Topic: From The Times Blog - READ IT

[In the Name of Klopp]

If some our supporters used their energy blaming the true source for our troubles instead blaming our manager - then maybe we would have a chance against the yanks.... sad but true.

.... I reckon TommySmithsLiver is a hermaphrodite and into Lady gaga.

[slickman]

Or some more like Babel, Riera, Keane, Pennant and Gonzalez.  One or the other.

Lets not forgot dossena what a star signing he was left after 1 season! still though finishing 6th while being 2nd the previous season is unacceptable, while playing some of the worst brand of football this season,his position will be reviewed come the end of the season, their are plenty of capable replacement with far more credintials then rafa but are all tied down to contracts, so basically he gets another season as we can't attract anyone else. As a human being he's fantastic nice guy but his performance as manager has been poor finishing below 6th  is pathetic.

[Yorkykopite]

Never understood the complaints about Rafa's record in the transfer market myself. Sure, you can point to some duds, but no more than any other top line manager in England. But it should go without saying that he's enormously strengthened the squad. His cautious use of talent is another thing entirely, but his ability to assemble it should not be a matter of debate. 

[SP]

Lets not forgot dossena what a star signing he was left after 1 season! still though finishing 6th while being 2nd the previous season is unacceptable, while playing some of the worst brand of football this season,his position will be reviewed come the end of the season, their are plenty of capable replacement with far more credintials then rafa but are all tied down to contracts, so basically he gets another season as we can't attract anyone else. As a human being he's fantastic nice guy but his performance as manager has been poor finishing below 6th  is pathetic.

Dossena was bargain basement and we recouped most of the cost. Has the season finished? I must have missed most of April and May.

[Fat Scouser]

Lets not forgot dossena what a star signing he was left after 1 season! still though finishing 6th while being 2nd the previous season is unacceptable, while playing some of the worst brand of football this season,his position will be reviewed come the end of the season, their are plenty of capable replacement with far more credintials then rafa but are all tied down to contracts, so basically he gets another season as we can't attract anyone else. As a human being he's fantastic nice guy but his performance as manager has been poor finishing below 6th  is pathetic.

Just a question. Don't get a cob on or think I'm having a go at you. I'm not. I'm being serious and I'm interested in knowing...
How old are you?
When did you start supporting LFC?
Where are you from?

It's sort of like a survey I'm doing.

[guest]

If some our supporters used their energy blaming the true source for our troubles instead blaming our manager - then maybe we would have a chance against the yanks.... sad but true.

This is what gets me the most. You get lads there standing, stamping and screaming at the owners - some of them want Rafa in, some want him gone. But they're fighting vociferously against one thing that we all should be.

You're either with us or against us now, as far as I'm concerned. It isn't enough saying 'I don't like the Yanks but Rafa blah blah' - sod that for a game of soldiers.

[Jason McG]

How much did Barry cost city?

About £11m I think with wages on a par with Gerrard and above Torres. City were able to pay it all up front too.

[Gromit]

Or some more like Babel, Riera, Keane, Pennant and Gonzalez.  One or the other.

Or maybe another Reina, Alonso, Torres, Agger, Crouch?  None of them were exactly British transfer records either.

In that hole you crawled out of you might have missed big money pissed away elsewhere on the likes of Veron, Beberatov, Djemba-Djemba, Jeffers, Wright, Shevcenko, Kalou, Keane again, Elmander, Deco, Mido, Santa Cruz and god knows who else I've forgotten because they've been crap signings and made no decent impression.

[Garstonite]

Love how Riera has became a 'flop' all of a sudden just because he's turned into a nob head. He's been on the losing side about five times in two years at the club.

[royhendo]

You're either with us or against us now, as far as I'm concerned. It isn't enough saying 'I don't like the Yanks but Rafa blah blah' - sod that for a game of soldiers.

Mate, time will teach you the old Godfather business is true: keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer and all that.

It's worth giving a little ground if it lets you get the bigger picture across.

[exiledintheUSA]

Whoever wrote that blog needs a to run for Prime Minister.

Great read.

[alex.]

It's unrealistic to expect any owner to throw money into a bottomless pit. The problem is the debt the yanks piled on the club. Obviously there's far more to it than that, but that is the root problem from which the others come.

I find it really funny that people will argue from sun up to sun down over 10 million quid concerning the purchase of Johnson, when the yanks claimed that for 3 fucking drawings of the new stadium.

In fact stop them fat kunts flying over for 5 games and we'd have another Johnson.

Spot on

[Jason McG]

their are plenty of capable replacement with far more credintials then rafa but are all tied down to contracts, so basically he gets another season as we can't attract anyone else

Better credintials? I'll ignore the obvious and just ask who and why?

[Gromit]

but his performance as manager has been poor finishing below 6th  is pathetic.

He's made mistakes but...

if your rivals (and I mean this in any sport or team) invest more money in improvements than you, while you stand still at best (or go backwards as selling-to-buy would suggest), it it unreasonable to assume we'd regress? 

This isn't like the Diouf/Diao/Cheyrou situation, they were meant to strengthen the existing team.  Players were not sold to raise money to buy them.  In the last few windows we've seen the likes of Keane, Crouch, Alonso and Arbeloa sold, and only some of that money spent back on that team in Aquilani and Johnson.  Our one signing in the last window was a freebie.  If we were in the financial position to keep the likes of Alonso, Crouch and Arbeloa in the squad  while adding the likes of Aquilani and Johnson we might have some of the stength in depth you see at Man City or Spurs, nevermind United or Chelsea.

[Fat Scouser]

Spot on

You know what mate, that either went right under the radar or was completely ignored by idiots who moan about Rafa shopping in Lidle for players under 10 million quid while the yanks pull stunts like that.

How much does it cost us evertime they fly in?
And what the fuck do they even come to Anfield for?

They know they aren't welcome and they never even spoke to Rafa last time they was here.

But eh, Rafa bought Gonzalez... Off with his head.

[Stussy]

I find it really funny that people will argue from sun up to sun down over 10 million quid concerning the purchase of Johnson, when the yanks claimed that for 3 fucking drawings of the new stadium.

This, to me, is the heart of the matter.

Not just the new stadium though, the eating up of our profits, that should be available for the purchase of our new players, to pay for the loans that they took out to buy us - in effect, so that we could pay them to own us.

This is the obscenity at the heart of our situation that should make every true Red rage and scream.

We are paying for the privelige of their catstrophic, crippling, destructive ownership of us.

[Fat Scouser]

This, to me, is the heart of the matter.

Not just the new stadium though, the eating up of our profits, that should be available for the purchase of our new players, to pay for the loans that they took out to buy us - in effect, so that we could pay them to own us.

This is the obscenity at the heart of our situation that should make every true Red rage and scream.

We are paying for the privelige of their catstrophic, crippling, destructive ownership of us.

Weetabix mate. Weetabix

[rakey_lfc]

Thing that makes me laugh about people critising some of his buys is that EVERY manager don't always buy the right players. Look at every other team in the PL at the minute and you could name players who have flopped after a manager bought them. Yes even the Great Mr. Ferguson has bought badly. Mourinho did it at Chelsea to win the league and Wenger has done it too.

The difference is they were GIVEN money, Rafa has had to weaken areas of the squad to try and strengthen it. In the last 10 years I don't think Fergie has ever had to sell to buy.

[slickman]

Just a question. Don't get a cob on or think I'm having a go at you. I'm not. I'm being serious and I'm interested in knowing...
How old are you?
When did you start supporting LFC?
Where are you from?

It's sort of like a survey I'm doing.

19, Started supporting Right after istanbul 2005! i jumped on the bandwagon.. ! Seriously though you want him to stay thats fine should always be 2 opnions and mine differs but  anyone who has performed poorly in a job for the last 9 months should be questioned he's great at cup football and has done marvellous things for us in that regard, but in the primier league he has been decent ,nobody is expecting us to win the league every year but  we are out of the league title race by November/ December 5 times in the 6 season he has been here ,  i find that a bit embrassing we could at least stay in touching distance till the new year or beyond but we find ourselves lagging behind after just  2 months  , at the beggining of the season i expect the players to come out flying but what are the chances of another slow sluggist start next season? 

[Graham Smith]

I'd normally apologise for repeating myself but not on this occasion:

It's pretty simple and the thing that fans are missing, is it is as simple as 1, 2, 3 - after all the prize money, gate receipts, sponsorship money and TV revenue has come in and the wages and other costs have gone out the Club makes about £20m profit per year.

1. Traditionally that would be used to strengthen the squad.

2. For the last three windows the profit isn't available as it is being used to service debt.

3. The manager has to wheel and deal with what comes in.

It is that simple. Our profit goes on debt and our manager has to wheel and deal.

On a side issue when his wheeling and dealing are reviewed over his time here his spend is about £13m a time with that average reducing each year.

[Yorkykopite]

Mate, time will teach you the old Godfather business is true: keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer and all that.

It's worth giving a little ground if it lets you get the bigger picture across.

Especially if people are going to mangle the facts in order to drum up support for a legitimate cause. The old 'with us or against us' crap shouldn't impress anyone. I mean who the hell is laying down the law here? St Just? Lenin? Besides, having reservations about the coach does not need to dilute a supporter's anger against the capitalist sharks bleeding the club dry.

[liverpoolfan1970]

Never understood the complaints about Rafa's record in the transfer market myself. Sure, you can point to some duds, but no more than any other top line manager in England. But it should go without saying that he's enormously strengthened the squad. His cautious use of talent is another thing entirely, but his ability to assemble it should not be a matter of debate. 

Many fans act like it's so darn easy to do the job.  "Why did Rafa buy Dossena? Babel?  Aquaman?" etc...  This isn't some video game like Football manager or FIFA 2010.  EVERY manager makes mistakes.  How has Kaka worked out for Real this year?  How has Dimitar worked out for ManU?  How did Shevchenko work out for Chelsea? 

The naysayers always point out the duds, but their argument lacks in balance when they fail to point out the success stories, and there are far more successes then failures.  More than half of the players he has sold have been sold for a profit. 

And Fat Scouser really hit the nail on the head.  The two idiot owners spend our club money like it's going out of style, while Rafa is cautious with it and tries to spend big only when he feels the player is truly worth it.  How ANYONE can complain about Rafa's spending and not about the spending of the two owners is beyond me. 

[Fat Scouser]

19, Started supporting Right after istanbul 2005! i jumped on the bandwagon.. ! Seriously though you want him to stay thats fine should always be 2 opnions and mine differs but  anyone who has performed poorly in a job for the last 9 months should be questioned he's great at cup football and has done marvellous things for us in that regard, but in the primier league he has been decent ,nobody is expecting us to win the league every year but  we are out of the league title race by November/ December 5 times in the 6 season he has been here ,  i find that a bit embrassing we could at least stay in touching distance till the new year or beyond but we find ourselves lagging behind after just  2 months  , at the beggining of the season i expect the players to come out flying but what are the chances of another slow sluggist start next season? 

There's one sentence in that which makes perfect sense.
As for the rest of it, I have a suggestion....
Take the cotton wool out of your ears and shove it in your mouth....
Heed a few fellas who've been around the block a bit and know what they're talking about. Who knows... you might just learn something, and stop yourself from turning into an old knobhead as opposed to a kid who just didn't really know any better.

[danny boy the red]

yup its going all going round and around a bit but the facts- fuck it I'm not putting inverted commas around that word anymore- are there for anyone interested, just not many in the media are.

I'ts not that the media is utter bollox in itself just that the state of punditry in England is  so absoultely shocking, it really is. Dean sturridge slaggin off rafa on espn? I saw hasslebank having ago on sky about Rafa's transfer policy. Dya remeber Tim Sherwood's reaction to Torres last minute winner against Portsmouth last year at Fratton Park, he was absolutely fuming.

I dont think they hate liverpool or rafa. I think they dislike rafa and get pissed  of with Liverpool fans constant support-although this is as  Fat Scouse  rightly points out is in decline. Support should never be confused with or become moaning. The problem is most journlists can write, but dont like taking the time to think. So once they start writing about liverpool: the 'zonal marking' 'rotation' 'transfer policy ' stuff jumps into their heads and they just jot it down with out a moment's thought. Cos to actually consider those things might take up more time and mean missing or delaying a deadline or blog. After that game at fratton park last year the tone amongst most of the journos was the same, anger at our percieved jammyness with a winner deep into stoppage time. The truth was most of them had to adjust their match reports and they fuckin hated doin it.


On the cotinent they usually have a couple of journalists in the studio, in Italy anyway, and tradtionally good journalists will have good contacts with in the club and be able to place whats happening on the pitch in a greater context, with some attention to detail.This is worth  a look, its  is a decent link to well respected french journalist attacking the english press for the reporting on Ramsey's inury.
http://www.sport.co.uk/news/Football/35100/Ramsey_reaction_Written_press_deafened_by_shrill_chorus_of_ex-players.aspx

Now there is fuck all chance of this happening on sky sports, who prefer the saturday night  tv show presenter approach.  I mean honestly, Redknapp banging on about  Alonso's slick interplay with Gerrard and Torres at old trafford in the 4-1 last year, jesus christ.

Anyway, we'll be back lads.We are Liverpool!

 

[danny boy the red]

oh yeah, who is the most surprising footballer in the premiership?...ohreallyo...  : D

[Graham Smith]

Especially if people are going to mangle the facts in order to drum up support for a legitimate cause. The old 'with us or against us' crap shouldn't impress anyone. I mean who the hell is laying down the law here? St Just? Lenin? Besides, having reservations about the coach does not need to dilute a supporter's anger against the capitalist sharks bleeding the club dry.

Definitely not - the distinction between the footballing decisions of the manager should be entirely separate from the conditions under which he has to operate allowing criticism/praise of both.

However when comparing the relative impact on our reduced fortunes between the manager's footballing decisions and what he has had to deal with, in my view the impact is 90% owner related and 10% Lucas/Zonal/Insua/Kuyt/(insert flavour of month criticism here) resulting in our current standing.

[danny boy the red]

anytakers on the last one?

[Yorkykopite]

Many fans act like it's so darn easy to do the job.  "Why did Rafa buy Dossena? Babel?  Aquilani?" etc...  This isn't some video game like Football manager or FIFA 2010.  EVERY manager makes mistakes.  How has Kaka worked out for Real this year?  How has Dimitar worked out for ManU?  How did Shevchenko work out for Chelsea? 

I agree. Those who claim that Rafa only ever buys duds are as barking as those who claim Aquilani only cost us three quid and a bag of crisps really.

[Terry de Niro]

Just remember what's already been said on here.
Rafa is fighting in our corner for the future of OUR club.
So, those wanting him gone should frankly go themselves.

[Fat Scouser]

I'd normally apologise for repeating myself but not on this occasion:

I warned you Graham. You could write it across the sky in mile high bright red letters that turned neon of a night, leave it there permanently, and they'd just say....
"Yeah. But the yanks didn't buy Gonzalez."

[MichaelA]

what are the chances of another slow sluggist start next season? 

Gerrard's legs have gone. And it's all Rafa's fault. 

[rakey_lfc]

Just remember what's already been said on here.
Rafa is fighting in our corner for the future of OUR club.
So, those wanting him gone should frankly go themselves.

Spot on.

I think he's made mistakes (in terms of tactics and subs), everyone makes mistakes. Doesn't mean he should be crucified and sacked for them.

The simple fact is he's not being allowed to do his job properly. He was bringing this club forward until the yanks took over and riddled us with debt.

[Graham Smith]

I warned you Graham. You could write it across the sky in mile high bright red letters that turned neon of a night, leave it there permanently, and they'd just say....
"Yeah. But the yanks didn't buy Gonzalez."

FS, as a Round The Blocker all we can do is try and repeat things time and time again.

[danny boy the red]

nice pic Michael A, your joking about Stevie's legs though?

[Gromit]

I agree. Those who claim that Rafa only ever buys duds are as barking as those who claim Aquilani only cost us three quid and a bag of crisps really.

Is anyone claiming that's all he cost though?  The point is, he's probably one of the few 20m-rated players who we could buy while paying so little up front.  He will eventually cost about 20M, but we found a deal that let us buy at the time (the inference being we're skint and them asking for anymore money upfront would have nuked the deal).

[Bob Loblaw]

For a club whose youth system was archaic to say the least and faltering under the impression that youth team meant the same as local team then Rafa's actions here were a godsend - its now on par with any in the Premier League with a host of top class youngsters sourced from all over the world rather than Kirkby, Ormskirk or Heswall.

Bit pre-mature surely.

Oh and as for your other so called 'facts' (haha where did you get these from - the Star?) Aquilani cost £9m, we were still owed money for Crouch from Portsmouth so got Johnson for considerably less than the £20m reported. Torres cost £18 million. Keane was so good a striker that even Del Boy Redknapp saw him surplus to requirements at Spurs and hes now missing open goals and laughing about it at an embarasingly poor poor Celtic side - a side that wouldnt even compete in the Championship in England! Sells Alonso??? Alonso WANTED to go - and very nearly went to Arsenal too - why dont you read and discover these facts for yourself? Rafa bought him for what? £11m when no-one had heard of him, he was a great player for us and then is sold to the biggest club in the world for £25m. Not a sign of a man who doesnt know what hes doing.

This Aquilani thing is getting absurd. He cost the club £20m, or will end up costing the club £20m. It's the same fucking thing.

Johnson, no matter what Portsmouth owed, he still cost what he cost after do some simple adding and subtracting(£16-17m?). We paid a big sum, on top of what they owed us. But i don't get why people, on either side get upset at the figure. He's a quality player. Maybe at £17m he's a bit overpriced, but then English players tend to be overpriced.

Keane was/is shit, agreed, Rafa bought him.

The rest is spot on though imo.

[guest]

It's not the same thing Bob - read throughout to see why.

[Gromit]

Gerrard's legs have gone. And it's all Rafa's fault. 

Our new kit looks shite

[Fat Scouser]

Especially if people are going to mangle the facts in order to drum up support for a legitimate cause. The old 'with us or against us' crap shouldn't impress anyone. I mean who the hell is laying down the law here? St Just? Lenin? Besides, having reservations about the coach does not need to dilute a supporter's anger against the capitalist sharks bleeding the club dry.

Ah but Yorkie mate, you are ignoring the elephants in the boardroom here.

I don't think anyone should be hung up for questioning Rafa, criticising him or even wanting him out with one proviso... they aren't just spouting media shite.

I think they're wrong, and I think they're pointing fingers in the wrong direction. But as long as they've got a decent argument and only give it because they really think that's in the best interests of the club - fine.

But when it's some knobhead who's never been to a match, regurgitating media driven drivel... wll, no mate. I can't have that and I sincerly believe these people are only topped by H&G in harming the club.

[Yorkykopite]

Definitely not - the distinction between the footballing decisions of the manager should be entirely separate from the conditions under which he has to operate allowing criticism/praise of both.

However when comparing the relative impact on our reduced fortunes between the manager's footballing decisions and what he has had to deal with, in my view the impact is 90% owner related and 10% Lucas/Zonal/Insua/Kuyt/(insert flavour of month criticism here) resulting in our current standing.

I'm glad you said the first bit mate because too many good people are trying to blur the lines.

Personally I don't agree with your breakdown on the second bit. If we don't eradicate the owners from the Club then I can well imagine a situation in the near future where indeed 90 per cent of our footballing fortune is dictated by what is happening off the field. But the story of this season is as much a story about pure footballing failure as it is about the consequences of mercantile greed. Our squad was good enough to win the league this year. We came nowhere near. There were some odd decisions made throughout the season. I don't expect you to debate this because you're a busy bloke with other fish to fry.