Author Topic: The Europa League conundrum  (Read 14563 times)

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The Europa League conundrum
« on: August 23, 2012, 10:27:09 am »
According to most you approach on the subject, Europe's second-tier competition is no longer meaningful. Some feel it lost its luster when it adopted the mock Champions League group stages, others when it dropped the UEFA Cup mantle. The decision to use the competition as a second nibble of the European entremets cannot have helped matters either. It's pretty much official: the Europa League is a trophy barely worth winning.

It wasn't always like this. English sides continually vied for it during the 1970s; Hugo Sanchez and Santillana illuminated for Real Madrid in the mid-1980s; Italian football showed its best qualities - Ronaldo, Crespo, Vialli, Baggio – throughout the 1990s. The tall, slender, silver Coupe UEFA may have been the little brother to the big-eared European Cup, but it was still a respected member of the family; now, chained up in the attic, it's allowed only to see daylight on one solitary May evening before being moved back into the shadows.

It doesn't have to be like this. It wasn't for Liverpool in 1973 or 1976, with both victories – the first against Borussia Moenchengladbach, the second against Club Brugge – providing the perfect platform to the four European Cups that would follow within the next decade, two of which came against their fallen UEFA Cup opponents. It wasn't like this for Liverpool in 2001, the last leg of Gerard Houllier's magnificent treble; how stunning Borussia Dortmund's Westfalenstadion looked as the travelling Kop bounced around upon their golden goal against Alaves, how stunning Istanbul proved to be three years later as Liverpool lifted their fifth European Cup.

Gerard Houllier's claim of Liverpool's 2005 Champions League winning side being his own was optimistic at best and egomaniacal at worst, but he did lay foundations with the UEFA Cup victory of 2001; Sami Hyypia, Jamie Carragher, Dietmar Hamann and Steven Gerrard all started that final, with all four having a major impact against AC Milan four years later. Not all of that can be attributed to their time in the UEFA Cup, but beating prestigious teams over two legs is a habit hard to shake.

Brendan Rodgers is facing a lot of conundrums in his first season at Anfield, but then, it's a puzzling football club he has taken control of. With Kenny Dalglish sacked for his failure to qualify for the Champions League, Rodgers knows the league must be prioritised. He also knows, however, the mantra that supporters maintain, straight from the mouth of Bill Shankly, etched into the subconscious of all: Liverpool Football Club exists to win trophies. It's a tough balance to strike. Steven Gerrard, Luis Suarez, Martin Skrtel and Glen Johnson will not feature, but that should not serve an indication over the commitment to Thursday's game.

"Our main objective is the league, there's no question about that. But certainly when you work at Liverpool, both as a player and a manager, every game is important,” said Rodgers in Wednesday's press conference. “We want to do well. The objective over the next two games is to get through into the group stages.”

It isn't just about a shiny trophy at the end of the season, either. Though his squad is small, and could possibly get smaller with potential departures of Jay Spearing and Charlie Adam, more competitive games would be welcome by Rodgers. It provides more chances for players to adapt to his ideas and system; more chance to play in pressured environments. Rodgers, a strong proponent of mentality, will want to give the likes of Jose Enrique, Joe Allen, Jordan Henderson and Stewart Downing the experience of featuring in must-win games against some of Europe's brightest sides. It worked well enough for the class of 2001, after all.

Liverpool's trip to Tynecastle may not be a must-win game and Hearts are hardly one of Europe's brightest sides, but it will be atmospheric, intense and difficult. It is a club that, like Liverpool, have suffered from boardroom issues over recent years; it is a club that, like Liverpool, have a point to prove. While Rodgers' side must recover from Saturday's defeat to West Brom, Hearts' rancour resides deeper than that. Just over a year ago, the Scottish side went down 5-0 at home to Tottenham at the same stage of this competition, something neither fans nor personnel will want a repeat of

Rodgers must be prepared for that, so too must the youthful element of his squad. Jack Robinson may feature at left back, while Raheem Sterling will almost certainly be given an opportunity to shine. The home leg against FC Gomel in the previous round was Rodgers' way of introducing Anfield to his style of play with full weaponry on show, but this is a chance for his young guns to experience competitive football going at full tilt. This isn't a pre-season friendly on a baseball field; there will be no polite applause. Sterling will be so close to the Hearts fans, he'll be able to hear their anger, see their contortions and smell the disdain that accompanies their pre-match meal.

Sterling will have experience nearby, however. Reina will retain his place in goal, while Lucas may get another run out as he looks to regain full match fitness. Daniel Agger could start too given his Premier League suspension, which rules him out of Sunday's game against Manchester City.

At this stage of the season, already, it's about boxing clever for Brendan Rodgers. This will be Liverpool's third fixture in this season's Europa League already. Successfully navigate the tie and it becomes at least 10. A run to the final will see them play 19 games in total – that's an extra half-season. It's no wonder people struggle to take the Europa League seriously. But Rodgers is a smart manager, a calculating manager; he knows he must keep Fenway Sports Group happy, as well as the supporters – and that's the one conundrum he's desperate to solve.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2012, 10:31:36 am »
It's an ideal chance to give youngsters a game (particularly the early rounds) and fringe players as well. The likes of Coates and Shelvey for example who didn't get much of a look-in last season and youngsters like Robinson, Sterling and maybe others like Suso and Morgan. It's a chance to try different things like Kelly at centre back and give Henderson a good run of games in central midfield.

If we can get to the knockouts then you can gradually take it a bit more seriously as you go along. What you can't do is go flat out for 19 games. Bilbao did it last season and by the time of their final they had nothing left and their league form went to shit.
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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 10:37:34 am »
Still a huge competition. IMO it's better than the FA cup and more difficult to win plus you get a shot at the Super Cup if you win the EL.  I'd rather have us win the EL than the FA cup this seaon

Offline jonjosuso

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2012, 10:49:34 am »
I honestly don't know who disses it. When Utd and City went in they both said they wanted to win it and fielded good sides. It's a great competition and this year is the strongest it's been ever probably. I would like to win it but would not risk star players, should let the fringe/youth find their legs.
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2012, 11:41:59 am »
In my opinion there is no better way for players in a new team to gel and understand a new managers philosophy than playing competitive matches. The more games these players play under Rodgers, the better they will understand his system and understand their role.

I really missed European football last season and think that Dalglish' team would have benefitted from the extra midweek games.

Clubs like Liverpool have a tradition of winning trophies, it is why we exist. People may mock the EL and Carling Cup but they great competitions to win.



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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 11:44:05 am »
I honestly despise 'Fans' that think any competition is 'below them'.

This modern snobbery involving the Europa League and the League Cup is absolutely disgusting and shows exactly how pathetic some football 'fans' are nowdays. To turn your nose up at trophies that the vast majority of clubs in England couldn't even dream of lifting one day is massively pathetic.
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Offline BEAST

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 11:45:07 am »
We should be in it to win it.

If the top dogs are experiencing fatigue play the kids in the LC instead.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 11:46:29 am »
fucks the fixture list up too much...for that reason Im out
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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 11:47:20 am »
The only thing wrong with the Europa League is the name. They should just call it the UEFA Cup, even if they kept the same format. Europa League somehow cheapens it.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 11:56:42 am »
fucks the fixture list up too much...for that reason Im out

As the OP say, 19 games if you go on to the final, thats rediculous.

They seriously need to sort the tournament out, go back to straight knock out, no dropping in of the CL teams that come 3rd in their group and let the winners go into the following season CL if you really want teams to take it seriously. Appreciate my last idea might be seen as devaluing the Europa cup as winnerswouldnt defend it but it would certainly increase its appeal to clubs.
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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 12:12:08 pm »
I'm with Andy on this one.

I love this trophy, and it seems to be for us, a precursor to winning Big Ears!

I remember in 2001 when we won it, the feelings of elation, joy, ecstasy. I thought and believed that we were finally on our way back - as it transpires, we were, but certain owners put a spanner in that plan, and we are still paying the price for it now.

What would count as a good season this year? Personally, I would love to win this one, and have a better showing in the league (Champions league places are unlikely, but I think we could still do it).

Offline williamson84

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 12:17:08 pm »
As above.  Let's go out and win this thing.  When it changed to Europa it was seen as a diddy cup by most if not all but it seems to have gathered some momentum in the last few seasons and there's some top top teams in it now.  Mix it up for the group games but when it gets to the knockouts let's go for it.  The momentum and mind set it could give our players and us as fans would be massive.

Offline liverbnz

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 12:18:35 pm »
I honestly despise 'Fans' that think any competition is 'below them'.


Do these 'fans' even exist? I know a lot of fans including myself would prioritise the league over the cups, but I haven't seen anyone say the competition is below them.
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Offline Il Capitano

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2012, 12:18:55 pm »
I think this sort of article is written every single time we've been in the Europa league for the last couple of years. It's a good trophy to win, but to be honest the colossal amount of games you have to play to get there has totally devalued the competition.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2012, 12:30:58 pm »
Given that the main motivating factor in football now is money, if UEFA want it to be taken seriously then they should take some of the money out of the CL pot and give it to the UEFA Cup winners (only the winners), that would make teams take it seriously.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2012, 12:32:35 pm »
I honestly don't know who disses it. When Utd and City went in they both said they wanted to win it and fielded good sides. It's a great competition and this year is the strongest it's been ever probably. I would like to win it but would not risk star players, should let the fringe/youth find their legs.

The two best teams in England took it seriously. That says it all. When decorated manager like Ferguson and Mancini take it seriously, and shite like O'neil, Redknapp, Megson etc don't, it's just laughable. Only shite managers in England don't respect the Europa League. Every other country takes it seriously.


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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2012, 12:36:07 pm »
Only shite managers in England don't respect the Europa League. Every other country takes it seriously.

Italian sides don't.

I think this sort of article is written every single time we've been in the Europa league for the last couple of years. It's a good trophy to win, but to be honest the colossal amount of games you have to play to get there has totally devalued the competition.

It isn't really about the Europa League, it's more about how Rodgers should approach it and the benefits of giving Downing, Allen, Henderson et al an opportunity to play in these sort of games.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2012, 12:41:05 pm »

I thought "luster" was spelt "lustre" but on checking it can be either - every day's a schoolday!

Good OP - I can't understand the mentality of fans who think the competition is below them. Even if we make the top four this year we are going to get booted straight out of the Champions League unless we have come to terms with learning how to play a European campaign alongside the league competition.
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Offline BirdBrain

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2012, 12:51:03 pm »
As the OP say, 19 games if you go on to the final, thats rediculous.

They seriously need to sort the tournament out, go back to straight knock out, no dropping in of the CL teams that come 3rd in their group and let the winners go into the following season CL if you really want teams to take it seriously. Appreciate my last idea might be seen as devaluing the Europa cup as winnerswouldnt defend it but it would certainly increase its appeal to clubs.
I agree, its potentially a very good tournament but it really needs looking at. The parachuting of the 3rd placed CL teams gives it the image of being a tournament of the European also rans and should be stopped. But the main problem is the attitude given to the group stages.  Because the group stages are so poor in quality and teams like Liverpool can put their 2nd string in and still qualify it devalues the whole thing, much the same way the Carling Cup is devalued. Make it eight groups instead of twelve for a start, the quality is immediately better.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2012, 12:53:01 pm »
Shiny, shiny. If wehave qualified for a competition then we should aim to win each competition. This club exists to win trophies. All this bullshit about the fixture list when we have dozens of professionals on our books is...bullshit.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2012, 12:59:31 pm »
Great opportunity to win a trophy and get European experience for the younger lads. Plus it's always fun coming up against these sides we've never played before - have we ever had a competitive match against Hearts until now?

Ultimately, I'd prefer one gigantic Euro-Super-Pyramid, but that's for another time.
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Offline Gerrards_Toe

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2012, 01:00:38 pm »
The Thursday/Sunday domestic fixtures can become a tad tiresome and mess with our focus on the league over the course of the season. And as with any fan, the league come first.

But, suppose its something to do on a Thursday.

Let's smash em.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2012, 01:01:00 pm »
la liga sides take it seriously and seem to win it every other year.

I like it, the quality of the football in the knockout stages actually surpasses the champions league games most seasons.

Some cracking ties last season
Both Bilbao spankings of the Mancs
Sportings game against City
Valencia PSV
Schalke Bilbao both legs
Valencia Madrid

and the final.
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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2012, 01:01:48 pm »
I agree, its potentially a very good tournament but it really needs looking at. The parachuting of the 3rd placed CL teams gives it the image of being a tournament of the European also rans and should be stopped. But the main problem is the attitude given to the group stages.  Because the group stages are so poor in quality and teams like Liverpool can put their 2nd string in and still qualify it devalues the whole thing, much the same way the Carling Cup is devalued. Make it eight groups instead of twelve for a start, the quality is immediately better.

group stages are so poor that a team better than us (Spurs) got knocked out last season? That doesnt make sense ;)
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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2012, 01:04:27 pm »
Still a huge competition. IMO it's better than the FA cup and more difficult to win plus you get a shot at the Super Cup if you win the EL.  I'd rather have us win the EL than the FA cup this seaon
UEFA could make all this go away by saying the winners of the Europa league get group stage entry to the Champions League next season. Reult of this? Instant interest and no-one would not take it seriously. There is no reason why not either.
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Offline BigT_85

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2012, 01:06:03 pm »
I think there is a widely renowned opinion that it's just another 'Mickey-Mouse Cup'

So is the League Cup apparently, but remember how good we all felt when we won that?!

Silverware feels good.


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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2012, 01:06:03 pm »
I'm made up just to be back in Europe. Don't care what cup it is, a trophy is a trophy. Me Arsenal mate took the piss out of me because I was looking forward to being in Europe and the Europa league but I don't care. Arsenal don't even challenge for anything anymore anyway no cups or leagues I told him but he was just happy to be in the CL. Ah well each to their own.
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Offline BirdBrain

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2012, 01:07:18 pm »
group stages are so poor that a team better than us (Spurs) got knocked out last season? That doesnt make sense ;)
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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2012, 01:09:04 pm »
We got to play to win this...it will be a boost to our league performance as well.  No to forget, there is a trip to Dam if we go all the way ;D
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Offline gazzalfc

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2012, 01:11:41 pm »
We are Liverpool. We exist to win trophies.

So many good reasons to make sure we give this our all this season

European football is still European football. Forget the B label. It is still a European competition against some quality football teams.

Football is football. We love watching Liverpool play and the more we see the happier we will be

More games give us more playing time for our squad.

More games mean more experience to be gained by the younger less experienced players

The final will be in the Amsterdam Arena. There will be one hell of an exodus from Liverpool airport if/when we make it on the 15th May ;)

Juventus and Inter are above is in terms of finals success. We win it and we'll be the most successful Europa league team of all time again.

People may not like what I'm about to say next but....

In terms of European football we are back to where we were in 2001-2003. We were not 4th place/Champions league playing side back then and we were written off time and time again. But the UEFA cup was our chance to build some solid European football experience into some of the players who didn't have it.

And it was that experience that was built under Houllier that was there when Benitez arrived at the club and he took us to Champions league glory.

Those days will return but right now we need to build
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 01:16:38 pm by gazzalfc »

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2012, 01:13:42 pm »
...

Great article that. Thanks for posting! It's of paramount importance we aim to win every single game, in every competition we play in! That night against Alavés was one of the very best I have experienced as a LFC supporter, just wish I could have afforded to have been their in person!

I honestly despise 'Fans' that think any competition is 'below them'.

This modern snobbery involving the Europa League and the League Cup is absolutely disgusting and shows exactly how pathetic some football 'fans' are nowdays. To turn your nose up at trophies that the vast majority of clubs in England couldn't even dream of lifting one day is massively pathetic.

Completely agree. Each year there are a max of seven trophies on offer to teams to English teams competing at the highest levels (Premier League Champions, FA Cup, League Cup, Charity Shield, Euopa League Cup, Champions League Cup and the Super Cup), for obvious reasons it's easy to discount two of those.

So if we look at just the 5 trophies that are played over more than one game...

Over the past 20 years including Europe, English teams have won 65 cups. This success has been spread over 13 teams, with 4 teams pretty much cornering the market. With those sort of odds, any team would be crazy to turn their noses up at the chance of any success!

Team   Trophies
Manchester United   21
Chelsea   13
Arsenal   9
Liverpool   8
Aston Villa   2
Blackburn Rovers   2
Leicester City   2
Manchester City   2
Tottenham Hotspur   2
Birmingham City   1
Middlesbrough   1
Everton   1
Portsmouth   1
 

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2012, 01:14:27 pm »
For us, at this point in our journey, it’s an interference. It should be used to keep squad members happy, get players fit etc. and that goes for the league and F.A Cup. 

I’d happily not be in them at all for a few years if it meant we could throw our all into the league campaign and get back to where we belong.
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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2012, 01:14:48 pm »
I love European football. I even loved UEFA cup nights in the 90s when we were frequently rubbish. I loved it during the age before blanket coverage and youTube videos when a decent team could come to Anfield with a bit of mystery (to me at least!).

Nowadays I think European nights are the last refuge of a boss Anfield atmosphere. Benfica and Atletico a few years ago were both great, even if they weren't on the scale of some of our Chelsea tussles. Even the group games have a decent atmosphere and don't have the negative nervous tension which so often infects the league crowd.

I'm really looking forward to us going deep into the competition and getting some good ties against interesting teams.

Offline Мерфи

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2012, 01:25:42 pm »
I never really understood this tendency for fans and organization to dismiss the importance of a certain trophy either.  There are a limited number you qualify for.  There is only one of the type that year, and only one team can win it.  The only discussion about whether it is relevant or not should be kept to a matter of priority during fixture build ups.  What fixtures do you have coming up - and who are you prepared to field for the game? 

So . . what is the reason that UEFA won't do something to liven up the competition - like put the winners of the UEFA Cup in the Qualifying stages of the Champions League next season? (Is it becuase you could have 5 teams from one country in the Champion' League the following season?)
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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2012, 01:27:35 pm »
I think others take it more seriously than the English, the qualifiers and the group stages are a bit tedious but once you're past them and you're into the later rounds were you can play the likes of Atletico Madrid, Athletic, Marseille, Inter etc... It becomes quality, personally would love to win it this season, I'd rather win this than the FA Cup and League Cup anyway.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2012, 01:28:04 pm »
I honestly despise 'Fans' that think any competition is 'below them'.

This modern snobbery involving the Europa League and the League Cup is absolutely disgusting and shows exactly how pathetic some football 'fans' are nowdays. To turn your nose up at trophies that the vast majority of clubs in England couldn't even dream of lifting one day is massively pathetic.

Totally agree with you Andy, it just sums football up nowadays, if you don't get millions from winning it, it worthless. What a load of bull, we built our reputation on competitions such as these, ask both Shanks and Bob Paisley, and they will tell you, it where the Liverpool of old was born. Before anyone comes on here distainfully dismissing it, this is an ideal competition for a manager such as Brendan to start his own journey to hopefully re-building Liverpool to it's former glory. Don't stick your nose up at it, just because it ain't the Champions League money bag, we all have to start somewhere. This competition is as good as any, and I for one am looking forward to watching it, I hope we give it the respect it deserves.
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Offline OperationIvy

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2012, 01:29:18 pm »
For us, at this point in our journey, it’s an interference. It should be used to keep squad members happy, get players fit etc. and that goes for the league and F.A Cup. 

I’d happily not be in them at all for a few years if it meant we could throw our all into the league campaign and get back to where we belong.

I dont agree. We need to attract good players to get into the top 4 as well as keep the ones we got.

From watching the Europa league last year, there were some great players on show, which could really improve our team. Itll be hard enough to attract those kind of players with champions league teams ready to pounce and if we were out of Europe for a few years, it would be almost impossible.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2012, 01:29:29 pm »
I'd love to win it this year, but I'll be just as happy if we use it as a staging ground to ease the kids into competitive matches and let them have a go at proving themselves. Since we don't have the resources to keep up with CL teams, we need to prioritize the development of our young players and ensure the academy is pumping out talent non-stop like La Masia. This offers us a decent chance to do so. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should be underestimating teams and throwing out all our fringe players, but we should use this as a less demanding atmosphere to gradually bleed in some of the kids.
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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2012, 01:30:05 pm »
Apart from the glittering trophy, Europa League is pretty vital as far as UEFA Coefficients are concerned. When we do return to CL, it should be on back of good Europa campaign as you'll end up as a better seed with less likelyhood of being in a tough group.

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Re: The Europa League conundrum
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2012, 01:34:04 pm »
I don't understand why some fans feel this tournament is beneath us. Do we really care about the Thursday/Sunday fixture issue? Until we're regularly qualifying for the champions league again we need to take the Europa league seriously. 
Remember when we used to sing "we've got the best midfield in the world'? Not so much anymore.