Author Topic: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership  (Read 346610 times)

Offline tea_tree

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1720 on: March 3, 2012, 11:27:10 pm »
I think we should always allow our legends to start games from now on to be honest.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1721 on: March 3, 2012, 11:36:39 pm »
Do us a favour Gutless is a natural Full Back who has played as a Full back on hundreds of occasions refusing to play at Full back against Boro and leaving Skrtel to face Downing. Gutless is that same natural full back hiding at Centre back and leaving Skrtel a Centre back to face Bale.


I thought we debated this at the time - which is worse refusing to play there because you think you'll be shredded or agreeing to play there and then not turning up - I thought the answer was both aren't acceptable?

As for your continual Carra conspiracy theories you can get medication you know :) What you gonna do if he is sidelined next season I'm worried for you, stay away from the anal probes.

RVP and Carra you could read RVP and every centre half in the league this season - although for the first Carra should get the assist , the second less so.

Say Coates had played today and RVP 'scores when he wants' gets his two goals what do you think happens to the lads confidence and how do you think the less 'discerning' posters would have reacted. I know we'll never know now but I'm afraid to say I have less faith in our support than ever before - Lucas found out the hard way its a tough gig when they make their minds up so early



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Offline penga

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1722 on: March 3, 2012, 11:43:26 pm »
Skrtel is boss. I wasn't convinced of many people's arguments that Agger makes Skrtel tick. In reality, Agger and Skrtel together make the partnership tick. Today we saw how Skrtel absolutely bossed van Persie, ran around and played his heart out, even with Carragher having a mare beside him. 94th minute I suppose was when he was chasing the ball from defense to attack trying to win it back. He's such a prime example of how being functional, spirited, knowing your role in the team, backing your own ability and being completely focused on the pitch are such a plus to any side.
Yes that was a good moment to see just harrassing 4-5 players trying desperately to win the ball despite it being passed sideways and backwards into their own half by Arsenal.

Also launched into an interception and continued his run for a bit before passing an creating an attack late in the game.

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1723 on: March 3, 2012, 11:53:16 pm »
So then. Now that fourth is out of reach, how will you guys feel if Carragher retains his place ahead of Coates?

i dont think 4th is out of reach

it would make sense to me if Coates played but thats based on no knowledge of how the lad is shaping up in training - it would have made sense to me if Coates played today provided the people who see him in training and speak to him on a daily basis picked him -

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Online SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1724 on: March 4, 2012, 12:04:41 am »
So then. Now that fourth is out of reach, how will you guys feel if Carragher retains his place ahead of Coates?

Agree fourth is out of reach. Will be disappointed if Coates doesn't get at least a couple of games. Carra has been past it for ages. I can see why he was played, but frankly in hindsight it looks like a poor decision. Course if we won by burying some of our easy chances then we wouldn't be talking about it.
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Offline Hazell

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1725 on: March 4, 2012, 09:00:18 am »
clearly you believe I'm defending Carra. The only person I'm aware of defending because he's the only one who appears to need it is Kenny. He picks the team and I believe he picks that team because of what he sees on the training ground and because it best serves Liverpool not because Carragher tells him to.

Umm, I didn't say "Carragher tells him to pick the team" or even suggest it so don't know why you bring that up. Of course you're making a case for Carragher, which is what your posts have been about and there's nothing wrong with that but I'm just countering that view.

gutless or not was actually irelevant to the point being made -

It may or may not be relevant but it's something you actually said and it's something I disagree with, hence why I responded to it.


the point I thought I was making was that Skrtels form has not always been as good as it is now - I did not think that was contentious -  the low point for me was the Spurs game for the reasons discussed enough already not his ability

I didn't say his form was always this good either. I don't think he was as bad as made out and you single out the Tottenham game - when he played at RB, not his natural position - but disregard virtually everyone else playing just as bad...

thats why I quoted his performance because it was about him not Carragher  - thats not a defence of Carragher,  why you believe it is I dont understand

...including Carragher who this has been about (along with Skrtel and Coates), you mentioned him when you started posting in here and was talking about Coates, Paletta and what team we'd play against Arsenal.

if Skrtels form had always been as good as it is now then he would have played more its that simple.   

I don't think it is, it hasn't been for a while at our club - not just regarding Skrtel and the defence but everywhere and not just Kenny but other managers too.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1726 on: March 4, 2012, 10:34:46 am »
I thought we debated this at the time - which is worse refusing to play there because you think you'll be shredded or agreeing to play there and then not turning up - I thought the answer was both aren't acceptable?
The answer is that someone has to play at Right Back and shouldn't that be the vastly experienced player who has played at full back hundreds of times.

As for your continual Carra conspiracy theories you can get medication you know :) What you gonna do if he is sidelined next season I'm worried for you, stay away from the anal probes.
When jamie was rightly out of the side you didn't hear a peep from me.

RVP and Carra you could read RVP and every centre half in the league this season - although for the first Carra should get the assist , the second less so.

Say Coates had played today and RVP 'scores when he wants' gets his two goals what do you think happens to the lads confidence and how do you think the less 'discerning' posters would have reacted. I know we'll never know now but I'm afraid to say I have less faith in our support than ever before - Lucas found out the hard way its a tough gig when they make their minds up so early

1. Van Persie is left footed and naturally pulls onto the right sided Centre back which would of been Skrtel not Coates.

2. Don't you think it is a tad hypocritical bringing up conspiracy theories and then suggesting the reaction of people on RAWK might of affected Kenny's decision to not play Coates.


Not selecting a young centre back and bringing down the curtain on the career of a massive figure in the dressing room are decisions of different magnitude for any manager and undoubtedly the latter brings with it more repercussions and more press interest than the former. We both know the decision is a million miles away from a manager simply picking his first eleven.
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Offline -Q-

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1727 on: March 4, 2012, 11:47:23 am »
Only got to see the game on MoTD, but Carra was to blame for the first goal and at fault for the second.  He is only damaging his reputation now.

If Coates made those mistakes, at least he would be learning from them and becoming a better.
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1728 on: March 4, 2012, 11:59:33 am »
Only got to see the game on MoTD, but Carra was to blame for the first goal and at fault for the second.  He is only damaging his reputation now.

If Coates made those mistakes, at least he would be learning from them and becoming a better.

I thought Enrique was poor for the first. He was very slow to get out to Sagna. Everything that happens from then on was as a result of Sagna having so much time to pick his spot and Enrique making it so easy for him.

But that said, Carra's 'defending' against RVP was atrocious. More concerned with getting a hold of him then looking at/attacking the ball and slow to even do what little he did.

Was lots of talk in here about how Carra should be selected over Coates for his experience and ability to read the game, well he didnt have the experience to know that there was only one threat in that box and it was his job to mark him. By the time he had read the situation and had decided to grapple and handle Van Perise it was too late. RVP had gotten in front of him made him look like a mug.

What's most annoying is I wasn't even surprised.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1729 on: March 4, 2012, 12:58:27 pm »
I thought Enrique was poor for the first. He was very slow to get out to Sagna. Everything that happens from then on was as a result of Sagna having so much time to pick his spot and Enrique making it so easy for him.

But that said, Carra's 'defending' against RVP was atrocious. More concerned with getting a hold of him then looking at/attacking the ball and slow to even do what little he did.

Was lots of talk in here about how Carra should be selected over Coates for his experience and ability to read the game, well he didnt have the experience to know that there was only one threat in that box and it was his job to mark him. By the time he had read the situation and had decided to grapple and handle Van Perise it was too late. RVP had gotten in front of him made him look like a mug.

What's most annoying is I wasn't even surprised.

I think it's a bit harsh blaming Enrique his role yesterday was to do a job on Walcot and he did it brilliantly. If Sagna is breaking forward then it is up to Downing to track back and stop Sagna getting crosses in.

As for Carra and Van Persie it was a carbon copy of Stoke away when Carra was caught ball watching allowed Walters to get goal side only that time he did manage to drag the forward to the deck. It's not just Carra's physical qualities that are fading it's his concentration levels. He made a career out of always being in the right place and by getting tight and totally marking Strikers out of games. that isn't happening now Van Persie didn't do anything special for his two goals Carra just switched off allowed him to drift off him. At his peak Carra was like a rash all over his marker and they never got half a yard never mind five or six yards.
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Offline JonCaton

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1730 on: March 4, 2012, 01:05:17 pm »
Has anyone actually seen any official news on Agger's fitness, sorry if I've missed it, cheers.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1731 on: March 4, 2012, 01:06:18 pm »
We missed agger yesterday, the difference between him and carra is huge. Skertel and agger look solid yet carra comes into the side and seems to want the other three defenders to play how he sees fit. We drop off to accommodate his lack of pace yet agger and skertel are both comfortable at bringing the ball out. Two negatives there plus all his moaning. The look on carra's face yesterday was a picture as he usually looks to shout and scream in someone's ear when they are at fault. I wish someone would bollock him.
« Last Edit: March 4, 2012, 01:10:53 pm by scouse29 »
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1732 on: March 4, 2012, 01:08:00 pm »
Was absolutely gutted at Arsenal's first yesterday. Sure Jose could have been tighter on Sagna but it was playground level defending from Carra, very sad to see. Can't help but think that Coates would have done better...

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1733 on: March 4, 2012, 01:56:39 pm »
I think it's a bit harsh blaming Enrique his role yesterday was to do a job on Walcot and he did it brilliantly. If Sagna is breaking forward then it is up to Downing to track back and stop Sagna getting crosses in.

As for Carra and Van Persie it was a carbon copy of Stoke away when Carra was caught ball watching allowed Walters to get goal side only that time he did manage to drag the forward to the deck. It's not just Carra's physical qualities that are fading it's his concentration levels. He made a career out of always being in the right place and by getting tight and totally marking Strikers out of games. that isn't happening now Van Persie didn't do anything special for his two goals Carra just switched off allowed him to drift off him. At his peak Carra was like a rash all over his marker and they never got half a yard never mind five or six yards.
Yep, there's no way you can blame Enrique (left back) for not getting out to Sagna (a right back).

It was just rank bad positional play from Carragher. I thought at the time we were a bit deep but having seen it again we werent as deep as I thought when it was delivered. Carra just did not get goal side at any stage.

We should have seen the last of Jamie now.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1734 on: March 4, 2012, 02:20:59 pm »
Yep, there's no way you can blame Enrique (left back) for not getting out to Sagna (a right back).

It was just rank bad positional play from Carragher. I thought at the time we were a bit deep but having seen it again we werent as deep as I thought when it was delivered. Carra just did not get goal side at any stage.

We should have seen the last of Jamie now.

We are living in strange times after Carra made that mistake against Stoke we needed to sacrifice a centre back when we were chasing the game and Skrtel whose four goals this season are one short of Carragher five goals in 727 games for Liverpool and England was taken off.

We had set piece after set piece in the last quarter of the game against Stoke and aerial threat Skrtel was down the tunnel whilst Carra didn't even bother going up for set pieces. Leaving out Coates may be seen as cautious leaving out Jamie would be effectively ending his career as a first team player. Whilst on the bench he has been an injury or a suspension away from regaining his place, when Agger returns if Coates is third choice centre back then what is the point of Carra even being on the bench when Coates would be your go to Centre back and Kelly your go to full back.
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Offline lorenzo23

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1735 on: March 4, 2012, 02:22:37 pm »
Was absolutely gutted at Arsenal's first yesterday. Sure Jose could have been tighter on Sagna but it was playground level defending from Carra, very sad to see. Can't help but think that Coates would have done better...
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1736 on: March 4, 2012, 02:26:50 pm »
The answer is that someone has to play at Right Back and shouldn't that be the vastly experienced player who has played at full back hundreds of times.

what the vastly experienced player who is now according to you different than the player he was - slower,  less able to turn, less able to get up and down, who hasn't played the position for some time , all of which will be exposed more at fullback and whose said he doesn't think he can play there - which agument are you actually making?

If Carra is unable to play CB then he is even less able to play fullback - as for him being a natural fullback - in what universe? - he was an average right back, a better left back and a part time CB probably on the fringe of leaving until Rafa arrived and turned him into an excellent centre back maximising his good qualities covering for his poor ones (especially when he cut out climbing all over the centre forward twice a game).

2. Don't you think it is a tad hypocritical bringing up conspiracy theories and then suggesting the reaction of people on RAWK might of affected Kenny's decision to not play Coates.


2. I would if thats what I was doing thankfully I dont think I said people on Rawk will be effecting Kenny's decision - I said I was defending Kenny from the nonsense people spout on Rawk,  he's his own man, right or wrong.

Bringing down the curtain on a career is pretty dramatic stuff and Kenny may struggle with it, he may let sentiment get in the way. Part of me would regret that but I'd also understand it - the blokes human and turning that off can't be easy. You either trust him or you dont I guess.

Umm, I didn't say "Carragher tells him to pick the team" or even suggest it


So why do you think despite not deserving to be Carra has been picked by so many managers?

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Offline lorenzo23

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1737 on: March 4, 2012, 02:27:27 pm »
We are living in strange times after Carra made that mistake against Stoke we needed to sacrifice a centre back when we were chasing the game and Skrtel whose four goals this season are one short of Carragher five goals in 727 games for Liverpool and England was taken off.

We had set piece after set piece in the last quarter of the game against Stoke and aerial threat Skrtel was down the tunnel whilst Carra didn't even bother going up for set pieces. Leaving out Coates may be seen as cautious leaving out Jamie would be effectively ending his career as a first team player. Whilst on the bench he has been an injury or a suspension away from regaining his place, when Agger returns if Coates is third choice centre back then what is the point of Carra even being on the bench when Coates would be your go to Centre back and Kelly your go to full back.

There have been stranger decision made like why pay 7m for Coates in first place unless we was going to give him run of games in both cups and lower league teams in league games at home, yet we started the season with 34 year old defender??  in the best league in world with all this so called end to end action?? yet i thought on Italy played old defenders cause of the slow tempo of the league.

Even stranger we brought back JoJo to admire the bench while playing Adam when he is off forum regardless.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1738 on: March 4, 2012, 02:29:10 pm »
Don't think it matters whether Carra or Coates is the better player right now. We are so eager to bench Maxi and Kuyt, players who contribute, because of their age. We dare to play young players for the future in their place and we like to talk about their bright future. If they don't perform, we have no real problems with that because they are for the future.

CB? Here we have a choice to go with the oldest player in the squad, or a young player who has proven himself in a big international tournament. If we apply the same logic as we do in midfield, Coates should almost be a guaranteed first pick. Not saying we should play Coates in every game when Agger is out, but we should play him at least as much as we play Carra.

Exactly. The same logic that keeps internationals Kuyt,Maxi out of the line-up doesn't apply. Even when we have a young Cup-winning international ready to play. 

One of the frustrations I had with Rafa was that we didn't get to see some of the younger players very often. Well, the rest of this season is an opportunity. I hope we see them sometime.

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Offline lorenzo23

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1739 on: March 4, 2012, 02:31:37 pm »
So why do you think despite not deserving to be Carra has been picked by so many managers?
[/quote]

If not mistaken didn't Rafa attempt to put into action displaying Carra from the team? and bring down curtains on his career as Liverpool play? not only by signing better defenders but by only offering one year contract and not first team football which led to Carra doing interview saying if he not first team he would leave Liverpool?
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1740 on: March 4, 2012, 02:44:51 pm »
what the vastly experienced player who is now according to you different than the player he was - slower,  less able to turn, less able to get up and down, who hasn't played the position for some time , all of which will be exposed more at fullback and whose said he doesn't think he can play there - which agument are you actually making?

It was three years ago that Jamie ducked out of facing Downing. The same things that made him a liability at full back his lack of pace and the inability to turn have caught up with him at Centre back. The problem against Spurs was that Skrtel needed covering at right back Bale wasn't beating him on the outside he was taking advantage of Skrtel's lack of positional play at full back and Carra's inability to cover him and was exploiting the chasm between full back and centre back.

If Carra is unable to play CB then he is even less able to play fullback - as for him being a natural fullback - in what universe? - he was an average right back, a better left back and a part time CB probably on the fringe of leaving until Rafa arrived and turned him into an excellent centre back maximising his good qualities covering for his poor ones (especially when he cut out climbing all over the centre forward twice a game).

You only have to look at Carra's physical stature to see he is a full back Centre backs don't get tossed aside like a rag doll by the likes of Van Persie. He made a career as a covering centre back, someone who's full back mobility allowed him to cover for Sami's lack of mobility. The elephant in the room is that the aerially weak covering centre back now needs covering himself

 
Bringing down the curtain on a career is pretty dramatic stuff and Kenny may struggle with it, he may let sentiment get in the way. Part of me would regret that but I'd also understand it - the blokes human and turning that off can't be easy. You either trust him or you dont I guess.

So why do you think despite not deserving to be Carra has been picked by so many managers?

I couldn't agree more about bring the curtain down on someone's career and for me that is why Jamie shouldn't of been doing so many press interviews stating that he isn't prepared to settle for being a squad player. As for asking why so many managers picked Jamie why not look at it the other way and ask why so many England managers refused to pick him as a centre back. He retired from International football because permacrocks like Woodgate and King were seen as more viable options than himself.

Even with a dozen Centre backs unavailable for the last World Cup Jamie still couldn't nail down a place as a centre back and ended the tournament behind Upson in the pecking order, in contrast Coates starred at a tournament and walked away with the award for best young player.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1741 on: March 4, 2012, 04:47:11 pm »

 As for asking why so many managers picked Jamie why not look at it the other way and ask why so many England managers refused to pick him as a centre back. He retired from International football because permacrocks like Woodgate and King were seen as more viable options than himself.

Even with a dozen Centre backs unavailable for the last World Cup Jamie still couldn't nail down a place as a centre back and ended the tournament behind Upson in the pecking order, in contrast Coates starred at a tournament and walked away with the award for best young player.

Now that is the act of a desparate man - using england selection as an argument....

but it does bring up one thing for me with recent events - Parker - ignoring the cockney bias in his selction he reminds me of McMahon not in any way to do with his style of play but for me McMahon was a quality first divison players (top flight as was)  but couldn't really cut it at international level - I think certain players are just like that,  Carra would be an example.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1742 on: March 4, 2012, 04:52:11 pm »
Don't say I didn't warn you.

It's staggering it took a lot of people up until yesterday tor realise Carra is finished.

Bet we'll still see some clinging onto the 'experience card' though. Coates has to play next week.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1743 on: March 4, 2012, 05:14:24 pm »
Don't say I didn't warn you.

It's staggering it took a lot of people up until yesterday tor realise Carra is finished.

Bet we'll still see some clinging onto the 'experience card' though. Coates has to play next week.

Coates will not play next week, don't get your hopes up. Upsetting as it is, I think Carra is Championship standard.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1744 on: March 4, 2012, 05:47:34 pm »
Simple question really. Do I think we're more likely to benefit from Coates possibly making mistakes when Agger's out or from Carragher possibly making mistakes?

I'd rather neither made a mistake, but there's a lot more to be gained from Coates playing than Carra at this point.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1745 on: March 4, 2012, 05:49:14 pm »
Simple question really. Do I think we're more likely to benefit from Coates possibly making mistakes when Agger's out or from Carragher possibly making mistakes?

I'd rather neither made a mistake, but there's a lot more to be gained from Coates playing than Carra at this point.

Problem being, I don't think Kenny wants to take the risk (albeit rather small). Which is quite ashame really, we bought Coates to play, he's a good young player.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1746 on: March 4, 2012, 05:52:12 pm »
Simple question really. Do I think we're more likely to benefit from Coates possibly making mistakes when Agger's out or from Carragher possibly making mistakes?

I'd rather neither made a mistake, but there's a lot more to be gained from Coates playing than Carra at this point.
I guess it depends on how Coates is looking in training but to me it is just a no-brainer. It wasn't a one off game for Carragher, he has been like that all season when he has played.

We are missing a really good opportunity to develop a young player who really cannot do any worse than the 34 yr old in front of him. I'd love to know what the dressing room is like after a game like that when someone like Carra has cocked up. 

It would be a benefit to us if Carra picked up a little niggle now and was unavailable for a week or so. I'd play Kelly there before him too.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1747 on: March 4, 2012, 05:55:18 pm »
Now that is the act of a desparate man - using england selection as an argument....

but it does bring up one thing for me with recent events - Parker - ignoring the cockney bias in his selction he reminds me of McMahon not in any way to do with his style of play but for me McMahon was a quality first divison players (top flight as was)  but couldn't really cut it at international level - I think certain players are just like that,  Carra would be an example.

I think bringing McMahon into a Carra thread is an act of inspiration McMahon was someone who wasn't good enough for a top side until his mid twenties, had a purple period in his mid to late twenties when he was excellent and then was binned off when he was thirty. Pretty much exactly what should of happened to Jamie and pretty much what was planned for Jamie.

The problem now is that instead of Carra going the way of a Hughes, a Thompson, a Yeats, a Lawrenson or a Gillespie he is being accommodated because of what he did half a decade ago. Sentiment has no place in Football if it did the likes of Dalglish, St John and Hunt would still be playing.

Yesterdays none marking of Van Persie must be the straw that breaks the camel's back otherwise we are just condemning ourselves to mediocrity because make no mistake that is exactly how far Jamie has fallen. The Club exists to win trophies not to sentimentally reward players for past performances. 

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1748 on: March 4, 2012, 05:56:19 pm »
I guess it depends on how Coates is looking in training but to me it is just a no-brainer. It wasn't a one off game for Carragher, he has been like that all season when he has played.

We are missing a really good opportunity to develop a young player who really cannot do any worse than the 34 yr old in front of him. I'd love to know what the dressing room is like after a game like that when someone like Carra has cocked up. 

It would be a benefit to us if Carra picked up a little niggle now and was unavailable for a week or so. I'd play Kelly there before him too.

Same mate. With Europa looking more and more likely, I'd be tempted to give Kelly and Coates the group stages in that competition as a partnership. Or at least the Carling Cup games.

Best thing we can do with Carra is get him coaching come summer if he really does take it as seriously as he makes out. A younger age group, or an assistant with the ressies or something, y'know? Keep him on the books as well, but basically semi-retire him without giving the impression that we just want shot. Bit like United have done with Scholes this year, but without ever going through the procession of retiring him out right in the first place.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1749 on: March 4, 2012, 05:56:49 pm »
I guess it depends on how Coates is looking in training but to me it is just a no-brainer. It wasn't a one off game for Carragher, he has been like that all season when he has played.

We are missing a really good opportunity to develop a young player who really cannot do any worse than the 34 yr old in front of him. I'd love to know what the dressing room is like after a game like that when someone like Carra has cocked up. 

It would be a benefit to us if Carra picked up a little niggle now and was unavailable for a week or so. I'd play Kelly there before him too.

We shouldn't be relying on niggles to Carra for Coates to get games. What a sad state of affairs that would be.

Coates should get a game ahead of him because he's better then him. Thats what it boils down to.

Carra just isn't very good. And that's why he shouldn't be playing. Because we have better then him available.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1750 on: March 4, 2012, 06:19:00 pm »

The problem now is that instead of Carra going the way of a Hughes, a Thompson, a Yeats, a Lawrenson or a Gillespie he is being accommodated because of what he did half a decade ago. Sentiment has no place in Football if it did the likes of Dalglish, St John and Hunt would still be playing.


and this is where we continue to disagree

you simply dont know that is the case. you dont know he's being picked on sentimentality, or 2005 and nobody has successfully said why Carra has been picked if he is such a liability. Managers stand or fall on results, the idea  they would deliberately and knowingly pick a weaker player does not really make sense, to do it for a few games maybe but you suggest its 2 or 3 years.

Managers clearly value experience more than some fans do - maybe it has more to do with controlling the players, training and behind the scenes stuff than what we see as fans on the pitch - it would explain why Ferguson kept picking Neville long after he had passed his sell by date.

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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1751 on: March 4, 2012, 06:36:35 pm »
and this is where we continue to disagree

you simply dont know that is the case. you dont know he's being picked on sentimentality, or 2005 and nobody has successfully said why Carra has been picked if he is such a liability. Managers stand or fall on results, the idea  they would deliberately and knowingly pick a weaker player does not really make sense, to do it for a few games maybe but you suggest its 2 or 3 years.

Managers clearly value experience more than some fans do - maybe it has more to do with controlling the players, training and behind the scenes stuff than what we see as fans on the pitch - it would explain why Ferguson kept picking Neville long after he had passed his sell by date.



First off Gary Neville averaged nine League games a season for his last four seasons and the reason he was getting games was because the only natural right back they had on the books was the teenager Rafael. It was a case of Neville, Rafael or the likes of Brown or O'Shea being played out of position.

If it is not a case of a manager picking a worse player then what other reason was there for Carra being first choice centre back ahead of both Skrtel and Agger. At the start of the season we had three full International centre backs and Carra yet Carra was ahead of all of them, maybe it was a postcode lottery.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1752 on: March 4, 2012, 07:42:14 pm »
First off Gary Neville averaged nine League games a season for his last four seasons and the reason he was getting games was because the only natural right back they had on the books was the teenager Rafael. It was a case of Neville, Rafael or the likes of Brown or O'Shea being played out of position.

If it is not a case of a manager picking a worse player then what other reason was there for Carra being first choice centre back ahead of both Skrtel and Agger. At the start of the season we had three full International centre backs and Carra yet Carra was ahead of all of them, maybe it was a postcode lottery.

first england and now stats - the very bottom of the barrell  - those 9 games were nowt to do with him being injured all the time then? Brown was a better right back than centre back, when he made his gaffes they were less damaging - they could have bought in whoever they wanted to play right back - Ferguson preferred Neville and the only reason I can think of was the lads experience and leadership

it's a case of the manager selecting the player that suits the team best in their opinion at the time isn't it?  - well its either that or your Carra conspiracy which has taken in three managers - which is the most likely scenario? why not try and see it from a positive side , trusting the manager and backroom staff?

a team is much more than the sum of its parts and it exists for a lot more than the 90 minutes a week that we see - fans deciding they know who should play and why,  based on zip is just daft -  everybody has an opinion but the idea we are better informed than those doing the selection is crazy ..........

In general Skrtels form since his knee injury has been average, Agger has been injured too much - on paper they make a superb pair, in practice this season they've been great but neither has been reliable enough before - Aggers longest run of consecutive games was something like 7 in three years (thats stats for ye)

when one or t'other came in to play and made mistakes it was either Carra's fault or  the fact they hadn't played regularly - Carra steps in and its down to his age and he's past it - its not a level playing field

I'll use Coates but it could go for any of our three 'internationals' - I'm suprised you didn't say 4 - Wilson has 6 scottish caps doesn't he? Did Coates have a cold this week, did his cat die, how's his mum and dad, how's he getting on with his girlfriend, how much sleep's he getting, hows he settled in a new country, new continent, new language, new culture, whats his diet like, what type of knocks did he pick up in training, what shape was he in when Kuyt showed him up half a dozen times in training, was he coming for crosses well during set piece training - how are the drills coming with Skrtel,  are the two of them making the right decisions, working well as a pair - is he working well with Enrique,  timing the offside correctly , what do the medical people say about his physical condition, how's his sprint work coming, has he responded to the extra work he's doing on his turn, hows his mentality, does he look hungry or is he happy training - everything may be looking great, it may be looking crap - we dont know do we?

From what I understand about the lad he's a diamond and has all the requisite attributes to be excellent for us but none of that takes into account reality does it, teh day to day grind we actually live in.

lets take one specific real world example we've tried to incorporate Henderson, Enrique, Bellamy, Carroll, Suarez and Adam sometimes all at the same time and its showed - throwing in another newbie during that wasn't going to help was it?
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1753 on: March 4, 2012, 07:47:13 pm »
Let's see if Carragher starts next week. Kenny's not soft, he'll have seen what we saw yesterday, I wouldn't put it past him to take action
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1754 on: March 4, 2012, 10:40:49 pm »
first england and now stats - the very bottom of the barrell  - those 9 games were nowt to do with him being injured all the time then? Brown was a better right back than centre back, when he made his gaffes they were less damaging - they could have bought in whoever they wanted to play right back - Ferguson preferred Neville and the only reason I can think of was the lads experience and leadership

In the last few years of Neville's career he was missing League games but was being played in the Cup games when Ferguson was playing the kids. As for Wes Brown look where he has played when he has played for England and look where he plays for Sunderland. he is a Centre back.

it's a case of the manager selecting the player that suits the team best in their opinion at the time isn't it?  - well its either that or your Carra conspiracy which has taken in three managers - which is the most likely scenario? why not try and see it from a positive side , trusting the manager and backroom staff?

You only have to look at Chelsea to see that in modern football it is a hell of a lot more complicated than that.
a team is much more than the sum of its parts and it exists for a lot more than the 90 minutes a week that we see - fans deciding they know who should play and why,  based on zip is just daft -  everybody has an opinion but the idea we are better informed than those doing the selection is crazy ..........
I will counter that old chestnut with one of my own a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link and RVP had no problem finding the weakest link at the weekend.

In general Skrtels form since his knee injury has been average, Agger has been injured too much - on paper they make a superb pair, in practice this season they've been great but neither has been reliable enough before - Aggers longest run of consecutive games was something like 7 in three years (thats stats for ye)
Skrtel has suffered from being shunted onto the wrong side of the pitch between Carra and the likes of Insua and Koncheskey, from not having the confidence in his partner to commit to challenges the way he does with Agger and despite that he still had enough form to keep his place at International level and to play in every single League game last season.


I'll use Coates but it could go for any of our three 'internationals' - I'm suprised you didn't say 4 - Wilson has 6 scottish caps doesn't he? Did Coates have a cold this week, did his cat die, how's his mum and dad, how's he getting on with his girlfriend, how much sleep's he getting, hows he settled in a new country, new continent, new language, new culture, whats his diet like, what type of knocks did he pick up in training, what shape was he in when Kuyt showed him up half a dozen times in training, was he coming for crosses well during set piece training - how are the drills coming with Skrtel,  are the two of them making the right decisions, working well as a pair - is he working well with Enrique,  timing the offside correctly , what do the medical people say about his physical condition, how's his sprint work coming, has he responded to the extra work he's doing on his turn, hows his mentality, does he look hungry or is he happy training - everything may be looking great, it may be looking crap - we dont know do we?

I didn't mention Wilson because it was pretty clear that the Club wanted him to go out on loan to gain experience. None of what you have said explains why a player with his best days long behind was ahead of both Agger and Skrtel in the pecking order. They have both been miles ahead of Carra in terms of Pace, Aerial ability, passing ability and general effectiveness for a long time. We didn't keep a clean sheet against eleven men all season until Carra done his calf since then they have come with alarming reliability.
 
From what I understand about the lad he's a diamond and has all the requisite attributes to be excellent for us but none of that takes into account reality does it, teh day to day grind we actually live in.

lets take one specific real world example we've tried to incorporate Henderson, Enrique, Bellamy, Carroll, Suarez and Adam sometimes all at the same time and its showed - throwing in another newbie during that wasn't going to help was it?


Both Carragher and Suarez were newbies to all of the new recruits bar Bellamy so what difference would it make. They hadn't played with Carra either what would you prefer to start your career with someone who taken apart against Altidore in a World Cup or someone who helped keep four clean sheets in arow against the likes of Alexis Sanchez, Aguero, Tevez, Higuain, Messi and Di Maria. Coates is not some snotty nosed teenager we have signed from Marine he is an experienced full International with an impeccable pedigree and crucially he is a naturally left sided, composed athletic Centre back who is a perfect fit with Skrtel not a blown up ageing full back with a million miles on the clock.

Is a car with a million miles on the clock vastly experienced or merely clapped out.

I admire your resolute defence of Carra but even you must admit he is fast becoming a liability.   
« Last Edit: March 4, 2012, 10:42:22 pm by Al 555 »
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1755 on: March 5, 2012, 12:49:28 am »
In general Skrtels form since his knee injury has been average, Agger has been injured too much - on paper they make a superb pair, in practice this season they've been great but neither has been reliable enough before - Aggers longest run of consecutive games was something like 7 in three years (thats stats for ye)

Skrtel played every game last season. And bar Arsenal and the 30 minutes he was benched against Bolton he has played every minute of this leagues season too. As for Agger, he might've been injured a lot but he's still managed 5 more games than Gerrard in the past 2 seasons and we shipped out not one, but two peak years, full on internationals attacking midfielders to accomodate him and his highly questionable physical condition. Even with his injury record and decline in form people were OK with that because of who he is and what he could do. And as someone said last year, you don't get rid of Agger because even with his injuries he is a phenomenal player. You keep Agger for 20 games a season, because you know that with him you will get 20 top class games. Is it really worth hanging on to Jamie Carragher for 50 games a season because he used to be good once upon a time? Carragher should've been replaced 2 years ago, he should've taken over the role Kyrgiakos did when he arrived instead of staying the first name on the team sheet. Or will you try and convince me that Carragher of the past 2 seasons has been a lifesaver and we shouldn't have upgraded?
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1756 on: March 5, 2012, 08:04:15 am »
So why do you think despite not deserving to be Carra has been picked by so many managers?

Well, there could be a multitude of reasons, they could think he's good enough, or the alternatives aren't, or it could be political. I don't know.
« Last Edit: March 5, 2012, 08:13:27 am by Hazell »
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1757 on: March 5, 2012, 08:42:04 am »
Time for Coates get some minutes now in my opinion.

We're unlikely to get fourth and Coates will benefit us longer than Carragher will, simple as that really.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1758 on: March 5, 2012, 08:56:18 am »
Ah well, I said enough before the game, granted there will be those who still think Carragher should be first choice, nevermind the first choice replacement..he should be neither.
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Re: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership
« Reply #1759 on: March 5, 2012, 09:20:38 am »
what shape was he in when Kuyt showed him up half a dozen times in training...

but none of that takes into account reality does it...
Obviously not using that laughable fantasy example.
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