Author Topic: To DM Or Not To DM  (Read 100659 times)

Offline Sangria

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #120 on: June 14, 2015, 09:12:59 am »
I suppose the issue is getting the ball to them...a 'spring' when we are countering from deep. ..worked a treat with gerrard and suarez in the side as it gave us a range. ...coutinho benefitted, sterling benefitted and sturridge added to the threat

Now we cumbersome coming out from defence and coutinho does not get serviced early enough to break quickly...we have players who can play in different systems, but didn't apply any playing styles and systems consistently last season, so we have become confused and players have suffered

Within our current squad, the player who provides Coutinho with the best service is not a Rodgers player, and probably won't be a Liverpool player by the end of the window. So if our gameplan is based around Coutinho as playmaker for the attack, then that's another inconsistency between bits of what we aim to do, another instance of us recognising that something doesn't fit, but not what does.
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Offline Euskadi

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #121 on: June 14, 2015, 11:01:45 am »
Honesly, it depends how your overall system works and what you're defining as a 'DM'. For example, I would say that Busquets is a DM - he's not a destroyer per se in that his game is so, so much more than that and his ability in possession is extraordinary but he still plays a DM role. He still has a focus on breaking up play, he still has a focus on providing cover in possession and not losing his position, he'll drop into space when needed and allow other players freedom knowing that he can cover. For all intents and purposes, he is a DM. At the same time, there's clearly a lot of difference between him and Matic for example.

For me a DM is a midfielder who has a primary defensive focus. What I mean by that is that a midfielder whose contributions within the system are primarily or at least sizeably defensive can be described as a DM. Obviously it's not quite as simple as that and there are caveats to that but I think it's important to both distinguish between a role and a position. Unfortunately we're kind of stuck in that positions are often used as an indication of role and as such it's difficult to sum up where and what a player does, especially in a time when someone like Guardiola has made it difficult to define someone by their position.

For example, if we play Coutinho on the left, is he a LW? His role isn't that of a winger but he's playing in that position, that area of the field. So what do you call him? Gerrard last season primarily played deep because of his passing. Yet he was playing in that area of the pitch that has generally been thought of as a defensive area. Guardiola played there as well and yet Cruyff said he couldn't defend. Gattuso didn't play in the deepest position in midfield when he was at Milan; Pirlo did. Yet his primary contribution was hardly an attacking one. So do you call him a defensive midfielder or do you call Pirlo a defensive midfielder? I remember when Mourinho played Khedira as Real Madrid's highest midfielder in one match, yet the primary reason for doing so was for his ability in pressing - a defensive one. Was he play as a defensive midfielder even though he was the highest midfielder on the pitch?

This is one of the things that makes it difficult to define. A player could be playing further up the pitch than another player yet doing more of a defensive job than that deeper player. You also can't label all defensive midfielders as destroyers because that's not the only criteria for a player being defensive.

So for me, I think there is a certain amount of common sense involved when labelling a player a DM. If their primary skill and focus is a defensive one, be it breaking up play or covering space or their work rate defensively or their intelligence in holding a position then they might be labelled a DM. Do we need a player who has, among his primary focuses in our system, a defensive focus? Whose role is more of a defensive one than the others in midfield? Yes. Do we need that at the base of our midfield? Yes and I'd say because of Rodgers' open system, it's almost a necessity. Even when we played Gerrard as the pivot, we still had the likes of Henderson and Allen contributing a huge amount defensively and covering a lot of ground for him. Even then, that wasn't enough.

We don't need a destroyer per se and I think because of Rodgers' philosophy in terms of technical ability and intelligence in midfield, we will not and should not bring in a Momo Sissoko type player. I do however think we need a defensive midfielder (especially because of the passivity of our backline) who can and will control the space between the lines, who will help stop our back line defenders getting isolated 1v1 and who will cover space, as well as breaking up play.

Superbly written and very informative post Lankyguy. This should be posted in the thread of "quality posts you may have missed."
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Offline keyo

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #122 on: June 14, 2015, 02:31:06 pm »
Within our current squad, the player who provides Coutinho with the best service is not a Rodgers player, and probably won't be a Liverpool player by the end of the window. So if our gameplan is based around Coutinho as playmaker for the attack, then that's another inconsistency between bits of what we aim to do, another instance of us recognising that something doesn't fit, but not what does.

It feels a little like we are patchwork at the moment. It is like we went 'off piste' last summer and consequently neither built on the previous season, or prepared for some of the outgoings this summer. So to me the squad feels like it needs building and structuting. Does that mean a change in personnel? Or does it mean a re-moulding by rodgers of players and their roles? As much as players need to come in the main challenge for me is rodgers making the most of his hand, adding to it smartly and improving the players he brought in last summer. Midfield is an area that does appear confusing. The misfiring forwardline demands attention. But as pointed out lots of times - whether the players were suitable or not their performance was certainly much worse than many of us expected. But the midfield is difficult to predict in terms of players and shape. Milner henderson coutinho? Milner lucas henderson? Is Milner actually a midfielder and where on the pitch will our midfield sit? Nothing in our past makes it clear how we will set up. How clear does rodgers see it and how much is it dependent on personnel?

We will see how we shape up and if there is anything different from last season. I hope we see a bigger imprint of our style, and a stronger identity about our play. Maybe rodgers has a clear vision. Maybe the set backs from last season have knocked him domewhat and caused him to change some of his plans and vision. Or maybe he feels he is starting afresh. We will see.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2015, 02:59:56 pm »
It feels a little like we are patchwork at the moment. It is like we went 'off piste' last summer and consequently neither built on the previous season, or prepared for some of the outgoings this summer. So to me the squad feels like it needs building and structuting. Does that mean a change in personnel? Or does it mean a re-moulding by rodgers of players and their roles? As much as players need to come in the main challenge for me is rodgers making the most of his hand, adding to it smartly and improving the players he brought in last summer. Midfield is an area that does appear confusing. The misfiring forwardline demands attention. But as pointed out lots of times - whether the players were suitable or not their performance was certainly much worse than many of us expected. But the midfield is difficult to predict in terms of players and shape. Milner henderson coutinho? Milner lucas henderson? Is Milner actually a midfielder and where on the pitch will our midfield sit? Nothing in our past makes it clear how we will set up. How clear does rodgers see it and how much is it dependent on personnel?

We will see how we shape up and if there is anything different from last season. I hope we see a bigger imprint of our style, and a stronger identity about our play. Maybe rodgers has a clear vision. Maybe the set backs from last season have knocked him domewhat and caused him to change some of his plans and vision. Or maybe he feels he is starting afresh. We will see.

There are 2 things we are certain of about the midfield. Lucas is not a Rodgers player and will be gone. Any player we try in the midfield will need a modicum of defensive ability, or he will be moved to no.10 prior to being moved out. So our midfield will consist of players who aren't defensive experts, but who aren't defensively devoid either. Whether they're passers or runners, we don't know, as we've been linked to both (but not DMs). In other words, we know what the midfield won't be, but we don't know what it will be.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline WaltonRed

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #124 on: June 15, 2015, 09:45:09 am »
All I know is that I've never ever seen a liverpool side so vulnerable through the middle as we were for large parts of last season.  We had the "softest" midfield I can ever remember.

There might be clever ways to remedy this by not utilising a purely defensive / negative / break it up / sit in front of defence player. 

But I would feel a lot more comfortable if we had one. 

Offline Redrider

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #125 on: June 23, 2015, 11:59:02 am »
My long held complaint about the lack of competitive bite in mid-field eloquently and more knowledgably expressed than I could in the following article from Dave Usher on ESPN Sport:

Rodgers continues to ignore defensive midfield in his Liverpool revamp

David Usher.

Liverpool have signed four players already this summer (Joseph Gomez, Danny Ings, James Milner and Ádám Bogdán) and been linked with dozens more, but none of the new arrivals -- nor any of those other reported targets -- occupy a position that many supporters would argue should have been a priority for some time; defensive midfield.

It's a curious situation, particularly as the two players who have filled the role in recent years have left the club or appear to be leaving.

So far, this summer the Reds have been linked to countless strikers, full backs and even creative, attacking midfield players. However, links to defensive midfielders have been few and far between, even though Steven Gerrard (not a defensive player per se but the one who usually filled the role in front of the defence) is gone and there is great uncertainty over the future of Lucas Leiva, the one natural player that Liverpool have for that role.

Many supporters would regard a player who can shield the defence as a major priority for Liverpool, perhaps second only to acquiring a top level goalscorer. When Kopites on social media and web forums draw up their fantasy shopping lists ahead of every transfer window, a holding midfield player usually features prominently on most of them. Yet when the window has closed none have arrived and very few have even been linked, because the one man who counts - manager Brendan Rodgers -- has seemingly little interest in acquiring one.

Rodgers has been in charge for three years and this is his seventh transfer window. So far 28 players have been signed under his watch but only one, Emre Can, could possibly be described as a defensive midfield player and even he has barely been used there, which makes the decision to persist with him at right back in the relatively "meaningless" final few games of last season all the more puzzling.

Why would you not want to take a look at him in his supposed "natural position" to give an indicator of whether he can be the long term answer there? It made little sense and begs the question; was he even signed with that position in mind? Presumably he can play there, although Rodgers' reluctance to try it does raise some serious doubts.

Most managers prefer a "destroyer" in central midfield and at the top clubs those players can also play a fair bit too, Nemanja Matic at Chelsea and Sergio Busquets at Barcelona being prime examples.

Rodgers appears to favour a playmaker over a protector, which is why Lucas has not been an automatic choice despite clearly being the most adept at shielding Liverpool's often suspect defence. Many Kopites would walk over hot coals to get Javier Mascherano back to the club and yet it's debatable whether Rodgers would even find a place in his side for him!

Nothing that has happened so far during this transfer window suggests that he about to change his stance on having the midfield "enforcer" the fans crave either. Milner has been brought in to play centrally and with Jordan Henderson as close to being an automatic starter as anybody in the squad, so unless Rodgers plans on reverting back to the midfield diamond that proved so effective in 2013-14 that only leaves one midfield spot up for grabs. Presumably it will be filled by an attacking player such as Philippe Coutinho or Adam Lallana.

This would explain why there are so few links to defensive midfielders. After all, it's not like there are none out there who fit the bill and provide an upgrade on the likable but somewhat limited Lucas.

It's interesting that Geoffrey Kondogbia has just signed for Inter Milan from Monaco. He's a name you often see put forward by Liverpool supporters as the kind of player the Reds' midfield lacks (and he is apparently a huge Liverpool fan), yet Rodgers showed no real interest in him. Perhaps, it was the lofty price tag (reported to be €40 million) that put him off, but more likely it's that he simply does not covet that type of player. If his top priority this summer was a player of that type, then presumably the money would be available to get one. It's not even his third or fourth priority, let alone his top one.

Rodgers' favourite shopping location is Southampton and yet he has reportedly not bid for either Morgan Schneiderlin or Victor Wanyama. Those poor lads must be feeling quite left out given how many of their teammates Rodgers has either signed or tried to sign. That type of player just doesn't float Brendan's boat it seems, but is it a co-incidence that Dejan Lovren looked much more assured when playing behind two strong protective midfield men?

Arsenal fans have been complaining for years about the lack of a strong anchor man, but Arsene Wenger persisted with small, ball playing midfielders such as Jack Wilshere, Santi Cazorla and Mikel Arteta in the centre and as a result Arsenal were often a soft touch in difficult games, particularly away from home.

Last season, Wenger compromised a little and introduced the more defensive-minded Francis Coquelin into his side and the results were there for all to see. The Frenchman isn't the world's best in the position by a long way, but having a player of that type in the team benefitted Arsenal a lot last year. He might not play every game, but he's there if the situation demands it.

Liverpool have had that with Lucas, but if he leaves then what? Joe Allen? Right now that seems a more realistic possibility than someone being brought in from outside the club. You can't take transfer speculation entirely seriously of course, there's a reason the summer is traditionally referred to as "silly season" in England, but when there is such a clear trend to the names being linked you can certainly take something from that.

The names may not always be accurate, but if a club is being linked with dozens of goalkeepers then it's not unreasonable to think they are on the lookout for a new goalkeeper. If that club is rarely, if ever, linked with goalkeepers then it's safe to assume they are fairly happy with what they have.

In Liverpool's case they're being linked with a different striker every day because they are desperately looking to add a top striker to their squad. How many defensive midfield players have Liverpool been seriously linked with this summer, or since Rodgers arrived for that matter? Hardly any, and that tells you a lot.

If Liverpool were in the market for that type of player, they'd be frequently linked to players who fit the mould as the nature of modern football means it's becoming increasingly difficult to keep interest in players out of the press. There are so many parties involved in transfers these days and all are working to their own agenda so leaks are inevitable. It's usually in somebody's best interests for transfer rumours to be made public as it will end up sweetening the deal for somebody (usually the player and agent). Of the dozens of players that Liverpool are linked with each week, some they will have a serious interest in, some they will merely have made an enquiry about and there'll be others they would not sign in a million years.

Rodgers may not be completely averse to signing a defensive midfielder should the opportunity present itself, but it certainly does not look like he's going out of his way to find one. There is still plenty of time for that to change, but in three years as Liverpool manager there has been nothing to suggest that he has any interest in doing so and to most supporters that makes very little sense.


Offline No Appreciation of Liverpool Opposition

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #126 on: June 25, 2015, 03:48:42 am »
I don't know why people think Lucas is going somewhere. He is our 2nd longest serving team member 28 years old on low wages and has played most of the games that Rodgers has had him available. Sure he is injured too much but hardly worth replacing on such low wages with negliable transfer fee and so good at what he does.
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Offline DanA

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #127 on: June 25, 2015, 04:08:22 am »
I agree with AOFS. Lucas is unlikely to be leaving.

That article above seems ridiculous to me, it implies we need a DM because Lucas is leaving and Can has barely played there but both points are poor ones. Can hasn't played there because we played Gerrard at DM. With Gerrard gone a spot has opened up, there's no indication that Lucas is leaving either. Sure if Lucas was to leave, we'd need a replacement DM but right now he's okay and there are more pressing needs which thankfully we seem to be addressing (goals, RB, LB).
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #128 on: June 25, 2015, 04:36:42 am »
I remember that discussion, I think it was suggested Kolo would be an able back up!

We need one and fast, Arsenal look a completely different proposition since Coquelin went into their side, he does his job and the attacking players do theirs,the balance is almost perfect.

Don't forget Wenger was happy to loan him out again, it was the player forced his way into the team.
Before that  they had Flamini who sadly is a shaow of his former self, otherwise he would have been worth apunt.

Offline sempi

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #129 on: June 25, 2015, 04:50:20 am »
The article above makes no mention that Lucas was converted into a DM. Who is to say that someone at the club or even in the kids couldn't do the same?
I have been saying for years that we had no cover for Lucas, and in fact under Rafa we had no real "destroyer until Mascherano came along.

Offline DanA

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #130 on: June 25, 2015, 05:20:29 am »
The article above makes no mention that Lucas was converted into a DM. Who is to say that someone at the club or even in the kids couldn't do the same?
I have been saying for years that we had no cover for Lucas, and in fact under Rafa we had no real "destroyer until Mascherano came along.

What was Momo Sissoho then
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Offline sempi

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #131 on: June 25, 2015, 05:22:59 am »
What was Momo Sissoho then
You tell me ! He was neither fish nor fowl, hence once we got Masch, he was gone!

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #132 on: June 25, 2015, 01:46:03 pm »
I'm quite liking these signings. But I still think we need a new DM.

Sakho gets injured a lot and I just don't trust Lovren, Skrtel and Mignolet.


I think the defence is going to cause us issues again next year
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #133 on: June 25, 2015, 01:57:38 pm »
I'm quite liking these signings. But I still think we need a new DM.

Sakho gets injured a lot and I just don't trust Lovren, Skrtel and Mignolet.


I think the defence is going to cause us issues again next year
I doubt Rodgers wants a DM to be honest. Partly that's down to the fact that he doesn't really like specialists and he doesn't like compartmentalising the midfield. I mean, if you look at the likes of Allen, Henderson, Lallana, Milner - none of them are defensive midfielders, none of them are deep-lying playmakers/registas, none of them could really be described as no.10s in the traditional sense or specialist goal-scoring midfielders. Even box-to-box midfielder only really applies to Henderson (and even for him, you could say it's arguable).

I'd much prefer it if we bought one, even if only because Rodgers' lack of defensive structure makes us a lot more open and more reliant on individuals anyway. In that situation you have to have  very good individual defenders and/or defend that area between the lines through good mutual understanding. The latter is the approach I imagine Rodgers is looking to take.
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #134 on: June 25, 2015, 02:10:29 pm »
I doubt Rodgers wants a DM to be honest. Partly that's down to the fact that he doesn't really like specialists and he doesn't like compartmentalising the midfield. I mean, if you look at the likes of Allen, Henderson, Lallana, Milner - none of them are defensive midfielders, none of them are deep-lying playmakers/registas, none of them could really be described as no.10s in the traditional sense or specialist goal-scoring midfielders. Even box-to-box midfielder only really applies to Henderson (and even for him, you could say it's arguable).

I'd much prefer it if we bought one, even if only because Rodgers' lack of defensive structure makes us a lot more open and more reliant on individuals anyway. In that situation you have to have  very good individual defenders and/or defend that area between the lines through good mutual understanding. The latter is the approach I imagine Rodgers is looking to take.

Lucas is our DM.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #135 on: June 25, 2015, 02:11:15 pm »
I'm quite liking these signings. But I still think we need a new DM.

Sakho gets injured a lot and I just don't trust Lovren, Skrtel and Mignolet.


I think the defence is going to cause us issues again next year

Lucas is our dm and one of the best in the league.

No team in the league has two Dms with the quality of Lucas so i don't think its necessarily a pressing concern.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #136 on: June 25, 2015, 02:14:54 pm »
Lucas is our dm and one of the best in the league.

No team in the league has two Dms with the quality of Lucas so i don't think its necessarily a pressing concern.

Lucas is getting injury prone. I think Emre Can is great but don't think he's a DM. I think Can, Henderson and Milner should be fighting for the 2 spots either side of the DM which if Lucas is ok. But I don't think we can rely on him anymore

Skrtel and Lovren also need help as without a DM they aren't good enough

If we can sell everyone we want I can see us having enough for someone like Carvalho but don't think Rodgers wants one
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 02:17:51 pm by clinical »
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #137 on: June 25, 2015, 02:15:42 pm »
Lucas is our DM.
And isn't particularly a favourite of Rodgers. He'll be the first player to drop out of midfield to make way for Milner or Firmino.

We can get better than Lucas anyway, certainly in terms of mobility (more important if we're moving to two CBs again rather than three) and in terms of injury record. I think it should be a priority to bring in a DM
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #138 on: June 25, 2015, 02:20:13 pm »
And isn't particularly a favourite of Rodgers. He'll be the first player to drop out of midfield to make way for Milner or Firmino.

We can get better than Lucas anyway, certainly in terms of mobility (more important if we're moving to two CBs again rather than three) and in terms of injury record. I think it should be a priority to bring in a DM

I'm not sure it was Lucas not being a favourite as Rodgers unwilling to leave Gerrard out of the team.
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #139 on: June 25, 2015, 02:26:46 pm »
And isn't particularly a favourite of Rodgers. He'll be the first player to drop out of midfield to make way for Milner or Firmino.

We can get better than Lucas anyway, certainly in terms of mobility (more important if we're moving to two CBs again rather than three) and in terms of injury record. I think it should be a priority to bring in a DM
Correct. The cloying levels of sentimentality regarding Lucas makes it almost impossible to have a rational discussion about him. It is clear Rodgers isn't keen on him, and has been for some, Probably he feels Lucas' mobility isn't enough for the most intensely fought over area of the pitch.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #140 on: June 25, 2015, 02:33:39 pm »
Under whatever name you call it, it's fucking preposterously stupid to only have one senior player in the club (Lucas) who's game is based around playing in deep midfield. It's not Joe Allen's game, it's not Jordan Henderson's game, it's not James Milner's game, it might be Emre Can's game (though he looks more like being similar to one of the previous two), especially when we were apparently "buying for the diamond" last summer, though I see no actual evidence of that other unsubstantiated rumours.

Seems to bloody obvious to go after a Cabaye or someone.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #141 on: June 25, 2015, 02:38:54 pm »
I have a horrible feeling Joe Allen will be first choice DM next year. I really hope I'm wrong. I feel like this is going to be a heated topic once the season starts. I can still see us being done on the counter. Just look what Matic did for Chelsea.

Honestly I find it staggering we're not after one. Lucas on top form is fine, but he seems to find the form and as soon as he does gets injured again. I think a DM helps our defence play better too. More confidence.

Thank Fowler we're not getting Caulker

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #142 on: June 25, 2015, 04:21:11 pm »
Illaramendi/Song/Schneiderlin

I feel a player of that type in behind the midfield is the last piece of the puzzle to our succes next season.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #143 on: June 25, 2015, 04:33:05 pm »
Illaramendi/Song/Schneiderlin

I feel a player of that type in behind the midfield is the last piece of the puzzle to our succes next season.
the schneiderlin would easily be our best dm/cm. I don't think people realise how good he is.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #144 on: June 25, 2015, 04:33:53 pm »
the schneiderlin would easily be our best dm/cm. I don't think people realise how good he is.

If the reports are true, we are competing with United and Arsenal for him, I doubt we'd get him.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #145 on: June 25, 2015, 06:02:15 pm »
If the reports are true, we are competing with United and Arsenal for him, I doubt we'd get him.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #146 on: June 25, 2015, 06:04:38 pm »

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #147 on: June 25, 2015, 06:35:32 pm »
I doubt Rodgers wants a DM to be honest. Partly that's down to the fact that he doesn't really like specialists and he doesn't like compartmentalising the midfield. I mean, if you look at the likes of Allen, Henderson, Lallana, Milner - none of them are defensive midfielders, none of them are deep-lying playmakers/registas, none of them could really be described as no.10s in the traditional sense or specialist goal-scoring midfielders. Even box-to-box midfielder only really applies to Henderson (and even for him, you could say it's arguable).

That's the problem though. You never really get a balance. Stick a specialised DM in and it comes together. We seen that with Lucas during the winning run as it gives a platform for the 5 in front to work.

It doesn't have to be a Makelele but just someone who can do a solid defensive job as well as distribute well enough. We should have got Schneiderlin last year instead of Lallana who we just didn't need. Carvalho or Illaremendi would do.

An attacking team without a defensive midfielder is like the Madrid Galacticos without Makelele.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 06:37:39 pm by Bitter Mug »
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #148 on: June 25, 2015, 07:04:09 pm »
That's the problem though. You never really get a balance. Stick a specialised DM in and it comes together. We seen that with Lucas during the winning run as it gives a platform for the 5 in front to work.

It doesn't have to be a Makelele but just someone who can do a solid defensive job as well as distribute well enough. We should have got Schneiderlin last year instead of Lallana who we just didn't need. Carvalho or Illaremendi would do.

An attacking team without a defensive midfielder is like the Madrid Galacticos without Makelele.
I half agree, half disagree. I don't think a team inherently needs a DM - partly that's because I have an endless respect for Arrigo Sacchi and I know that there's a lot of issues that stringent specialisation can lead to.

I do however think that practically it's much more useful and easier to play with one generally and I also think that because of our open structure, buying one becomes more important. How your team plays then dictates what specific skill-set your DM needs. We don't need a 'destroyer' per se; certainly they have to be good technically and decent in possession. A Momo Sissoko type player would not fit into a Rodgers team. As you say, distribution would be an essential attribute to whoever we bought for that role.

I disagree with the Illarramendi suggestion though - he's not a DM. Carvalho I'd be happy with, though he would be quite expensive and may take a little time to settle in properly.
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #149 on: June 25, 2015, 07:04:42 pm »
That's the problem though. You never really get a balance. Stick a specialised DM in and it comes together. We seen that with Lucas during the winning run as it gives a platform for the 5 in front to work.

It doesn't have to be a Makelele but just someone who can do a solid defensive job as well as distribute well enough. We should have got Schneiderlin last year instead of Lallana who we just didn't need. Carvalho or Illaremendi would do.

An attacking team without a defensive midfielder is like the Madrid Galacticos without Makelele.

Real Madrid were flying with Isco - Kroos - Modric - James/Bale as their midfield. Keeping plenty of cleansheets etc. I don't think a DM is needed for solidity if the whole team works hard pressing and tracking back. We all know this team ethic is something rodgers is looking to instill. Perhaps he thinks defending can be done as a team, and not necessarily with a dedicated DM. That would require a quite dramatic upturn in performances from our defenders however

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #150 on: June 25, 2015, 07:26:31 pm »
Real Madrid were flying with Isco - Kroos - Modric - James/Bale as their midfield. Keeping plenty of cleansheets etc. I don't think a DM is needed for solidity if the whole team works hard pressing and tracking back. We all know this team ethic is something rodgers is looking to instill. Perhaps he thinks defending can be done as a team, and not necessarily with a dedicated DM. That would require a quite dramatic upturn in performances from our defenders however

Real Madrid struggled defensively for a lot of the season and fell short in the big 3 competitions whereas Barcelona (with Busquets) won them all. Real will always win most games because they've got too many world class players but without Modric there was no real midfield control. I think if you don't have a DM then you need someone who can set the tempo or like Juve with Pirlo have the  likes of Marchisio and Vidal to put the work in and add the muscle around that player.

We haven't got a DM (bar Lucas still) and we don't have anyone to set the tempo either. We have midfielders who add bits and pieces.
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #151 on: June 25, 2015, 08:10:36 pm »
If Busquets is a DM, I think it would be nice to have another DM too. But a DM of his kind, who's great at reading the game and cover gaps, but just as much there for his ability the let the game flow and move the ball quickly to the attackers. There is a notable difference between him and Mascherano in this regard (or was in previous seasons anyway, I haven't watched them as closely as I used too), and it's no surprise that a passing side like Barca use the latter in defence rather than midfield more often than not. But players like that are surely hard to come by?

Thankfully we have an underrated, quite similar player in Lucas already. He isn't as good on the ball as Busquets, but his passing is acurate, clever and quick. He makes us tick, without being spectacular. He also reads the game very well, and he wins the ball better than any other player we got. Off course, he's injured quite a bit, and not exactly quick on the ground (but in his position how quick you are at reading the game is far more important) but I still believe we'll be fine between him, Can and Allen. Can has much to learn, but it seems like he could play in any position so why not try him there? He should prefer it over being a centre half at least and if it isn't working, Allen is a pretty good third option. He doesn't have Luxas ability to win the ball, but good positioning and his passing from that deep position is similar to Lucas' too. At least that is my impression.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #152 on: June 25, 2015, 08:43:25 pm »
DM is arguably the only position in the team to which Rodgers still hasn't recruited a player. We have played mostly Lucas and Gerrard there, who were here when Rodgers arrived.  I'm curious what he will do now. I have a fear that he will rely on Henderson and Milner, perhaps with Can in a trio. They can all do a good job defensively, but none of them has shown the kind of clever positioning and reading of the game that one expects from a DM. Lots of miles per game, but not so many interceptions and tackles won. It could get pretty chaotic with those three in midfield.

What I hope for is that he uses Lucas as DM, since that tends to win us games. Playing without a DM sounds good in theory, but seldom works.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 08:45:10 pm by jepovic »

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #153 on: June 25, 2015, 08:53:59 pm »
If Busquets is a DM, I think it would be nice to have another DM too. But a DM of his kind, who's great at reading the game and cover gaps, but just as much there for his ability the let the game flow and move the ball quickly to the attackers. There is a notable difference between him and Mascherano in this regard (or was in previous seasons anyway, I haven't watched them as closely as I used too), and it's no surprise that a passing side like Barca use the latter in defence rather than midfield more often than not. But players like that are surely hard to come by?

Thankfully we have an underrated, quite similar player in Lucas already. He isn't as good on the ball as Busquets, but his passing is acurate, clever and quick. He makes us tick, without being spectacular. He also reads the game very well, and he wins the ball better than any other player we got. Off course, he's injured quite a bit, and not exactly quick on the ground (but in his position how quick you are at reading the game is far more important) but I still believe we'll be fine between him, Can and Allen. Can has much to learn, but it seems like he could play in any position so why not try him there? He should prefer it over being a centre half at least and if it isn't working, Allen is a pretty good third option. He doesn't have Luxas ability to win the ball, but good positioning and his passing from that deep position is similar to Lucas' too. At least that is my impression.
Yes, Lucas is better than allen on the ball imo, but he is so slow and tentative these days. He always seems a fraction too slow for my liking

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #154 on: June 27, 2015, 08:34:08 am »
Confident prediction.
If Rodgers does not sign a reputable Defensive Midfield player he will not improve results sufficiently to retain his job beyond the next season and may even be lucky to make it beyond Christmas.
It has been a glaring weakness now for the entire period of Rodgers stewardship,which with th exception of signing Can he has consistently not addressed.
With the possible signinging of a Right Back, Rodgers may be hoping that Can may indeed may be released from a defensive role to be employed in mid-field this season, however this may not be enough to really tighten up our non-competitive mid-field.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #155 on: June 27, 2015, 09:03:05 am »
All I know is that I've never ever seen a liverpool side so vulnerable through the middle as we were for large parts of last season. 

We've been highly vulnerable without the ball in midfield since Mascherano left, save for the times when Lucas has been fit and on form.

Farcical situation when Rodgers has spent over £250m added to what Kenny and Hodgson spent and we've still not replaced Mascherano or even bought a DM or tough midfielder at all. Meireles, Adam, Henderson, Allen, Sahin, Lallana, Alberto, Milner, Can. None of those players are Mascherano, Hamann or Sissoko type of midfielders. It's no wonder we rarely have any balance in midfield and have been reliant on a player who was already there in Lucas to try and fill the void.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 09:10:12 am by Bitter Mug »
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #156 on: June 27, 2015, 09:13:40 am »
And isn't particularly a favourite of Rodgers. He'll be the first player to drop out of midfield to make way for Milner or Firmino.

We can get better than Lucas anyway, certainly in terms of mobility (more important if we're moving to two CBs again rather than three) and in terms of injury record. I think it should be a priority to bring in a DM

Just because he isn't the teacher's pet like Allen doesn't mean he doesn't get games. He played in 20 league games and 32 games in all comps last season. He was injured for another 7 league games so that's not bad going considering Gerrard was in the team.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #157 on: June 27, 2015, 12:38:07 pm »
Can is a fantastic player but for me acceleration is vital in the DM position. He has good top speed but takes a while to get going. Lucas was very fast over the first few yards which was why he was so good before injury. His top speed is average though but that didn't matter.

Can for me is a box to box midfield player. I'm not saying he won't play DM and be brilliant at it. He has it in him. He just misses that speed over the first few yards for me. which is need to get in a tackle or a block, or to cut out a through ball.

Mascherano was very quick over the first few yards and pretty much all the top DM are either have that trait or they are excellent at reading the game.

I think it's will be number 1 priority when our midfield continues to get over run. We won't score 100 goals in a season again, so we need to concede less. Also last season we lost the midfield battle too often, there was no one who set the tone of the play.

Emre Can could be the most important player for us next season if he's played DM. Lucas is ok, but he's not quite the same player he was, and I hope we don't try Allen in there too often. Ideally we would bring a DM in this summer, but failing that I think one will be top agenda come January 
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #158 on: June 27, 2015, 03:44:34 pm »
The number one attribute for a DM is IQ. We don't know if Can's is that high. And if it is he certainly won't have learnt how to best utilise it at his age. Lucas "gets away" with being a CL quality footballer (despite having few physical attributes and, really, only a polished set of fundamentals in terms of technique) because he is naturally smart and has clearly worked hard to make the most of that.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #159 on: June 27, 2015, 05:43:22 pm »
He really cant let his theoretical/philosophical stubbornness get in the way of this increasingly apparent fact that you pretty much have to get a DM or a player who may be box-to-box but is tipped toward the defensive end of the box-to-box spectrum in the Premier League and in any case if you haven't got world class possession football and top defenders (we certainly don't have either of those).

If we had a world class midfield that could dominate the midfield in 90% of matches or more, then fair enough. But we haven't.

We had that under Rafa and I watched us lose countless times due to not having enough top drawer forwards but I agree in theory about needing one.

::casts glance towards Song::