Author Topic: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form  (Read 195174 times)

Offline mybacklight

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1520 on: August 25, 2009, 12:23:39 pm »
Can the Lucas arse kisses give some examples of when Lucas has performed at a decent level enough to deserve a part in one of the most important roles available in a team?


Offline billypilgrimnz

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1521 on: August 25, 2009, 12:25:18 pm »
Yossi off Torres, Kuyt right for me. :)

If Kuyt has to play, I'd rather he was in the centre. He is better popping up on the end of crosses than trying to provide them. Plus, I'd like to see Bennayoun and Johnson together, see what they can do.

Offline TipTopKop

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1522 on: August 25, 2009, 12:26:52 pm »
No Lucas was not to blame for the defeat against Spurs or last night but just because he is not to blame doesn't mean he is anywhere near good enough to play in our starting 11 either.
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Offline Gerrard[LFC]

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1523 on: August 25, 2009, 12:27:33 pm »
To me, Lucas has:

1. an excellent first touch
2. excellent first touch passing
3. technical skills to beat players with the ball at feet
4. an eye for a run

which is off-set by:

5. a complete lack of confidence in running the midfield
6. an inclination to pass sideways (probably related to #5)
7. not doing enough to show for the ball from the back, letting Masch take it too often (again, related to #5)
8. an unwillingess to try long or through balls

5-8 can be remedied, but how long can we wait for him to at least to get involved and boss a game, just to see if he can do it. I think Rafa should be giving him an ultimatum for Bolton - run the attacking side of the game, and shrug off any incomplete attacking balls. Just get involved lad!

what about lack of speed, weak against strong midfielders,
Alonso was slow but still attracted fouls and retained possesion, while Lucas has good touch and decent passing, his sideway passes and passing to players with people around put other players in trouble, gives away silly fouls, I know he tries hard, he did after he let the own goal in, but just wasnt enough, coz other players also played badly.
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Offline carling

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1524 on: August 25, 2009, 12:27:45 pm »
If Kuyt has to play, I'd rather he was in the centre. He is better popping up on the end of crosses than trying to provide them. Plus, I'd like to see Bennayoun and Johnson together, see what they can do.

That's what is best about the Kuyt/Johnson partnership though.  Johnson providing the width with Kuyt constantly creating space for him/getting into the box.  Easily sustainable except for against the very best teams!

Kuyt got on the end of enough last season with Arby down the right, I expect even more with a presence like Johnson there.

Offline Neil D

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1525 on: August 25, 2009, 12:27:52 pm »
My thinking is that away from home, he'd have more space and there would be less pressure on each pass. If he can't do it there, he's not going to be any better against a packed defence at home with an impatient crowd on his back. He's obviously a confidence player.

I'd be more inclined to shift Gerrard back to the midfield in the next home game.

Yeah perhaps we would be better waiting until the Burnley game but I want to see us attack Bolton from the off and play like we're at home.

Yossi off Torres, Kuyt right for me. :)

I'd be happy with that too.

Offline therockbox

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1526 on: August 25, 2009, 12:34:17 pm »
Can the Lucas arse kisses give some examples of when Lucas has performed at a decent level enough to deserve a part in one of the most important roles available in a team?
Man Utd?  Inter?  Or are these those matches that magically seem not to count when discussing Lucas' performances?


Offline maqu006

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1527 on: August 25, 2009, 12:36:53 pm »
Let's all blame Lucas and forget the horrendous performance put in by Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt and Benayoun.

And let's crucify him for his own goal. After all Carra, Sami and Gerrard never commit own goals.

Lucas was average to poor yesterday but that still meant there were 4 or 5 players performing worse than him. Other poor performers included Rafa and the fans.

Offline carling

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1528 on: August 25, 2009, 12:38:59 pm »
what about lack of speed, weak against strong midfielders,
Alonso was slow but still attracted fouls and retained possesion, while Lucas has good touch and decent passing, his sideway passes and passing to players with people around put other players in trouble, gives away silly fouls, I know he tries hard, he did after he let the own goal in, but just wasnt enough, coz other players also played badly.

How many red cards last season did opposition players get given in the end for fouls on Alonso!?

I really need to stop dwelling in the past, another thing is for sure, the amount of space that used to be left by the players constantly closing Alonso down is something else we need to factor in when trying to bring the ball forward effectively.  Teams are nowhere near as worried about Lucas or Masch having the ball deep so just leaves them more time to deny space to the attackers.

It really is going to be no small feat to fill this guys boots, it is going to be hard work but I do think Rafa can pull it off, hopefully with Lucas playing a good part.

Just hope it can happen soon!

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1529 on: August 25, 2009, 12:39:44 pm »
Man Utd?  Inter?  Or are these those matches that magically seem not to count when discussing Lucas' performances?

Of course they dont count, yes he put in very good performances, which 'more favourable' players would have recieved praise for, but its Lucas, theres an excuse to cut down his impressive performances to merely ok ones each and every time.

Offline Tom_B

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1530 on: August 25, 2009, 12:42:55 pm »
Let's all blame Lucas and forget the horrendous performance put in by Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt and Benayoun.

How is it comparable? Just because 4 players were worse than him doesn't mean he didn't have a poor game. Not to mention that the 4 players in question were arguably amongst our best players in the last 2 seasons. And I don't think one single person has pointed the finger solely at Lucas. The blame can be shared around, and it is being.

And let's crucify him for his own goal. After all Carra, Sami and Gerrard never commit own goals.

No one has done that, but it isn't like when Carra scored own goals in the past no one said anything, he got stick for them.

Lucas was average to poor yesterday but that still meant there were 4 or 5 players performing worse than him. Other poor performers included Rafa and the fans.

But what difference does that make? People aren't in here saying they don't think he is good enough just based on last night. The only reason they will be saying it after last night is because he was "average to poor". You won't see a thread questioning the 4 players you mentioned (well there have been threads on Kuyt and Yossi actually in the past) because they have proven themselves consistantly.

The problem with Lucas is many people are one extreme or another. He is either shite, or he is a scapegoat. This means that when he is simply average, you get all kinds of comments about him being awful, or him being slated unfairly.
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Offline SMD

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1531 on: August 25, 2009, 12:43:57 pm »
People are absolutely obsessed with Lucas.

Torres and Gerrard were awful last night. Lucas wasn't.
Most of the team were awful against Spurs. Lucas had a decent game by anyone's standards, not just his own.
Most of the squad have been awful in pre-season. Lucas has been one of the best performers.

Seriously, if Lucas hadn't have come on for Gerrard in the Derby I don't think he'd get half as much stick as he does.

He's not a bad player. He's not shite. He's better than Biscan, whom a lot of people love as a cult figure and many feel would've been better under different circumstances.

Alonso, Kaka, bloody no one would've helped us out last night because of our absolute static play. It spoke volumes that when Voronin came on, he was one of the few players showing for the ball and moving into space.

Sometimes I wonder who people actually support.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1532 on: August 25, 2009, 12:46:03 pm »
People are absolutely obsessed with Lucas.

Both ways though. Seems that a lot of the people feel the need to go a little over the top when he does something even half decent. And on the flip side, when he does something slightly wrong, there will be people making out he is the worst player in the world.
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1533 on: August 25, 2009, 12:47:26 pm »
Lucas was excellent against Stoke but last night he wasn't so good. but he wasn't  not as bad as Gerrard and Torres. If the unlucky own goal hadn't happened this thread would not be at the top of the forum.
Fernando has got to get his head up and start trying as hard as he did in the game against Madrid at Anfield. He was like the old Rushie that night chasing back at every opportunity but recently his head seems to drop when things aren't going to plan.
Time for the players to get their heads down and battle. A couple of wins will put us back on track starting with Bolton.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1534 on: August 25, 2009, 12:49:15 pm »
his sideway passes and passing to players with people around put other players in trouble,
So what should he do when they have players behind the ball? Either he passes it forward where all our players have men around them, or he passes it sideways or backwards where the men don't. So what should he do as your current bad things don't allow either of those two options. I suppose he could go on a long run, or try a 50 meter pass, and then get slated if they don't come off.
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Offline deadlybuzz

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1535 on: August 25, 2009, 12:50:27 pm »
No Lucas was not to blame for the defeat against Spurs or last night but just because he is not to blame doesn't mean he is anywhere near good enough to play in our starting 11 either.

I do not see what Rafa see's in him, he has shipped out players who have performed better than him.

Our system worked great with Xabi & masch that system has been broken up now with Xabi's departure , its time for Rafa to get back to the drawing board and change his tactics with this two holding midfielders malarky. Because with Skyrtel, Carra, Masch & Lucas none of them offer any service to Torres or Gerrard.

This is where I'm perplexed by our current situation. We pretty much knew that Alonso wasn't going to be part of Rafa's plans since last summer and well, now he's gone I was expecting to see the masterplan of Lucas (or Masch) making those forward runs with the ball to attack from the middle. Aquilani when he comes in will be making these runs, so why not instruct Lucas to do so? Lucas looks 10 times better when he plays further forward linking up with Kuyt Gerrard and Torres, why not let him?
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1536 on: August 25, 2009, 12:50:29 pm »
It spoke volumes that when Voronin came on, he was one of the few players showing for the ball and moving into space.

Sometimes I wonder who people actually support.

But the quality he showed was poor. That just goes to show what you can't do as a manager when the money you are promised is withdrawn from your budget. We just don't have quality in depth and that is plain to see. Those people who can't see this about our owners have their heads in the sand and it won't get any better until they've fucked off.

Offline deadlybuzz

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1537 on: August 25, 2009, 12:51:03 pm »
Can the Lucas arse kisses give some examples of when Lucas has performed at a decent level enough to deserve a part in one of the most important roles available in a team?



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Offline carling

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1538 on: August 25, 2009, 12:52:51 pm »
People are absolutely obsessed with Lucas.

Torres and Gerrard were awful last night. Lucas wasn't.
Most of the team were awful against Spurs. Lucas had a decent game by anyone's standards, not just his own.
Most of the squad have been awful in pre-season. Lucas has been one of the best performers.

Seriously, if Lucas hadn't have come on for Gerrard in the Derby I don't think he'd get half as much stick as he does.

He's not a bad player. He's not shite. He's better than Biscan, whom a lot of people love as a cult figure and many feel would've been better under different circumstances.

Alonso, Kaka, bloody no one would've helped us out last night because of our absolute static play. It spoke volumes that when Voronin came on, he was one of the few players showing for the ball and moving into space.

Sometimes I wonder who people actually support.

The problem is people know over a season Gerrard and Torres are good enough to make massive contributions to win us the league.  Lucas hasn't proved that just yet, although it is still definitely unfair the amount of flak he is getting.

People are just so worried we are going to go backwards from last year after Alonso's loss (again not Lucas's fault).  While we do just need to be patient it is sometimes easier said than done.  :(

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1539 on: August 25, 2009, 12:57:12 pm »
Looking at things like his passing stats, i remain impressed. I can admit he made some mistakes last night but i still feel he was nowhere near as bad as some are making out

Offline SMD

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1540 on: August 25, 2009, 12:57:25 pm »
Both ways though. Seems that a lot of the people feel the need to go a little over the top when he does something even half decent. And on the flip side, when he does something slightly wrong, there will be people making out he is the worst player in the world.

As soon as the own goal went in, I knew he was going to get taken apart. I support all our players and I can't believe that we have fans moaning about not developing players then moaning when Lucas - or even Ayala! - get chances.

Development doesn't come in 6 games or 6 months. Lucas is still developing; look at Gerrard, he was a machine last season once he got going and is a better player than the gung ho midfielder in 03/04 who dragged us to fourth.

Yet I'll be more critical of Gerrard, Torres and Carragher because they've been well below par and we know what they can do consistently.

Lucas has shown glimpses of his quality but he still looks weighed down and our fans on his back won't help.

He's a good CM and I think he can be a great one. But if things don't improve in terms of support, I don't think it'll be with us.

But the quality he showed was poor. That just goes to show what you can't do as a manager when the money you are promised is withdrawn from your budget. We just don't have quality in depth and that is plain to see. Those people who can't see this about our owners have their heads in the sand and it won't get any better until they've fucked off.

He might've showed poor quality but he displayed more intelligence and belief than a lot of players out there last night.

The owner issue is something completely different to what we're discussing in this thread and frankly would have me ranting for hours.
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Offline maqu006

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1541 on: August 25, 2009, 12:59:06 pm »
Can the Lucas arse kisses give some examples of when Lucas has performed at a decent level enough to deserve a part in one of the most important roles available in a team?



Newcastle, united, Inter and Stoke - brilliant
He also had quite a few above average performances
He also had quite a few poor games - yesterday's

In conclusion, he's got potential but (like all our players at the moment) lacks consistency.

Will be a fine player in a years' time. In the meantime, the senior players who have proven they are so good need to step up big time.

Offline john_lfc

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1542 on: August 25, 2009, 01:00:38 pm »
I've seen him have 4 good games in a Liverpool shirt

That is shocking..

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1543 on: August 25, 2009, 01:06:39 pm »
Just needs to be a bit more adventurous/confident imo.

THREE misplaced passes in his time on the field last night, of THIRTY FIVE. One of those unsuccessful passes was a corner.

TWO fouls conceded and one ends up in the back of the net.

ZERO shots.

Imo if he can be more aggresive and commanding, his teammates will have more confidence in him e.g. stevie will refrain from coming deep to get the ball and will stay up alongside Torres. He gets into some great positions but he just needs to be more aggresive, i do think he will have had a warning from rafa not to rush forward too much due to villas ability on the counter so that may have had some impact upon his overall movement throughout the game. He will come good im confident of that, i think he needs to be more commanding though and show what he can do, he weights his passes excellently and we've seen him spray those long passes accurately before so we know he has it in his locker. A bit more aggresion and confidence to his game and he will improve alot.

Offline maqu006

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1544 on: August 25, 2009, 01:08:14 pm »
I've seen him have 4 good games in a Liverpool shirt

That is shocking..

Can YOU make a list of the absolutely shocking games he has had for us?

If that list includes yesterday's game, then don't bother please/

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1545 on: August 25, 2009, 01:16:16 pm »

THREE misplaced passes in his time on the field last night, of THIRTY FIVE.
the point is that 95% of those passes are sideways or to the back. He should be creating chances and sending good useful balls for the attackers.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1546 on: August 25, 2009, 01:17:31 pm »
the point is that 95% of those passes are sideways or to the back. He should be creating chances and sending good useful balls for the attackers.

How is he going to pass forwards if none of our attacking players will move into space for him to pass to?
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1547 on: August 25, 2009, 01:19:20 pm »
the point is that 95% of those passes are sideways or to the back. He should be creating chances and sending good useful balls for the attackers.

Go back and read my post again, then again, then one more time just for good measure. The first sentence was there for a reason lol.

'Just needs to be a bit more adventurous/confident imo.'

This includes with his passes

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1548 on: August 25, 2009, 01:21:10 pm »
How is he going to pass forwards if none of our attacking players will move into space for him to pass to?
I wouldn't say that,Johnson,Kuyt,Torres and even Insua were moving into space enough times for at least 4-5 of those passes and he never tried to pass it to them.Instead he always picks the safest pass available and that's either sideways or to the back.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1549 on: August 25, 2009, 01:26:43 pm »
~ To the guy 'who can spot a good midfielder'

It's XABI Alonso. XABI. With a fucking B, for fucks sake.

Personally, it's getting to a stage now where I want Lucas to leave. I want him to leave because there are too many here willing to round on him after any less than stellar performance. More to the point, too many who make him the reason for any team performance that isn't up to standard. Every single game we've done poorly with Lucas in the side, it's been all his fault, every fucking time. His page gets jumped to the top - even when other players have played worse and had far more glaring mistakes, EG Carra Vs Spurs or Gerrard in this one.

I think what I'm really starting to fucking hate is the inconsistency. Sorry to bring up Alonso to compare, and I realise that Alonso was class, but it does wind me up that people will ask things of Lucas that Alonso never provided, as part of their 'proof' that Alonso was god and Lucas is a c*nt:

1) Lucas hardly ever shoots! - I forgot what a goalscoring Machine Alonso was - you could count on Xabi for at least one, maybe two goals in a season. FFS.
2) Lucas never plays through balls! - Again - did you watch us with Xabi in the team? Xabi's played about one, maybe two successful through passes in about the last 3 seasons with us.
3) Lucas stats show that he scores more, assists more, and tries more through balls per minute on the pitch than Xabi does. Again, Xabi was the better player, but let's not pretend he was something he wasn't in order to bash Lucas further, which is what many of you are doing. Witness:
4) All those backwards, sideways passes - ah yes. Keeping possession you mean - in other words the main thing Xabi did/does, and does brilliantly - the thing that got him sold to Madrid.

OK.

Then stuff that Lucas never gets credit for:

1) Where was he yesterday? He hid! Why doesn't he get forward enough?

Our best spell last night was the first 20 minutes or so of the second half. Lucas passed a few times into Kuyt/Benny/Gerrard's feet - difference - they actually made it stick, hence we played alright and looked decent.

2) Lucas was making forward runs CONSTANTLY. Once again he was ignored by his team-mates.

NEXT:

Why is it always Lucas responsibility to make things happen? Why is he always the one blamed for not 'stepping up' whenever we have an iffy display? Indeed, how is he even supposed to do that WHEN HIS TEAM MATES WON'T GIVE HIM THE FUCKING BALL?

His attacking runs never get picked up on. No-one tries to play give and goes with him, except perhaps Kuyt and now Johnson. Mascherano seems to constantly refuse to advance play by just giving Lucas little 10 yard balls to feet when Lucas is in space. Gerrard is happy to accept the ball from Lucas, and Lucas is again one of very few who is alive to Gerrard's own gove/goes and driving runs (has found him with those many times) but it doesn't go both ways - Gerrard gives Lucas fuck all support on the pitch, does fuck all to gee him up and boost his confidence (compare that to how the mancs bed in their youths - the encouragement players like Anderson get in their early games) - same goes for Carra, who does fuck all as a 'vice' - captain to boost the lad's confident, and also refuses to pass to him.

It's no-wonder Lucas confidence is so fragile - he's got the manager's trust but it rings hollow because, no matter how good his last game was, come the next he gets on to the pitch and once again that trust is missing from the stands and his fellow players.

So, again, I almost want him to leave. Perversely, I want him to go to Arsenal, because he is what Wenger seems to want from Denilson, and he would absolutely shine in their team, and would be given the ball because, for all their problems, they don't play favourites in the game of possession - you get the ball for being in the best position, not because Gerrard/Torres/Carra rate you more highly than your team-mates, as happens far too much here.

It was Gerrard was shite yesterday. We had a good spell when he dropped into CM, not because he did anything good there - he was shite - less ambitious than Lucas, no perceptive runs forward whatsoever PLUS he gave the ball away cheaply - something Lucas has never and will never do - but because Voronin came on instead of him at no10, worked and drifted, plus used his strength, which meant the ball was actually sticking when we played it into the final 3rd. THAT'S how bad Gerrard was last  night - Voronin in his place was a big improvement in our attacking play.

Then Gerrard rounded it off by giving away a fucking criminal penalty - fucking criminal. it was 100% GAME ON! Before Gerrard did that. Only Gerrard could play as badly as he did in CM last night (even if it was only briefly) and have so many people baying for him to be put there as a 'solution'. Gerrard isn't the fucking solution. He's a less good Alonso in that role. An inferior replacement to Alonso is exactly what we DON'T want, IMO. At least with Lucas howlers they came from him trying to do the right thing, Gerrard had no such excuse. That was a shocking challenge anywhere on the pitch and in the penalty area? With a covering defender? When even without that it would have been a tight finish from an angle off the left foot of...REO-FUCKING-COKER then it was an absolute abomination.

Unlike Lucas, Gerrard also lost his head COMPLETELY after that challenge - refused to take any of his numerous chances to drive/pass/shoot into the box, instead laying the ball off slowly and safely to the wider players - with mere minutes left - and failing to even do that properly, as he gave the ball away with what felt like every 3rd pass.
 
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Offline SadRed

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1550 on: August 25, 2009, 01:33:32 pm »
Fuck off whoppers!

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1551 on: August 25, 2009, 01:35:34 pm »
Looking at things like his passing stats, i remain impressed. I can admit he made some mistakes last night but i still feel he was nowhere near as bad as some are making out
Just to point out as well that the OG came from Lucas doing his job properly:

The foul was a bit shit - and he needs to learn to be less clumsy because that particular foul, IE bundling a player over from behind - is one he makes faaar too often. Still, he had to try and challenge there, he was in the right place, doing his job. Then, the goal. More evidence for the 'zonal marking is shite' brigade, even though it was actually a great example of why zonal marking DOES work. There was Lucas, in the right place, defending his zone perfectly - but failing to make the right contact on the ball.

Worst possible intervention for him that - so much so I'm actually now more hoping than really believing he'll really come good for us. Not really to do with him, but there's trust issues from fans and players - and they will not allow him to shine now, I'm almost certain of it, unless he really can properly grab a game by the balls and score a great goal or something in a good win against a tough opposition - but I don't think that's him. He needs the trust before the performances I think and it just isn't happening here.

Still, fact remains that, like with the Wigan penno last year, he was doing his job, and at 2-1 it was seriously GAME ON. Gerrard's intervention killed us - of course our heads dropped after that FFS. Yes we're resilient, but when the captain and talisman of the side basically gives them the killer goal just after we've equalised your not going to get that belief back unless he rolls his sleeves up and has a magnificent last 20 or so - where in fact Gerrard clearly lost it totally after that foul and played even worse after that than he had been doing - as I say, much less ambition in his passing than Lucas, less pace and tempo to it too, no shots, runs or dribbles - just nothing.
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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1552 on: August 25, 2009, 01:36:14 pm »
^
Some good insights there and the earlier post.

Offline Dick Emery

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1553 on: August 25, 2009, 01:36:41 pm »
Ridiculous arguments about individual games. Are people now suggesting that Lucas is better than Gerrard because Gerrard was rubbish last night and Lucas wasn't? Stop making moronic statements about specific games.

The question is wider about the level of contribution we should expect versus the level of contribution that Lucas offers.

Is Lucas one the best midfielders in world football? Should Liverpool Football Club expect to have a central midfield that includes the very cream of footballing ability? I think the answers are no and yes, respectively.

Offline Tom_B

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1554 on: August 25, 2009, 01:47:06 pm »
Development doesn't come in 6 games or 6 months. Lucas is still developing; look at Gerrard, he was a machine last season once he got going and is a better player than the gung ho midfielder in 03/04 who dragged us to fourth.

Fair play, but he has played 75 first team games for us.

Babel doesn't get afforded the development argument any where near as easily as Lucas does.

I don't think the support argument really weighs up either. In the ground, he gets support, and there is as many people who want to protect him as there is who want to slate him.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1555 on: August 25, 2009, 01:51:00 pm »
Yossi off Torres, Kuyt right for me. :)

Agree.

Offline ElSheak

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1556 on: August 25, 2009, 02:02:55 pm »
Why is it always Lucas responsibility to make things happen? Why is he always the one blamed for not 'stepping up' whenever we have an iffy display? Indeed, how is he even supposed to do that WHEN HIS TEAM MATES WON'T GIVE HIM THE FUCKING BALL?

His attacking runs never get picked up on. No-one tries to play give and goes with him, except perhaps Kuyt and now Johnson. Mascherano seems to constantly refuse to advance play by just giving Lucas little 10 yard balls to feet when Lucas is in space. Gerrard is happy to accept the ball from Lucas, and Lucas is again one of very few who is alive to Gerrard's own gove/goes and driving runs (has found him with those many times) but it doesn't go both ways - Gerrard gives Lucas fuck all support on the pitch, does fuck all to gee him up and boost his confidence (compare that to how the mancs bed in their youths - the encouragement players like Anderson get in their early games) - same goes for Carra, who does fuck all as a 'vice' - captain to boost the lad's confident, and also refuses to pass to him.

It's no-wonder Lucas confidence is so fragile - he's got the manager's trust but it rings hollow because, no matter how good his last game was, come the next he gets on to the pitch and once again that trust is missing from the stands and his fellow players.

You are spot-fucking-on, all day, every day with that mate.

I counted at least 5 runs he made, ghosted through the middle of the pitch only to never be spotted - and even if if was, he was never gonna get the ball. Even Insua, at several throw-ins refused to choose him, instead going for the longer, riskier throw.

It's a vicious circle on the pitch and I said it last night in the quagmire of the Post Match Thread (PMT - and just as fucking laborious to witness as the other PMT). The other team members faith in him is evidently lacking, which put's him in doubt, when he's on the field. If their lack of confidence is obvious to us in the stands and behind the box, it must be painful for him down there.

How can you operate at you best when you being over looked because no one will give you the chance. This breeds nerves, which effects the performance, which effects the outlook of the other members of the team, which results in not passing to him, and on goes the vicious circle.

Yes he made mistakes last night and just like Friedel had a great day, Lucas had a bad one - every player can, just his mistakes are highlighted because he hasn't metamorphosized into Alonso over night in the eyes of many. And these challenges that are conceding freekicks (like the one which led to his own goal), how are these occurring?

Well it's because the lad is busting a nut for the cause, trying to protect the back line, because further up field we gave away possession constantly, putting him and Masch under pressure. It was a shit freekick, edged with all the luck we were devoid of all evening and when it's not your day, it's not your day. The lad was hell bent on defending the freekick, he gave away, trying to make amends, only to suffer the worst bit of luck.

Down goes the confidence. Not one. Not one fucking player went over to say head up lad, keep going. Worse is no one even said a fucking word, not even a bollocking. He was just left, left to it. What type of support is that? Where is the team ethic there?

Your right about the lot.
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Online RyanBabel19

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1557 on: August 25, 2009, 02:07:38 pm »
You are spot-fucking-on, all day, every day with that mate.

I counted at least 5 runs he made, ghosted through the middle of the pitch only to never be spotted - and even if if was, he was never gonna get the ball. Even Insua, at several throw-ins refused to choose him, instead going for the longer, riskier throw.

It's a vicious circle on the pitch and I said it last night in the quagmire of the Post Match Thread (PMT - and just as fucking laborious to witness as the other PMT). The other team members faith in him is evidently lacking, which put's him in doubt, when he's on the field. If their lack of confidence is obvious to us in the stands and behind the box, it must be painful for him down there.

How can you operate at you best when you being over looked because no one will give you the chance. This breeds nerves, which effects the performance, which effects the outlook of the other members of the team, which results in not passing to him, and on goes the vicious circle.

Yes he made mistakes last night and just like Friedel had a great day, Lucas had a bad one - every player can, just his mistakes are highlighted because he hasn't metamorphosized into Alonso over night in the eyes of many. And these challenges that are conceding freekicks (like the one which led to his own goal), how are these occurring?

Well it's because the lad is busting a nut for the cause, trying to protect the back line, because further up field we gave away possession constantly, putting him and Masch under pressure. It was a shit freekick, edged with all the luck we were devoid of all evening and when it's not your day, it's not your day. The lad was hell bent on defending the freekick, he gave away, trying to make amends, only to suffer the worst bit of luck.

Down goes the confidence. Not one. Not one fucking player went over to say head up lad, keep going. Worse is no one even said a fucking word, not even a bollocking. He was just left, left to it. What type of support is that? Where is the team ethic there?

Your right about the lot.

Couldnt agree more. People overlook the fact that he gave away the freekick in the first place doing what had to be done, getting back and trying to win the ball back.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1558 on: August 25, 2009, 02:09:49 pm »
I don't think Lucas is in the right team to get the best out of his talents.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1559 on: August 25, 2009, 02:15:34 pm »
Genuinely didn't think he was too bad last night. His own goal was unfortunate, that happens (remember Gerrard doing something similar in the League Cup Final) and after that he looked a little nervy for a few minutes but got back on track, buzzing about everywhere. I also remember a fantastic bit of skill when a Villa player closed him down quickly and he did one of those Zidanesque turns to get past him, then stormed down the pitch only to be met with a chronic lack of movement from some our favourites, the move breaks down and Lucas' good work is forgotten. Once Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt improve their form I think we'll notice the good work Lucas does a lot more.
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