Topic: Thread for Sensible Discussion about Klopp

[rickardinho1]

Why do you think Klopp wont play Sturridge through the middle. He is by far the most clinical striker we have.

If he's rotating for League/cup games then I think he'd rather have both Benteke and Sturridge in the league and rest both for the cup. We shall see.

[Bunter]

Without trying to deviate from the questions which I'll try to answer later. I'm curious on his tactics, I've seen some opinion that he won't get away with his pressing game here and he'll get "worked out" quickly, but I think the PL is probably one of the lesser tactically astute leagues in Europe and people seem massively overestimate it's quality and underestimate how effective pressing was against these technically inferior teams.

I suppose my questions are how adaptive to situations is his "gegenpressing" style and during his Dortmund time could he implement a Plan B/C etc. when required?

Also what happened during his last season and how did he manage to turn it around so effectively?

[Fordy]

Think players like Teix and Kent(when back from loan) will play a lot for us this season.

Like any manager who comes into a club he will want to put his own stamp on things. Players you like because they produced under Rodgers might not be to Klopps liking or produce under him.

It's a case of wait and see but it's an exciting time.

[nvssudheer]

If Klopp chooses to play Can with Sakho as center back I hope people don't lose their mind for playing him "out of position" 

[spider-neil]

Without trying to deviate from the questions which I'll try to answer later. I'm curious on his tactics, I've seen some opinion that he won't get away with his pressing game here and he'll get "worked out" quickly, but I think the PL is probably one of the lesser tactically astute leagues in Europe and people seem massively overestimate it's quality and underestimate how effective pressing was against these technically inferior teams.

I suppose my questions are how adaptive to situations is his "gegenpressing" style and during his Dortmund time could he implement a Plan B/C etc. when required?

Also what happened during his last season and how did he manage to turn it around so effectively?

I think the problem with Klopp will face will be fatigue. The amount of running that will be required will mean we have got to put teams away early. The longer the match drags on the more the players will tire and gaps will open up.

Germany v Ireland really was an eye opener with regards to the high defensive line v low block.
This is the reason why I think players like Coutinho shouldn't be played in the final third (50 shots, 1 goal) and players like Sturridge need to be squeezed into the team because he is clinical. 

[rickardinho1]

If Klopp chooses to play Can with Sakho as center back I hope people don't lose their mind for playing him "out of position" 

Can you imagine the turmoil if Sakho is played at RCB and Can at LCB?

Without trying to deviate from the questions which I'll try to answer later. I'm curious on his tactics, I've seen some opinion that he won't get away with his pressing game here and he'll get "worked out" quickly, but I think the PL is probably one of the lesser tactically astute leagues in Europe and people seem massively overestimate it's quality and underestimate how effective pressing was against these technically inferior teams.

I suppose my questions are how adaptive to situations is his "gegenpressing" style and during his Dortmund time could he implement a Plan B/C etc. when required?

Also what happened during his last season and how did he manage to turn it around so effectively?

There's a good video a page back that provides a good intro to gegenpressing.

I agree that gegenpressing should work fine here, in fact in theory it did for Southampton in 13/14 until their small squad tired in the second half - which is one of the drawbacks of the system. We also playes something similar to it towards the end of 13/14 at brief times with some success, but that wasn't with a high line even though we did press like crazy. We've got a big squad so should be able to cope fitness wise one would think.

Dortmund were forced to develop the possession side of their game in the last year or two, but statistically they remained one of the best sides in terms of chances created and conceded - including during their poor run in 14/15 interestingly enough. There's a decent article in it in TomkinsTimes iirc.

[spider-neil]

If Klopp chooses to play Can with Sakho as center back I hope people don't lose their mind for playing him "out of position" 

People have conceptions of what is a player's 'best position.
Like Coutinho as a number 10 or Can as a midfielder.
I hope if (or rather when) Klopp starts moving people around the pitch people simple trust him and bite their lip through the inevitable teething problems.

[mc_red22]

He looks as excited to be here as we are to see him here. I can't see him tracking our flights anytime soon though. He's so open and free with his answers to questions in his interview, first interview I've seen in a while that isn't robotic. He's got such a wacky persona.

[spider-neil]

Can you imagine the turmoil if Sakho is played at RCB and Can at LCB?
There's a good video a page back that provides a good intro to gegenpressing.

I agree that gegenpressing should work fine here, in fact in theory it did for Southampton in 13/14 until their small squad tired in the second half - which is one of the drawbacks of the system. We also playes something similar to it towards the end of 13/14 at brief times with some success, but that wasn't with a high line even though we did press like crazy. We've got a big squad so should be able to cope fitness wise one would think.

Dortmund were forced to develop the possession side of their game in the last year or two, but statistically they remained one of the best sides in terms of chances created and conceded - including during their poor run in 14/15 interestingly enough. There's a decent article in it in TomkinsTimes iirc.

In 13/14 we pressed from the front (Suarez, Henderson, Sterling) but didn't squeeze up from the back and this meant we conceded goals for fun. I think Rodgers made a major mistake with not trying to truly adjust the back line to compress us as a unit in 14/15. He basically put a band aid on the problem by going 3 at the back rather than dealing with the problem head on. He then bought players for a back 4 in the summer but reverted to the safety first back 3 at the first sign of trouble. I think the back 3 is what made FSG pull the trigger. That's managing game to game to save your job rather than implementing a long term plan.

My point is, Klopp should take the short term hit of restructuring the back line with players able to hold a high line rather than mulling along with the same problems that prevent us pushing up the pitch for the short term gain of immediate results. 

[rickardinho1]

In 13/14 we pressed from the front (Suarez, Henderson, Sterling) but didn't squeeze up from the back and this meant we conceded goals for fun. I think Rodgers made a major mistake with not trying to truly adjust the back line to compress us as a unit in 14/15. He basically put a band aid on the problem by going 3 at the back rather than dealing with the problem head on. He then bought players for a back 4 in the summer but reverted to the safety first back 3 at the first sign of trouble. I think the back 3 is what made FSG pull the trigger. That's managing game to game to save your job rather than implementing a long term plan.

My point is, Klopp should take the short term hit of restructuring the back line with players able to hold a high line rather than mulling along with the same problems that prevent us pushing up the pitch for the short term gain of immediate results.

Agree completely.

We should be patient if he chooses to start Can or Gomez (or Lovren) at RCB, even if mistakes are made at the start. And there will be mistakes.

[Hightown]

1. Which senior players do you think will flourish and/or surprise us under Klopp? - Markovic - Hugely so after his loan finishes , Lovren, Lallana - Initially at least as they are the most familiar with what he will want to employ, Firminho, Benteke, Henderson, Milner, Clyne, Gomez, possibly Can.

2. Which senior players won't fit in? - Sturridge will badly struggle to stay fit with the intensity required from Klopp, Lucas - don't think he has the pace or discipline to play that system, Skrtel - can't play a high line - will lose out to Lovren or Gomez, Coutinho could find Firminho preferred over him and if the Barca interest is real could be sold to give Klopp a big rebuilding kitty, Mignolet - he just isn't a good enough keeper

3. Which youth players will benefit or lose out from Klopp's appointment? The ones good enough will benefit the others will suffer
 
4. How long will it take Klopp to get the team playing coherently in his system? - Will be a work in progress for this season and most of next - how many players he thinks are required will determine it as much as anything.

5. Where in the table do you see us finishing this season? 5th - 7th, think this season now is all about finding out what he has and what he will need for next, testing the players and earmarking what's needed for the summer, think you'll go far in one of the cups

[harleydanger]

In 13/14 we pressed from the front (Suarez, Henderson, Sterling) but didn't squeeze up from the back and this meant we conceded goals for fun. I think Rodgers made a major mistake with not trying to truly adjust the back line to compress us as a unit in 14/15. He basically put a band aid on the problem by going 3 at the back rather than dealing with the problem head on. He then bought players for a back 4 in the summer but reverted to the safety first back 3 at the first sign of trouble. I think the back 3 is what made FSG pull the trigger. That's managing game to game to save your job rather than implementing a long term plan.

My point is, Klopp should take the short term hit of restructuring the back line with players able to hold a high line rather than mulling along with the same problems that prevent us pushing up the pitch for the short term gain of immediate results. 

Well Rodgers was out of capital at that point. That's the problem you have as a young manager, lack of capital you can use to address problems.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

Almost every poster in this thread thinks Skrtel will have problems.

As I've said before, I don't think anyone doubts his quality, just his suitability style-wise (high-line). His age also makes it improbable that a new manager will want to build around him.

But what do I know 

But do we know for sure that Klopp is going to adopt the same approach he had with Dortmund, i.e, collective pressing, high defensive line and counter attacking at every opportunity?  Especially the high defensive line, which has been repeatedly proved to be vulnerable in the PL where possession turnover is much higher than comparable European leagues.

AVB tried and failed. Wenger tried and succeeded to an extent but that was a while ago. City are the only club who have deployed the high line relatively successfully in recent times. 

Great managers have their individual approaches but are also very flexible in order to quickly adapt and change when needed.

I dont believe we will immediately shift to a high defensive line, especially with Mignolet as the keeper.  It will take quite some time for us to start playing the Dortmund way.

[Hightown]

Can you imagine the turmoil if Sakho is played at RCB and Can at LCB?
There's a good video a page back that provides a good intro to gegenpressing.

I agree that gegenpressing should work fine here, in fact in theory it did for Southampton in 13/14 until their small squad tired in the second half - which is one of the drawbacks of the system. We also playes something similar to it towards the end of 13/14 at brief times with some success, but that wasn't with a high line even though we did press like crazy. We've got a big squad so should be able to cope fitness wise one would think.

Dortmund were forced to develop the possession side of their game in the last year or two, but statistically they remained one of the best sides in terms of chances created and conceded - including during their poor run in 14/15 interestingly enough. There's a decent article in it in TomkinsTimes iirc.

Interesting point that i have made myself about Southampton using the system a few years back mate, thing is though from what i recall at Dortmund Klopp favours a small squad of 15-16 players rather than a bigger squad, maybe it's easier to drill the tactics into a smaller squad or to keep them at the intensity required once they get used to the systems demands, so not sure if the big squad is actually an advantage or a bizarrely a disadvantage under those circumstances.

[spider-neil]

Agree completely.

We should be patient if he chooses to start Can or Gomez (or Lovren) at RCB, even if mistakes are made at the start. And there will be mistakes.

The good thing is, I'm of the opinion that the majority of what Klopp needs is already here in the squad.
People say we have a weak or average squad and I disagree entirely. I think the squad has struggled because too much emphasis was placed on defence and the attacking players struggles (14/15) and in 13/14 too much emphasis was placed on the attack and the defence struggled. I think with a few adjustments education with regards to positioning on and off the ball, both the attack and defence will flourish.

I think the only major signing we need are;
A goal keeper (unless Mignolet can be coached as a sweeper)
A centre back if Klopp feels Gomez is too raw or Can isn't suited for the back line
A holding midfielder - but I think Klopp can educate the players that are already here

Basically, it isn't personnel it that's required but education and how quickly Klopp can get his ideas across and how willing the squad are to take those ideas on board. The upside it the squad is very young and you'd think they'll be up for new ideas.

[spider-neil]

Interesting point that i have made myself about Southampton using the system a few years back mate, thing is though from what i recall at Dortmund Klopp favours a small squad of 15-16 players rather than a bigger squad, maybe it's easier to drill the tactics into a smaller squad or to keep them at the intensity required once they get used to the systems demands, so not sure if the big squad is actually an advantage or a bizarrely a disadvantage under those circumstances.

Not possible to do that in England (small squad). The pace of the game is way faster, there's no winter break and a lot of our players are injury prone (probably due to the high intensity nature of the league).
Rodgers was very lucky with injuries in 13/14 and even then we had no European games.

[Fordy]

Well he's made it clear that the defense will be coming under some serious work.

I can see players like Mig, Sktel coming under the spot light.

[Redcap]

Interesting to see how many people think we won't see the team get into its stride under Klopp until next season, yet reckon we'll make top 4.

I think we'll stagger to about 5th, possibly coming good towards the end of the season. If we finish 4th, it'll be due to Chelsea or Man U falling apart at some point... or continuing to do so in the case of Chelsea.

[LFC UNTIL THE MANAGER IS NO LONGER DESERVING OF MY SYMPATHY]

Lucas - don't think he has the pace or discipline to play that system

Discipline?  He's a DM, he's disciplined in terms of his positioning.  Not sure what you mean here?!

I think every player will look better under Klopp, due to the tactics.

Re: Lucas, lack of pace.  Sahin was quality under Klopp and he is probably slower than Lucas.  With the team being compact defensively Lucas will look much better, as will most of the team. 

[Hightown]

Not possible to do that in England (small squad). The pace of the game is way faster, there's no winter break and a lot of our players are injury prone (probably due to the high intensity nature of the league).
Rodgers was very lucky with injuries in 13/14 and even then we had no European games.

The lack of a winter break is certainly a big disadvantage, thing is though - i honestly don't know if it's just one of those Myths about a big squad being needed, i think of Chelsea under Mourinho last season and first time here and he operated with a small core of players really, same with Ferguson during his heyday of winning things - operated with a core group of 15-16 for the league and both used the bigger squad for league cup, FA cup and European dead rubber games more than the bread and butter of the league.

Requires luck for sure with injuries as seen by Dortmund last season when Klopp had a lot of key players down the first half of the season and struggled until they returned

[kaz1983]

Wasn't Hummels a defensive mid/center back in the early part of his career?

[BigAl24]

Well he's made it clear that the defense will be coming under some serious work.

I can see players like Mig, Sktel coming under the spot light.

I think they'll be replaced as soon as possible to be honest.

[Hightown]

Discipline?  He's a DM, he's disciplined in terms of his positioning.  Not sure what you mean here?!

I think every player will look better under Klopp, due to the tactics.

Re: Lucas, lack of pace.  Sahin was quality under Klopp and he is probably slower than Lucas.  With the team being compact defensively Lucas will look much better, as will most of the team.

Probably a poor choice of word, think generally i mean he is not a versatile player with enough to his game to play what is in that system a very demanding role, requiring filling in for the fb's as they are used very aggressively and a range of passing that I'm unsure Lucas is capable of, at his age i'm not sure if you can suddenly teach a player to add that much more to his game

[rafathegaffa83]

1. Which senior players do you think will flourish and/or surprise us under Klopp?

Markovic, when he comes back. Moreno. Henderson. Ings

2. Which senior players won't fit in?

Lovren. Skrtel.

3. Which youth players will benefit or lose out from Klopp's appointment?

Kent

4. How long will it take Klopp to get the team playing coherently in his system?

I think it will probably take until about March. I think there will be a few occasions where the high defensive line gets burned or players make silly mistakes as part of the learning process. I could also see some players flagging near the end of the season, due to the added physical component to Jürgen's game.

5. Where in the table do you see us finishing this season? Given that he's coming into a new league and will need time to implement his ideas, I think 5th or 6th is realistic. Anything more at this point would be an achievement. I'd love to see him win a cup in his first season. He's going to need patience and time, but the fact he's recognized building through a solid defence as a priority was music to my ears, as it's something Rodgers never really took an interest in/control of.

[spider-neil]

Brendan focused on goals the moment he arrived. Klopp, it seems will focus on the defence.

[spider-neil]

Wasn't Hummels a defensive mid/center back in the early part of his career?

Yes, that is why talk of Can in the centre of defence isn't that far fetched.

[Roger Federer]

What sort of goalkeeper is/was Weidenfeller? Not paid enough attention to him when I watched Dortmund in the CL.

Mignolet is probably our main weakness if we switch to a back four, play a high line and the team is very aggressive in it's pressing. He can defend that area behind the line as he's too slow, and too slow to react to danger.

[Hightown]

Wasn't Hummels a defensive mid/center back in the early part of his career?

Yup like a lot of Centre backs he got experience in the defensive mid role, quite a few others got it playing fullback as well, think it's a standard progression path for players for a lot of coaches

Take my team, Stones - played early games at rb for Barnsley and Everton before switching to cb, Galloway - a natural cb getting experience at lb, Jagielka - played a lot of games in Defensive mid for Sheff United and the early part of his time with us as well before switching full time to cb, Browning - a natural cb again getting played at rb to get experience, that's just looking at one club as well. but included there  are both Everton's last two managers, Warnock, the Barnsley manager and the MK dons manager who all played natural cb's at a young age 'out of position' to get them experience

[LFC UNTIL THE MANAGER IS NO LONGER DESERVING OF MY SYMPATHY]

Probably a poor choice of word, think generally i mean he is not a versatile player with enough to his game to play what is in that system a very demanding role, requiring filling in for the fb's as they are used very aggressively and a range of passing that I'm unsure Lucas is capable of, at his age i'm not sure if you can suddenly teach a player to add that much more to his game

OK I get you.

I personally think he'll look much better under Klopp than Rodgers.

Lucas might not be quick, but he has a very good level of fitness.  That's more important IMO under Klopp.

[leivapool]

Probably a poor choice of word, think generally i mean he is not a versatile player with enough to his game to play what is in that system a very demanding role, requiring filling in for the fb's as they are used very aggressively and a range of passing that I'm unsure Lucas is capable of, at his age i'm not sure if you can suddenly teach a player to add that much more to his game

Lucas isn't massively versatile,  but you do him a disservice. 

For what it's worth,  given that he's one of our more technical and intelligent players I think Klopp will love him.  He's positionally sound,  combative,  was coached in pressing under Rafa,  and is a very good passer in terms of accuracy in tight spaces and vertical balls in between the lines.  I reckon he's gonna surprise quite a few of the naysayers .  Does need to stay fit though!

[MichaelA]

A thread for hopeless nerds like myself who want to have sensible discussion about Klopp's imminent arrival

I'm in

A thread for hopeless nerds like myself who want to have sensible discussion about Klopp's imminent arrival

Here's a few suggestions to get the ball rolling, but feel free to branch out.

1. Which senior players do you think will flourish and/or surprise us under Klopp?
ALL OF THEM
2. Which senior players won't fit in?
NONE OF THEM
3. Which youth players will benefit or lose out from Klopp's appointment?
ALL OF THEM
4. How long will it take Klopp to get the team playing coherently in his system?
INSTANTLY
5. Where in the table do you see us finishing this season?
TOP OF THE LEAGUE


Cheers 

[Cid]

I honestly can't quite believe we've signed him.  He must have really wanted to come here, because there's no chance we talked him into it imo.

Its like signing a bale or a ronaldo.  Klopp is genuinely in the top 4-5 managers of the world, and i'd argue he's number 1 when it comes to building a side over a medium period of time.

We now have the best manager in the league...and a great back room team helping him (I don't want to take a dig at Rodgers, but Klopp surrounds himself with strong talents and people who are experts in different sides of the game..that has got to be more useful than a staff of people who just nod along).

1. Which senior players do you think will flourish and/or surprise us under Klopp?

I think Henderson and Coutinho will flourish.  They fit with the archetypes klopp based Dortmund around.  I think Markovic could do very well under klopp.

2. Which senior players won't fit in?  I think Lucas and Benteke may struggle.  I'm not convinced either has the ability to play the game at breakneck speed, either in thought or action.  I'd also wonder about Skrtel.

3. Which youth players will benefit or lose out from Klopp's appointment?  Ibe may struggle to get the same opportunities, klopp isnt emotionally invested in him and if he keeps playing like he does now he won't get in the side. 

4. How long will it take Klopp to get the team playing coherently in his system?  Probably won't see the best of it. Until next season.  This season hopfuilly we can see the signs of development and at least be tactically astute...perhaps finally sort out our defending.

5. Where in the table do you see us finishing this season?

Honestly I don't expect us to be brilliant but third or fourth is realistic.  United are shite and Chelsea are in self destruct.  I can't see us overturning arsenal or city but we've surely got to be in with a good shot at getting back in the champs league (assuming we have 4 slots need season).

[vinothmct]

We have a good team if not a great team . I hope we win a trophy. We are too big a club to go trophyless for four Seasons. Europa league please

[rickardinho1]

But do we know for sure that Klopp is going to adopt the same approach he had with Dortmund, i.e, collective pressing, high defensive line and counter attacking at every opportunity?  Especially the high defensive line, which has been repeatedly proved to be vulnerable in the PL where possession turnover is much higher than comparable European leagues.

AVB tried and failed. Wenger tried and succeeded to an extent but that was a while ago. City are the only club who have deployed the high line relatively successfully in recent times. 

Great managers have their individual approaches but are also very flexible in order to quickly adapt and change when needed.

I dont believe we will immediately shift to a high defensive line, especially with Mignolet as the keeper.  It will take quite some time for us to start playing the Dortmund way.

We did the high line under Rafa a bit, and Southampton did it in 2013/14.

As Klopp said this morning, football is a game with the same pitch dimensions and rules for everybody, no matter where you are, so I don't see why his tactics wouldn't work here. He'll want an aggressive attacking style, which means a high line, no doubt about it.

It might take time but he'll do it one way or another. I expect Can/Gomez at RCB, and he'll give Mignolet until January that he can play a high line. If he can't he'll get someone else in if a good GK is available.

[Hightown]

Lucas isn't massively versatile,  but you do him a disservice. 

For what it's worth,  given that he's one of our more technical and intelligent players I think Klopp will love him.  He's positionally sound,  combative,  was coached in pressing under Rafa,  and is a very good passer in terms of accuracy in tight spaces and vertical balls in between the lines.  I reckon he's gonna surprise quite a few of the naysayers .  Does need to stay fit though!

Could well be right, right at the mo, all we are doing is speculating, part of my musings are about who and what position he will look to bring in as soon as he can do, and who by the nature of that will miss out in the current squad.

Think he will try to strengthen the spine - cb/dm as his first prio, hence thinking Lucas and Skrtel will be the ones to suffer most

[Smellytrabs]

Discipline?  He's a DM, he's disciplined in terms of his positioning.  Not sure what you mean here?!

I think every player will look better under Klopp, due to the tactics.

Re: Lucas, lack of pace.  Sahin was quality under Klopp and he is probably slower than Lucas.  With the team being compact defensively Lucas will look much better, as will most of the team. 

Agree with this. Also, the Villa and the Everton game Lucas was starting to look a lot more mobile, closer to his old self. He covered a lot of ground in both those games.

Still think he's the best and most important midfielder we have. Can't see Klopp not using him. In fact I can't see Klopp not using him as the anchor that the rest of the team is based around.

[Felch Aid]

No expectations for this season as we haven't had a pre season with Klopp and we're starting afresh. I have no doubt there will be a natural lift and improvement from the players with a new manager in place which might see us climb the table and make an effort in the europa (our coeffient needs improving and I'm sure he will be wary of that).

I think we have an all round top guy - tactics, motivator and man manager. Cannot wait but not really expecting much till August 2016.

[spider-neil]

We did the high line under Rafa a bit, and Southampton did it in 2013/14.

As Klopp said this morning, football is a game with the same pitch dimensions and rules for everybody, no matter where you are, so I don't see why his tactics wouldn't work here. He'll want an aggressive attacking style, which means a high line, no doubt about it.

It might take time but he'll do it one way or another. I expect Can/Gomez at RCB, and he'll give Mignolet until January that he can play a high line. If he can't he'll get someone else in if a good GK is available.

After Klopp's talk about the defence I'm now wondering if he'll stick with Skrtel till the summer and then bring in his own guy.

[Hightown]

We did the high line under Rafa a bit, and Southampton did it in 2013/14.

As Klopp said this morning, football is a game with the same pitch dimensions and rules for everybody, no matter where you are, so I don't see why his tactics wouldn't work here. He'll want an aggressive attacking style, which means a high line, no doubt about it.

It might take time but he'll do it one way or another. I expect Can/Gomez at RCB, and he'll give Mignolet until January that he can play a high line. If he can't he'll get someone else in if a good GK is available.

I'd say Gomez is a year or two away from being able to play cb in the league right now mate, ideally he could do with a loan to a top championship club with conditions set to play him or a lower half prem side or hell even to Germany for a season to someone like Mainz, bloke needs games at his age to learn, Can is much more ready to play right now, although both look good ones for the future

[LFC when it suits]

I honestly can't quite believe we've signed him.  He must have really wanted to come here, because there's no chance we talked him into it imo.

The top two candidates for the job were Ancelotti and Klopp. Let that sink in. We have become too pessimistic. We fail to realise that we are still one of the biggest clubs around.