Author Topic: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16  (Read 223560 times)

Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #440 on: November 24, 2015, 01:10:38 pm »
Am I right in saying 8 of our next 9 are par 3's? Including United and Arsenal. Not much room for manoeuvre in APLT if we want to stay in contention right at the top.

There never is. The APLT is about winning the league.
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Offline campioni

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #441 on: November 24, 2015, 01:25:02 pm »
Am I right in saying 8 of our next 9 are par 3's? Including United and Arsenal. Not much room for manoeuvre in APLT if we want to stay in contention right at the top.

14 of our next 15 are par 3's. west ham away on 2nd January being the only par 1 in that run.

Its inevitable we'll drop points in the APLT in that time but as Nessy points out, that is against title winning form, ie 90 points target. By the time that run is over the 71 point line (top 4 form will be -14 points) which to my mind means we can afford to drop 9 points in the APLT and still be on course for top 4.

Obviously the less we drop the better but drawing at home to the likes of united and arsenal won't be a disaster as long as we put away the teams below us.

Offline Schmidt

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #442 on: November 24, 2015, 01:32:48 pm »
One point about our home form is that we've rarely had much fire-power this season, so trying to cut through a tightly packed defence with a quite blunt attack is always difficult. With Firmino finding form, Sturridge on the cusp of a return and Benteke more or less fit we should be able to scrape a few more wins and avoid a return to those 1-1 draws we were all getting sick of seeing.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #443 on: November 24, 2015, 01:36:50 pm »
Good point, and has there not been an unusually high amount of away wins the PL in general this year - possibly higher than the amount of home wins?

Exactly level at present.

48 home wins. 48 away wins.

At this stage last year it was 54-38.
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Offline MerseysideBrum

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #444 on: November 25, 2015, 12:42:56 am »
Exactly level at present.

48 home wins. 48 away wins.

At this stage last year it was 54-38.
I think that is due to mid table teams really learning how to soak up and counter the big teams now. Still and insane stat.
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Offline bobadicious

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #445 on: November 25, 2015, 08:44:58 am »
I think that is due to mid table teams really learning how to soak up and counter the big teams now. Still and insane stat.

Or maybe home atmospheres being less than intimidating now as we've seen at Anfield. 
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #446 on: November 25, 2015, 06:03:13 pm »


The title is up for grabs...
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #447 on: November 25, 2015, 06:06:36 pm »


The title is up for grabs...

Would have to know the methodology there, that seems very low. The APLT shows several teams on course for well over 80, and while it doesn't predict anything, a total as low as 79 you'd expect to see a clear indication by this far in.

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Offline Iska

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #448 on: November 25, 2015, 08:09:14 pm »
The curve isn't symmetrical, so it's not predicting 79 points.  If anything it's predicting 80 points (that's where the 50th percentile falls).  Probably best to think about it in terms of likelihood - one-in-five chance it'll take 84+ points to win, one-in-three chance it'll need 82 or more.

Offline Deo

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #449 on: November 25, 2015, 10:08:44 pm »
Would have to know the methodology there, that seems very low. The APLT shows several teams on course for well over 80,


How so? Most teams are on a downward trend as far as I can see, aiming for something around 80. And the APLT table is missing that number of par games played, which is pretty important. Most of the bigger teams are still to play each other and points are bound to be lost somewhere. Dunno about the methodology, but I suspect that it predicts that lower teams will have a better chance of gaining points against the bigger ones while playing away, which in APLT terms means quite a significant drop of points for the bigger teams.

and while it doesn't predict anything, a total as low as 79 you'd expect to see a clear indication by this far in.

It's chances. There's an 81% chance that the champion will finish within the 75-85 margin. Basically, it's going to be a tight race where one slip up might decide the title outcome.
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #450 on: November 26, 2015, 12:10:31 am »

How so? Most teams are on a downward trend as far as I can see, aiming for something around 80. And the APLT table is missing that number of par games played, which is pretty important. Most of the bigger teams are still to play each other and points are bound to be lost somewhere. Dunno about the methodology, but I suspect that it predicts that lower teams will have a better chance of gaining points against the bigger ones while playing away, which in APLT terms means quite a significant drop of points for the bigger teams.

There is almost always a downward trend, that's pretty much how the APLT works. Big teams play one another the same number of times every season, and at this stage, there are always more than half of those games remaining.

The methodology is vital, because that is all that the graph represents. If it has assumptions to begin with, then it is those assumptions which are telling, rather than the graph itself. Simply presenting your opinions in graphical form doesn't magically lend them any special regard, so without the methodology, that's a useless graphic. If you are right and it is assuming that lower teams will take more points than normal off the top four, then it's that assumption which we need to examine. Where is that coming from, and how reliable is it?

We're at (slightly) over a third of the way through the season, so one thing that might be worth looking at is tripling everyone's APLT totals so far and seeing what that gets us.

Man Utd would be on -6, Man City on -9, Arsenal and Liverpool on -15. That suggests a final total somewhere around:

Man Utd: 84+
Man City: 81+
Arsenal: 75+
Liverpool 75+

And if we try something similar with the trad table, we get this:

Man Utd: 81
Man City: 78
Arsenal: 78
Spurs: 72

(What neither table tells you is that title winners tend to go on good runs in the second half of the season, so the trad table at this stage is often conservative when it comes to the final points totals.)

You make a point about the APLT not revealing how many Par 1 games a side has left, so let's look at that.

Man Utd have played 5 Par 1s, scoring 7pts (1.4ppg) and 8 Par 3s, scoring 20pts (2.5ppg)
Sticking to that form would give them 16.8 from their Par 1s and 65 from their Par 3s. Or about 82 points.

So three different "models" all show that Man Utd should be on course for either 84, 81 or 82 points.
(And they aren't even anyone's favourites to win the league.)

Obviously, form can drop or improve, but the trends so far don't seem to support such an unusually low total at the end of the season.

Quote
It's chances. There's an 81% chance that the champion will finish within the 75-85 margin. Basically, it's going to be a tight race where one slip up might decide the title outcome.

The final total of the league winner hasn't been as low as 79 since the turn of the century, I just don't see a dramatic enough shift in results to date to support that low a total at the end of the season. There isn't an "81% chance" of anything just because of an unsupported graph. According to that, the most likely outcome is 79, followed by 78 (!) and then 80 points. History suggests otherwise, and without further information, that's usually the safest guide.

It could be that there is a sound reasoning behind that graph, but without knowing what it is, it's not possible to judge, so all I can say is that to me, that seems an extreme conclusion. We'll find out by May, though.
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Offline Deo

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #451 on: November 26, 2015, 05:23:33 pm »
There is almost always a downward trend, that's pretty much how the APLT works. Big teams play one another the same number of times every season, and at this stage, there are always more than half of those games remaining.

The methodology is vital, because that is all that the graph represents. If it has assumptions to begin with, then it is those assumptions which are telling, rather than the graph itself. Simply presenting your opinions in graphical form doesn't magically lend them any special regard, so without the methodology, that's a useless graphic. If you are right and it is assuming that lower teams will take more points than normal off the top four, then it's that assumption which we need to examine. Where is that coming from, and how reliable is it?

They're right there, in the graph. It's made by @colinttrainor, which a quick google search would reveal his twitter and the fact that he makes articles for statsbomb. Those stats are based on the usual XG and XGA, PDO, the usual stuff that tells you the quality of a side and their true form compared to their results. Extrapolating that over 10k simulations and you get that table. It's certainly more reliable than the APLT.

We're at (slightly) over a third of the way through the season, so one thing that might be worth looking at is tripling everyone's APLT totals so far and seeing what that gets us.

Man Utd would be on -6, Man City on -9, Arsenal and Liverpool on -15. That suggests a final total somewhere around:

Man Utd: 84+
Man City: 81+
Arsenal: 75+
Liverpool 75+

And if we try something similar with the trad table, we get this:

Man Utd: 81
Man City: 78
Arsenal: 78
Spurs: 72

(What neither table tells you is that title winners tend to go on good runs in the second half of the season, so the trad table at this stage is often conservative when it comes to the final points totals.)

You make a point about the APLT not revealing how many Par 1 games a side has left, so let's look at that.

Man Utd have played 5 Par 1s, scoring 7pts (1.4ppg) and 8 Par 3s, scoring 20pts (2.5ppg)
Sticking to that form would give them 16.8 from their Par 1s and 65 from their Par 3s. Or about 82 points.

So three different "models" all show that Man Utd should be on course for either 84, 81 or 82 points.
(And they aren't even anyone's favourites to win the league.)


Please, let's not use the APLT to make predictions because it doesn't predict anything, it's only good for comparing teams and their points on the table vs the difficulty of their fixtures. Us vs Spurs being the prime example this season. The table has shown many times that forms vary wildly during a season. If you used the same methodology on United on last season's table, they should have finished with less than 50 points! This season, United haven't had any major slip ups, but what the expected goals for and against stats suggest is that they're bound to do just that some time during the season because of their awful attack. One or two slip ups from them and they're way below 80 points according to the APLT.


Obviously, form can drop or improve, but the trends so far don't seem to support such an unusually low total at the end of the season.

The final total of the league winner hasn't been as low as 79 since the turn of the century, I just don't see a dramatic enough shift in results to date to support that low a total at the end of the season. There isn't an "81% chance" of anything just because of an unsupported graph. According to that, the most likely outcome is 79, followed by 78 (!) and then 80 points. History suggests otherwise, and without further information, that's usually the safest guide.

It could be that there is a sound reasoning behind that graph, but without knowing what it is, it's not possible to judge, so all I can say is that to me, that seems an extreme conclusion. We'll find out by May, though.

Again, you're misunderstanding how chances work. You're already singling out 79, 78 and 80 out of that table when he chance of that happening is slightly more than 1/4th. The same is true for 81-84 for example, but 71-77 has less than both. Alternatively, there's a 51% chance that the winner will get 80+, and 49% of 79-. The whole point of the calculation is to show that the bigger teams are dropping more points than usual, that there's not a single clear front runner, and that the best teams are not playing well enough to earn 85+ points on a reasonable level until the end unless they get really lucky or their form improves tremendously (and by form I mean their stats, not actual results).
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Offline Blinis

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #452 on: November 26, 2015, 06:04:09 pm »
They're right there, in the graph. It's made by @colinttrainor, which a quick google search would reveal his twitter and the fact that he makes articles for statsbomb. Those stats are based on the usual XG and XGA, PDO, the usual stuff that tells you the quality of a side and their true form compared to their results. Extrapolating that over 10k simulations and you get that table. It's certainly more reliable than the APLT.

Probably not, partly because it's not build with the same idea in mind.

Those stats, using XG, XGA and "the usual stuff", are basically form tables. Quite sophisticated, but form tables anyway. They are the same stats that predicted last November that it would take 65 to make 4th, and took the opposite stance in January predicting that it would take 75 to make 4th. They are not as informative as some think they are. (I would love to have deeper comparative statics for these models: how much are they sensible to form switches?)

Prof's APLT works a different way, also heavily depending on form, but with some simple insights, leaving all of us to make our own ideas about it. To simply be able to check and compare what are the remaining par 1 and par 3 for each team to put the current APLT in perspective is a very nice property of Prof's work, which I think is missing in "the other stuff".

Occam's razor etc.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 06:16:49 pm by Blinis »
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #453 on: November 26, 2015, 06:55:48 pm »
You can't use Occam's razor in stats. This isn't philosophy, you can't easily define what 'simple' means in statistics, otherwise simple formulas would outperform more complicated ones most of the time, which is clearly not the case. I don't remember what those tables predicted during those points last season, but even if they did what you said, they're still valid because predictions change with every result (although I don't think they predicted an exact number, but as with the table above, a spread).

And honestly, I don't know why it's so hard to believe that the title winner might finish with less than 80 this season? Last season, City finished on 79 points, and this season they're a point better off in the APLT and a point worse off in the real table compared to the same stage last season, yet they're head on with Arsenal as favorites for the title because there's no Chelsea this time around. Of course a prediction is going to be around 80 for the title this time around.

Also, here's for 4th:

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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #454 on: November 26, 2015, 07:05:14 pm »
You can't use Occam's razor in stats. This isn't philosophy, you can't easily define what 'simple' means in statistics, otherwise simple formulas would outperform more complicated ones most of the time, which is clearly not the case. I don't remember what those tables predicted during those points last season, but even if they did what you said, they're still valid because predictions change with every result (although I don't think they predicted an exact number, but as with the table above, a spread).

And honestly, I don't know why it's so hard to believe that the title winner might finish with less than 80 this season? Last season, City finished on 79 points, and this season they're a point better off in the APLT and a point worse off in the real table compared to the same stage last season, yet they're head on with Arsenal as favorites for the title because there's no Chelsea this time around. Of course a prediction is going to be around 80 for the title this time around.

Also, here's for 4th:


That's an interesting graph. Chelsea might have a chance for 4th after all if there's only about 50% chance that you need 68+ to get 4th. They'd still need to play pretty damn close to Champions though.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #455 on: November 26, 2015, 10:22:36 pm »
They're right there, in the graph. It's made by @colinttrainor, which a quick google search would reveal his twitter and the fact that he makes articles for statsbomb. Those stats are based on the usual XG and XGA, PDO, the usual stuff that tells you the quality of a side and their true form compared to their results. Extrapolating that over 10k simulations and you get that table. It's certainly more reliable than the APLT.

Well, you posted it, and when asked you claimed you had no idea what the methodology was. I assume people know their own stuff, which is why I asked in the first place!

What was he predicting this time last season, out of interest?

Quote
Please, let's not use the APLT to make predictions because it doesn't predict anything, it's only good for comparing teams and their points on the table vs the difficulty of their fixtures. Us vs Spurs being the prime example this season. The table has shown many times that forms vary wildly during a season. If you used the same methodology on United on last season's table, they should have finished with less than 50 points! This season, United haven't had any major slip ups, but what the expected goals for and against stats suggest is that they're bound to do just that some time during the season because of their awful attack. One or two slip ups from them and they're way below 80 points according to the APLT.

I agree it isn't any good for predicting things, what I'm doing is taking an overview of several sources and seeing if there is an identifiable trend visible. I included the APLT in that, because we're in the APLT thread more than anything else.

The fact the APLT is not a particularly useful predictor is neither here nor there, I was using it to give you an example of a methodology to show you why that is important and how a methodology will inform your figures.

I would still expect such a serious drop in final points to become clear at some point, and a drop as dramatic as that, to the lowest winning score in a century, would be unusual, so I would expect there to be some unusual signs if it is in fact possible to predict such a thing in the first place. I've only done a cursory look over the figures, so it is perfectly possible there is an anomaly there that I have missed.

Quote
Again, you're misunderstanding how chances work. You're already singling out 79, 78 and 80 out of that table when he chance of that happening is slightly more than 1/4th. The same is true for 81-84 for example, but 71-77 has less than both. Alternatively, there's a 51% chance that the winner will get 80+, and 49% of 79-. The whole point of the calculation is to show that the bigger teams are dropping more points than usual, that there's not a single clear front runner, and that the best teams are not playing well enough to earn 85+ points on a reasonable level until the end unless they get really lucky or their form improves tremendously (and by form I mean their stats, not actual results).

Thanks for the explanation, however that graph clearly gives a greater probability to 79% than it does to any other individual total (10%), and a greater probability to the range 78-80 (28%) than to any other three point range. All I'm saying is that looks low to me, and that's why I asked what the methodology was, and you said "dunno" and when I said that was important you said "How so?"

If you don't want me to answer your questions, please stop asking them! ;)
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Offline Blinis

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #456 on: November 27, 2015, 11:20:37 am »
You can't use Occam's razor in stats. This isn't philosophy, you can't easily define what 'simple' means in statistics, otherwise simple formulas would outperform more complicated ones most of the time, which is clearly not the case.

Of course you can, people do it all the time. Adjusted R-square, Information criterion... a lot of criteria for model selection view simplicity (scarcity) as a positive thing.

I don't remember what those tables predicted during those points last season, but even if they did what you said, they're still valid because predictions change with every result (although I don't think they predicted an exact number, but as with the table above, a spread).

Yeah, because they are sophisticated form tables.

To get the actual number predicted, you just have to compute the expectation (=average) of this distribution. Basically what you give us is an estimated distribution of the required number of points to win the league. You can get the expected number of points requiered to win the league by taking the expectation of this distribution.

And honestly, I don't know why it's so hard to believe that the title winner might finish with less than 80 this season? Last season, City finished on 79 points, and this season they're a point better off in the APLT and a point worse off in the real table compared to the same stage last season, yet they're head on with Arsenal as favorites for the title because there's no Chelsea this time around. Of course a prediction is going to be around 80 for the title this time around.

This argument (which is not the one of the model you advocate for) does not take into account the remaining fixtures that may be easier than the previous ones. Your prediction might be the best available with this season data, but according to historical data we have some legitimate doubts.
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Offline johnny74

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #457 on: November 27, 2015, 03:07:14 pm »
There is almost always a downward trend, that's pretty much how the APLT works. Big teams play one another the same number of times every season, and at this stage, there are always more than half of those games remaining.

The methodology is vital, because that is all that the graph represents. If it has assumptions to begin with, then it is those assumptions which are telling, rather than the graph itself. Simply presenting your opinions in graphical form doesn't magically lend them any special regard, so without the methodology, that's a useless graphic. If you are right and it is assuming that lower teams will take more points than normal off the top four, then it's that assumption which we need to examine. Where is that coming from, and how reliable is it?

We're at (slightly) over a third of the way through the season, so one thing that might be worth looking at is tripling everyone's APLT totals so far and seeing what that gets us.

Man Utd would be on -6, Man City on -9, Arsenal and Liverpool on -15. That suggests a final total somewhere around:

Man Utd: 84+
Man City: 81+
Arsenal: 75+
Liverpool 75+

And if we try something similar with the trad table, we get this:

Man Utd: 81
Man City: 78
Arsenal: 78
Spurs: 72

(What neither table tells you is that title winners tend to go on good runs in the second half of the season, so the trad table at this stage is often conservative when it comes to the final points totals.)

You make a point about the APLT not revealing how many Par 1 games a side has left, so let's look at that.

Man Utd have played 5 Par 1s, scoring 7pts (1.4ppg) and 8 Par 3s, scoring 20pts (2.5ppg)
Sticking to that form would give them 16.8 from their Par 1s and 65 from their Par 3s. Or about 82 points.

So three different "models" all show that Man Utd should be on course for either 84, 81 or 82 points.
(And they aren't even anyone's favourites to win the league.)

Obviously, form can drop or improve, but the trends so far don't seem to support such an unusually low total at the end of the season.

The final total of the league winner hasn't been as low as 79 since the turn of the century, I just don't see a dramatic enough shift in results to date to support that low a total at the end of the season. There isn't an "81% chance" of anything just because of an unsupported graph. According to that, the most likely outcome is 79, followed by 78 (!) and then 80 points. History suggests otherwise, and without further information, that's usually the safest guide.

It could be that there is a sound reasoning behind that graph, but without knowing what it is, it's not possible to judge, so all I can say is that to me, that seems an extreme conclusion. We'll find out by May, though.

I would definitely put Utd on course for the league title. Clear favourites. Everytime they play now I expect them to get a win. Not the case with either City or Arsenal.

How many clean sheets have they had? They are doing an Arsenal mid-80s and they are doing it with shit defenders and a fat Rooney.

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #458 on: November 27, 2015, 03:31:31 pm »
I would definitely put Utd on course for the league title. Clear favourites. Everytime they play now I expect them to get a win. Not the case with either City or Arsenal.

How many clean sheets have they had? They are doing an Arsenal mid-80s and they are doing it with shit defenders and a fat Rooney.
The "favourites" tag has gone from "unstoppable" City (who then suffer inconsistency as usual), to Arsenal (who then suffer injuries, as usual), to United. It'll change again without a doubt.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #459 on: November 27, 2015, 03:35:37 pm »
Big weekend for the APLT coming up, with lots of tricky par 3's and head-to-head games:

United       -2  (par 3 at Leicester)
City           -3  (par 3 vs Southampton)
Arsenal      -5  (par 3 at Norwich)
Liverpool    -5  (par 3 vs Swansea)
Leicester    -5  (par 3 vs United)
Everton      -7  (par 3 at Bournemouth)
West Ham  -8   (par 3 vs WBA)
Spurs         -9  (par 3 vs Chelsea)
Saints       -13  (par 1 at City)
Chelsea     -15  (par 1 at Spurs)

If we win and City/United fail to win their tough games we'll be right in the mix at the top... In fact, a Leicester win and City draw would put 5 teams on -5 (assuming that Arsenal and ourselves win).

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #460 on: November 27, 2015, 05:35:07 pm »
Well, you posted it, and when asked you claimed you had no idea what the methodology was. I assume people know their own stuff, which is why I asked in the first place!

What was he predicting this time last season, out of interest?

I agree it isn't any good for predicting things, what I'm doing is taking an overview of several sources and seeing if there is an identifiable trend visible. I included the APLT in that, because we're in the APLT thread more than anything else.

The fact the APLT is not a particularly useful predictor is neither here nor there, I was using it to give you an example of a methodology to show you why that is important and how a methodology will inform your figures.

I would still expect such a serious drop in final points to become clear at some point, and a drop as dramatic as that, to the lowest winning score in a century, would be unusual, so I would expect there to be some unusual signs if it is in fact possible to predict such a thing in the first place. I've only done a cursory look over the figures, so it is perfectly possible there is an anomaly there that I have missed.

Thanks for the explanation, however that graph clearly gives a greater probability to 79% than it does to any other individual total (10%), and a greater probability to the range 78-80 (28%) than to any other three point range. All I'm saying is that looks low to me, and that's why I asked what the methodology was, and you said "dunno" and when I said that was important you said "How so?"

If you don't want me to answer your questions, please stop asking them! ;)

I think you're confusing the timeline here, by 'How so?' I meant how does the APLT table predict several teams to finish well above 80 points (which in my book means 85 or more). The dunno part came after that and I meant it more as in I don't know the specific way the table was calculated, but I assumed you were familiar with the Expected goals for and against methods which those tables rely upon.

And seriously, I don't want to head to twitter and ask the guy the exact formula he used to get the number because I'm sure it's fairly complicated for this thread, but I suspect it goes like this: simulate all the remaining games one by one, based on their previous stats, give each team a chance to score a goal based on their expected goals and the opponents expected goals to concede, make some adjustments for home and away games, then finally toss a virtual coin weighted by the final numbers, and write down the score, get the final table for the season. Then run this method 10,000 times, and get the graph above where out of 10,000 seasons, the winner finished at 79 points in 1,000 of those.

And as I've explained myself in the previous post, there's a pretty good reason to believe that that table is fairly accurate based on City's previous season.

Of course you can, people do it all the time. Adjusted R-square, Information criterion... a lot of criteria for model selection view simplicity (scarcity) as a positive thing.

Yeah, because they are sophisticated form tables.

To get the actual number predicted, you just have to compute the expectation (=average) of this distribution. Basically what you give us is an estimated distribution of the required number of points to win the league. You can get the expected number of points requiered to win the league by taking the expectation of this distribution.

There's only a 51% chance that 80 points will land you the title. Does this mean you will get the title with 80? Since you're so well acquainted with statistics, I'm sure you understand that that's not how it works. They may be sophisticated form tables, but they also are more accurate. You can't use Occam's Razor here because razors are philosophical tools that should be used where you can't do science and test out things. Math is pure science and should never rely on Occam's Razor.

This argument (which is not the one of the model you advocate for) does not take into account the remaining fixtures that may be easier than the previous ones. Your prediction might be the best available with this season data, but according to historical data we have some legitimate doubts.

I'm pretty sure the APLT does exactly that, so I'm not sure what your argument here is since City are only a single point better off than last season this time on the APLT. And this season is already an unusual one and shouldn't rely on historical data. We have an equal number of home vs away wins, which is a pretty good indicator that things are way beyond the usual.

Big weekend for the APLT coming up, with lots of tricky par 3's and head-to-head games:

United       -2  (par 3 at Leicester)
City           -3  (par 3 vs Southampton)
Arsenal      -5  (par 3 at Norwich)
Liverpool    -5  (par 3 vs Swansea)
Leicester    -5  (par 3 vs United)
Everton      -7  (par 3 at Bournemouth)
West Ham  -8   (par 3 vs WBA)
Spurs         -9  (par 3 vs Chelsea)
Saints       -13  (par 1 at City)
Chelsea     -15  (par 1 at Spurs)

If we win and City/United fail to win their tough games we'll be right in the mix at the top... In fact, a Leicester win and City draw would put 5 teams on -5 (assuming that Arsenal and ourselves win).


Leicester should be par 1 btw. We really need to win this and the next 5-6 games.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #461 on: November 27, 2015, 06:10:25 pm »
I think you're confusing the timeline here, by 'How so?' I meant how does the APLT table predict several teams to finish well above 80 points (which in my book means 85 or more). The dunno part came after that and I meant it more as in I don't know the specific way the table was calculated, but I assumed you were familiar with the Expected goals for and against methods which those tables rely upon.

And seriously, I don't want to head to twitter and ask the guy the exact formula he used to get the number because I'm sure it's fairly complicated for this thread, but I suspect it goes like this: simulate all the remaining games one by one, based on their previous stats, give each team a chance to score a goal based on their expected goals and the opponents expected goals to concede, make some adjustments for home and away games, then finally toss a virtual coin weighted by the final numbers, and write down the score, get the final table for the season. Then run this method 10,000 times, and get the graph above where out of 10,000 seasons, the winner finished at 79 points in 1,000 of those.

I get you, think we were at cross purposes there. A vague explanation of the sort of methods used was all I was after.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #462 on: November 27, 2015, 06:30:57 pm »
Deo, I think the sample size to change Leicester to a par 1 is too small. They may have beaten the dross consistently, but so far theyve only played twice against top teams, losing to Arsenal 5-2 and drawing with Spurs 1-1 (both at home), so there's still no evidence that they're worthy of par 1 status.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #463 on: November 27, 2015, 06:46:41 pm »
Deo, I think the sample size to change Leicester to a par 1 is too small. They may have beaten the dross consistently, but so far theyve only played twice against top teams, losing to Arsenal 5-2 and drawing with Spurs 1-1 (both at home), so there's still no evidence that they're worthy of par 1 status.


Oh, sorry, I thought the game was at Old Trafford because I remembered United having played away last week. Guess there's a double home/away week for some teams this time...
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #464 on: November 27, 2015, 10:56:24 pm »
I'm loving the debate  :D

Just on this point...

Please, let's not use the APLT to make predictions because it doesn't predict anything, it's only good for comparing teams and their points on the table vs the difficulty of their fixtures.
Absolutely agree.  But to be fair, I assume the methodology behind the graph which predicts the likelihood of points required to win the title also has no more legitimacy to make predictions.  I believe it is calculated based on stats from the matches played so far.  You can't assume that form in the first third of the season will be consistent with the remainder of the season.  That applies to the APLT and any other model that uses data from that period of time.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #465 on: November 28, 2015, 05:23:35 pm »
Everton drop from -7 to -9 after their draw at Bournemouth (:lmao), and Saints lose their par 1 at City so they drop 1 point to -14. City stay on -3.

In the late game both United and Leicester drop two APLT points (as their game was a par 3 for both sides).

City           -3 
United       -4
Arsenal      -5  (par 3 at Norwich)
Liverpool    -5  (par 3 vs Swansea)
Leicester    -7
West Ham  -8   (par 3 vs WBA)
Spurs         -9  (par 3 vs Chelsea)
Everton      -9
Saints       -14
Chelsea     -15  (par 1 at Spurs)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 07:22:06 pm by rickardinho1 »

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #466 on: November 28, 2015, 05:58:33 pm »
Was going to say, at some point Leicester will need to become part of the conversation - even if they do drop off eventually.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #467 on: November 28, 2015, 06:45:59 pm »
Was going to say, at some point Leicester will need to become part of the conversation - even if they do drop off eventually.

Let that be after the next 5-6 games where they play almost all big teams...
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #468 on: November 28, 2015, 08:01:44 pm »
Now's the time to really press on....but, home game, after playing in Europe, against not a top team but one that can be dangerous....
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #469 on: November 28, 2015, 09:29:10 pm »
Imperative a win tomorrow , we'd be four points off top four after all the hard aways and only two par points off the leaders on here ...it's just this hone form we need to sort and if we do so who knows were we will go

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #470 on: November 28, 2015, 11:23:50 pm »
I'm loving the debate  :D

Just on this point...Absolutely agree.  But to be fair, I assume the methodology behind the graph which predicts the likelihood of points required to win the title also has no more legitimacy to make predictions.  I believe it is calculated based on stats from the matches played so far.  You can't assume that form in the first third of the season will be consistent with the remainder of the season.  That applies to the APLT and any other model that uses data from that period of time.

Damn, missed this post.

Yes, of course, it's calculated exactly that way because swings in form are things that you cannot reliably predict, part of which are often caused due to injuries (which are incredibly random at times). But they're so far, from my experience, the most reliable predictors out of any model that I've seen, and they have their own way of weighting what the APLT does too, except that they calculate that based on the form of the teams they've faced instead of historical 'good' teams.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #471 on: November 28, 2015, 11:39:36 pm »
The "favourites" tag has gone from "unstoppable" City (who then suffer inconsistency as usual), to Arsenal (who then suffer injuries, as usual), to United. It'll change again without a doubt.
Read today that it was their(City's) first win since October?
Can that be right?
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In such a sumptuous festival of shite, I wouldn't be so quick to pick a winner..

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #472 on: November 28, 2015, 11:39:41 pm »
Let that be after the next 5-6 games where they play almost all big teams...

That's certainly true, although they've done very well so far and if they can come out of their run against the bigger teams with a respectable amount of points, then they have to be seen as a contender for top four.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #473 on: November 29, 2015, 12:04:01 am »
Read today that it was their(City's) first win since October?
Can that be right?
Yeah its right, though they only played 3 League games in November: 0-0 at Villa, 1-4 vs Liverpool, and then this. The international break took up half the month of November remember! Before today they had only 3 wins in 8 in the League (3w, 3d, 2l).

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #474 on: November 29, 2015, 12:11:18 am »
That's certainly true, although they've done very well so far and if they can come out of their run against the bigger teams with a respectable amount of points, then they have to be seen as a contender for top four.
I disagree. There's always a surprise team in the top places about 13 games in who falls away every season. In the last five seasons its been West Ham, West Brom, Newcastle (twice), and Bolton.

Injuries and/or loss of form or confidence are inevitable with any teams, and Leicester are very reliant on 3 players (Vardy, Mahrez, and Schmeichel) who will all suffer dips at some stage or another. Don't rule out the possibility of someone signing Mahrez in January either; he's still only 24 and probably has a few teams interested.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #475 on: November 29, 2015, 01:56:17 pm »
Another chance for Chelsea to gain 2 points and get back up the table gone there, and Spurs drop 2.

Great result for us, now we need to turn around our home form
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #476 on: November 29, 2015, 01:59:52 pm »
Yeah a great result for us - and not terrible for Chelsea either really. Honestly, the league is so average across the board this season, we've really got a chance to stake a claim nearer to the top. Guess we'll find out in a few hours if we can begin that run.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #477 on: November 29, 2015, 02:02:57 pm »
Spurs drop another two points to -11, Chelsea stay on -15. Great result for us.

City           -3 
United       -4
Arsenal      -5  (par 3 at Norwich)
Liverpool    -5  (par 3 vs Swansea)
Leicester    -7
West Ham  -8   (par 3 vs WBA)
Everton      -9
Spurs        -11
Saints       -14
Chelsea     -15 

Could be an excellent weekend for us if we win given that everyone but City have dropped points so far.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 02:08:44 pm by rickardinho1 »

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #478 on: November 29, 2015, 02:16:36 pm »
Yeah a great result for us - and not terrible for Chelsea either really. Honestly, the league is so average across the board this season, we've really got a chance to stake a claim nearer to the top. Guess we'll find out in a few hours if we can begin that run.

Pretty bad result for Chelsea IMO. If you're just looking at it on its own then it's a perfectly respectable result away to a good side, but in the context of their season it's one they can't afford. It's more dropped points and it's a missed opportunity to take points off one of the sides they need to catch for the top 4 (and a side coming off the back of a 2500km Europa League jaunt at that). They're now 12 points (and likely 14 after Arsenal play today) off 4th, 10 off Spurs, and 6/7/9 off us. And their goal difference is so poor that it's likely they'll need to pass Spurs, not just catch them (Spurs have a +19 advantage currently). This is why their start was so damaging because it skews everything that follows. They can no longer afford decent results because of the hole they've dug themselves.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 02:18:32 pm by Vork+The Knights of Good »
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #479 on: November 29, 2015, 02:20:37 pm »
Pretty bad result for Chelsea IMO. If you're just looking at it on its own then it's a perfectly respectable result away to a good side, but in the context of their season it's one they can't afford. It's more dropped points and it's a missed opportunity to take points off one of the sides they need to catch for the top 4. They're now 12 points (and likely 14 after Arsenal play today) off 4th, 10 off Spurs, and 6/7/9 off us. And their goal difference is so poor that it's likely they'll need to pass Spurs, not just catch them (Spurs have a +19 advantage currently). This is why their start was so damaging because it skews everything that follows. They can no longer afford decent results because of the hole they've dug themselves.

In terms of the APLT it's not a bad result but something the APLT doesn't address is the affect on the belief of the Chelsea players. Going into future matches knowing how far behind they are and also that they've failed to win yet another game is likely to hinder their future performances I would have thought.
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