Author Topic: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership  (Read 346717 times)

Offline rossipersempre

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1760 on: March 5, 2012, 09:22:58 am »
Well, there could be a multitude of reasons, they could think he's good enough, or the alternatives aren't, or it could be political. I don't know.
There's only one of those three scenarios that makes any sort of logical sense, and we all know it. Some just refuse to acknowledge or accept it.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1761 on: March 5, 2012, 09:28:55 am »
Skrtel has suffered from being shunted onto the wrong side of the pitch between Carra and the likes of Insua and Koncheskey, from not having the confidence in his partner to commit to challenges the way he does with Agger and despite that he still had enough form to keep his place at International level and to play in every single League game last season.
The sort of confidence that comes with, say, not sustaining a fractured jaw courtesy of 'friendly fire' you mean?
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1762 on: March 5, 2012, 09:31:03 am »
We shouldn't be relying on niggles to Carra for Coates to get games. What a sad state of affairs that would be.

Coates should get a game ahead of him because he's better then him. Thats what it boils down to.

Carra just isn't very good. And that's why he shouldn't be playing. Because we have better then him available.
Absolutely.

Players should never be picked on reputation.  We won league title after league title using this philosophy.

In recent years the power has shifted to the players.  That is a bad sign for any club.  I think Dalglish is trying to correct that now.

Offline rossipersempre

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1763 on: March 5, 2012, 09:33:23 am »
In recent years the power has shifted to the players.  That is a bad sign for any club.  I think Dalglish is trying to correct that now.
Evidence?
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1764 on: March 5, 2012, 09:37:47 am »
Evidence?
I still think removing Carragher from the first team was a huge step.  Benitez should have done it back in 09/10.  Hodgson should have done it when he was in charge.  Dalglish has done so.

Still concerned why we gave Gerrard an extension of a year when his contract was due to run until June 2013.  That is £6m of resources used on a player who has had consistent injury worries since 2009.  I love the guy, but the decision makes more sense for Steven Gerrard than it does for LFC.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1765 on: March 5, 2012, 09:41:47 am »
I still think removing Carragher from the first team was a huge step.  Benitez should have done it back in 09/10.  Hodgson should have done it when he was in charge.  Dalglish has done so.

Still concerned why we gave Gerrard an extension of a year when his contract was due to run until June 2013.  That is £6m of resources used on a player who has had consistent injury worries since 2009.  I love the guy, but the decision makes more sense for Steven Gerrard than it does for LFC.
Except Hank, he didn't remove Carragher from the first team. Injury did that. Not for long though as we've seen.

And if we're talking contract extensions, then the shameful one our vice captain was "given" merely hours before Cecil's helicopter fled the roof and the FSG tanks rolled into Anfield, must surely warrant a mention.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1766 on: March 5, 2012, 09:42:57 am »
From what I understand about the lad he's a diamond

Christ, he sounds effing crap if the rest of your post has any base in reality.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1767 on: March 5, 2012, 09:45:12 am »
There's only one of those three scenarios that makes any sort of logical sense, and we all know it. Some just refuse to acknowledge or accept it.

Possibly but I didn't want get into that. Vulmea's defence of Carragher stemmed from those wanting Coates to play against Arsenal so I wanted to keep it to footballing reasons. He's the one who brought up the political stuff (after using Skrtel's performance against Spurs for some reason) which I didn't want to get into.
« Last Edit: March 5, 2012, 09:46:57 am by Hazell »
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1768 on: March 5, 2012, 09:45:44 am »
Christ, he sounds effing crap if the rest of your post has any base in reality.
Dirk showed him up in training don't you know (according to Vulmea's imagination). He may be a lauded Copa America winning young CB, but he's no match for our tricky fleet-footed Dutchman. Unlike Carragher of course.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1769 on: March 5, 2012, 09:47:53 am »
Possibly but I didn't want get into that. Vulmea's defence of Carragher stemmed from those wanting Coates to play against Arsenal so I wanted to keep it to footballing reasons. He's the one who brought up the political stuff which I didn't want to get into.
Fair enough mate, except for the fact that there ARE no footballing reasons to pick Carragher over Coates. None whatsoever, even before the Arsenal game and certainly none after.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1770 on: March 5, 2012, 09:54:35 am »
The sort of confidence that comes with, say, not sustaining a fractured jaw courtesy of 'friendly fire' you mean?

Aye that incident and the one where Carra punctured his lung in a collision with Reina at Sunderland. Do you think it's because we need an organiser, a pointer and a screecher at the back because that wouldn't look very good for someone whose place is cemented by his organisational skills.

It must be nice to be able to keep your place based on things that are immeasurable and even better when the likes of Skrtel and Agger show that they didn't in fact fall apart without Carra's immeasurable qualities you can then keep your place based on things that happen in closed training sessions.

Looking back I am beginning to think that we might of made a mistake when we sold Morientes he might not of been able to hit a barn door with a banjo but he did have leadership qualities and he organised the forwards brilliantly.
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Offline rossipersempre

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1771 on: March 5, 2012, 09:58:44 am »
Aye that incident and the one where Carra punctured his lung in a collision with Reina at Sunderland. Do you think it's because we need an organiser, a pointer and a screecher at the back because that wouldn't look very good for someone whose place is cemented by his organisational skills.

It must be nice to be able to keep your place based on things that are immeasurable and even better when the likes of Skrtel and Agger show that they didn't in fact fall apart without Carra's immeasurable qualities you can then keep your place based on things that happen in closed training sessions.

Looking back I am beginning to think that we might of made a mistake when we sold Morientes he might not of been able to hit a barn door with a banjo but he did have leadership qualities and he organised the forwards brilliantly.
I think a better example was Mauricio Pellegrino. Highly intelligent (hence the coaching role Rafa had him in) but as a player for us, approaching middle age and slower than an asthmatic snail. Yet absolutely fantastic at blagging spare runners up CL medals and handing them out to the kids. We should have kept him on the pitch, where his organisational abilities (implementing zonal marking) were invaluable.
« Last Edit: March 5, 2012, 10:00:39 am by rossipersempre »
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1772 on: March 5, 2012, 10:03:08 am »
Fair enough mate, except for the fact that there ARE no footballing reasons to pick Carragher over Coates. None whatsoever, even before the Arsenal game and certainly none after.

Yeah, agreed.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1773 on: March 5, 2012, 10:08:50 am »
I think a better example was Mauricio Pellegrino. Highly intelligent (hence the coaching role Rafa had him in) but as a player for us, approaching middle age and slower than an asthmatic snail. Yet absolutely fantastic at blagging spare runners up CL medals and handing them out to the kids. We should have kept him on the pitch, where his organisational abilities (implementing zonal marking) were invaluable.

At least with the likes of Pellegrino, Soto and Hypiia when they lost their pace they were natural Centre backs who were commanding in the air. Jamie is a blown up full back who has always been vulnerable in the air but made up for it by being pretty mobile, having epic concentration levels and by simply not making mistakes.

All the things that made him worth his place between 04 and 07 have gone, the pace that he had has gone, he loses concentration and lets forwards get the wrong side of him like Van Persie and Walters and he makes basic mistakes time and time again. Without those qualities you are left with a slow, aerially weak centre back who cannot even counter that by being calm or good on the ball.

If you list all the boxes that a Centre back needs to tick then Jamie doesn't tick any of them anymore.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1774 on: March 5, 2012, 10:21:11 am »
All the things that made him worth his place between 04 and 07 have gone

These were Carragher's years. Before that he was a cumbersome full back. After that he was a rapidly declining centre back. He's fortunate I think to have played so many games for Liverpool, especially when you think of the great defenders we've had over the years whose careers here were cut short by merciless management. And now the longer he stays the more diluted that 2004-07 legacy becomes. What once looked like a glorious chapter is in danger of becoming a beautifully written sentence.
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Offline rossipersempre

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1775 on: March 5, 2012, 10:30:35 am »
These were Carragher's years. Before that he was a cumbersome full back. After that he was a rapidly declining centre back. He's fortunate I think to have played so many games for Liverpool, especially when you think of the great defenders we've had over the years whose careers here were cut short by merciless management. And now the longer he stays the more diluted that 2004-07 legacy becomes. What once looked like a glorious chapter is in danger of becoming a beautifully written sentence.
You also have to consider that Carragher was extremely fortunate that he survived Rafa's English clique-ectomy of summer 2004 (Owen gone and Murphy binned for Xabi). As you say, he was a mediocre full back before. Who knows how his career would have panned out if Rafa had been able to get Roberto Ayala follow him from the Mestalla.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1776 on: March 5, 2012, 10:33:28 am »
You also have to consider that Carragher was extremely fortunate that he survived Rafa's English clique-ectomy of summer 2004 (Owen gone and Murphy binned for Xabi). As you say, he was a mediocre full back before. Who knows how his career would have panned out if Rafa had been able to get Roberto Ayala follow him from the Mestalla.

I'm grateful this didn't happen because of Istanbul - in fact the whole European Cup campaign - where Carragher earned his immortal spurs. But what a price to pay in the long term. And it seems we're still paying it. Surely not next season though.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1777 on: March 5, 2012, 10:44:04 am »
Whatever the short term footballing argument is for playing Carra over Coates, the fact is that Coates needs game time. We have nothing much left to play for this season so we might as well get some experience for youngsters like Coates, Robinson, Flanagan and Shelvey.

Even if you still think Carra has got it, you'd have to concede that he's got one more season left in him at best. Coates could be part of our defence for the next 10 years.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1778 on: March 5, 2012, 10:48:01 am »
I'm grateful this didn't happen because of Istanbul - in fact the whole European Cup campaign - where Carragher earned his immortal spurs. But what a price to pay in the long term. And it seems we're still paying it. Surely not next season though.
One of those alternate universe thingies eh Yorky. Who's to say Ayala would mean no Istanbul? Or Athens?

As for surely not next season, I wouldn't hold my breath. He should have been replaced by Rafa and wasn't. He should have been by Kenny but wasn't, it took an injury for the partnership we all screamed for to get the chance. And now, despite the 6'6" Copa-America-winning presence of Coates, the Bootle Baresi is back in like a rat up a drainpipe, and even humiliation against Arsenal will unlikely change anything. I hoped Kenny would prove ruthless but so far there's no evidence and plenty of scope for him to continue to play Carragher citing the increased games next season.

For me, Carragher is like a footballing Elastoplast, one that's been left on too long. More placebo effect and comfort than an actual barrier against infection. And like a plaster, it's better to rip off quickly and experience a brief wail of complaint, than peel slowly and tortuously feeling every single pull of hair and skin.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1779 on: March 5, 2012, 11:57:26 am »
One of those alternate universe thingies eh Yorky. Who's to say Ayala would mean no Istanbul? Or Athens?

True enough mate. But I wouldn't want to risk it!

And I don't share your dismay over Carragher's status under Kenny. The fact is he HAS been sidelined. Sure, it took an injury to begin with. But there was no easy route back into the first team for Carragher, as there was (rightly) for Gerrard.
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Offline stuarth810

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1780 on: March 5, 2012, 12:08:50 pm »
They have both been tremendous as a pair we now need good back up

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1781 on: March 5, 2012, 12:08:52 pm »
didn't carragher sign a two year contract in October 2010 ?
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1782 on: March 5, 2012, 12:14:12 pm »
didn't carragher sign a two year contract in October 2010 ?

3-year extension at 90k a week...
And if we're talking contract extensions, then the shameful one our vice captain was "given" merely hours before Cecil's helicopter fled the roof and the FSG tanks rolled into Anfield, must surely warrant a mention.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1783 on: March 5, 2012, 12:16:57 pm »
3-year extension at 90k a week...

I wonder whose idea that was.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1784 on: March 5, 2012, 12:19:14 pm »
I wonder whose idea that was.
Really? The details themselves make for eye-watering viewing, but the timing was really something else altogether.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1785 on: March 5, 2012, 12:22:13 pm »
Really? The details themselves make for eye-watering viewing, but the timing was really something else altogether.

Yeh it was ! i have always wanted to know at that time there was so much chaos with the board in the high court and everything - who actually sanctioned that contract ? if i remember it was announced during the high court battle .
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1786 on: March 5, 2012, 12:36:51 pm »
I hoped Kenny would prove ruthless but so far there's no evidence and plenty of scope for him to continue to play Carragher citing the increased games next season.

I copped a bit of flack in the 'How ruthless is Kenny Dalglish' thread for suggesting we wait and see what he does before proclaiming him as calculating and ruthless as many were saying he would be. Just because he was 20 odd years ago didnt mean he was the same person, or manager I said.

Even went as far to say Carra would be a good measuring stick. As he would be the first one in line to be cut given his abject performances.

But then Carra got injured and Kenny got a free pass. Up until that point Carra was very much still in Kenny's plans, despite his form. But then comes the injury and I bet Kenny couldn't believe his luck, indeed given how man penalties we've missed and how many times we've hit the woodwork he probably used all of his luck up with Jamie getting injured.

He had no decision to make, Carra wasnt dropped he was injured, Skrtel and Agger did the rest. They kept Carra out of the team, not Kenny.

But now Agger's not available, and who is it that's stepped in? Not the upstart Copa America winning, young player of the tournament Coates. Someone who's shown promise this season in his performances. Its the 34 year old, hardly had a good game in the past 18 months, revert to type Jamie Carragher.

How ruthless is that?

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1787 on: March 5, 2012, 12:46:37 pm »
I copped a bit of flack in the 'How ruthless is Kenny Dalglish' thread for suggesting we wait and see what he does before proclaiming him as calculating and ruthless as many were saying he would be. Just because he was 20 odd years ago didnt mean he was the same person, or manager I said.

Even went as far to say Carra would be a good measuring stick. As he would be the first one in line to be cut given his abject performances.

But then Carra got injured and Kenny got a free pass. Up until that point Carra was very much still in Kenny's plans, despite his form. But then comes the injury and I bet Kenny couldn't believe his luck, indeed given how man penalties we've missed and how many times we've hit the woodwork he probably used all of his luck up with Jamie getting injured.

He had no decision to make, Carra wasnt dropped he was injured, Skrtel and Agger did the rest. They kept Carra out of the team, not Kenny.

But now Agger's not available, and who is it that's stepped in? Not the upstart Copa America winning, young player of the tournament Coates. Someone who's shown promise this season in his performances. Its the 34 year old, hardly had a good game in the past 18 months, revert to type Jamie Carragher.

How ruthless is that?
That thread is exactly the one that I think of, now locked no doubt. I remember posting simply "Not whilst Carragher is starting" and so it seems to be.

What's even worse is the fact that Skrtel, who has been hugely impressive, has been shifted back to his weaker left just to further accommodate Carragher's ego/failings. It's madness why even aside from his other advantages, Coates as a left-favouring CB would not be the natural choice to replace Agger.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1788 on: March 5, 2012, 12:47:03 pm »
Obviously not using that laughable fantasy example.

That was the whole point of the example wasn't it?  How would you and your manager feel about your defending if taken apart by Kuyt in training? Picked apart by Suarez you'd probably just have a wry smile on your face and be thankful he was in your team.

The examples quoted were supposed to be examples of things none of us know anything about - are some of you seriously suggesting you do know and are somehow better equipped to judge because you've seen a lad play on tv and a couple of games for us?

Also for the record I'm not mounting a defence of Carragher - its a defence of the team selection process and the manager - this thread says more about Dalglish and his team selection more than any player - Dalglish picks the team - if Carragher's been in it then its Kenny's responsibility , if he's picked above Coates thats Dalglish's choice, the more criticsim thats heaped upon Carragher the more insulting of Dalglish's judgement it becomes - you may as well label the thread Dalglish doesn't know what he's doing and be done with it.  If the manager genuinely can't spot the types of things you are suggesting and they are so glaringly obvious then whats he doing? If his judgement really is so poor that would make him a liability more so than Carra wouldn't it?





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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1789 on: March 5, 2012, 12:48:50 pm »
That thread is exactly the one that I think of, now locked no doubt. I remember posting simply "Not whilst Carragher is starting" and so it seems to be.

What's even worse is the fact that Skrtel, who has been hugely impressive, has been shifted back to his weaker left just to further accommodate Carragher's ego/failings. It's madness why even aside from his other advantages, Coates as a left-favouring CB would not be the natural choice to replace Agger.

Out of curiosity why is he being shifted to the left? When carra and skrtel paired in 08 09 it was carra on the left and skrtel on the right, only when carra played with agger did he revert back to the right.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1790 on: March 5, 2012, 12:52:51 pm »
Also for the record I'm not mounting a defence of Carragher
Really? You sound like a member of his Royal Guard at times.

If the manager genuinely can't spot the types of things you are suggesting and they are so glaringly obvious then whats he doing? If his judgement really is so poor that would make him a liability more so than Carra wouldn't it?
That's just a straw man argument as far as I can see. All the facts suggest is that even if we are to assume Carragher has no influence, Kenny has, at best, a blind spot when it comes to starting him, just as he does (in a different way) to Adam. Every manager, even the best have them.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1791 on: March 5, 2012, 12:55:22 pm »
Out of curiosity why is he being shifted to the left? When carra and skrtel paired in 08 09 it was carra on the left and skrtel on the right, only when carra played with agger did he revert back to the right.
I don't know. Maybe the security of Johnson rather than Enrique covering his arse? After all, Jamie isn't a big fan of Spanish full-backs.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1792 on: March 5, 2012, 12:56:24 pm »
I don't know. Maybe the security of Johnson rather than Enrique covering his arse? After all, Jamie isn't a big fan of Spanish full-backs.

Doubt he'd go looking for a fight with Enrique though.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1793 on: March 5, 2012, 12:58:35 pm »
I don't know. Maybe the security of Johnson rather than Enrique covering his arse? After all, Jamie isn't a big fan of Spanish full-backs.

Or isit the simple fact that if johnson doesn't cover his ass glen will get the blame as he already had the tag of being a 'shite defender'?

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1794 on: March 5, 2012, 12:59:36 pm »
Yeh it was ! i have always wanted to know at that time there was so much chaos with the board in the high court and everything - who actually sanctioned that contract ? if i remember it was announced during the high court battle .
Christian Cecil Purslow.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1795 on: March 5, 2012, 01:02:31 pm »
Christian Cecil Purslow.
How long does Cara have left on his contract ?

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1796 on: March 5, 2012, 01:03:57 pm »
Doubt he'd go looking for a fight with Enrique though.
Really? He was screaming abuse in Soto's direction after Forlan's soft goal in the Atletico away leg, leaping up from flat on his arse after his attempted clearance naturally.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1797 on: March 5, 2012, 01:04:18 pm »
How long does Cara have left on his contract ?
Must be 18 months.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1798 on: March 5, 2012, 01:05:17 pm »
Christian Cecil Purslow.

aka piece of shit.... may he live forever in the anal of our history...

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1799 on: March 5, 2012, 01:09:25 pm »
Really? He was screaming abuse in Soto's direction after Forlan's soft goal in the Atletico away leg, leaping up from flat on his arse after his attempted clearance naturally.

Kyrgiakos didn't seem the type to get into arguments though, despite his physique. I get the impression that Enrique would have a lower threshold when being screamed at by his teammates.

You make a good point about Carragher though, and his tendency to let all and sundry know his feelings, regardless of whether they're correct or not and it's just another reason why he shouldn't be starting anymore.
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