Topic: RAWK Round Table: Sunderland 1-3 Liverpool

[Hinesy]

Welcome back Luis. For all your shenanigans we are but hypocrites and your redemption started here if not Wednesday. Toure meanwhile already looks to me an important part of the team. A 'cultural leader' as Sven Göran Eriksson used to look out for. Gerrard again will split opinion as will my opinion that Henderson needs not only shooting practice but passing practice and a couple of pints with Luis talking about the concept of space and movement.

Still, a win against a Sunderland team free of the fascist shackles is a good thing after our week.

Questions:
This 'new' formation:
Is it viable? How long do we give it to see if the double S's can accommodated?
How secure is Simon in goal? He reminds me a bit of Sander and Dracula. Terrified of crosses.
How long will teeth puns be used?

[Cpt_Reina]

Welcome back Luis. For all your shenanigans we are but hypocrites and your redemption started here if not Wednesday. Toure meanwhile already looks to me an important part of the team. A 'cultural leader' as Sven Göran Eriksson used to look out for. Gerrard again will split opinion as will my opinion that Henderson needs not only shooting practice but passing practice and a couple of pints with Luis talking about the concept of space and movement.

Still, a win against a Sunderland team free of the fascist shackles is a good thing after our week.

Questions:
This 'new' formation:
Is it viable? How long do we give it to see if the double S's can accommodated?
How secure is Simon in goal? He reminds me a bit of Sander and Dracula. Terrified of crosses.
How long will teeth puns be used?

Was an odd game, this one.

We never really looked comfortable, but then I dont think we ever looked like getting turned over either. Was it the system? I dont think so. I think the system's working just fine. It's getting the best out of a few of our lads.

It gets Suarez and Sturridge on the pitch, both as strikers.
It mean Enrique spends less time near our goal.
It means Skrtel is less on edge and nervy cos he has 2 other CBs to lean on. He looks good for it.

The problems right now is that we dont have Johnson on the right (he'll love it too) and we dont have Coutinho in the hole. Once we get them back, we could really be on to something.

If it turns out we're not, then it's easily remedied even in game. You take off a CB and revert to 4 at the back. Simple enough.

There is a problem though no matter what system we put in place, and that problem is our midfield pairing. Cos they're always going to be there, regardless of the setup around them and seemingly regardless of form.

It just isnt working. We need to start exploring alternatives, and thankfully Lucas has afforded us the opportunity by picking up his 5th booking in just the 6 games.

He's be the one I'd take out if given the choice as well. Cos he was useless against Sunderland. I dont like saying it because I was always with him, but he's not bringing anything to our team right now. Its the here and now that we need to concern ourselves with, Lucas is being babysat right now and we need so much more from *that* player.

The way he got played by Ki for their goal was awful. And it's becoming indicative of his overall play. It'll do us good to have a look at the team without him there.

We saw a couple of shades of Mignolet today, I dont personally think he's too prone to acting up on crosses. It's his kicking that's the issue. As it was always going to be I suppose. But that doesnt make the fact that it's coming to fruition any less annoying. He's not very good at it, and the opposition knows it. They press the fuck out of our defence knowing that their 'out' ball is to Mig, and that he will then more than likely ceed possession. Its something he needs to be working on, hopefully he is because it really does have affect our play.

His shot stopping though, remains excellent. People will say that he should have done better for the goal. And he should, but Lucas's non challenge was the main culprit there.

Suarez is back, happy days. Showed us nothing new and that's absolutely fine.

Sturridge seemed more than happy to share the limelight, and the workload. He looked much sharper for much longer than he has when having to carry the fight on his own. He'll love having Luis back. Rightfully so. He's the biggest fucking distraction a strike partner could ask for.

All in all, a mixed bag. But 2nd in the league and 3 points in the bag leaves the glass more than half full.

Oh, and dont play Moses there ever again. Wherever the fuck that was.

[Aristotle]

Welcome back Luis. For all your shenanigans we are but hypocrites and your redemption started here if not Wednesday.

Must. Resist. Urge. To. Comment.

Toure meanwhile already looks to me an important part of the team. A 'cultural leader' as Sven Göran Eriksson used to look out for.

What a man. What. A. Man. (or is that not allowed, in case this round table makes it on the BBC?) Toure is everything you want from an experienced center back. Said this before but he isn't Carra's replacement. He's the closest thing this club has had to Sami Hyypia for far, far too long. Aerially dominant. Smiles all around. Shoulders the blame and covers for others when they need to. Steps up when others are nervous. When you look at him play. When you look at how he interacts with the squad and how he talks in interviews you just feel warm and fuzzy inside. When you look at it it's hard to argue with the fact that he's been our de facto captain this season and done a wonderful job of it.

Gerrard again will split opinion as will my opinion that Henderson needs not only shooting practice but passing practice and a couple of pints with Luis talking about the concept of space and movement.

Gerrard had a pretty average game, to put it as neutrally as possible, but he still showed why he's being played every week. Much like Conte saw in Pirlo (and the advantages of the 3-5-2!) some players you just go the extra distance for. It's why I never understood people who thought Charlie Adam and Lucas worked well together. Gerrard's pass to Sturridge is as good as anything you will see. Any other player and that would be a career highlight. Gerrard though is doing it on the twilight of his career. He's still coming up short. His tracking of opposition players is getting to the point where I just have faith in our central defenders and Gerrard's ability to be deadly on the counter. But he still shows that even when he isn't playing well. Even when he looks absolutely dead in the water and left for dead there is still something there. I'll bet you anything, there isn't a person happier at Liverpool Football Club to have Suarez back. Suarez will be the go-to-guy when things aren't working out and that means less pressure on Gerrard. Less pressure is good for the legs and good for the mind.

Henderson is a bit of an enigma. I like him in the 'wingback' role. I did love his running though. Notice in the 3rd goal how he runs straight into the box, with two defenders on him. Then spotting (or knowing through experience) where Suarez will go he drags Cuellar to the near post leaving a huge radius for Suarez to tap home the clincher. He did this against Everton too, when Gerrard scored his hat trick. His movement drags players over from their positions. Whether they should just let him have the ball will surely be debated by some of his detractors, but he has that ability and raw energy to make defenders nervous when they see a running figure into the box when defending on the counter. It will be interesting to see if he gets the go ahead to play next to Gerrard with Lucas serving his suspension.

Still, a win against a Sunderland team free of the fascist shackles is a good thing after our week.

It's always the fear. Manager is sacked, fragile egos fear that the new one will drop them. Play out of their skin to show what they've got and then never again. It looked that way for the 5 minutes prior and after their goal. But after that we kept them at bay and afforded them enough rope to hang themselves.

Questions:
This 'new' formation:
Is it viable? How long do we give it to see if the double S's can accommodated?

I love a good 3-5-2, probably at an unhealthy level. With the squad we have, both at the back and up top. There's more reason to make it a permanent thing than to go away from it again.

How secure is Simon in goal? He reminds me a bit of Sander and Dracula. Terrified of crosses.

Mignolet has his weaknesses but my oh my does he look impressive in the goal. He looks 8 feet tall when shot at. There's no more gambling shots. There's no more deflections into the keeper's corner. Teams seem to fear him. Momentum (I refuse to use the word confidence as it has lost all meaning in today's game) is huge. Mignolet believes he can't be beaten and the opposition fears it too. With 3 center backs, relatively deep, I think he will be reliant on staying on the line where he is most effective and letting the men-turned-mountains in front of him deal with it.

How long will teeth puns be used?

As long as we have the taste of blood and the fangs to bite hard, who gives a shit!



*P.S. Late night thought. Mignolet, for the love of all things holy. Throw the ball instead of kicking it whenever humanly possible

[Zeb]

We'll not be too bad a team when we start playing I guess. We're stuttering our way to 3-1 wins. It's not that bad a place to be in right now. Just chugging along there, 4 wins in 6 and thinking 'we can play better than this'. And we can. The manager said the same. Whilst grinning.

Curious the switch in mood too. Suarez is now dessert, not starter and main course. Helps that the lad playing next to him is now 18 goals in 24 games, and seems to have also developed the happy knack of the ball now hitting him and bouncing into the net. Hard not to have taken a shine to Sturridge and two assists for Suarez as well. It's good, isn't it? The wee little Engelbert Humperdinck next to Sturridge now isn't the main focus. Maybe that'll be good for him. Saw someone commenting on how our shots per game were down this season. That'd be the Suarez effect - he must have had screaming abdabs when pulled away from the coconut shy at the local fair as a kid. 2 goals yesterday for him. Deserved too. Thought he worked hard. But then he always does, and then throws in some of the most ridiculous little moments you're likely to see on a football pitch. Backheel passes on the volley? Three man surrounding you at the corner flag, nutmeg them and back yourself to get the ball on the other side? Yeah, he's back and here's hoping that the absence now means things are more spread around the team. That would be healthy for us and for him.

We wondered about all these centre-halves and the answer was clearly playing 3 at the back. And Moses in the hole. There's a book in that. Probably one which cites Roy Evans as a muse. And, as with the Evans team, the call goes up that we need something else in midfield. Something big and strong and which launches itself into tackles, but who also has the touch of a beatified nun ministering to the poor and the passing ability of a Gerrard or a Souness. Absent that, a wee little snide? Lucas picks up a ban six games into the season. Not sure the central midfield pairing is quite working, and I'd lay some of that on Gerrard looking tired. Hangover from those internationals? Can we not send a ringer to do the Hodgson training sessions for him? Allen to come back properly into the team so maybe he'll help some there, and there's the love child from the lover's guide to sensual football (absent beard, sadly - someone should send him pictures of Xabi as inspiration, or maybe Ricky Villa?) of Luis Alberto to fit in at some stage in the longer term. Don't think Moses is really suited to the central position behind the front two, not quite there with the game nouse. Needs must, I know.

We were expected to win yesterday, we did. Away from home, no beachballs, no putsches, just 3 points and on to the next match with a reasonable defence and a decent pair of goal scorers up front. Few bits and pieces missing to the team - Johnson as the outball from the back is keenly missed (though what that means precisely is no doubt a subject for another transfer window) and that midfield three or two and a bit just doesn't look right. But we're back to winning.

[royhendo]

Lovely breaks though eh?

I stopped off in Carlisle on my long drive south to watch. Suarez v Torres has gotten some sporadic 'call it as you see it' comment over the weekend, most notably from Schmeichel, but it's true. Suarez got volleyed by Cattermole (was it?) while on the deck. Two boys in the boozer in Carlisle, neutrals, start up the 'he's a disgrace, he's on 200 grand a week, he's this, he's that...', and Mourinho says Vertonghen was the one to point fingers at the day before, so the world laps it up.

That's the way of the world.

Still, 3 points, midfield is the main gap, nobody's moaning about Aspas now so hopefully he's in the gym with a grudge.

[Juan Loco]

This 'new' formation:
Is it viable? How long do we give it to see if the double S's can accommodated?

Well we already saw they could be accommodated in it, didn't we?

As some will know, I'm a huge fan of 3 at the back. I liked it when we used it under Roy Evans. I think we've got to separate failures of system against failures of players. Roy Evans had poor defenders. They'd have been poor defenders play 4 at the back as well. Jose Enrique is an awful abomination of a footballer. He's going to be bad if he's playing at left back or left wing-back.

At the moment it looks like the best way to play our most threatening players in their favoured positions. Had we signed Mkhitarayan, Willian or Costa in the summer there wouldn't be as much need for it. I like it, but I can see that it basically puts the large majority of the goalscoring onus on the two strikers and the number ten. Stop those 3 players and that goes a long way to stopping Liverpool in this system. The problem is, if we play 4-2-3-1 when Coutinho comes back, someone will complain. They'll complain that Coutinho is being played out wide and not in his best position. Or they'll complain that Suarez is being played out wide and not in his best position. Or they'll complain that Sturridge is being played out wide and not in his best position. I think people would have accepted, for instance, Suarez playing wide this season and only scoring say 15 goals instead of the 20 he got last season, if out wide on the other side there was another player in a similar class. There's not. We can move one of Suarez, Sturridge or Coutinho out of position, but we're not bringing someone anywhere near as good into the team. We're bringing in Henderson, Moses or Aspas. Would you have moved one of Collymore, McManaman or Fowler out wide for the same of getting Mark Kennedy into the team?

The question for me is how we want to use it. So far we've used it to compensate for Skrtel's weakness and proclivity for looking to go back to Mignolet. It's definitely helped in that regard and he's responded with two good games. Is that what we want from it, or do we want to turn having a spare centerback into a position of strength and using Agger (or even Ilori, but people would be scared of that so soon) as a libero? Sakho and Toure are very strong markers (Skrtel can be at times too). I personally prefer to have a centerback in the middle who can step out with the ball. Agger's greatest strength is his awareness. He's our most likely defender to intercept a pass, and with the solidity of two very strong defenders behind him that could encourage him to step forward and provide overloads in the middle a lot more (Ilori would definitely do that).

More me the potential longevity of the system depends on how flexible you want to be with it. Against teams who play two up front it will always have a use (I'd be playing it against City this season). Against teams who come to Anfield and play one up top with the intention of leaving with a point and, if they're really lucky, sneaking a goal? Do you then want Toure, Skrtel & Sakho? I definitely don't. Cruyff at Barcelona and Van Gaal's Ajax team would play a fullback as one of the 3 at the back precisely because he could step out, attack and also give their forwards a problem about whether to track him or not. Johnson could do that. He played centrally at West Ham. Would it ever be tried? A lot of people would be having kittens if it was. Similarly, we saw Sterling end the match at wingback. Would we ever play him or Moses there from the start in a game against a weaker team with limited intent on attacking?

Unless you've got real specialist wingbacks (like Cafu and Carlos/Candela, or Lichsteiner) then a lot of whether it's practical to continue with comes down to how you want to use those roles at the back from game to game.

I think it suits the squad in general though. It gets the 3 important attackers in their best positions, and the players who you don't mind being versatile can be versatile. Moses/Sterling they can play as one of the two strikers (if it's with Suarez or Sturridge) or at wingback. Moses has been 'OK' in the hole as well (although I'd rather Alberto get a run). Henderson can play at wingback or in the center of midfield. Am I happier seeing these type of players being asked to 'do a job' than I would be Suarez, Sturridge or Coutinho in our current squad? I sure am.

How secure is Simon in goal? He reminds me a bit of Sander and Dracula. Terrified of crosses.

I honestly can't say I noticed this. 'Keepers get a hard time if they don't ooze authority on every cross they come for, but has his 'flapping' cost us a goal yet? The only one I can think of where Mignolet being nervy on crosses has may have cost us is Hernandez's goal midweek, where Mignolet probably should be coming in his six yard box. He's still well down the list of blame for that one.

Not seeing the nerves myself. He was involved in a counter-attack goal as well yesterday. Distribution, eh?

How long will teeth puns be used?

Hopefully not too long. They've molar less all been done at this point.

[Hinesy]

Bump

[MobileBayRed]

Not to step on your toes Hinesy, as you are the official roundtable questioner, but I was curious to get people's thoughts on our pressing in the opposition half.  Last season that was a staple of Rodgers' team.  Yesterday, there was ZERO pressing of Sunderland's back four.  Is that systematic, i.e. playing 3 at the back does not allow pressing so high up the pitch, or is that a personnel problem?  People seem to think the Lucas/Gerrard partnership is less than sterling at the moment, but is it chicken/egg dilemma.  Are they being put into bad positions becuase we are not pressing with our forwards, or are we unable to press with our forwards for fear of putting Gerrard/Lucas into a bad spot?

[Hinesy]

Hey fire in mate. I'm only here to nudge and encourage. Delighted to have other questions and thoughts.

[kasperoff]

An odd game and pretty frustrating to watch.

Not sure who's job it was to pick up Gardner, but he waltzed into the attacking 3rd far to often and far too easily and rattled off shots without pressure.

Cattermole wasn't really dealt with and had far too much joy in the midfield.

Henderson was a square peg really. I admire the fact that he gave his all, but Johnson can't come back soon enough.

Something needs to be done in midfield, because the Lucas/Gerrard combo lacks bite, dynamism and aggression at the moment. That said, some of Gerrard's passing was sublime and not something you'd really want to take out of the team. But then he doesn't seem to be able to put the same sort of defensive shift in that Lucas does, and I think we need two Lucas type players to really control that area.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Perhaps Lucas and Hendo/Allen in the middle, and find another place for Gerrard? I wouldn't mind seeing him in 'the hole' behind Sturridge and Suarez whilst Coutinho is out. Perhaps all 3 of Allen, Lucas and Henderson in behind?

In the end, it didn't really matter that we struggled to dominate, because when we have Sturridge and Suarez up front, we'll always have a chance of winning. A quality pairing who have a great understanding and respect for each other. Both deadly to boot. As good as they are individually, I reckon together, they could be even greater than the sum of their parts.

[Filler.]

Had to offer gifts and promises to my 3 1/2 year old to leave an afternoon in the park. Got home in good time. Bugger, my bike was in the bus station. Need to walk fast to the pub. Get there for 3:55. Gaelic football on. Fucks sake... a 4 minute walk to the next option. Closed. Closed! Next one, no Sky, just BT... next one... playing the game. Great. But no sound. Sound wasn't working. Just loads of funk and soul, some good Michael Jackson and not the crap stuff. Sounded like a set from Hass but for a kids party. Total mindfuck tho while trying to watch the footy.

I'd enjoyed a few of Macca's posts, well before the game, who managed to blow away my own inclination towards 'pantie wetting' about omens et al. To believe in omens etc (the new manager coming in, facing a bouyed squad after that daft bugger gets the boot) is the stuff of an overblown ego, and unfortunately, it does me everytime, so Macca's posts really cleared the tubes. That said, I've dragged the wife to eight games at Anfield and she's never seen us win. She's permanently barred.

Was SO important to win this game. So often when others about us have that once, maybe twice in a season duff day at the office, we usually seem to fall in line. Could be wrong, but feels like we do. It was a great win, a vital win, and I don't care that they're bottom right now, the table is a lie until November. Sunderland played well, and it could have been very different. Mignolet's save with his right boot when the fella was offside was a very big moment, as the goal would have stood. He's saved us from being around the likes of Cardiff and Manchester United probably. There's a few issues there, but you can't dismiss how important he's been - he's just been there at a key moment.


And I like this 3412. I liked the look of it the other day too. To me it's not a 352, but a clear 3412. Maybe I'm over complicating it unnecessarily but hey. To me it's a 3412... there's a defined '1' in there. And in that '1', we had Moses, who isn't ideal as he doesn't have the silky toes of a Coutinho, tho he had a pretty good game even so. One or two times, maybe three, and you were imagining what Coutinho would have done instead of a Moses.

It reminds me of Rafa's 4231 in a way. I always looked at Kuyt and Riera as being flankers in a scrum, and Henderson and Enrique are doing something similar. With Rafa's 4231, those wide players mainly occupied the oppo's full backs and made sure they were neutralised as best we could, offering a bit in attack. 'Staying compact', we'd suffocate teams till the ball fell to, or was won by Gerrard in the middle of the pitch and Torres would then make a bended run off the shoulder of the oppo's centre backs. But this formation gives us two outlets up front.

Every formation has an achilles heal, to be exploited by the oppo and in this formation, it's obviously where the full backs would be if we played 4 at the back, but Enrique and Henderson act like corks to stop the ball from being played back to their full backs, but I think with Toure and Sakho/Agger... there's enough there to get round that problem against quite a few teams. The only formation that doesn't have an achilles heal is the ol' 4232, that Man United used to play under Ferguson, allowing Howard Webb a free role all over the pitch. Thought he had a typically good game again.

But it does seem to be a formation that can maybe get the best out of Suarez and Sturridge (which I think looked a problem), and their involvement with all the goals was very very encouraging. I don't think it would be wise to have a marauding pair of wing backs tho.. but I would like to see Johnson in Henderson's position. Or Enrique's. Henderson is a bit too 'square' over there, and Enrique is a box of frogs. If we had an Isla and say an Alba... then that would be interesting, tho those gaps may be a bit too yawning for comfort. I don't know. It also lessens the weight of responsibility a little on Lucas and Gerrard, having 3 behind them - wondered if this was in part why we're seeing it. All in all, it's a formation that makes some sense to me.

One thing I find a bit odd tho, is that we have Coutinho out, we have Moses playing where he'd play, and we don't have Alberto on the bench. I only learned that today as the interweb was down in the area from about 7 ish last night. Thought Sterling looked bright and made a particularly bright run, but I couldn't work that out. Rodgers sees them day in day out of course, goes without saying, but can't help but Roger Moore an eyebrow about it. Irrational man love for him is probably to blame.

[Hinesy]

Sorry, this thread shouldn't have been stickied. Probably my fat thumbs. Thanks to Aristole for pointing it out.

[CHOPPER]

[enigma]

Had to offer gifts and promises to my 3 1/2 year old to leave an afternoon in the park. Got home in good time. Bugger, my bike was in the bus station. Need to walk fast to the pub. Get there for 3:55. Gaelic football on. Fucks sake... a 4 minute walk to the next option. Closed. Closed! Next one, no Sky, just BT... next one... playing the game. Great. But no sound. Sound wasn't working. Just loads of funk and soul, some good Michael Jackson and not the crap stuff. Sounded like a set from Hass but for a kids party. Total mindfuck tho while trying to watch the footy.

I'd enjoyed a few of Macca's posts, well before the game, who managed to blow away my own inclination towards 'pantie wetting' about omens et al. To believe in omens etc (the new manager coming in, facing a bouyed squad after that daft bugger gets the boot) is the stuff of an overblown ego, and unfortunately, it does me everytime, so Macca's posts really cleared the tubes. That said, I've dragged the wife to eight games at Anfield and she's never seen us win. She's permanently barred.

Was SO important to win this game. So often when others about us have that once, maybe twice in a season duff day at the office, we usually seem to fall in line. Could be wrong, but feels like we do. It was a great win, a vital win, and I don't care that they're bottom right now, the table is a lie until November. Sunderland played well, and it could have been very different. Mignolet's save with his right boot when the fella was offside was a very big moment, as the goal would have stood. He's saved us from being around the likes of Cardiff and Manchester United probably. There's a few issues there, but you can't dismiss how important he's been - he's just been there at a key moment.


And I like this 3412. I liked the look of it the other day too. To me it's not a 352, but a clear 3412. Maybe I'm over complicating it unnecessarily but hey. To me it's a 3412... there's a defined '1' in there. And in that '1', we had Moses, who isn't ideal as he doesn't have the silky toes of a Coutinho, tho he had a pretty good game even so. One or two times, maybe three, and you were imagining what Coutinho would have done instead of a Moses.

It reminds me of Rafa's 4231 in a way. I always looked at Kuyt and Riera as being flankers in a scrum, and Henderson and Enrique are doing something similar. With Rafa's 4231, those wide players mainly occupied the oppo's full backs and made sure they were neutralised as best we could, offering a bit in attack. 'Staying compact', we'd suffocate teams till the ball fell to, or was won by Gerrard in the middle of the pitch and Torres would then make a bended run off the shoulder of the oppo's centre backs. But this formation gives us two outlets up front.

Every formation has an achilles heal, to be exploited by the oppo and in this formation, it's obviously where the full backs would be if we played 4 at the back, but Enrique and Henderson act like corks to stop the ball from being played back to their full backs, but I think with Toure and Sakho/Agger... there's enough there to get round that problem against quite a few teams. The only formation that doesn't have an achilles heal is the ol' 4232, that Man United used to play under Ferguson, allowing Howard Webb a free role all over the pitch. Thought he had a typically good game again.

But it does seem to be a formation that can maybe get the best out of Suarez and Sturridge (which I think looked a problem), and their involvement with all the goals was very very encouraging. I don't think it would be wise to have a marauding pair of wing backs tho.. but I would like to see Johnson in Henderson's position. Or Enrique's. Henderson is a bit too 'square' over there, and Enrique is a box of frogs. If we had an Isla and say an Alba... then that would be interesting, tho those gaps may be a bit too yawning for comfort. I don't know. It also lessens the weight of responsibility a little on Lucas and Gerrard, having 3 behind them - wondered if this was in part why we're seeing it. All in all, it's a formation that makes some sense to me.

One thing I find a bit odd tho, is that we have Coutinho out, we have Moses playing where he'd play, and we don't have Alberto on the bench. I only learned that today as the interweb was down in the area from about 7 ish last night. Thought Sterling looked bright and made a particularly bright run, but I couldn't work that out. Rodgers sees them day in day out of course, goes without saying, but can't help but Roger Moore an eyebrow about it. Irrational man love for him is probably to blame.

Interesting posts, especially trying to define the formation.

We've played a few different ones this season already, haven't we!

Going into the game, playing bottom of the league, you'd either hope or expect a win, and that's exactly what we achieved.  I think simply we could play better if everyone was fit, but it was an open game and we won - both teams looked dangerous on the attack.

I think when you sit back and analyse what you say, regardless of opposition it was an open game and there were chances at both ends - maybe we rode our luck, but you could also call it being more clinical and having the rub of the green.  We've used this against us for years when United have been winning but barring the first goal, we looked a threat going forward and took our chances and won - that should be the most important factor...

I think we have a very very good goalkeeper in Mignolet, and some great defenders ahead - Toure has been absolutely amazing since joining us and I think over the course of the season, our defense will be up there with the best of them - for the first time in ages, we have pace, power and height - alongside that, there is competition, I think we'll improve as the season goes on.

Midfield isn't our strongest area; yes we miss Coutinho but I think there's more to it than that - there are question marks over Gerrard and  Lucas in the midfield - perhaps we can bring in a real ball winner in January, and I'm still not convinced if Henderson and Moses are the solutions for the wide/ forward positions.

Up front, Suarez as many have said bought exactly what we knew he would but to be fair I think the credit has to be for Sturridge - defending them is tough as between them they have everything and seem to link up well together...

Overall, happy we didn't fold when Sunderland got the goal back but I think if we have top 4 aspirations, we still need something else in the midfield to give us more balance....

Delighted with the result, and long may it continue, but I think we need a little bit more structure and class in the midfield if we want to continue these results...

[Bob Sacamano]

Not to step on your toes Hinesy, as you are the official roundtable questioner, but I was curious to get people's thoughts on our pressing in the opposition half.  Last season that was a staple of Rodgers' team.  Yesterday, there was ZERO pressing of Sunderland's back four.  Is that systematic, i.e. playing 3 at the back does not allow pressing so high up the pitch, or is that a personnel problem?  People seem to think the Lucas/Gerrard partnership is less than sterling at the moment, but is it chicken/egg dilemma.  Are they being put into bad positions becuase we are not pressing with our forwards, or are we unable to press with our forwards for fear of putting Gerrard/Lucas into a bad spot?

This is my biggest question as well. Why aren't we pressing...like at all?

It might make our defense more vulnerable, but winning the ball in midfield more often would do wonders for an attack that seems completely reliant on Suarez and Sturridge to do everything.

And with Sakho and Toure on the back line now...we have enough recovery pace...right?

[Vulmea]

I'm hornswaggled by our approach to games to be honest this game didn't help

[Eeyore]

At the moment it seems we are happy to drop deep, defend our box and allow teams to shoot from distance in exchange for a stretched game that allows us space on the counter attack. It is incredible how many shots at goal we have conceded away from home. With Suarez and Sturridge in form it seems like a gamble worth taking but it will be interesting to see how things pan out against the better teams.

[steveeastend]

At the moment it seems we are happy to drop deep, defend our box and allow teams to shoot from distance in exchange for a stretched game that allows us space on the counter attack. It is incredible how many shots at goal we have conceded away from home. With Suarez and Sturridge in form it seems like a gamble worth taking but it will be interesting to see how things pan out against the better teams.

I think we don´t have a choice here at the moment. With Sturridge and Suarez not on 100% fitness and Coutinho out (the one providing quality for having more possession and control around the attacking center), there is no way to press or play a high line. Add to this the absence of Johnson and still having Enrique around makes it´s pretty impossible to ask for much more at the moment IMO.

Besides that, this games shows that it´s still more about showing the right attitude, doing the basics right, closing down, making themselves available, trying to force themselves into a game etc. which provides the plattform for benfiting from the quality upfront we have around with the likes of Suarez and Sturrdidge.

At the moment, there is nothing wrong with that, we rely on the outstanding quality in our attack and it´s the way it should be when trying to make it through difficult weeks with too many players out. Be clever while still aware of the workrate necessary for gaining points.

At the same time, like others, I am a little worried about our midfield, especially Gerrard. There are moments in every game where he seems to be invisible, moments where you get the impression the players around him carrying him back into the game by going on with their own game, he seems to pick up then just to fade out minutes later in different positions on the pitch, somewhere in between world class moments and totally staying out of the game...all to do with him coming to this certain stage of his carreer where the body denies him to do things the way he used to. We´ll see how it works and how he will decide to manage himself around that.

[bepoq]

This is my biggest question as well. Why aren't we pressing...like at all?

It might make our defense more vulnerable, but winning the ball in midfield more often would do wonders for an attack that seems completely reliant on Suarez and Sturridge to do everything.

And with Sakho and Toure on the back line now...we have enough recovery pace...right?

I was thinking about this in one of the other threads and wondering the same. It couldn't be more of this extended periodisation business could it? First we worked on the attack, last season, while doing all Rodgers's other stuff such as pressing a bit and holding the ball as best we could, now we work on the defence (where defence means what happens once a press is broken), subsequently we add the press back in. Doesn't quite account for what seems to be an entire absence of pressing and keeping the ball, and would be a very brave longterm way of proceeding (though one would argue it seems to be working very well at the moment). Maybe our resident coaching expert could comment?

With regard to Mignolet, I've not really noticed the crossing issue either—and I thought he took a couple of them with authority yesterday. More, his shot stopping is good enough at the moment that I think he really is an intimidating force in goal for the opposition. Nevertheless, there is the issue of his defending with the ball and his distribution, which is, I think, a genuine problem at the moment. For all that we've been spoiled with one of the finest ever to play the game in that particular respect (that is how high I'd place Pepe) with both foot and hand, I still think that Mignolet is below what we ought to expect. However, we're doing him no favours—dropping deep and frequently playing it to him at the last minute when we've been pushed back still further and the distance between their forwards and him is short to begin with and closing rapidly does us no favours—I think even Pepe would suffer. It's another reason that I can't quite understand our current approach of neither pressing nor moving the entire team up the pitch.

The formation I quite like, and think I'll like it more with Coutinho. It not only keeps both Suarez and Sturridge close to the goal most of the time, it takes advantage of the fact that both of them like to regularly drop out wide to get the ball and attack inward—second goal a great example of this—and even when they do there will always be a genuine goal scorer heading to the goal. Moses, who I've yet to decide what I think about generally, I think I've decided I don't like as a number ten—he doesn't seem to have the quick pass through when finally brought under pressure, and I'm not sure either of our full forwards is quite so likely to give him the ball back for late runs through (would Micky tyre iron have suffered from this—wonder if Erickson, style-wise might have actually worked rather well with s and s). Still, I'd like to see the whole formation move up the pitch significantly and our midfielders and forwards give it time to do so, a la Rafa, particularly Gerrard and Lucas who I think could each do some serious damage further up, Gerrard actually on goal and with incisive passing and occasional runs, and Lucas with his intercepting and tackling, recycling and rachetting (huh, suddenly I can't spell wratcheting... ratcheting? ah, there we go) up the pressure. Then the ball back to Mignolet would really be a proper release, and the opposition would be the ones getting knackered both mentally and physically.

Width-wise, rather hard to tell. This formation might well suite Johnson best of any we might try—plenty of room for him to operate, invited to attack, defenders being pulled about in front of him by two lads they're terrified of and a lesser defensive duty. I think Juan is going a bit heavy on Enrique, though I am looking forward to seeing Cissokho (no idea how he'll suit this system).

In short, good result. Really enjoyed the second and third goals and suarez and sturridge's better moments together. Like the formation. Worried about the midfield, but think it may be partly down to strategy and hope that holding the ball and pushing up a bit further will help as much as different players.

Oh, finally, even if Agger might (as some clever person above said) suit the middle of the 3 very well, what fine work has been done with Sktl. No only successfully reintegrated, such that he can be great cover for the three, or even rest for Toure (who as long as he doesn't need it would be my first name on the team sheet at the mo.) but his value must once more be headed well North so that even if we do have to part with him, we should be able to get a good offer. Well played there Brendan.

[didi shamone]

O.K looking at the above I guess I'm going to be the contrarian here. I really dislike the system. Three at the back it's being called but in reality we're playing five at the back. We're shoe horning two players into wing backs. One is a midfielder and the other a left back who's weakest aspect is his attacking play. Now I know those who love this system will be quick to counter with Johnson and the Cissoko.  Johnson would help ok and Cissoko is an unknown quantity.  When we loose the ball (something we do with alarming regularity) we retreat to a back five with our two defensive midfielders sitting very close. Theres a huge gap to our attack which one player is supposed to bridge. Moses isn't capable of being that player (and I really like him when in his natural position) and it's a massive ask for Coutinho too. We've one defender too many and we're short one midfielder. The 4 3 3 that served us well in the second half of last season can't come back quick enough for me. For the current system to work I feel we would need to replace one if not both of Gerrard and Lucas for quicker more dynamic players and sign a couple of wing backs. Also probably an even more attack minded centre half than any of our plethora of current options.  Would love to hear POPs opinion on it. I don't for a minute claim to be an expert.

On the game itself I felt we were slightly better than Sunderland but the difference being the fact that we have two exceptional forwards. Suarez is world class and anyone that thinks otherwise is far more mental than the little lunatic himself. Sturridge is a cracking player. I was all for signing him because I knew he'd score a few but had no idea just how good a player he is. They need more support from midfield though and I can't see it coming in our current system. Again against the grain I thought Lucas was very good,our best midfielder in fact. Gerrard was better than the previous games too but despite his wonder pass only did ok. Needs a rest but that won't happen anytime soon with Lucas out. He'll be our sole defensive midfielder against palace and will have to cover a lot of ground despite the quality of opposition.

Henderson had a bit of a nightmare at wingback. Hate seeing him there. Will get his chance in the middle next week surely and needs to up it. Mignolet had a few ropey moments too. Perhaps the return got to both of them?

Our three centre halfs did well although I don't see any reason we needed them as it seems to be at the expense of a midfielder.

Moans aside though three points away from home is always a great result.

[Prof]

in case this round table makes it on the BBC?

Have I missed something?

[Vulmea]

At the moment it seems we are happy to drop deep, defend our box and allow teams to shoot from distance in exchange for a stretched game that allows us space on the counter attack. It is incredible how many shots at goal we have conceded away from home. With Suarez and Sturridge in form it seems like a gamble worth taking but it will be interesting to see how things pan out against the better teams.

its not just shoot from distance, but cross, set pieces etc - if that is genuinely the plan - its  a pretty bad plan - are we betting on Mignolets shot stopping? - I can't see how its justified by absentees when we've played it from day one - we've played well for 30 minutes spells - then sat back not just sat back but dropped the tempo to a standstill  - I can understand sitting back if we had a defence like we did under rafa when we concede half chances but we give up chances all the time

its a bit odd I was expecting a style , a clinical, passionless approach but a style   - instead we just seem a bit of a mess - the ball retention is poor, the movement isn't great, the defensive shape isn't great -  confused is what I am

[Yorkykopite]

its not just shoot from distance, but cross, set pieces etc - if that is genuinely the plan - its  a pretty bad plan - are we betting on Mignolets shot stopping? - I can't see how its justified by absentees when we've played it from day one - we've played well for 30 minutes spells - then sat back not just sat back but dropped the tempo to a standstill  - I can understand sitting back if we had a defence like we did under rafa when we concede half chances but we give up chances all the time

its a bit odd I was expecting a style , a clinical, passionless approach but a style   - instead we just seem a bit of a mess - the ball retention is poor, the movement isn't great, the defensive shape isn't great -  confused is what I am

That post looks as if a group of thirty people just pulled words randomly out of a hat and someone stuck them together while wearing a blindfold.

[Vulmea]

That post looks as if a group of thirty people just pulled words randomly out of a hat and someone stuck them together while wearing a blindfold.

no - then -  change

[liverbnz]

What chances did we concede vulmea? One over the top first half but other than that we restricted them to shots outside the box.

Plus, I don't think we sat back as such either. We had more of the ball for the first 30 minutes following HT which is surely how you kill a game off - death by football someone might say. Granted we ceded possession in the last 15 a bit but we're still learning. The more results we pull off like yesterday the less nervous we'll be in the later stages of games.

[helmboy_nige]

I like 3 at the back. It seems to create more stability at the back. Unfortunately the problem still lies in midfield which has little mobility and is far too easily put under pressure.

Henderson had a 'mare (first in a long time though) and he shouldn't be placed at right wingback. Get him in the middle and ask him to prove himself. He deserves the chance.

Toure is awesome and Sakho is coming along nicely. Was really impressed with Skrtel who seems to be rehabilitating nicely.

I'm quite pleased that Mignolet seems to be being pressed to persevere with short passing. He will improve and just needs to stick with it. What was great about the final goal was that it started with some quick thinking from Mignolet. I actually thought he dealt with the crosses okay, in that he showed more confidence to come out.

Great to have Suarez back and his linkup play with Sturridge was superb.

[JackWard33]

People keep talking about mobility in midfield and I'm not sure it's the problem

For most of the games there's been a massive yawning chasm between our midfield and our attacking players except when we're 'shelling' and have 10 behind the ball
This means when we recover possession, if we're being pressed, we quickly run out of options and either play ourselves into trouble or hit it long
We don't have players that link the midfield and attack (partly due to our CMs sitting so deep and partly due to our deficiencies at full back which are squad wide regardless of fitness) and we're not compensating by playing as a team

I don't really understand why we're playing so deep so often and dragging our midfield back. I haven't studied our back line positions but we have the pace and players to play a high back line and play far more compact so I don't know why we're not doing it

The result is a decent one and we have some properly frightening forward players that our going to test every team they play against
The worry is Sunderland are probably the worst team in the league and yet we couldn't control the midfield against them so we have to improve

The good thing is we can play much better (as we showed at the end of last season) and we've got points on the board while not playing well

[JackWard33]

The way he got played by Ki for their goal was awful. And it's becoming indicative of his overall play. It'll do us good to have a look at the team without him there.

Just read through the thread and I can't let this slide about Lucas.
You may or not have a point about Lucas (personally I disagree but its certainly debatable) but their goal is absolutely not an example of him playing badly

He's 5/6 yards off Ki (correctly) when he picks up the ball 30 yards out. Lucas moves to cut off Ki's passing option inside. If Ki wants to run at him he has plenty of time to get across.
Ki takes a terrible option which is shooting from a good 25 yards out. If Lucas gets CMs to shoot from 25 yards out all season it'll be tough to have complaints about him because that's exactly what we want them to do if the ball can't be won back. The fact that it results in a goal is nothing to do with anything Lucas does or doesn't do

[DanA]

My take on it.

Mignolet has his weaknesses, he's not brilliant with crosses and I thought should have done better with 3-4 balls in the air against Sunderland, he's also not great with his distribution which has been discussed at length though huge credit must be given for his quick release throw that lead to the goal. In this game I thought he could have done better stopping for Sunderland goal but it wasn't a howler, it's just usually his shot stopping is magnificent, here it was a 6/10 effort.  Definitely we've got a fine keeper but with a lot to work on, remember he's only 25, already one of the best keepers in the league with another 2-3 years he could be one of the great keepers.

On the back three: Really happy with how it functions. Sakho and Toure have good distribution and are comfortable on the ball while being pressed, they also both are fantastic at stepping up and meeting players.  Skrtel too looks much more comfortable as the more conservative CB, the last four games he's cleared a ridiculous number of dangerous balls out of the box and always seems in the right spot. I think he's been a revelation.

The midfield: IMO Gerrard/Lucas is not as bad as it's being made out. They're winning a truckload of the ball back, Gerrard's distribution is just ridiculously good and both are recycling the ball well. It's not easy though when you don't have a proper no.10 helping out and we're losing possession quickly as we go into attack. I think most of our midfield problems would be solved if we could find a hard working no.10. Moses who I rate isn't right for the role.

On the formation: It's not my first choice but IMO 3-5-2 is the best choice we've got for the time being and I think by some margin. On so many levels it works better for us.
1. Henderson would be exposed as a RB but playing a CB there IMO is worse. Hendo as a wing back IMO is a good compromise for now
2. Skrtel, Sakho, Agger and Toure are IMO in our top 8 players. We need as many of them on the pitch as possible (while remaining balanced)
3. We need a formation with 2 strikers up top
4. We need to protect our midfield partnership which have there limitations.

For me the Sunderland was far from perfect but extremely promising. Hope to see more of the 3-5-2 and I hope to see those players in it with perhaps Moses coming out for Alberto or Allen.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Just read through the thread and I can't let this slide about Lucas.
You may or not have a point about Lucas (personally I disagree but its certainly debatable) but their goal is absolutely not an example of him playing badly

He's 5/6 yards off Ki (correctly) when he picks up the ball 30 yards out. Lucas moves to cut off Ki's passing option inside. If Ki wants to run at him he has plenty of time to get across.
Ki takes a terrible option which is shooting from a good 25 yards out. If Lucas gets CMs to shoot from 25 yards out all season it'll be tough to have complaints about him because that's exactly what we want them to do if the ball can't be won back. The fact that it results in a goal is nothing to do with anything Lucas does or doesn't do

He started off 10 yards off, and then steps to 5 yards off. Neither is ideal 30 yards from goal, against two forwards and a running midfielder, with two spare players, and three central defenders. He should have stepped more aggressively, to be honest.

[Aristotle]

Have I missed something?

Fowler said Verthongen and Torres had been fighting like a bunch of girls and was forced to apologise later in the broadcast for his comments.

[JackWard33]

He started off 10 yards off, and then steps to 5 yards off. Neither is ideal 30 yards from goal, against two forwards and a running midfielder, with two spare players, and three central defenders. He should have stepped more aggressively, to be honest.

I'm not sure he has time to do that. He's already back near the edge of the box before the pass that Ki receives not sure committing himself to the ball carrier (whose a long way out) is what he should be doing there
Regardless I don't see how Lucas is relevant in the goal - if CMs want to take digs from that distance we've done our job defensively

[PhaseOfPlay]

I'm not sure he has time to do that. He's already back near the edge of the box before the pass that Ki receives not sure committing himself to the ball carrier (whose a long way out) is what he should be doing there
Regardless I don't see how Lucas is relevant in the goal - if CMs want to take digs from that distance we've done our job defensively

He had all the time from before Ki received it in the first place. You pressure as the ball is moving. 10 yards can be closed in 1.5 seconds by a top pro. He would have forced Ki into a different first touch, and wouldn't allow him to shift his body to get a straight shot through a defender 30 yards out. He had two covering options, in Gerrard and Henderson, and 3 defenders in a wall behind them, again. So pressing aggressively should have been his first option. I agree that CM's taking shots from that distance is not a bad thing, but you still don't want to give them an easy shot, and Ki had time to place his shot, and that's what should have been prevented.

[Beninger]

I thought Stevie and Hendo marking nobody for that goal was a bigger issue than Lucas.  Even though Lucas could have done better, I feel he got caught in two minds there.

[jckliew]

He had all the time from before Ki received it in the first place. You pressure as the ball is moving. 10 yards can be closed in 1.5 seconds by a top pro. He would have forced Ki into a different first touch, and wouldn't allow him to shift his body to get a straight shot through a defender 30 yards out. He had two covering options, in Gerrard and Henderson, and 3 defenders in a wall behind them, again. So pressing aggressively should have been his first option. I agree that CM's taking shots from that distance is not a bad thing, but you still don't want to give them an easy shot, and Ki had time to place his shot, and that's what should have been prevented.

I agree.
In the game, our CMs did not close down on the Sunderland's CMs fast enough.
They were taking many pot shots at will, one of which resulted in their goal. 

[JackWard33]

He had all the time from before Ki received it in the first place. You pressure as the ball is moving. 10 yards can be closed in 1.5 seconds by a top pro. He would have forced Ki into a different first touch, and wouldn't allow him to shift his body to get a straight shot through a defender 30 yards out. He had two covering options, in Gerrard and Henderson, and 3 defenders in a wall behind them, again. So pressing aggressively should have been his first option. I agree that CM's taking shots from that distance is not a bad thing, but you still don't want to give them an easy shot, and Ki had time to place his shot, and that's what should have been prevented.

I  disagree - watch the footage again
He has two men - Ki and a man off to his right who is sitting in 5 yards of space; he has to hedge between the two.
If he charges out to close down Ki slips the ball to the other guy whose closing in on the D - a WAY more dangerous position to shoot from

[PhaseOfPlay]

I  disagree - watch the footage again
He has two men - Ki and a man off to his right who is sitting in 5 yards of space; he has to hedge between the two.
If he charges out to close down Ki slips the ball to the other guy whose closing in on the D - a WAY more dangerous position to shoot from

Skrtel is blocking that lane. That shot wouldn't have been the same situation. Any failure to close down a shot in that area is asking for trouble.

We'll have to agree to disagree though. I will say, however, that if you were on my team, and you failed to close down shots like that from that distance to goal enough times, you'd be spending the time on the bench watching another midfielder doing the job instead

[JackWard33]

Skrtel is blocking that lane. That shot wouldn't have been the same situation. Any failure to close down a shot in that area is asking for trouble.

We'll have to agree to disagree though. I will say, however, that if you were on my team, and you failed to close down shots like that from that distance to goal enough times, you'd be spending the time on the bench watching another midfielder doing the job instead

Skrtel is nowhere near that guy at the point Lucas hedges towards him - if he goes to the ball carrier the second guy receives the ball in space just outside our D .....so yeah we will agree to disagree

If you were playing on my team and you charged a player nearly 30 yards out allowing him to bypass you and pass it to someone in a more dangerous position when the player in possession is no threat I'd be telling you I don't give a fuck about players shooting from 30 yards.
I wouldn't bench you because our squad is thin and you're not so bad that I'd put a kid in for you

[harleydanger]

I like the formation, it's just our two in CM subtracting from it at the moment. You can see it when we try to pass out from the back, there was never a central option and our CBs would just end up getting boxed in and going long. Which brings us to Mignolets distribution, I think it's fine. The problem we have is half the team have been used to having Messi in goals and get lazy knocking it back. That's putting him under pressure.

I'd like to see Henderson have an extended run in CM, or at least Allan. Lucas is playing catch up a lot of the time, and while I don't think it's all his fault-Gerrad's positioning seems like it always was, shakey- I do believe he's not doing enough to warrant keeping Allan or Henderson from at least having a few games there. But at the moment, bar the odd. Gerard magic moment, which he'd pull from anywhere, the game is just passing them by.

But honestly, I'm happy, we're not playing amazingly and we're still 2nd. If we can find that next gear we'll be looking good for a CL spot.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Skrtel is nowhere near that guy at the point Lucas hedges towards him - if he goes to the ball carrier the second guy receives the ball in space just outside our D .....so yeah we will agree to disagree

If you were playing on my team and you charged a player nearly 30 yards out allowing him to bypass you and pass it to someone in a more dangerous position when the player in possession is no threat I'd be telling you I don't give a fuck about players shooting from 30 yards.
I wouldn't bench you because our squad is thin and you're not so bad that I'd put a kid in for you

To be fair, I did say "pressure" and "close down", rather than "charge", so we might be talking about two different things. You say 5 yards is fine, I say 1-3 yards is better. The problem is, they scored from a clear and open shot that rebounded out to an untracked midfielder. Ki had time and space to make that shot, and my contention is that he could and should have been closed down better. 5 yards at that level is nothing. I failed my first UEFA licence the first time on 5 yards. The topic was pressing in the defending 1/3. I had it just as you did, but it was wrong. 1-3 yards was the answer, in much the same situation. The bonus of three at the back is you have the spare man for precisely those situations, and if Skrtel doesn't slip, Giaccherini ceases to be an option for the pass. Without Skrtel there, you'd be right, because then Toure has to step off his own man to take care of Giaccherini. But that pass that you say is on was the lesser of two evils. The greater was the shot, which Ki took, and which ultimately caused the goal.