team on a player for player basis but put them together as a team and they are used to winning, just like we used to be.

At the game on Saturday we played OK and their keeper had a stormer as we know.  However, we still have no plan B, no way of changing things from the bench and I'd actually argue we were worse once Downing came on for Hendo.  Sturridge's body language worries me at times, again he didn't run for a couple of passes it looked like he might make so I'd question his fitness.  Lucas offers us nothing going forward which is an area of his game he needs to work on as he does find himself in advanced positions at times even though that's not his main role.

Other than Suarez and Coutinho, the movement off the ball was almost non-existent and the lack of urgency at times was frightening.

If anything we were too urgent.

No way you can say there was no movement either. The actual performance was pretty good, on another we known one in and the floodgates open as they have done.

Feast or famine is very apt for us this season.

[wah00ey]

If anything we were too urgent.

No way you can say there was no movement either. The actual performance was pretty good, on another we known one in and the floodgates open as they have done.

Feast or famine is very apt for us this season.

We must have been watching different games ;-)  Out of interest, were you at the game?  I wasn't the only one screaming for the players to move.  In relation to urgency, your point can be argued in front of goal but the midfield and defence really were lacking in urgency.

[Gnurglan]

Johnson must be tired. Played most of our games, and the amount of running to get up and down the pitch must be huge. Given our lack of options we can't really rotate him.

How about using Wisdom?

[Quaid]

I totally understand where you're coming from, and I think with regards to the West Ham game this is spot on, but not the Reading match. We clearly battered them, and it was a combination of luck and an outstanding performance from their no.2 goalkeeper which earned Reading a point. That's not to say we didn't batter West Ham, because we dominated that match as well and should have taken 3 points. But for me there are clear differences when approaching these two fixtures, and therefore the mentality that is required from the players on each match day differs.

West Ham is a 'Big Sam' team, and is thus a very physical and very hard team to break down. Having only conceded 45 goals so far this season (only 5 more than Liverpool and Spurs) they can be considered one of the more defensively sound teams in the league. All managers argue that they NEVER set out for a draw, but always to win and get 3 points, but if there was ever a manager who would set up his team to do nothing but gain a point (even if all 3 were there for the taking!) it's Big Sam. Similar to how Mourinho approached Big Sam's Bolton back in 2004/2005, the West Ham match should perhaps have been a game where we focus on just playing our football and sticking to our philosophy, and hoping that we would take one of our many opportunities which we knew we would create. The 'Big Sam' game plan is to frustrate the opposition through physicality and force, whilst placing 10 hard working players behind the ball leaving one attacking outlet up top, but teams with true quality will eventually find a way through. Patience is a virtue, and one we must master if we are to successfully adopt Rodgers philosophy and consistently take 3 points against teams who choose to 'park the bus'.

Reading is slightly different. Statistically the worst team in the league from a defensive perspective having conceded 63 goals in 33 games, no-one could be blamed for thinking this was going to be a comfortable away victory. I'm sure Rodgers would have drummed this into the players, but maybe more form the view point of 'IF' we play our football, and stick to our game plan, goals and the inevitable 3 points will follow. Surely when approaching this kind of game though, everyone involved knows countless chances are going to be created, not just through the quality of our own play, but through the defensive fragility and lack of quality in the opposition back line. The players had every right in thinking they would win this game comfortably. We created plenty of chances against Reading and on another day, this would have been the comfortable away victory so many had predicted pre kick-off. Reading, as expected, also gifted Sturridge the ball during the 1st half through sloppy defensive play. Sturridge ran towards goal and played in Suarez whose shot on target was subsequently saved by McCarthy. Suarez made a brilliant run across the centre halves, dragging them across with him in the process. This kind of movement that Suarez possesses often manufactures space for supporting team mates to exploit, rather than just create space for him to receive the ball. Of course on another day Suarez would have buried that chance, but perhaps Sturridge would have been better to feed the ball through to Coutinho who was in acres of space on the left and would have had a 1 on 1 from 8-10 yards out. One of our best chances to score (second only behind the Suarez chip finish which was cleared off the line, produced from our best move of the match) could have come from a Reading error had Sturridge played the ball through to Coutinho. Hindsight is a wonderful thing however, so can’t be too critical of his decision. But still, we should have got 3 points from the game no matter how well we played. A match like this away from home, with no pressure from the crowd, we should have been focused on getting 3 points.

Going into every game just focused on getting a result will inevitably lead to unnecessary pressure for the players, something which over the course of a season could have serious implications on individual player confidence and overall team moral. But there’s a time and a place where a manager should be able to turn round to his players and say ‘Right, we need these 3 points. I don’t care how you do it, just get the 3 points’, in particular during a half-time team talk. Hate to say it but Fergie has mastered the art of instilling pressure onto his teams at just the right times, and they always seem to produce the 3 points when it matters most. That for me is what we’re lacking at the moment, but there’s no reason why Brendan can’t utilise stress and pressure to his advantage. Moderate amounts of stress and pressure can be a good thing, and I for one know that I produce my best work in life when I'm under a lot of stress and pressure, as long as it isn't at excessive levels.

[GrkStav]

Johnson must be tired. Played most of our games, and the amount of running to get up and down the pitch must be huge. Given our lack of options we can't really rotate him.

Is Wisdom not available? Is that why he hasn't even been on the bench for us? We've had no fullbacks on the bench available in the last two games.

[GrkStav]

I've thought this for a long time - we no longer strike fear into the opposition in any way with the exception of some of the bigger European nights and that's a function of the crowd as opposed to the team.

This is a fairly average United team on a player for player basis but put them together as a team and they are used to winning, just like we used to be.

At the game on Saturday we played OK and their keeper had a stormer as we know.  However, we still have no plan B, no way of changing things from the bench and I'd actually argue we were worse once Downing came on for Hendo.  Sturridge's body language worries me at times, again he didn't run for a couple of passes it looked like he might make so I'd question his fitness.  Lucas offers us nothing going forward which is an area of his game he needs to work on as he does find himself in advanced positions at times even though that's not his main role.

Other than Suarez and Coutinho, the movement off the ball was almost non-existent and the lack of urgency at times was frightening.

I am sorry, I will be accused of being a "fanboy" of Lucas, but really? Seriously?

You're complaining about Lucas not offering anything going forward? As if HE should also over-commit so we have, effectively Carragher and 1/2 of Agger to defend the counter-attack upon losing possession which our fullbacks have been wont to do all season, or Suarez goes into one of his attempted magical 'trips' and it doesn't come off?

Yeah, let's have the most withdrawn midfielder attempt to add something going forward, as well. It's not enough to have Gerrard doing it.

I am at a loss (somewhat) for words.

[Kicked_Into_Touch]

I am sorry, I will be accused of being a "fanboy" of Lucas, but really? Seriously?

You're complaining about Lucas not offering anything going forward? As if HE should also over-commit so we have, effectively Carragher and 1/2 of Agger to defend the counter-attack upon losing possession which our fullbacks have been wont to do all season, or Suarez goes into one of his attempted magical 'trips' and it doesn't come off?

Yeah, let's have the most withdrawn midfielder attempt to add something going forward, as well. It's not enough to have Gerrard doing it.

I am at a loss (somewhat) for words.

...it really should not need explaining what lucas offers to the attack.

[Vulmea]

But those extra 5 yards are crucial!

Skrtel has been dropping just as badly as Carra this season his confidence is wrecked - he can't read the game as well, the gaps in the defence are more obvious because they dont talk enough to compensate and we/he is being exposed as a consequence - so its not as clear cut as you suggest

with our current set up, no full backs and slow centrebacks without those extra 5 yards we are wide open

 if its not for the reasons BR has said ie comms and organisation what is it? Have BR and Skrtel fallen out, is the lad off to Zenit, has Carra found some incriminating photo's?

[steveeastend]

with our current set up, no full backs and slow centrebacks without those extra 5 yards we are wide open
if its not for the reasons BR has said ie comms and organisation what is it? Have BR and Skrtel fallen out, is the lad off to Zenit, has Carra found some incriminating photo's?

I don´t know really. What I do know is that it doesn´t make sense to drop back while playing three upfront. It opens up a gap in midfield so big that it´s impossible to get control in a game unless scoring very early in a game.

To me, I don´t think we have to drop back and I don´t think that the outcome in terms of winning/ratio is that much different compared to how we play for a couple of weeks now anyway.

It depends where we wanna go, tactically, at the moment, it´s a mixture of two set ups at the same time. In contrast it should be either the one or the other, best with a flexible defending line and the team knowing to adjust when necessary.

The thing is those players are not stupid and the quality is not that bad for winning games against teams like Reading. We should be able to easily outpass and outplay them, instead the team was spread all over the pitch, for that playing kick and rush and not working as a team. There was one week rest and we´ve seen them doing so much better this season already... Very dissappointing and I have no explaination for this.

[Prof]

I'm not sure why you thought you'd be disagreed with.  You are spot on.

Outcome goals (like winning a match or competition) are great for journalists and fans as they provide the results that everyone is measured by at the end of the day, but as a coach, they aren't very good as focussing on them can cause serious problems with motivation, focus and create additional anxiety that isn't necessary.  If it isn't realistic, and you say (for example) that the target is to win every game, what happens when you draw at home to Sunderland in the first match?  You have failed at the first hurdle, so you then set a new target to win every game from this point, which is great until you fail to win again.  It essentially makes the goal pointless, as you can just reset it if you lose or draw. 

Performance goals make better end targets if they are realistic (like achieving certain point totals, scoring a certain numbers of goals, or even having a certain number of shots on target per game etc.). You can have a greater level of control with performance goals, but even those have elements outside of your direct influence.

Process goals are the things we use on a day to day basis when training athletes.  It might be to cover a certain amount of distance on the pitch during the game (this is a very crude one, but it is just an example), achieve a certain number of team passes (I remember reading an interview with Rafa or Pako Ayesteran talking about Pako's role in this during Rafa's first season, and how it was measure of the intensity of play).

The points PoP makes are exactly right.  Focus on the process.  This is why Rodgers says certain things in the interviews after matches.  He is clearly focusing on the process, but getting players to do the same is the challenge.  You can see in the players' body language in the games that they are too outcome oriented.  They try to force play and snatch at chances.  Remember what Rafa said when he subbed Stevie in the closing stages of the derby...

Some players today were playing with too much passion. You must play with passion, but also analyse that we had plenty of possession and needed to use the ball better.

[robgomm]

Totally agree with the principle of PoP's post. Play your game, the rest will follow.

Do we have a problem tactically at the moment? Part of our current problem seems to be that Sturridge, Suarez, Coutinho and Downing don't all fit. Coutinho was wide left moving in field against West Ham, against Reading he was behind the striker at times. Sturridge was ostenibly wide right but he doesn't stay there. Suarez goes where he wants. Only Downing is a tactical lynchpin.

Henderson suffers somewhat, I think we look better centrally with him there yet there's no doubt he's not as fluid as the players ahead of him.

To me, we look better with Suarez OR Sturridge rather than both. Obviously though you want to play both, who wouldn't! It's a tough one for Brendan.

[steveeastend]

He is clearly focusing on the process, but getting players to do the same is the challenge.  You can see in the players' body language in the games that they are too outcome oriented.  They try to force play and snatch at chances.  Remember what Rafa said when he subbed Stevie in the closing stages of the derby...

There wasn´t any passion until the last 20 minutes. PoP is spot on when it comes to analysing the game from the surface but the questions remains why it happened. To explain it with the players being TOO passioned is very flattering for the players. I think, it´s the opposite, the didn´t care for the team, for the tactics and the workrate was not enough for the first 60 minutes. We are WAY to unpredictable in terms of our performances and this normally doesn´t happen when the team is functioning as a group.

[Prof]

There wasn´t any passion until the last 20 minutes. PoP is spot on when it comes to analysing the game from the surface but the questions remains why it happened. To explain it with the players being TOO passioned is very flattering for the players. I think, it´s the opposite, the didn´t care for the team, for the tactics and the workrate was not enough for the first 60 minutes. We are WAY to unpredictable in terms of our performances and this normally doesn´t happen when the team is functioning as a group.

That quote was just an example of a manager recognising that the processes weren't being adhered to.

My point was that we forced things a bit too much.  There was nothing wrong with the workrate, we dominated the game, we lacked clear thought and effective execution when we had the good positions (which we had in abundance).

To say it was a poorly functioning group implies that the group dynamic isn't good.  I haven't seen anything to suggest that.  There are cohesion issues that are expected as they haven't been together that long, but the main issue for me was a lack of composure at the key moments.

[DLF]

My point was that we forced things a bit too much.  There was nothing wrong with the workrate, we dominated the game, we lacked clear thought and effective execution when we had the good positions (which we had in abundance).

Back when Arsenal were good and they had a result like this enlightened commentators would accuse them of trying to score the perfect goal instead of just 'twatting it'.  The kept doing that because that is what they were good at and Wenger knew it would work most of the time.  We don't do that yet, it often takes a goal for us to calm down and then when we do sometimes someone gets a hiding.

We still need more forwards though.  Yes Stuart Downing is doing OK but in his best ever season (?) he scored 6 (5 lg) goals in 48 appearances.  To get top 4 we will probably need 3 forwards on 10+ league goals.  The last time that happened was 08/09 (Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt) and prior to that 91/92 (Barnes, Rush and Beardsley).  I hope I will eat my words but if we still have Downing-like players predominantly in the first team we won't get top 4.  Lovely fella but we need finishers to compete with United, City, Chelsea and Spurs.  They have goalscorers and they will buy more and better in the summer.  At the moment stop Suarez and you stop us.

[MolbyLovesGravlax]

Can we stop blaming Carra for us failing to score. His position on the pitch has nothing to do with attacking players not simply calmly picking a spot the keeper can't get to.

[Johnny Foreigner]

In the two past years the opposition goalies have had a bad tendency of picking up MOTM-awards agains us..

There is an element of bad luck attached to it, but at some stage there would have to be an additional element of the chances we create and the quality of finishing..

If we look at the game vs reading, there is at number of very decent chances, but our strikers are going for the full blast at every occassion and there is no tap-in possibilites as far as I can see.. The chances that suarez and sturridge doesn't convert is not bad luck - thats wrong decision making and poor quality finishing...

If you look at arsenal-norwich, arsenal fail to put away 4 top chances + 1 in the bar + 1 denied penalty before Norwich scores.. Arsenal continues to create chances and make their lucky break on the penalty..  However, their 2-1 goal is a 1-2 which is impossible not to score.. 3-1 is a top quality strike from the 16-yard line from podolske who leave their goalie absolutely no chance..

[Draex]

Mentally fragile - if we don't get that early goal we crumble and start to force the game too much.. Gerrard/Suarez are arguably our 2 best players, yet they are also the ones most at fault for this.. I think as people have already pointed out they need to have faith in the process - I wonder why Rodgers isn't drilling this home? Is his plan being more and more ignored the longer the game goes on without us scoring?

[steveeastend]

Mentally fragile - if we don't get that early goal we crumble and start to force the game too much.. Gerrard/Suarez are arguably our 2 best players, yet they are also the ones most at fault for this.. I think as people have already pointed out they need to have faith in the process - I wonder why Rodgers isn't drilling this home? Is his plan being more and more ignored the longer the game goes on without us scoring?

I am wondering about this as well. What I don´t understand either is this lack of desire to win from the first minute in a lot of games and this has been happening for years now, especially at away games. I had an understanding for that in recent years as there was always so much going on within the club, players knew that they would be going, manager going out, coming in.

But overall if a player doesn´t want to give everything from the first minute in order to win a game against fucking Reading away in our current situation where we wanna get back to top again than he really is probably playing for the wrong club. They should be ashamed for drawing away to a club being rock bottom of the league, no matter the tactics, no matter the manager. Where is the desire to prove that we are better as a team? I always said that a winning mentality comes from quality first but I am talking about the basics here, the basic professionalism when it comes to playing for a club like LFC, it was fucking Reading, bottom of the league with one week rest before...