Topic: Thread for Sensible Discussion about Klopp

[archie]

What he needs is time.

 

18 months after our closest go at the title for years that manager is gone. Was that enough time?

What if he lost a load of games early on?
That is possible, his sides have lost games of football before.

Rest assured they'll be bad dickheads finished with him within 3 months if that's the case.

Can you plan for 3 or 4 years in modern footy?
Unless you are winning something during that time, I'm not sure that is the case anymore.

[steveeastend]

Their personalities are less similar 

Not in a million years..

I hope Klopp doesn't try to change too much too quickly.

Move Milner to the wing, please.

[leivapool]

Lucas and Skrtel have survived 4 managers so far, with different styles of football. I wouldn't write them off yet. They are probably not the type of players that Klopp would buy, but they are very good which also matters.

Good post. 

[rickardinho1]

Over the last 3 and a bit years, I have never thought that high amount we concede was predominantly down to the personnel in defence, it has always been about how the team has been structured.[/b{

*except Lovren I'm guessing? 

[lionel_messias]

Presumably Klopp will be familiar with the orthodox set up of one defensive FB and one attacking WB, with a wide forward on the FB's side and an inside forward on the WB's side.

Who knows.

What I think he will do before a transfer window is put two midfielders in front of a back FOUR and start the pressing game with that 3 behind a striker.

I think he will partner Lucas/Hendo with Emre Can at least until January and bring stability there. He will try and develop Can, who is seen as one of Germany's biggest prospects. I think Milner will be used as that right side forward player who presses, with Firmino number10 and Coutinho to his left.


The most interesting thing is what happens to Benteke and Sturridge - I really don't see that as a partnership in a Klopp side.

Sensibly if he can get more out of Can, Milner, Firmino, Clyne and Moreno, then we can expect some better results; pretty quickly I would say.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Lucas and Skrtel have survived 4 managers so far, with different styles of football. I wouldn't write them off yet. They are probably not the type of players that Klopp would buy, but they are very good which also matters.

Weird how Skrtel and Lucas having their fourth manager in ~8-years is seen as a compliment to their abilities.

[Smellytrabs]

*except Lovren I'm guessing? 

In all Rodgers time here, Lovren is the only defender we’ve had that I don’t think is good enough to play for Liverpool. Even given that, I don’t think we can lay blame for the high amount of goals conceded at Lovren’s feet.

[lionel_messias]

In all Rodgers time here, Lovren is the only defender we’ve had that I don’t think is good enough to play for Liverpool. Even given that, I don’t think we can lay blame for the high amount of goals conceded at Lovren’s feet.

And if we did he'd probably fall over them anyway.

[spider-neil]

Even if certain players (I frankly dislike) are picked that doesn't automatically mean the manager rates them. The true test is if they stay in the team after a couple of transfer windows or after the manager has implemented his plans.

[Smellytrabs]

Weird how Skrtel and Lucas having their fourth manager in ~8-years is seen as a compliment to their abilities.

Dalglish and Benitez both rated them and had faith in them. Hodgson (Lucas) and Rodgers (Lucas & Skrtel) less so. It will be interesting to see what Klopp thinks.

[spider-neil]

Lovren doing a step over in the middle of the pitch whilst bringing the ball out of defence, has nothing to do with any system.
Lovren fucking about on the edge of his own penalty area unchallenged and then losing the ball, has nothing to do with any system.

He is simply a poor defender.

[spider-neil]

Dalglish and Benitez both rated them and had faith in them. Hodgson (Lucas) and Rodgers (Lucas & Skrtel) less so. It will be interesting to see what Klopp thinks.

To be fair, Kenny had Lucas at his absolute peak. I thought Lucas was frankly phenomenal in the games leading up to (and including the Chelsea) his first big injury. This is coming from someone who thinks Lucas was a bit average before and after the injury.

[Smellytrabs]

Lovren doing a step over in the middle of the pitch whilst bringing the ball out of defence, has nothing to do with any system.
Lovren fucking about on the edge of his own penalty area unchallenged and then losing the ball, has nothing to do with any system.

He is simply a poor defender.

It's a double whammy. A poor player in a poor system.

[plskikme]

Weird how Skrtel and Lucas having their fourth manager in ~8-years is seen as a compliment to their abilities.

I don't know about Skrtel but Lucas is probably the best in our squad at nicking the ball early right when a pass arrives at an opposing players feet in his own half and before he even gets to look up. I'm pretty sure he could excel in gegenpressing given how often he does this on his own (assuming he stays fit and a good run of games).

Skrtel on the other hand has not managed to shake off the habit of dropping as soon as he's in a one on one situation and he'll have to rely on his influence and other attributes to get game time rather than adapting I think.

[Schmidt]

Lovren doing a step over in the middle of the pitch whilst bringing the ball out of defence, has nothing to do with any system.
Lovren fucking about on the edge of his own penalty area unchallenged and then losing the ball, has nothing to do with any system.

He is simply a poor defender.

A lot of that could be down to a lack of instruction, something I think plenty of our team have struggled with. A well drilled player who has spent every day practicing what to do in this situation, what to do when that happens, they won't think their way into trouble they'll just do what they've been drilled to do.

I'm not saying Lovren will become an amazing defender overnight, but maybe he deserves a clean slate with the new manager coming in.

[jepovic]

The most interesting thing is what happens to Benteke and Sturridge - I really don't see that as a partnership in a Klopp side.

Agreee completely. I think most players in the squad could play Klopp's style of football, but I'm not sure about our strikers.  On the other hand, I think both of them have been pretty good this season.

[plskikme]

To be fair, Kenny had Lucas at his absolute peak. I thought Lucas was frankly phenomenal in the games leading up to (and including the Chelsea) his first big injury. This is coming from someone who thinks Lucas was a bit average before and after the injury.

He was, it was amazing how often he won it back early for us by himself. He's definitely not gained back that sharpness and timing consistently but has still shown glimpses. Hopefully if we do go with the team wide gegenpress, the presumably shared workload will help him perform better. People also severely underestimate his forward passes into the attacking fullback areas.

[redmark]

While discussion of Klopp's tactics and the squad's suitability for them is clearly inevitably seductive and fascinating, I think it's probably a little premature.

Footballers have personalities. Klopp has a personality - quite a large one, and quite different to any previous manager, certainly that these players have worked with. Who is going to 'fit', who is going to respond well to Klopp's tactics is probably at this stage secondary to who responds to him as a personality, as a man, as a boss. Which players are going to respond to a booming, grinning, bear-hugging, face-slapping Klopp with enthusiasm - becoming believers rather than doubters? Which are going to think "nah, fuck that".

I'm not sure that's at all predictable, and those best suited to Klopp mentally may be less suited tactically, or vice versa.

[jepovic]

To be fair, Kenny had Lucas at his absolute peak. I thought Lucas was frankly phenomenal in the games leading up to (and including the Chelsea) his first big injury. This is coming from someone who thinks Lucas was a bit average before and after the injury.

Sure, but the competition Lucas is facing from the rest of the squad now is also weaker than he ever had before. No Masch, no gerrard, no Alonso. Lucas is our only classic DM, with defensive stats that are way better than the rest.

[plskikme]

Agreee completely. I think most players in the squad could play Klopp's style of football, but I'm not sure about our strikers.  On the other hand, I think both of them have been pretty good this season.

Much has been said about old Benteke to Dortmund links and Sturridge scored his best tally when in a "loose" partnership with Suarez. I don't think the issue is if they'll flourish or suited, it's how often they will be on the pitch at the same time seeing as neither press as hard as our other options there (Milner, Ings, Firmino, Lallana etc)

[spider-neil]

Agreee completely. I think most players in the squad could play Klopp's style of football, but I'm not sure about our strikers.  On the other hand, I think both of them have been pretty good this season.

Benteke is a 1 in 2 striker
Sturridge is a 1 in 1. 5 striker

Those strikers are like goal dust. The thing with aggressive pressing is you tire very very quickly so you need to put away the chances you create and you have to be clinical in the final third or the other time with gain confidence the longer the game goes without a goal and pick you off.

Benteke and Sturridge have to adjust their game and Klopp needs to work out how to get the best out of them.
Remember, Klopp will see them in training and will see where their strengths lie and how much their bodies can take.

[Chalky Boots]

Weird how Skrtel and Lucas having their fourth manager in ~8-years is seen as a compliment to their abilities.

I think Lucas could do a similar thing to Kehl, someone who can come in to certain games and provide some experience but otherwise is there to support a more vibrant set of individuals.

Skrtel is the one constant in a defense that went from outstanding in Rafa's title challenge (with Carragher/Hyypia/Agger as the regulars) to respectable, to average and then to sub par. I think when Rodgers came in you could have argued that he still had time to become a more consistent defender and a more prominent leader but he's now the most experienced player at the club, in his early 30's and he's really no better than the guy we signed 7 years ago.

If there's one to keep around it's Lucas, otherwise - as Klopp alluded to- we need to look to our future.

edit:
Very confident in Benteke and Sturridge adapting as well, I think Benteke is made for this football whilst Sturridge is just an outstanding player regardless. My only concern is how well Daniel holds up to such a rigorous fitness regime or whether or not he'll receive special treatment with his injury history in mind. 

[lionel_messias]

While discussion of Klopp's tactics and the squad's suitability for them is clearly inevitably seductive and fascinating, I think it's probably a little premature.

Footballers have personalities. Klopp has a personality - quite a large one, and quite different to any previous manager, certainly that these players have worked with. Who is going to 'fit', who is going to respond well to Klopp's tactics is probably at this stage secondary to who responds to him as a personality, as a man, as a boss. Which players are going to respond to a booming, grinning, bear-hugging, face-slapping Klopp with enthusiasm - becoming believers rather than doubters? Which are going to think "nah, fuck that".

I'm not sure that's at all predictable, and those best suited to Klopp mentally may be less suited tactically, or vice versa.

James Milner.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Sure, but the competition Lucas is facing from the rest of the squad now is also weaker than he ever had before. No Masch, no gerrard, no Alonso. Lucas is our only classic DM, with defensive stats that are way better than the rest.

Lucas' problem (post-injury) is when he gets turned. When the play is in front of him he is OK but if the opposition get in behind, particularly on a counter-attack, watching him trying to get back is painful.

Perhaps with a new manager and system the opposition won't get behind him as frequently/easy.

[lionel_messias]

Benteke is a 1 in 2 striker
Sturridge is a 1 in 1. 5 striker

Those strikers are like goal dust. The thing with aggressive pressing is you tire very very quickly so you need to put away the chances you create and you have to be clinical in the final third or the other time with gain confidence the longer the game goes without a goal and pick you off.

Benteke and Sturridge have to adjust their game and Klopp needs to work out how to get the best out of them.
Remember, Klopp will see them in training and will see where their strengths lie and how much their bodies can take.

Yes but crucially not together on the pitch. If we play two forwards like that, it will take away from other areas of the pitch. Maybe we see Sturridge as an impact sub or specially selected for certain games.

[spider-neil]

Lucas' problem (post-injury) is when he gets turned. When the play is in front of him he is OK but if the opposition get in behind, particularly on a counter-attack, watching him trying to get back is painful.

Perhaps with a new manager and system the opposition won't get behind him as frequently/easy.

I'm of the opinion the holding midfielder needs to go to danger rather than sitting in front of the defence.
He should also have the mobility and stamina to keep our midfield and defence a compact unit (move forwards when we attack and back when we defend). I don't think Lucas has the legs for that but ultimately, we'll see.

[Funky_Gibbons]

I think Lucas could do a similar thing to Kehl, someone who can come in to certain games and provide some experience but otherwise is there to support a more vibrant set of individuals.

Skrtel is the one constant in a defense that went from outstanding in Rafa's title challenge (with Carragher/Hyypia/Agger as the regulars) to respectable, to average and then to sub par. I think when Rodgers came in you could have argued that he still had time to become a more consistent defender and a more prominent leader but he's now the most experienced player at the club, in his early 30's and he's really no better than the guy we signed 7 years ago.

If there's one to keep around it's Lucas, otherwise - as Klopp alluded to- we need to look to our future.

Agree with that. Skrtel has always excelled in teams that were set-up for defensive stability, defensively minded full-backs who tucked in to make a narrow back four.

My biggest disappointment towards the end with Rodgers is that he persevered with Skrtel. I believe that one simple change would have made a dramatic difference.   

[spider-neil]

Yes but crucially not together on the pitch. If we play two forwards like that, it will take away from other areas of the pitch. Maybe we see Sturridge as an impact sub or specially selected for certain games.

The idea is to have them in close proximity to each and also to compress the play so the amount of ground they have to cover isn't very large. Will be interesting to see how this saga unfolds. Decides I don't think either player can handle two games a week so rotation actually suits them.

[Kennys from heaven]

No he doesn't need to hit the ground running at all.What he needs is time.

We don't have a Messi, Ronaldo or Suraez who you can say gave the ball too and let them produce magic. All our players need to improve and serious work required on them.

He is left with Rodgers and the TC players and will need time to develop his our squad.

Also in his interview he talked about defensive work while Rodgers was all about attack and our defence was poor. Klopp and Rodgers view on football seems a little different and Klopp will require time to get his view across to to players.

Klopp requires time and for us to get Anfield bouncing again. Let's not put pressure on a world class manager for no reason.

Perhaps I wasn't clear: I am all for giving him time (I was actually one of the few that thought Brendan should have been given more), but the vast majority do not think that way and I fear that if he doesn't come up with the good straight off, that he'll be utterly destroyed. That's why I said he has to hit the ground running.

There is no pressure from me - absolutely not. I think we've got a gem here, but I despair at the short-termism of the modern day fans/owners/media. I don;t want to see another manager through the door anytime soon. Interesting that this is only a three year deal as well.

[Funky_Gibbons]

I'm of the opinion the holding midfielder needs to go to danger rather than sitting in front of the defence.
He should also have the mobility and stamina to keep our midfield and defence a compact unit (move forwards when we attack and back when we defend). I don't think Lucas has the legs for that but ultimately, we'll see.

Allen may be able to fill that role, but like Lucas picks up too many niggling injuries. Not convinced Can has the mindset for that position.

[spider-neil]

Allen may be able to fill that role, but like Lucas picks up too many niggling injuries. Not convinced Can has the mindset for that position.

Agree and agree. People are calling for Can in midfield but I ultimately think he will end up in defence.

[Smellytrabs]

Yes but crucially not together on the pitch. If we play two forwards like that, it will take away from other areas of the pitch. Maybe we see Sturridge as an impact sub or specially selected for certain games.

I think we could play Sturridge in the hole. Would get less goals for himself, but he is also great at creating chances for others, bringing others into the game, and I think he could still score big from there. Have a feeling that him and Benteke could play off each other really well.

[lionel_messias]

Agree and agree. People are calling for Can in midfield but I ultimately think he will end up in defence.

I disagree on that. I think he needs grooming/developing but his role will be in midfield where he can influence the game the most.

What will need to happen is he'll need the right partner there, he could play with a DM like a Sven Bender or we use we one of our current players there short term.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Agree and agree. People are calling for Can in midfield but I ultimately think he will end up in defence.

I think Can could develop into a better CB than CM.

[spider-neil]

I disagree on that. I think he needs grooming/developing but his role will be in midfield where he can influence the game the most.

What will need to happen is he'll need the right partner there, he could play with a DM like a Sven Bender or we use we one of our current players there short term.

I don't think he has the mobility to play in midfield. I watched the Germany game v Ireland and I thought Can was very similar to Hummels. I wonder if Klopp will attempt to convert Can in a CB like he did with Hummels.

[TealC]

We all know that Klopp is gonna bring in some wingers..

1. Who would you buy? Within reason.

2. Who would Klopp be likely to buy?

[spider-neil]

We all know that Klopp is gonna bring in some wingers..

1. Who would you buy? Within reason.

2. Who would Klopp be likely to buy?

I think in the winter and summer transfer windows you will see very few players arrive and I think Markovic will almost certainly return from loan.

[leivapool]

@spider-neil

Are you trying to get  a record for highest percentage numbers for posts in one thread?  It's impossible to ignore you've posted cos of your f*ckin annoying avatar!!

[spider-neil]

@spider-neil

Are you trying to get  a record for highest percentage numbers for posts in one thread?  It's impossible to ignore you've posted cos of your f*ckin annoying avatar!!

You don't like my cute little Spidey?

[007.lankyguy]

Lucas' problem (post-injury) is when he gets turned. When the play is in front of him he is OK but if the opposition get in behind, particularly on a counter-attack, watching him trying to get back is painful.

That's the crux of the problem - mobility. He's not a shielding, 'positional' DM; he functionally operates as a destroyer, using fouls to break up play, being aggressive, trying to win the ball by going in for tackles. When it doesn't work, he gets caught out of position and leaves space behind him and because his lack of mobility, particularly when coming back from injury, he always ends up struggling in such a scenario. His supporters can point to the amount tackles he makes, his critics can point to the amount of missed tackles he makes and the amount of times he gets run past.

In Rodgers' open system, his weaknesses were exacerbated. It's possible that Klopp's more compact system will get the best out of him but it's also more physically demanding and the constant pressurising from the front can end up leaving space between the lines. That's when Lucas' lack of mobility and acceleration could get shown up. Ideally I think we'd get an upgrade pretty soon but we'll have to see how well he works under Klopp and whether Klopp will like what he brings to the team. He is really the only DM in the squad (unless we're counting a player like Chirivella).