Author Topic: Community Union  (Read 9845 times)

Online Red Beret

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Community Union
« on: April 15, 2013, 09:08:10 pm »
This... fuck, this is going to be harder than I thought.  Mods - feel free to lock or delete if you so wish.

My growing anger towards the indifference shown us by Central government and the ineptitude of Local government has been preying on my mind for some considerable time.  Looking at the solidarity of Liverpool at times like this is always a great source of inspiration to me and so I feel moved to write this.

In the wake of Thatcher's demise, I posted several remarks about establishing a new political party on Merseyside to try and reclaim socialist ideals and rid it of the public perception of being destructive and a dirty word.  The past two days has seen me working on a basic mission statement and also potential policy ideas.  Some here have expressed an interest in what I have been doing so I feel it's time to ask if anybody would be interested in getting on board?

Please understand - this is very scary for me.  I'm not a person who enjoys taking on great responsibility at the best of times, especially suffering from stress and depression as I am.  But I feel WE together have an opportunity to become agents of change in Liverpool and Merseyside.

We have seen, combating Hicks and Gillett, our fight for Justice for the 96, that we can affect REAL change and successfully challenge those at the top.  Perhaps the time for political apathy is over and we should seize an opportunity to try and make our home a better place.

I am not very well educated on local politics.  I don't know what current policies are in effect, I've never even seen a debate in the council chamber.  I'm flying blind here.  I have no idea if I can rally the support needed to make something like this work.  But if Spirit of Shankly can manage, perhaps we can too?

Yes, this probably isn't just a political party - perhaps it's a Union, intended to represent the needs and interests of the people of Liverpool?  If so, would anybody be interested in getting involved?

*ducks for cover*
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Offline Lenin.

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2013, 11:30:14 am »
Why dont you save yourself all the hassle and just get involved with an established socialist organisation?

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/partydoc/What_We_Stand_For
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2013, 02:21:09 pm »
Because Thatcher succeeded in making "socialism" a dirty word.  There's a destructive stigma attached to it.

It's frankly disappointing that nobody else has replied.
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Offline Lenin.

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2013, 02:46:21 pm »
Because Thatcher succeeded in making "socialism" a dirty word.  There's a destructive stigma attached to it.

It's frankly disappointing that nobody else has replied.
I'm not sure your the right person to be setting up a socialist organisation if you are ashamed of the word, to be honest mate. Its only a 'dirty word' with the bell ends who are oppossed to it. Who gives a fuck what Thatchers cronies think anyway?
Anyway, I dont want to derail your thread so I'll  bow out here.
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Online Red Beret

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2013, 03:10:03 pm »
I'm not sure your the right person to be setting up a socialist organisation if you are ashamed of the word, to be honest mate. Its only a 'dirty word' with the bell ends who are oppossed to it. Who gives a fuck what Thatchers cronies think anyway?
Anyway, I dont want to derail your thread so I'll  bow out here.

There's nothing to derail mate!  ;D

I'm not ashamed of being a socialist, but I AM a pragmatist.  The sad fact is socialism doesn't appeal to the public at large.  It's going to take decades to change a hostile, media backed public opinion of socialism and it's a case of actions speak louder than words.

Establishing a form of socialism that doesn't use the word is a good challenge in my opinion.  There is little point in clinging to labels that have served there purpose, which is why I feel Community Union is a better description.

Merseyside is a vast untapped resource of brain and sinew - there's no reason why that can be harnessed in a way that doesn't require the permission of councils or mayors or government. 

Yes I'm naive and inexperienced and there's probably lots being done already that I have no idea about and will need to research.  But this city has the power to break the powerful - it just needs to be directed.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2013, 09:34:32 am »
Apathy. Its killing us.

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2013, 02:19:57 pm »
Well if people don't want to post on her direct they can just PM me and I'll send them a basic outline of my plans.  I don't really want to try and develop policy on my own - that's something that a group of people need to do. 

I'll do it with or without support from RAWK, but obviously I'd feel more confident with the backing of the capable people on here.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2013, 02:32:01 pm »
Why not share what you've got so far in order to at least try and gain a bit of attention/interest?  The thread looks to be suffering futility at the moment...

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2013, 02:41:47 pm »
I was hoping the concept alone would be enough to encourage interest.  I don't want this to become a debate thread.  Plus, my most up to date stuff is on my laptop.  Still I suppose it's worth a shot - nothing to lose at this point.

Quote
1 - Introduction

Do you feel there is no longer a valid or viable political voice for you at parliamentary level?

As a socialist, do you feel that the Labour Party no longer represents your views and takes your vote for granted?

Do you feel there being no real voting choice denegrates some of they greatest achievements this nation has accomplished when working for the good of the many and not a select few?

Have you become generally apathetic towards politics in general, believing that, whoever you vote for, nothing will really change, and that all major parties are working with similiar agendas?

Do you feel disenfranchised by the British political system?

Do you believe that the British political system is, at best, being manipulated, or, at worst, directly serving the self interest of a governing "elite"?

The Community Union Party (CUP) seeks to return representative political social activism back to the people of Merseyside.

2 - Background

Thatcherism succeeded in portraying Socialism as an evil; something to be ashamed of.   

Q - Is the CUP a political party designed to replace Labour at Parliamentary level? 
A - No.  Unpalatable as the Labour Party's current form is, we believe that it is still preferable to ANY form of Conservative government.  We do not wish to see a repeat of the 1980s vote splitting that occurred with the SDP/Liberal Alliance, allowing the Conservatives into government by the back door.

Q - Does this mean the CUP does not aspire to Parliamentary power? 
A - No.  Not contesting for government does not mean we cannot contest Parliament.  In the future we intend to field candidates at by-elections as a means of applying pressure upon Labour to change their ways - to remind them they can no longer take their bedrock support for granted and that there is now a viable socialist alternative that will deprive them of that support if they do not remember it.

Q - Does this mean the CUP is little more than a pressure group? 
A - No.  The ultimate purpose of the CUP is to challenge and eventually replace Labour as the dominant force in local politics, and establish itself with a nationwide powerbase.  But this is a long term challenge where there are real needs at grass roots level that need to be addressed NOW. 

There many good men and women who work very hard for the Labour party at local level.  We hope to offer these people a viable opportunity to fully express their socialist views, and so abandon a party so obssessed with regaining power on a national level it has abandoned its roots, leaving party activists afraid of being 'too' socialist.

In the long term, we will attempt to field candidates at General Elections where a Liberal Democrat holds sway, by appealing to disaffected Liberal, Labour and minority voters.  We will also seek to challenge the 'three way' seats as a means of establishing public recognition nationally.
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Offline Commie Bobbie

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2013, 03:19:24 pm »
Not being from Liverpool, I must say that there is an sort of socialist spirit the sort that cannot be replicated anywhere else - which I see whenever I'm up there. The problem, is that people don't realise it.

As for your mission statement - think the questions that you ask are very precise and to the point.
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Online Red Beret

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2013, 03:55:52 pm »
Thanks for the positive feedback.  Mobilising people does seem to be the biggest challenge. 

Ultimately, Community Union would be a mix of political party, charity and union, representing interests across the whole of Merseyside.  I envisage it getting involved in grass roots issues - establishing youth centres, support groups, community beautification projects.  Actions speak louder than words and if people see positive action being taken by a group than I am hoping that is what will win us political support and votes.  We don't need councillors or MPs to achieve these first targets but it will get us out there and recognised.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2013, 02:13:41 pm »
Incidentally I'm now thinking of the name CommUNITY.  I'm hoping we could encourage lots of individual groups currently doing good work to join forces and direct their efforts.

There's Liverpool Community Radio, church groups, workshops and support groups, youth centres and the likes.  Lots of individuals and small teams making a valuable difference to life for many people.
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Offline oldboybailey

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2013, 05:50:26 pm »
I admire your efforts I really do, so many people complain about things but then never get off their arse and do something about it.

Your ideas are pretty good but I think like someone above said you might be creating a lot of work for yourself. Have you heard of either of these?

http://leftunity.org/

http://www.coalitionofresistance.org.uk/

Both generally aiming to do the exact things you are talking about. It might be worth researching if either of these organisations have a branch in Liverpool.

I'm also sceptical as to whether Labour can be reclaimed as I think their internal structures don't allow for grassroots input into their policies. You only have to look at the treatment of Labour councillors in Scouthampton and Hull who have voted against cuts and then immediately booted out of the party. For me the labour party is dead as a means of getting working class representation into parliament.

As for myself, I think that Socialism might have some negative connotations with the general public after the fall of the Soviet Union and Thatcher (and even Blair and New Labour) but ultimately, if you are campaigning on socialist policies I think you need to identify yourself as a Socialist. Otherwise you'll just be accused of hiding your true agenda and we've all had enough of politicians who dont tell the truth.

Personally i'm an active member of the Huddersfield branch of the organisation Lenin posted above, the Socialist Party.

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/

We have a branch in Liverpool whom I'm sure would be more than welcome to discuss your ideas if you wanted to.

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2013, 06:13:43 pm »

Both generally aiming to do the exact things you are talking about. It might be worth researching if either of these organisations have a branch in Liverpool.

I'm also sceptical as to whether Labour can be reclaimed as I think their internal structures don't allow for grassroots input into their policies. You only have to look at the treatment of Labour councillors in Scouthampton and Hull who have voted against cuts and then immediately booted out of the party. For me the labour party is dead as a means of getting working class representation into parliament.

As for myself, I think that Socialism might have some negative connotations with the general public after the fall of the Soviet Union and Thatcher (and even Blair and New Labour) but ultimately, if you are campaigning on socialist policies I think you need to identify yourself as a Socialist. Otherwise you'll just be accused of hiding your true agenda and we've all had enough of politicians who dont tell the truth.

Personally i'm an active member of the Huddersfield branch of the organisation Lenin posted above, the Socialist Party.

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/

We have a branch in Liverpool whom I'm sure would be more than welcome to discuss your ideas if you wanted to.

I understand what you're saying and greatly appreciate the supportive words, but I have distinct issues that I feel need to be addressed.

First, as much as it galls, Socialism HAS become a dirty word in this country.  In order to cleanse public perception we need to show what Socialism can accomplish.  Actions speak louder than words and we should not become attached to labels.  CommUNITY is just that - the community united and working together for the benefit of all, showing people that they DO have power and CAN affect their environment positively.  Too many people sit on their backsides and complain but do nothing; more still hold their heads in their hands and feel powerless to act.  This is where CommUNITY can empower people.

Let the media and rivals attack 'hidden' agendas: when people see the WORK being done and the PROGRESS being made, then all arguments are refuted.  These are professional politicians, weaned on a diet of wind and piss and who excel at talking the talk but never walking the walk.

Second, if Labour can't be reclaimed or pressured into altering course then we will simply end up supplanting them as political representation.  The key is to show people their IS a viable alternative in Liverpool.  As you rightly point out, people within Labour who speak out against the party line risk being booted out.  fine, let them have a home with us.

CommUNITY isn't just about political representation.  I envisage what could effectively become a Union for Merseyside - representing the interests of the entire region.  In that sense it will encourage a multitude of other organisations to tie in with us.

I know of leftunity and coalition of resistance, but I fear there is a political aggression aimed at political leaders.  Campaigns and rallies and guest speakers inspire but this is about encouraging people to do what they can NOW in their immediate area to help those around them.  The painful fact is that if these organisations were fulfilling their objectives we'd have seen something by now. 

An entire city needs to stand up with one voice - the same kind of voice it has used for Hillsborough.  Our local politicians are weak so we must make sure our voice is heard and make it clear we are not going to go away.
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Offline oldboybailey

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2013, 06:25:07 pm »
I understand what you are saying definitely and it's a debate that's had people on both sides argue passionately for it in the past so i'm in no way saying you're wrong. An example I'll give is that we're involved in a campaign in Dewsbury at the moment trying to prevent the downgrading of the hospitals A+E department and the removal of maternity and childrens services. The local trust are saying its about efficiency savings but its quite clear that the reason theres no money is that the trust built another hospital under a PFI and now they have to pay £40m each year for 30 years to Balfour Beattie before any money is spent on anything as trivial as patient care. The hospital only cost £300m to build in the first place.

Anyway, I digress. We've organised and lead a community campaign that has been building and had a demo of nearly 500 people last weekend. Everyone involved in that campaign knows that we are Socialists from the Socialist Party. For me, and I think you've kind of said the same thing, its the getting out there and campaigning and interacting with the community that wins people over. If people see a Socialist organisation doing those things it goes a long way to removing the perceived stigma attached to the word 'socialism'.

Obviously thats just one opinion, and the existence of things like Left Unity is evidence that not everyone thinks that way but I do.


Anyway, how've you gotten on? Have you arranged any meetings or handed out any flyers? It might be an idea to find a local campaign and try to organise with the intention of taking up a particular challenge to get more people interested?

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2013, 09:57:07 am »
Yeah mate, it's about organising people and existing movements and getting them all pulling in the same direction.  The aim of CommUNITY is to be the sort of political wing of this organising, that will give these people and institutions the political voice the currently don't have, without overtly politicising the actual institutions themselves.  Like I said, ultimately a Union of Merseyside.

In order to rehabilitate socialism in the eyes of the public at large, we need to demonstrate what it can do - to that end the word socialist just becomes a label of liability.  We're years off having to defend that against the established parties because ultimately our goal is to support the people of Merseyside.  By the time people start saying "You're following a socialist agenda" we will be able to say "YES, and this is what it has achieved".

Everybody I've spoken to face to face on this has responded with incredible excitement and enthusiasm.  So I'm really keen to get a group of people together to start planning out some basic policies.  One I have personally in mind mind is a new bus station to serve the North Liverpool routes, as they currently run through Queen's Square which is badly designed and can't handle the volume.

EDIT: If anybody Liverpool based is interested in getting involved in this then by all means PM me and we can sort a meeting date out.  For those not in the city, you can still PM me with ideas, thoughts and opinions.  Could be we could set up a paypral account or something and organise subs.  Spirit of Shankly started out with 100 people in the Sandon - I don't see why we can't get something similar off the ground.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 10:22:44 am by Red Beret »
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2013, 01:10:17 pm »
Interesting.  I will check it out.  It's good to get groundwork done but it's also important that anybody interested in getting involved offers input.

Remember reading or hearing a few days ago that there was a period of recession in Liverpool at least a hundred odd years ago when the city printed its own currency.  I've heard of similar experiments in Spain.  Might be a good idea...

EDIT: ah!  Found it in The little book of Liverpool.  Was 1793 to 1796.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 01:16:57 pm by Red Beret »
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2013, 02:05:56 pm »
Naturally it's always sensible to take on what others have done and I have freely admitted that at the moment I have little but ideas and enthusiasm to offer.  That aside, I feel this is a good, long term project that a lot of people here could focus on.  Certainly it could take my mind off other issues in my life and enable me to do something productive.  Strength in numbers and all that. :)

I'd encourage everybody to read the mission statement further up the thread.  I'm still developing it so any input is welcome.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2013, 11:30:34 am »
Thanks for the positive feedback.  Mobilising people does seem to be the biggest challenge. 

Ultimately, Community Union would be a mix of political party, charity and union, representing interests across the whole of Merseyside.  I envisage it getting involved in grass roots issues - establishing youth centres, support groups, community beautification projects.  Actions speak louder than words and if people see positive action being taken by a group than I am hoping that is what will win us political support and votes.  We don't need councillors or MPs to achieve these first targets but it will get us out there and recognised.

I think your biggest task might just be reclaiming the word "socialism" - helping to frame the debate within the Labour Party and society in general. To a lot of people, it's a dirty word, but a lot more have no idea what it is at all.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2013, 02:45:13 pm »
I think your biggest task might just be reclaiming the word "socialism" - helping to frame the debate within the Labour Party and society in general. To a lot of people, it's a dirty word, but a lot more have no idea what it is at all.

You're not wrong, that's why it's important to see what socialism can do. 

People on mindless workfare crap - compelled to do shitty, dead end work for their benefit?  Or a a gang of people getting together and painting a youth club?  Or volunteering to help out at a soup kitchen?  Or providing advice and support for people struggling with debt? 

Such things happen already, but it's about connecting people to the tasks; letting them feel empowered and in control and that they have a choice.  More importantly, perhaps, is enabling people - having them feel like they've accomplished something worthwhile, made a valuable contribution.  Given the depression thread I'm sure I don't have to spell out in detail what that sort of feeling can do for a person.

Providing a support network, feeling you can make that contribution in the knowledge that others are there to support YOU when you need it.  People are so insular and, yes, selfish now.  It's not an evil selfish - it's conditioned and can be broken.

Getting many of these existing organisations on board, everybody pulling in the same direction etc, it's all part of the long term goal.  Chances are it will literally take generations to scrub the word socialism clean but if we don't make a start it'll never happen at all.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2013, 01:29:29 pm »
I appreciate and support an awful lot of what you're saying...there might be a bit of cautiousness over enthusing over involvement simply because it's very difficult for people who feel they're approaching a topic they already feel very naive about when it might be perceived that the central/organsing figure is also approaching quite naively - attachment is always going to be difficult.

Thatsaid, naivity can also be a fresh and enthusing thing in it's own right - I don't think anybody who watches (or has ever watched) Question Time would deny that it has a stale reek about it and that a breath of fresh air would be something of a game-changer.  We've seen Owen Jones become a somewhat regular panelist recently (broader perhaps that just on Question Time) and I think his youth conveys a certain naivity that it's actually been easy to engage with (and, as has also been observed, criticise).

So, I suppose I'll say that I support your sentiments but also have a very base-level idea as to why you're perhaps struggling to drum up support.  It sounds, so far, as though any first meeting might be tentatively approached by naive minds (and I count myself here) who have an idea that they'd like to be involved but seek a bit of direction and coaxing before blossoming into it.  A hypothetical first meeting, particularly if you're hoping to engage youths (I don't know your age or your intentions on taht front), could be expected to fall a bit flat if you're expecting people to get round a table and speak up (people who've perhaps never been in such a context before) and very quickly lead to dwindling numbers.

I feel like a bit of an interested observer here - ideally there's legs in what you're saying but my head carries reservations.

A first meeting of minds, for instance, might be be better served in a way that doesn't have an explicit action plan from the off - making aggressive claims and plans from the off would seem counter intuitive, to me anyway.

Perhaps better would be to arrange a mini-event - get a couple of local business interested (think small and therefore interested - pubs, barbers, newsagents), host something at the local community centre, invite a couple of speakers (maybe from the uni, from SoS, from other parties), invite a local youth/sports club, screen 'Spirit of 45', get a few minds ticking, get a local band on, lay on a barbeque - offer some sort of non-commital opportunity for a meeting of minds, advertise it as an opportunity to raise some views and concerns outside of the usual scepticism-inducing routes.

This bit edited - living here in the south of the city, right off the bat I can think of a location for a get together, people who might be open to providing lite-catering for any such event, local businesses who may be interested in airing their thoughts and concerns, a left-leaning community who may be willing to offer their attention, and media texts that could be used in order to stimulate debate, etc

If you want to truly work from the ground up then I think education and thought provokation in a friendly, inviting, and demand-free setting is your best bet - let people listen and learn, keep things informal by even just surveying via suggestion/'concerns'-box with a view to discussing next time.

I also think that 'CommUNITY' would put people off - let the 'party' realise itself naturally rather than putting labels and therefore commitments on it from the off.  If you're going to call a meeting/conference/even fair then let it be more of a verb and not a noun that it's referenced by.

Anyhow, I'm just here as in interested observer with some keen but consciously naive ideas anyway - so what do I know?  :wave

(Are you on Twitter?  Might be useful for pinging bits and bobs of ideas around?).
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 02:02:11 pm by jackh »

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2013, 01:36:29 pm »
And just to add (it perhaps felt a bit too tangetial for the post above), one of the things I'm particularly concerned about at the moment is my part-time job and being treated like 'stock'/'resource' - poor treatment, for poor hours, on poor pay.  The must frustrating thing is everybody else I see during shifts remarking upon the same question but failing to see beyond their own concerns - failing to see that's it's common amongst employees.  Perhaps that's unfair - perhaps it's more the case that employers can and will offer the job elsewhere if you're an employee seeking to agitate.  Of course people don't believe in their ability to, or seek to, agitate as individuals but that individual defeatist outlook manifests itself in collective defeatism - Tom's got his own concerns which happen to be the same as Dick's, but why agitate when Dick won't and Harry will be offered my job?  Private employers of low-wage staff are getting an easy ride of it at the moment and the government's divide and conquer rhetoric is working far better than any of us should allow.

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2013, 02:10:48 pm »
Standing aside from the idea that I did actually have, and joking for a moment...a bit of a get together on the Sefton Park meadows would seem to present a pointed juxtaposition of the discussion we could have and the proposed use for the land...  ;)

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2013, 06:26:23 pm »
Thanks for the feedback, jackh.  I will probably have to read it several times to fully digest your points, but here is a preliminary response:

I feel the need to direct my energies towards making the lives of local Liverpudlians better.  I'm tired of the banality, petty point scoring, and private feuds of current local politics.  As a guy pushing 40 it makes me genuinely angry to see grown adults behaving like squabbling playground kids when the stakes are so high; equally it makes me angry to hear the same, banal words being regurgitated over and over again by career politicians.

Yes I'm naive in the world of politics, but I ain't stupid either.  It will take me a long time to read up on all the information I need to do this from scratch - I'll do it alone if I have to but I'm hoping to encourage some intelligence, like wise feeling people with a bit of experience to come on board with me.  Does that mean I want to steal the knowledge of others or am too lazy to learn it for myself?  Absolutely not.  I feel this is a path I should take and will take it regardless.  But others have the knowledge and skills to make this work faster - I can learn from them.  As a team, we can work together.

I envisaged a group of about half a dozen people getting round a table.  First, talking about what dissatisfies them about local politics; perhaps musing on what they'd like to see done differently.  Then, as a group, coming up with some basic policies.  As a team, then doing a spot of research - identifying the groups that might be willing to get involved and/or imparting some of their experiences in establishing themselves - like Spirit of Shankly for example.

Armed with this knowledge we could then approach community hubs - like church groups, Liverpool Community Radio, some local charities - hand them some fliers and explain what we're about and what we want to do, ie unite as many groups as possible and get them all pulling in the same direction to effective real change in the city.  This would of course be coupled with research into local politics - detailed analysis of existing parties on Merseyside and what they say they can offer etc.

Ideally I would like to see us contest one council seat inside the next three years.  There are many willing hands out there and it's a resource waiting to be harnessed - that's what those three years would be about.

Age isn't really an issue for me.  Anybody who has enthusiasm and a real will to effect change is welcome.  Obviously though, in these initial stages, experience and knowledge is always going to be useful.  At this moment I'm only one guy; there's only so much my brain can absorb but I can at least confirm I know half a dozen people who may be interested in getting on board.  These are people I know irl - for some reason though I feel it is very important that I make progress here first, before realistically approaching them.  I don't know why.  Perhaps it's just the RAWK factor at play.  ;D

I don't claim to have all the answers and it would be ridiculous for me to try and come up with a lot of this stuff on my own - policy by it's nature has to be agreed by consensus.  A group small enough to be manageable, yet large enough to give a relatively broad sense of overall agreement and direction that the policy will be beneficial to the city.  We then take this to organisations and ask them what THEY think - what do they want to see in this document?

The first steps are all about overcoming the inertia that seems to pervade the region.  On this website alone we have seen what can be achieved when smart people are roused to action.  We've seen it in the Hillsborough campaign; we've seen it in the war against the Septics.  Let this be our inspiration; and let it inspire those on this forum who are not locals.

All I want to do is give hope back to people and get them to direct their anger and frustration in a positive manner, where each and every one of us ultimately becomes an instrument of change in the city.  I know several people currently involved in Sefton Park Meadows so perhaps it certainly would be a great place to start.  For the time being though, I'll leave it there, as I'm starting to sound like one of those ambiguous political broadcasts - but I hope there is a bit of structure here for people to hang their hats on.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2013, 06:29:06 pm »
Incidentally, My original name was Liverpool Community Party.  Names are always up for grabs but I figured I needed to tag it with something for the time being.  SoS never got it right the first time either.  ;)
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2013, 09:56:21 pm »
I envisaged a group of about half a dozen people getting round a table.  First, talking about what dissatisfies them about local politics; perhaps musing on what they'd like to see done differently.  Then, as a group, coming up with some basic policies.  As a team, then doing a spot of research - identifying the groups that might be willing to get involved and/or imparting some of their experiences in establishing themselves - like Spirit of Shankly for example.

I suppose that my concern here is that the foundations are based upon negatives...what not to do, what to avoid, what others are doing wrong.  I worry that that might just appear to be the same-old stuffy and won't turn enough people on (not that that's intended to offer any particular inference about potential meetings :D).  Fine, let that be the private conception (maybe that is already happening in one sense) but I just think you should take this public in a positive and enthusiastic way - offer something tangible...give people something to attach to and enthuse about.  Take the lead in organising events with local kids, put bands on out in the community, find out if a couple of pubs would fancy sponsoring a mini-footy cup in August.

I just feel as though you should approach from the direction of offering the community something before 'rallying the troops' - give people something to gather around rather than chasing them with a clipboard and asking for a few moments of their time.  Some sort of sports/summer day might sound a bit little-league but it's immediately giving a community something that represents the essence of what the broader 'project' would be about, could double as a form of fundraiser, would attract local press and word of mouth coverage, and importantly would send many people home thinking "Great, looking forward to doing that again".  Once established on those sorts of gounds, then  move can be made to mobilise on a broader scale - I should expect there's a great deal of consensus within communities that doesn't get discussed openly enough...provide unifying activities flavoured by these socialist principles and actively demonstrate how community unity is to be championed and not lamented.  You can work through the gears from that point forwards.

Incidentally, My original name was Liverpool Community Party.  Names are always up for grabs but I figured I needed to tag it with something for the time being.  SoS never got it right the first time either.  ;)

I get that you're only making naming references in a throwaway manner and that you're not fussed about having something set in stone - my suggestion would be that a name isn't even necessary yet because you already restrict your actions and begin to determine a desired trajectory...I believe it would need to be a more organic process.  Give people a reason to gather under a friendly and inviting term by all means, but don't commit to a name for what you seek to become until 'it' begins it's own natural evolution.

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2013, 12:04:26 am »
I'm not sure what you're getting from what I'm saying.  I'm not chasing anybody with clipboards.  All I want is a couple of people on here to commit to meeting me to help establish a basic ethos of the party I'm trying to set up.  I honestly don't know what else I can say to convince people that this is potentially a very productive venture.

I'm getting the feeling that people are more interested in picking apart what I'm trying to do rather than giving it a chance.  :(
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2013, 12:11:07 am »
I'm not sure what you're getting from what I'm saying.  I'm not chasing anybody with clipboards.  All I want is a couple of people on here to commit to meeting me to help establish a basic ethos of the party I'm trying to set up.  I honestly don't know what else I can say to convince people that this is potentially a very productive venture.

I'm getting the feeling that people are more interested in picking apart what I'm trying to do rather than giving it a chance.  :(

That's politics...

I suppose the question for me is, what's the core belief here, what is it that you believe in that no other party can offer.

And I think the party political stuff, council seats, westminster, should be a distant thought at this point. I think if you can organise people to work together on a few projects, to actually become an active participant in the local community, then the rest could follow later.

I think there's plenty that could be done without getting into council-level politics, just by people grouping together, but I'd need a much clearer idea of what that was going to look like before I could commit any serious time to it.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2013, 12:50:26 am »
That's politics...

I suppose the question for me is, what's the core belief here, what is it that you believe in that no other party can offer.

And I think the party political stuff, council seats, westminster, should be a distant thought at this point. I think if you can organise people to work together on a few projects, to actually become an active participant in the local community, then the rest could follow later.

I think there's plenty that could be done without getting into council-level politics, just by people grouping together, but I'd need a much clearer idea of what that was going to look like before I could commit any serious time to it.

This is exactly how I feel - as though it would seem useful to gather people* before establishing and publicising your parameters.  As many people on side as you can before providing an opportunity for scepticism to rear its head.

*by 'people' I guess that here I'm referring to some vague conception of 'followers'/'participants' rather than what you might call 'members'/'organisers' at the early stage...of course meetings would be required between those involved but I think when 'it' is taken public it would be better served by a soft approach that offers something positive and inclusive.

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #29 on: May 1, 2013, 12:57:39 am »
Been chatting to a mate of mine this evening about this and he was interested in what you've said so far.

Hopefully you can get a few people together at some point, with everyone bringing some ideas to the table.
« Last Edit: May 1, 2013, 07:54:40 am by jackh »

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #30 on: May 1, 2013, 03:17:46 pm »
This is exactly how I feel - as though it would seem useful to gather people* before establishing and publicising your parameters.  As many people on side as you can before providing an opportunity for scepticism to rear its head.

*by 'people' I guess that here I'm referring to some vague conception of 'followers'/'participants' rather than what you might call 'members'/'organisers' at the early stage...of course meetings would be required between those involved but I think when 'it' is taken public it would be better served by a soft approach that offers something positive and inclusive.

This is exactly what I'm trying to do.  I know I've said I want to hold a policy meeting but that effectively amounts to a straw poll of half a dozen to a dozen people of exactly how they're disaffected by current local politics and what they would personally like to see, mixed in with a few solid ideas that a basic framework could be built upon.

To my mind, although I agree it will be vital at some stage, this is far too early to be conducting 'market research' beyond attempting to shift the concept into motion.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #31 on: May 2, 2013, 04:42:11 pm »
I've completed the first draft of the political statement.  I'm now provisionally calling this the Liverpool Community Part.

My apologies in advance if this seems naive, repetitive waffle that insults your intelligence.  I'm trying to appeal to as broad and general an audience so I feel it's necessary to emphasise points.  It's (mostly) all up for negotiation, especially the provisional policies.  I've spoilered each section for convenience and I hope it generates some positive feedback. :)

Liverpool Community Party

1 - Introduction

Spoiler
Do you feel there is no longer a valid or viable political voice for you at parliamentary level?

As a socialist, do you feel that the Labour Party no longer represents your views and takes your vote for granted?

Do you feel there being no real voting choice denigrates some of the greatest achievements this nation has accomplished when working for the good of the many and not a select few?

Have you become generally apathetic towards politics in general, believing that, whoever you vote for, nothing will really change, and that all major parties are working with similar agendas?

Do you feel disenfranchised by the British political system?

Do you believe that the British political system is, at best, being manipulated, or, at worst, directly serving the self interest of a governing "elite"?

The Liverpool Community Party (LCP) seeks to return representative political social activism back to the people of Merseyside.
[close]

2 - Background

Spoiler
Thatcherism succeeded in portraying Socialism as an evil; something to be ashamed of.   

Q - Is the LCP a political party designed to replace Labour at Parliamentary level? 
A - No.  Unpalatable as the Labour Party's current form is, we believe that it is still preferable to ANY form of Conservative government.  We do not wish to see a repeat of the 1980s vote splitting that occurred with the SDP/Liberal Alliance, allowing the Conservatives into government by the back door.

Q - Does this mean the LCP does not aspire to Parliamentary power? 
A - No.  Not contesting for government does not mean we cannot contest Parliament.  In the future we intend to field candidates at by-elections as a means of applying pressure upon Labour to change their ways - to remind them they can no longer take their bedrock support for granted and that there is now a viable socialist alternative that will deprive them of that support if they do not remember it.

Q - Does this mean the LCP is little more than a pressure group? 
A - No.  The ultimate purpose of the LCP is to challenge and eventually replace Labour as the dominant force in local politics, and establish itself with a nationwide powerbase.  But this is a long term challenge where there are real needs at grass roots level that need to be addressed NOW. 

Q - Does the LCP want to turn back the clock?
A - No.  The LCP seeks a restoration of progressive socialism with the core emphasis of the community.  People are at the heart of everything we seek to do because ultimately beliefs, ideology and policies can accomplish nothing without people.  It is people who do things and the LCP wishes to build the framework by which people can accomplish for themselves as individuals and for one another as a community.

The LCP is not about aspiring to a particular ideology; it is a common sense party that seeks to do what works.
[close]


3 - Not using the "S" word

Spoiler
It is indeed a sad state of affairs that the words “Socialist” and “Labour” have become so tainted that even using the words carries a risk political rejection without consideration.  To redress this imbalance and alter public perception of Socialism being destructive, antagonistic, and economically damaging will likely take decades. 

Place a perfectly reasonable policy in front of a typical voter and there’s a good chance they will see the sense in it.  Put the same policy in front of a voter and describe it as a Socialist policy however, and they will likely reject it out of hand.  It is therefore necessary to be Socialist in all but name. 

This is not a deception.  This is re-creation.  Once people can see the good Socialism can accomplish they will gradually be re-educated as to what constitutes good, sound, one nation politics that benefits the many.

This will not be an easy task.  The right wing media has a vested interest in portraying Socialism as “bad”.  In Labour heartlands this will be less of an issue, but as the party’s profile becomes more nationwide the political attacks will inevitably come.  It is therefore vital that arguments are won by deeds and not words.

Liverpool - a city that suffered greatly under the industry-decimating policies of the 1980s - is to be the core of socialism’s rebirth.
[close]

4 - Actions, not Words

Spoiler
It could well take up to 50 years to rehabilitate the word ‘socialism’ and it will indeed prove difficult to persuade proud, politically active socialists to leave that word behind.  But we must be pragmatic.  Whatever war socialism was waging on a national level was lost at least a generation ago.  To continue to fight under this banner may be noble, but it is also futile.  It dooms the work and accomplishments of socialism to the political margins.

However, this does NOT mean socialism needs some kind of New Labour style re-branding.

The Legacy of Tony Blair was to leave us with a right-of-centre Parliament of new age Whigs and Tories.  Labour are now One-Nation Conservatives vying for power with a Neo-Thatcherite Conservative Party.  Whilst it may be true that Britain is predominantly a conservative country that does NOT mean there is no place for socialism on a national level.  It does mean, though, that a lot of work has to be done to make the case for socialism on a national level.

There is currently no place in national politics for socialism and so we should retreat from that battle-ground and begin rebuilding our power-base.  It is on the local level that socialism must fight and in order to do that it must aspire. 

How is this to be done?
[close]


5 - A Credible Alternative

Spoiler
There are many active socialist groups at local level, yet their political representation is limited at best.  Why is this?

There are many reasons - too many to go into.  On the simplest level though, the Labour Party simply has the greater resources and history on its side.  Additionally, local politics has been crippled by voter apathy.  Of course, Liverpool is far from being a one party city; as recently as the early 1980s, Conservative councillors were still being elected and the Liberals have held sway for at least half of the last 45 years or so.

However, things are changing.  And with change arises opportunity.

The Liberals have consistently targeted resources at Liverpool as it has been both a major and also realistic target for them.  Nationally, though, the Liberal Democrat’s decision to enter into coalition with the Conservatives has effectively sounded the death knell for the party at local level in Liverpool.  That the Conservatives gave up on Merseyside years ago is a matter of public record. 

What we are seeing is a combination of people voting Labour out of habit and also to punish the Liberal Democrats.  Indeed, neighbouring Knowsley IS a one party borough, but this is NOT good for democracy.

There is, essentially, no effective alternative to voting Labour - even though Labour has long since ceased to realistically represent the views of Merseyside as a whole and Liverpool in particular.  They are in essence elected by default.  When was the last time you even spoke to a canvasser, much less a prospective candidate?

Therefore the task ahead is deceptively simple.  Present the Liverpool electorate with a credible alternative to Labour and they will support it.
[close]

6 - Getting the Ball Rolling

Spoiler
The minority parties in this city may consistently succeed in getting their ‘hard core’ support out but equally they appear to be running into a brick wall when it comes to breaking out into the local voting populace at large. 

Why should this be the case?

Liverpool is a city full of generous people; Merseyside is a community 400,000 strong.  There are many willing hands and quick minds available - a vast untapped resource of sinew and brain power - and yes, votes.  Give the people of Liverpool something to work towards and they will accomplish it with pride and passion.

Our greatest enemy is inertia.  The political apathy that has descended upon Liverpool over the past 20 years stems from the growing realisation that those vying for office are more concerned about the office then the people voting for them.  We have seen a collapse in voter turnout due to the “Nothing changes” factor.

The key, then, is doing what the major political parties say should be done but are happy not to because it guarantees the smooth running of the current political system.  We need to reconnect to the voters.

This is more about simply “discussing the issues that resonate with the electorate”.  Talk may be a two-way process but increasingly political representation is seen as one way.  What are we getting in return for our support?

Therein lies the key.

The key to voter support, and breaking the curse of voter apathy, is empowerment.  First of all we need to view the electorate as real people and not merely votes or voters.  If we can then help local people rediscover the power to effect real change in their local environment then political support should follow.
[close]

7 - Unity

Spoiler
Unity of strength, resources and common purpose is what the LCP aspires to.  Coalition requires compromise; compromise generates friction; friction can fracture common purpose and ultimately weaken strength.

Ultimately, the LCP wishes to become the banner of unity under which all those who feel disenfranchised can gather.  There are many organisations currently in existence all trying to accomplish goals somewhat separately; it will prove far more effective if these organisations can all pull in the same direction, helping one another achieve their aims without necessarily compromising those aims.

As an example, there are many good men and women who work very hard for the Labour party at local level.  We hope to offer these people a viable opportunity to fully express their socialist views.  In this way they can walk away a party so obsessed with regaining power on a national level that it has abandoned its roots, leaving party activists afraid of being 'too' socialist.

Of course, some form of compromise is inevitable; not everybody will agree on everything and it’s important that unity does not collapse into petty squabbles once power is achieved.  It is by this manner that the LCP seeks to offer political representation to those who currently lack it - without “being under their thumb” but equally without taking their support for granted.  Labour has struggled with this balancing act in its relationship with the unions.

There are many other forms of political expression - art, music, modern and traditional media, etc.  We see these forms of expression every day, from our newspapers to sub-culture - even businesses and local religious leaders.  LCP will seek to mobilise this expression.  Rallies, fund raising gigs, radio broadcasts, even galleries and poetry, can all be utilised to send the message of political solidarity and strength.

Other areas may exist that could be considered apolitical, such as foodbanks welfare rights, homeless shelters, the Salvation Army etc, that nonetheless may exist in part due to the existing political landscape.  These organisations may feel it prudent - indeed necessary - to maintain an apolitical standpoint, yet will still require support and representation.
[close]

8 - It’s okay to be “Left”

Spoiler
While it is fair to say that, on a local level at least, the Labour Party is more socialist than it's Parliamentary counterpart, it is also clear that, even with a Labour government, the needs and issues of Merseyside have not been addressed and will continue to be overlooked.  There is a disconnection between the two.

Indeed, local politics itself is awash with petty feuds and power grabs.  Our current Mayor appears to be all bluster, talking a good fight to local media yet seemingly treated as an irrelevance by Whitehall.

The Labour party has adopted an increasingly centre right stance over the past 20 years.  Some modifications could be argued as necessary to make the party truly electable but the continued tinkering and 'modernisation' - such as parachuting centre right candidates into safe Labour seats - has taken the party too far.

It is possible therefore - perhaps even desirable - that, seeing their traditional voter power base come under threat, the Labour Party may try to “tack back” towards the left, attempting to appease Socialist voters with new policies, whilst at the same time attempting to maintain a position as a centre right party for the swing voters.
[close]

9 - Proposals and Aims

Spoiler
The people need to be involved and feel that they are part of the process of change.  This will excite them, engage them and encourage them.

First and foremost LCP will require willing hands and brains.  Volunteer work within the community, helping as best we can, is important to establish our credentials.  We are not to become just another organisation “doing what we can” to plug the gaps left by big government and local politics - our challenge is to augment and support these existing organisations whilst offering them a platform for a political voice that local leaders must eventually listen to.

Yes, there are several powerful, locally based lobby groups for small business etc that seem to be ignored when it suits the purpose of the council, but these groups are working within the existing system, rather than outright challenging it.

Funding drives and donation requests could be made to such organisations, but with a note of caution: it is not a “You scratch our back and we’ll scratch yours” arrangement.  We do not want to get ‘into hoc’ with any organisation who feel we owe them.  We must deny such leverage as our prime responsibility is to people, not organisations.

One possibility is serving local communities via their parishes.  The local church was traditionally the hub of most small communities and many still strive to do what they can for residents and parishioners.  An existence of mutual encouragement and support could be fosters.  This does not require any religious conviction - it is common sense compassion to make use of pre-existing support networks.
[close]

10 - Basic Policy Outline


Spoiler
Currently, key policy recommendations under consideration are as follows:

1 - To avoid regeneration for regenerations' sake.  That is, to refurbish pre existing communities, limiting demolition and renewal schemes to where they are absolutely necessary.

Currently many large derelict homes have the potential to become “community hubs”.  This would involve social housing investments to provide tenant-specific accommodations that will help avoid “bedroom tax” penalties.

Similarly, such buildings can offer student accommodation facilities for non-students.  This will help focus efforts on increasing the quality of life for pre existing local residents rather than those coming in from outside the city.

2 - Employment and education opportunities for local people.  This involves the re-establishment of local [collective] industry.  The wholesale destruction of Britain’s manufacturing base in the 1980s threw 2 million people out of work.  We must now seek to redress this balance by reviewing the city’s portfolio of potential for new heavy industry. 

3 - Nationalisation.  Council run services, such as emergency services, libraries, meals-on-wheels, are essentially state owned and state run.  Is it possible for a council to, for example, buy and operate a coal mine?  In short can we establish local, state owned industry and infrastructure that could improve job opportunities for local people, save them money and aid their quality of life/

4 - Transport.  Increased pedestrianisation and a complex city one-way system makes Liverpool city centre’s roads difficult to navigate.  Queen’s Square, serving routes for central and northern Liverpool, is not fit for purpose and is a massive cause of congestion.  To that end a new bus station for buses serving North Liverpool and Sefton areas, is required.

5 - Political aims.  Measured political progress would be to contest a single council seat in the next three years, ie, by 2016.  In the long term, we will attempt to challenge Labour in any local by-elections and also ultimately field candidates at General Elections.  For example, where a Liberal Democrat holds a seat, we will seek to appeal to disaffected Liberal, Labour and minority voters.  We will also seek to challenge the 'three way' seats as a means of establishing public recognition nationally.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #32 on: May 2, 2013, 05:05:44 pm »
Again, the emphasis here seems to be on contesting elections. At the last council elections the "Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition" got less votes in Central than the BNP. There's a mountain to climb there. That's why I strongly suggest that you consider focussing on local community activism rather than party politics. You don't need a seat on the council to get projects up and running.

"Present the Liverpool electorate with a credible alternative to Labour and they will support it."

Will they? The Lib Dems spent a lot of time, money, manpower and effort to put themselves up as a credible alternative. They even ran the council for a long period. But they never shifted most of the city's Labour MPs.

I do like this bit:
"The key to voter support, and breaking the curse of voter apathy, is empowerment.  First of all we need to view the electorate as real people and not merely votes or voters.  If we can then help local people rediscover the power to effect real change in their local environment then political support should follow."

But again, I wouldn't think of people as "voters" or "the electorate", you've already started down the road to becoming what you want to avoid. Think instead about the community, about the local environment, about the existing social structures and networks. Treat people as "voters" and they are there to do something for you.
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Offline smig

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #33 on: May 4, 2013, 04:29:08 pm »
Good thread this. The level of apathy in this country is frightening. There's a huge proportion of people who cannot see beyond their own personal bubble and it's to the detriment of society. Thankfully I have a few mates who know the score and take an active interest in politics but I know a lot who either don't care or are completely ignorant. Who could honestly imagine walking into a boozer these days and see a group of 21 year-olds discussing politics and the real things that matter in life? It just doesn't happen and I suppose that's one of the many triumphs of neoliberalism. People's apathy has allowed those at the top to accumulate vast amounts of money with such ease whilst our workplace rights have simultaneously receded.

How can we truly move forward as a society if so many people around my age are only arsed about themselves and the banal shite they watch on the telly? The media plays such an important role in distorting our interests. It staggers me how many people my age are fascinated by reality television. My sister loves it and it winds me up no end.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #34 on: May 5, 2013, 08:43:01 pm »
Again, the emphasis here seems to be on contesting elections. At the last council elections the "Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition" got less votes in Central than the BNP. There's a mountain to climb there. That's why I strongly suggest that you consider focussing on local community activism rather than party politics. You don't need a seat on the council to get projects up and running.

I have stated the medium and long term aims, but naturally groundwork needs to be done before that.  I don't believe there is undue emphasis on election strategy but I will review the text.

Quote
"Present the Liverpool electorate with a credible alternative to Labour and they will support it."

Will they? The Lib Dems spent a lot of time, money, manpower and effort to put themselves up as a credible alternative. They even ran the council for a long period. But they never shifted most of the city's Labour MPs.

Of course they will - the key words are credible alternative.  Liverpool has been either Liberal or Labour run for most of the past 50 years.  It's true the Liberals invested a lot of money in gaining Liverpool - it was the only metropolitan area they controlled.  But the Lib Dems have different politics to Labour and they're certainly NOT a credible alternative to Labour in the city now. 

Liverpool Community is about credible, progressive, mutually supportive socialism.  It's Shankly Socialism if you will.  As the document states, although the local Labour group is more socialist than the national party, it's still more style than substance and clearly lacks the balls to either stand up to central government or just plain help people.  They're all talk and no action.  LCP is about hitting the streets and getting its hands dirty - mobilising and encouraging people to work together to help one another - to remind them that's what the community is all about.

Quote
I do like this bit:
"The key to voter support, and breaking the curse of voter apathy, is empowerment.  First of all we need to view the electorate as real people and not merely votes or voters.  If we can then help local people rediscover the power to effect real change in their local environment then political support should follow."

But again, I wouldn't think of people as "voters" or "the electorate", you've already started down the road to becoming what you want to avoid. Think instead about the community, about the local environment, about the existing social structures and networks. Treat people as "voters" and they are there to do something for you.

Not sure I follow you here.  The concept is to see people as people AND voters.  They have lives, real world problems and their support has to be earnt.  Right now Labour is defacto in charge because they're not Tories or Lib-Dems - a key issue for LCP is that Labour takes its bedrock support for granted in favour of the floating voter.  But you are dead right that we prioritise people, their community and local and environment, and everybody's place in that community and local environment.  It's about being active and not just a bunch of jobsworths.

The people are resource, one that is waiting to be engaged.  Treat them with respect and offer them the chance to effect real change in their communities, where they can see a difference, and I believe their political support will follow.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2013, 04:06:22 pm »
An update bump.  If we can't reclaim Labour for socialism then we must look to replace Labour for socialism, but again that word must be kept to a minimum.  I'm not sure on how to do that yet.  As I've said previously, I don't have all the answers.  I don't even really want to be in charge of this, but as others have said on this thread, Apathy is our biggest enemy and so I feel the need to at least try to overcome the inertia, even if others better qualified than me ultimately take over.

Policies... well I've only given thought to national policy recently - which I admit is not good for something that is supposed to have its foundation in the local community.  But I think the outright abolition of the House of Lords would be a good step, perhaps even replacing it with a chamber of council leaders/representatives.

Aside from that, I would really like to hold some kind of meeting inside the next month so if anybody is interested in attending that meeting could you please contact me?
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2013, 11:56:16 am »
Out of curiosity, have you looked at the Green Party?

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Re: Community Union
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2013, 01:47:21 pm »
I voted Green in the Mayoral election actually.  But what I'm hoping for is to create something that demonstrates a unity of common sense compassion that spreads across local politics.  The Greens could certainly be part of that but I'm not sure I could create this from within their own party.  I guess what I'm seeking is a bit of autonomy in the first instance, to gauge how people feel and the contribution they are able to make.  I've certainly no objection to good policy just because its come from someplace else.
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2013, 05:01:46 pm »
Thanks to everybody who has expressed an interest so far.  I'm sure we can do a bit better so I will wait a few days then message you all about sorting a meeting date and venue. :)
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Re: Community Union
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2013, 11:39:17 pm »
Mark me down as interested RB.
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