Author Topic: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool  (Read 33100 times)

Offline Hinesy

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FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« on: May 5, 2012, 07:13:04 pm »
The whole of the ball needs to be over the whole of the line and that sums up our season.

Lacklustre first half from both teams and we shoulda coulda won it. How many times we said that this year.

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Yep.

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #1 on: May 5, 2012, 08:22:17 pm »
The goal line incident was unfortunate, not because it was or wasn't a goal but because we really should have fucking scored. Johnson got beyond Cole for once, and although Suarez robbed him after that ( I was screaming for a Johnno left foot special) we still should have executed from there. We had them on the ropes, the game was there for us in that moment.

The reason the game was allowed to turn on that moment, however, is that we didn't show up for the first hour and gave away pitch, possession and a couple of soft goals. Very disappointing.

Offline El Campeador

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #2 on: May 5, 2012, 09:09:18 pm »
It was always going to be difficult to break down a defensive shield dripping with the blood of Barca, but the Scouse gave it a better go than the Catalans. That Geordie is a fucking Beast.

But for Reina being softer than Darth Czecher, it would have been 2-1 the other way.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #3 on: May 5, 2012, 09:34:12 pm »
Very disappointing and a cartelogue of errors for the first goal. You cannot criticise one person for the first hour as everyone and everything was bad.

Depressing but roll on next season. I would be off to get drunk but where I live I'd probably find a shit load of plastics.

Offline Juan Loco

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #4 on: May 5, 2012, 11:20:39 pm »
I was reasonably happy when I saw the team sheet. I'd be surprised if most weren't. The reaction in here was your usual "other than Downing..." stuff. I think most would've been pleased to see us line up with three in the middle, and then it's a case of Carroll or Suarez, and we would've all wanted Suarez to win that. You could say Kenny could've played him on the wing, but he rarely has and he was never going to start today.

So yeah, when the team sheet comes out, I'm reasonably happy with it. Then it goes out on the pitch...

See, more often than not I try and square away the line-up with what I think they're going for. Occasionally something will frustrate me, but usually I'm trying to see why player X is playing role Y. So going into the game today I'm thinking we're going 4-3-3 because that's how we've beaten Chelsea twice this season. I'm thinking we're going 3 in the middle so Chelsea don't out-number us in that area , and I'm thinking we're going Downing and Bellamy as inverted wingers because we're expecting Chelsea to have more of the ball than us due to their experience in the middle and we'll want pace on the break. I'm thinking Downing will be playing on the right because we're going to want to track Cole as a runner, and because Downing had the better of him in Villa's 4-4 draw at Chelsea last season. I'm thinking Bellamy's on the left because whilst Bosingwa is pacey enough to deal with someone who runs at him, his concentration is poor and Bellamy's runs in behind can exploit that.  I'm also thinking we're less arsed about tracking Bosingwa's bursts forward, because we'll be content to keep Bellamy high up the pitch and ready to suck Ivanovic out of the centre if we can break forward quickly.

You can imagine, after thinking all of this, how surprised I was to see Bellamy and Downing line up on their 'natural' - yet poorer - sides, stretching the pitch. We had no one off the flanks moving in behind their midfield offering options for runners. Neither, as a result, was close enough to Suarez to allow him anyone to play off. With Chelsea doubling up down the flanks every ball was coming back inside to Henderson and Spearing, neither of whom had the ability to break the lines going forward, so Gerrard drops back in. Play stretches further, Suarez is even more isolated.

Hindsight kicked in pretty quickly into the match. Within the first 20 minutes it was clear that Spearing was out of his depth to an embarrassing extent. The idea of matching them in the midfield seemed ridiculous at that point. We should’ve had Carroll on and by-passed it entirely. He may have had a mare, but I can’t help but thinking the man in the middle for a 4-3-3 would’ve been Shelvey. With Henderson terrified of his shadow for much of the game and Spearing giving his usual master class in looking like he’s playing well individually, but the shape of the team falling to shit around him. There’s no guarantee Shelvey would’ve played well, but he’s the one with the bottle and ability.


The other major disappointment today was the fact that it was long into the 2nd half before I can remember either centreback challenging Drogba for a big punt up the pitch. They almost seemed under instruction to allow him to claim the first ball. Fair enough if they were told to fight for the second ball, but it seemed ridiculous that he was allowed to bring their vastly superior midfield into the game.


Carroll almost changed the game entirely. There is the ability there for him to be a really useful reference point for the team to play off, but he and Suarez remain an unbalanced partnership, and without the glut of goals required from him, it seems to weaken us in other areas. He could be so much more than the wild card he currently is. As said on so many occasions, he needs to have a sit down over the summer and watch how a striker moves in the box. Just pulling to the back post and being a magnate for the ball isn’t enough.

Crikey, he can’t half cause some havoc when he’s on blob though.
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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #5 on: May 5, 2012, 11:20:53 pm »
The canonisation of John Terry made me want to spew before the game. But other than that, I was happy enough with the line up. But Spearing was the fulcrum on which the whole game turned for me. That area of the pitch during the period they were on top was pivotal. Gerrard got sucked back, isolating Suarez. Mata bosses him, feeds Ramires, and from there we were on the back foot for the first. The second was more blatant, again soft, but dive in and they get a run on you. That one position pegged us back and the two who might have compensated were brainless - Downing and Enrique - that is until Spearing went off, Henderson tucked in alongside Gerrard in the middle, and Carroll came on.

Maybe Downing just works better in an orthodox 442? Maybe Enrique causes more problems than he solves? Maybe Suarez needs players closer to him? And maybe Gerrard needs a midfield anchoring pair he can trust to do the job without having to retreat. Then he'd have looked like a better version of Mata in that 4231 of course, but instead he looked a poor man's Lampard on the day. Lampard was excellent for them. Disciplined and incisive from deep. He's learned under Di Matteo maybe.

Carroll did well. Chelsea took advantage of our mistakes and deserved the win probably, but we could have won it with some luck and some midfield quality. The rest was maybe incidental.

Honourable mentions for Glen Johnson and the centre halves, who were excellent again I thought. We're not as far off as people think.
« Last Edit: May 6, 2012, 08:19:17 am by royhendo »

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #6 on: May 5, 2012, 11:35:38 pm »
 The other major disappointment today was the fact that it was long into the 2nd half before I can remember either centreback challenging Drogba for a big punt up the pitch. They almost seemed under instruction to allow him to claim the first ball. Fair enough if they were told to fight for the second ball, but it seemed ridiculous that he was allowed to bring their vastly superior midfield into the game. 

I dunno. Drogba scored obviously, but he wasn't a massive problem I didn't think. Two gifts really eh? Other than that, they didn't threaten much. They only had the midfield sway when the wee man was on the park, sadly. I also think Jordan did ok, but evidently that's a minortitty view. 

Offline Vulmea

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #7 on: May 6, 2012, 12:32:05 am »
Just got back...shit day - can't think of any more underserving fans than those plastic flag waving no marks - dont know about having no history, they definately have no soul - they exemplify modern football plastic  convenient, throw away loyalty, I dont think they have any appreciation of the game at all - but why should they when its just been bought and paid for and given to them  -  the footballing gods themselves have clearly been bought and sold 1.20 for  a packet of crisps.... 4.50 for a half of lager  , told when to sing our anthem, provided with a luvly plastic flag - the acoustics are truly shite - at least I got to stand all game - at least a few lads around us joined in and made a noise- the last 25 minutes made the whole thing bearable I guess

We started too slowly - I think in part thats down to Spearing he slows everything down to a snails pace -but in part its because Downing was invisible first half - there was no outlet - is he under instructions not to go forward, just retain the ball ? - he was the  opposite of a winger - more of a regniw,  constantly stopping, coming backwards  - he refused to take on the fullback time and again.

Suarez was completely isolated first half because Gerrard had to drop deep to get the ball - neither Henderson nor Spearing could create anything,  neither were able to switch play with any pace nor feed it into Suarez's feet with any purpose - several times we had cross field balls out wide and into space but just played it safe and inside - one error after another for the first goal but Enrique should have cleared him out - was it me or did Chelsea just try and play out time after that - wasting time from the 12th minute onwards - I expected the board at the end to be 10 minutes - they took the piss

Carroll played well when he came on, looked like the beast we bought - its not the greatest pass and move style but he terrified their defenders - liked the bit near the half way line were he shrugged somebody off the ball turned and tried to run at them - he's a useful weapon and one that can create space for everybody else - even Downing grew a pair in the last 25 minutes - I thought Chelsea were there for the taking - you could see what Barca had to put up with though with the constant break up of the game - Drogba's death and resurrection took the wind out of our sails but even so we should have got it back to 2 -2

I think a number of our players will be beating themselves up tonight knowing they could and should have done better and maybe one or two will be wondering where their future lies
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Offline Degs

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #8 on: May 6, 2012, 12:39:12 am »
To go into the start of the season without adequate, if any, cover for Lucas was a gamble.
To ignore the opportunity to correct this 2 months after Lucas was injured, and ruled out for the season, was criminal.

Jay Spearing always looked a reserve team player and an unnoticeable spell on loan at Leicester served merely to confirm his level at the club.  With a few unimpressive cameos here and there it looked as if Spearing's Liverpool career would be over before it began, another to add to the list of "ours but not us" along with Stephen Warnock, Neil Mellor, etc. A loyal servant who had won Youth Cups and a Reserve League title but failed to jump the huge chasm of class between himself and players such as Javier Mascherano, and the ever improving Lucas Leiva.

When Kenny walked back into Liverpool he found a midfield that was threadbare: aside from Lucas we had Gerrard suffering from injuries, an inexperienced Shelvey, Christian Poulson (attempting to personify a Jean Paul Sartre lecture on existentialism), and Jay Spearing.  After over half a season of suffering under Christian Poulsen (if, in fact, he did exist at all) Jay was given his chance against Everton at home.  The enthusiasm he brought to central midfield with his non-stop hustling, bustling, pointing and shouting was a breath of fresh air in comparison to what had gone before him.  While Lucas sat and covered Jay was able to be that man between the lines of midfield and forward that had been missing for seasons.  Out of nowhere Jay had made his mark and impressed all around him, but it would not last.

As we went into this season Jay's previous rampaging exploits were forgotten and he was somehow given the task of covering for Lucas in defensive midfield, having never previously looked capable there.  While Adam and Gerrard took up the mantle of Jay's old role the timebomb started to tick.

August 13th - First game of the season, Lucas starts and Jay is on the bench.

tick

August 24th - First cup game of the season. Jay starts in place of Lucas in defensive midfield.

tick

December 1st - Lucas faces the season out with ligament damage

tick tick

December 5th - Spearing starts in place of the injured Lucas, he is sent off, Liverpool lose 1-0.

tick tick tick

February 1st - No arrivals at Anfield, Jay Spearing retains his position in defensive midfield.

BOOM

As the transfer window shut so to did the hope that the Jay Spearing's ill fated foray into defensive midfield was about to end.  Jay was now suffering from the same syndrome as those around him, he was out of position and he didn't have Lucas Leiva to bail him out of trouble. 

Almost instantly Jay's performances started to give cause for concern: away at Old Trafford (brought off on 60 minutes), at home to Arsenal and Sunderland.  Spearing found himself being caught out of position time after time.  What got him into the Liverpool side and kept him there was his enthusiasm and ability to run between the lines off the ball, now this set of traits was in direct contrast to what he was being asked to do.  Added to this was Jay's willingness to try and pick out a "killer ball", this was commended and served a great purpose when he was pushing on the season before but in a deeper role Spearing was trying too much and his passing was sloppy, combined with the tendency to kill any move's rhythm dead in it's tracks as the opposition rushed back waiting for his pass.

The game before the Cup Final, against Fulham Jay was awful, he was forever out of position and when he did receive the ball he was just as quick to give it away.  That was Kenny's warning sign.  After the riot act had been read Kenny persevered with the midfield that had been overrun by 35 year old Danny Murphy and co. in order to accommodate Gerrard further up the pitch.

As Henderson and Spearing ran into the same difficulties they had only 1 match previously it caused Gerrard to drop deep and leave Luis Suarez isolated up top. As Spearing let the ball go for the first he did so out of position, leaving an acre of space for Ramires to run in to and consequently for Reina to once again fail to do the basics for fear of the spectacular.

An isolated front man has almost come as standard with a Kenny Dalglish line up this season, whether he is played on his own, whether his partner is told to play 15 yards behind him, or whether the "attacking midfielder" who is supposed to help him is drafted in to patch defects elsewhere in the team. As Spearing and Henderson became more anonymous it meant a deeper and deeper sitting Gerrard until finally, around 35 minutes in, Henderson was switched to the right while Gerrard dropped and Bellamy pushed further on. 

Our link-up man was now removed, we no longer had 1 isolated striker but by an unfathomable oxymoron had 2 isolated strikers.
As the second half plodded along it wasn't long before Jay's enthusiasm proved his downfall, committing himself fully for an almost unwinnable ball he allowed Chelsea the time and space to tear holes in our back line while he could only look on from the ground up.

It wasn't after 60 minutes but after 9 months that the penny dropped and Jay was quickly pulled from the holding midfield role.  As he did so on came another forlorn figure.  Andy Carroll.

Carroll has played well for a spell of around 3-4 months now yet in the system he is told to play in he is ineffective. He wins everything in the air yet his position on the pitch, between opposition midfield and defensive lines, means the second ball is often sacrificed or if it is won then it is held up for a glacial period of time, rendering it useless.  If Andy does win the ball, and it is picked up on then by the time a decent ball is put into the area his turning circle and lack of pace means he's nowhere near it. He was the embodiment of the old John Peel mantra of "Right time, right place, wrong speed".

As Carroll came on today we saw what might be.  In a cup final with nothing to lose the defence pushed up, the midfield pushed up, suddenly Andy Carroll was not caught in a no mans land between midfield and forward, suddenly every time he won the ball it quickly fell to an onrushing red shirt.  Suddenly we had the Andy Carroll that we were promised, a rampaging battering ram of a beast - Duncan Ferguson with shit hair.  The big man brought the game to life and scared the shit out Chelsea's back line.  As he dropped to win aerial balls his position was filled by midfield runners, the link up play made me wish we started every game 2-0 down.

That however is not just the story of our season it is the story of the past 2 decades.  As Manchester United turn up they do so with an arrogant swagger that comes with knowing victory is assured.  In their dominance of the last 2 decades they haven't built from a steady platform and then pushed on they have gone top gear from minute one and subjugated everybody else around them.  If Andy Carroll played for Manchester United he'd have twice the goals he does for us because they push on without the fear of loss from minute one.

Today was heartbreaking but there are lessons that need to be learned.

To get the best from Carroll get people around him and play the team further up.

When the only cover you have for your player of the season is requiring somebody to play out of position - you need to spend.
When the unthinkable happens and that cover has to play regularly - you need to spend.
When that cover does not meet the standard - you need to spend.

We didn't lose this match today, we lost it in January sitting idly by.
« Last Edit: May 6, 2012, 12:45:59 am by Degs »

Offline Col

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #9 on: May 6, 2012, 03:17:11 am »
Degs - I fully agree with that. Spearing has never been anything less than completely out of his depth. It's not his fault, he's just not very good.

The Lucas-shaped hole we have in our midfield has now eclipsed the Alonso-shaped hole we are still trying to fill. Jay Spearing isn't big enough to fill either. Oddly, neither is the pedestrian, one-footed, and somewhat rotund Charlie Adam. Jordan Henderson could go a long way towards removing the need to fill one of them, but he's not there yet. Gerrard can fill the Lucas role on occasion, but he's wasted there and he switches off because he doesn't like doing it. Jonjo Shelvey, as talented and confident as he looks, is also still a million miles away.

We have too many players in this squad who are multiple miles away from being involved in a top class side - but I guess that's ok as we aren't one and haven't been since 07/08. Compare that midfield to our current one - it's almost comical. The centre of our midfield does not have a leader, and as a result we get dominated too easily, too often. Henderson and Shelvey are both talented, but young. Adam is one-dimensional, apalling defensively, slow, and positionally inept. Jay Spearing just makes me angry. Gerrard never has been, and never will be, a holding or defensive midfielder.

Next season, we need to sign two top-class players to play alongside Lucas, allowing Gerrard to play further forward and take regular breaks, and allow Henderson and Shelvey chance to develop. Adam and Spearing should not be at the club next season. It doesn't work.

Stewart Downing is in the same boat, albeit I think he's better technically than most players - he just lacks bottle and that's not something you can teach. He did well at Villa where he was allowed to have off-days, but in a team where good performances are expected every week he hides so far inside his shell he may as well be a tortoise. He, like Adam, has been a huge failure and a massive disappointment. We should cut our losses on both of them and move on.

Almost as criminal as not having suitable competition, support, and cover for Lucas, was leaving Jose Enrique in the same position. He's been exhausted for about 4 months. It's also staggering how one-footed a professional footballer can be - I once saw John Arne Riise use his right foot, but I don't think I'll ever be able to say that about Enrique. Show him onto his right foot, and he'll turn around (using three touches of his left and his body to shield the ball) and pass the ball backwards. Every time. Every single time. Don't get me wrong, I like him - but he's limited in a couple of major areas, and with no suitable competition to fight for a place, what inspiration is there for him to improve?

We need another major clear-out in the summer. Some of the older heads like Maxi, Aurelio and Kuyt will likely leave, but we need to bite the bullet and get rid of the players who have been shocking all season without showing any signs of potential or even just that they "get it". Mr Downing, the world's best defensive winger, I'm looking at you. You've had 12 months to try and find your testicles and you've come up smelling of fish. Even Nabil El Zhar tried to beat his man.

Downing, Adam, Kuyt, Maxi, Aurelio, Spearing, Pacheco, Aquilani, and Cole could all realistically leave the club this summer. Whoever is in charge (which is a completely different discussion) needs to replace them with cocky bastards with ability.

I want players like Daniel Sturridge. Players with quality, and a bit of an ego. Enough about them to give it a go. Not players who are scared of their own shadow or scared to fail. If you're scared to fail, you won't give everything to win. That's where we're at right now, and it absolutely has to change.

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Offline No666

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #10 on: May 6, 2012, 08:22:02 am »
Quote
To go into the start of the season without adequate, if any, cover for Lucas was a gamble.
To ignore the opportunity to correct this 2 months after Lucas was injured, and ruled out for the season, was criminal.

Looking at that midfield duo of Henderson and Spearing beforehand and I said to the missus how it was going to pan out. Not that she appreciated my tactical foresight. Funny that. What worked last week was never going to hold its own against the Chelsea midfield. The only comprehensible reason I can think that we didn't find a replacement/partner for Lucas in January is because the right target would not/could not move in that window and we weren't about to go for third choice again.

Oh, and I f*ckin' hate John Terry.

royhendo

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #11 on: May 6, 2012, 09:00:18 am »
For what it's worth, this was my first half doodle. I got fixated on wee Jay. It was like the hull had sprung a hole. It was only exacerbated by Enrique and Downing. Not much wonder Gerrard retreated.



« Last Edit: May 6, 2012, 09:05:32 am by royhendo »

Offline Vulmea

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #12 on: May 6, 2012, 11:01:44 am »
 are you saying you sat down to watch the cup final with a pencil and paper?

thats like me dad telling me he preferred tomato sauce with his bacon and egg its just not right
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royhendo

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #13 on: May 6, 2012, 11:57:50 am »
are you saying you sat down to watch the cup final with a pencil and paper?

thats like me dad telling me he preferred tomato sauce with his bacon and egg its just not right

Yup. Watched it twice. ;D

Offline SWRC

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #14 on: May 6, 2012, 12:03:58 pm »
The whole of the ball needs to be over the whole of the line and that sums up our season.
Lacklustre first half from both teams and we shoulda coulda won it. How many times we said that this year.

Whisky please.

Plus daylight, we need to see daylight, between ball and line, ::)
Liverpool players must play like a lion, give his all. There must be determination, commitment and resolve to be a Liverpool player.

Offline Niru Red4ever

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #15 on: May 6, 2012, 12:05:52 pm »
For what it's worth, this was my first half doodle. I got fixated on wee Jay. It was like the hull had sprung a hole. It was only exacerbated by Enrique and Downing. Not much wonder Gerrard retreated.

So Roy is Rafa. Surprised you remained hidden so long ;)
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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #16 on: May 6, 2012, 12:06:26 pm »
Wrong selections & tactics, we played better when Andy Carroll came on, Kuyt should have came on earlier, Bellamy was poor, Henderson & Downing were woeful. I didn't think it was over the line, but Carroll should have scored anyway, but can't blame him as he changed the game when he came on, & scored a great goal, & 2 poor goals to coincide.
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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #17 on: May 6, 2012, 12:08:29 pm »
you cant give a side like Chelsea a 2 goal start, should have made the change at half time every man and his dog could see that Luis couldnt cope on his own, Carrol was different class when he came on , shame he wasnt on the park for the whole second half, it reminded me of many games against Chelsea in reverse though, we normally go in front and they batter at the door until the end
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Offline Alf

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #18 on: May 6, 2012, 12:09:17 pm »
We were awful in the 1st half but improved in the 2nd. Carroll was outstanding while Enrique & Spearing were abysmal. Reina should have done better with the opener getting beaten by his near post but couldn't do anything to have stopped the 2nd. Gutted.

Offline redmonkey

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #19 on: May 6, 2012, 12:21:03 pm »

Desperately need some players who can beat a man with pace.  Ramires was excellent for Chelsea, and we have no one like him in our squad.  They have a lot more penetration, especially from wide areas because of this.  This issue needs to be addressed most urgently, along with the cover for Lucas.

I'm actually going to partially defend Downing, yes he was generally poor but Enrique was worse and did Downing no favours.




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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #20 on: May 6, 2012, 12:25:42 pm »
These cup finals have been a welcome distraction for many, but not for me.

The game went exactly how I thought it would for the most part. We played exactly the way I feared we would, until Carroll came on.

It is an example of just how difficult a job it is to be a manager when you see the performance Andy Carroll gave yesterday. That was the player we bought from Newcastle, he was a beast, he bossed everything, he was everywhere. But where has he been for the last 18 months? Kenny, like us, must sometimes scratch his head in wonder.  There would have been no question of whether Carroll would have been on from the start if that was the sort of performance he gave week in, week out.

But what we suffer from is a noticeable lack of quality. Spearing is out of his depth, he’s a good lad and he gives his all, but he’s just not good enough. Henderson may or may not have what it takes, I don’t know, he may come good. But he hasn’t been helped by having to sometimes play out of position and not having any real competition for his place (this is something that can be said throughout the entire squad and needs addressing, fast).  Gerrard like it or not is not the same player he once was, and sadly he never will be again. There will be the odd game or moment here and there, but he’s on the downward slope. We need to find someone for his role, someone young who will be snapping at his heels to get in the first team; this will also drive Gerrard on and we may get more from him yet.

But, as I have said, it is a major concern that we have no strength in depth. Jesus, we don’t have much strength full stop. We need more competition for places to eradicate complacency, we need to be prepared to use youth more often, we need these things before we can ever hope to be fighting for titles. This is basic housekeeping but it provides the foundations for the right mentality, a professionalism and determination throughout. An attitude that says “I don’t give a fuck who you are, we are Liverpool”.

Unfortunately, we don’t seem to have any of this in place right now. It’s been an awful season in my view, the table doesn’t lie. Sure, we’ve dominated teams at Anfield and had the worst run of bad luck in front of goal at home that I can remember in all in all of my 37 years, but it’s not the bad luck that is to blame. There are too many players in too many crucial areas that are simply not good enough. You can argue over tactics and formations until you are blue in the face, it means nothing if you haven’t got the quality to implement those tactics. Take Downing for example; here is a player who when signed I had my doubts, serious doubts. He’s done ok at Villa I thought, but is he really the best we could find to fill that role? My doubts have been regularly and painfully confirmed as game after game I see this man hide on the pitch, drifting in-field trying to look involved rather than hanging out wide screaming for the ball and looking to then beat his man. Is this just a case of the club and the expectations being too much for him? I don’t know, I don’t think even he knows, but I know one thing; if he never plays in that red shirt again it’ll be too soon.

We need a good clear out this summer; Kenny needs to say goodbye to quite a few players who are just not good enough for this club and even more importantly, get some real quality in. I really do believe that if we do things right in the summer then next season we could genuinely surprise quite a few people. In Suarez we have one of the most talented, gifted and unpredictable forwards in the world and if Carroll has found his mojo, if he can reproduce what he did at Wembley over the course of a season, then there is plenty good reason to be optimistic for next season. We just need the quality in midfield and on the wings to back them up; we need strength in depth. It’s not a re-build, it’s more of a spring clean with big fat fucking nobs on; we’ll be fine then I reckon, ready to properly compete.
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Offline BCCC

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #21 on: May 6, 2012, 12:26:50 pm »
Well I hope Mourinho has finally found closure from the demons of 2005 and our fans don't embark on a similar crusade. Tactically everything hinged on the performance both individually and collectively of Spearing and Henderson. The fact that the pair struggled and were a bit naive to Chelsea's experienced midfield saw us look toothless for the first hour.

Small changes had no effect, Suarez became more and more isolated against a confident and strong Chelsea back four. It took the introduction of Andy Carroll to finally put their defence under some pressure that saw them defend in their Nou Camp esq manner. Too little too late, too many sub standard performances that have typified our three Wembley appearances this season - only this time the opposition were no mugs and found us out.

I'm pissed off that we made a swan song for their aging generation a relatively easy ride but if you look at the bigger picture we are a good season at least in front of them for a rebuilding job. Our younger players will have gained in experience and Kenny will know which ones have the inner belief to make the next step - cup finals are a good substitute for title run ins in the character stakes. We should find out who those players are this summer and I'm sure we all have our own opinions but the manager who ever he is has a platform.

A season to forget but one that has to be endured for the long run in my opinion (off field debacles aside).
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Offline Garcepticon

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #22 on: May 6, 2012, 12:34:37 pm »
The most basic analysis id offer is that doing well in football requires good players, once you have those players you need to make sure those players see as much of the ball as possible. With that in mind, who is better in attack; Johnson or Enrique, from everything I have seen it would seem the answer is Johnson. Furthermore, who does he have infront of him - Bellamy, who, given how poor Downing has been, is one of our best attacking outlets. Given this, why did we consistently attack down the left? It didn't work, we should have got Johnson involved more and our failure to do so was frustrating. I honestly think Downing knew Enrique wouldn't do anything with the ball but he still passed it to him  because he didnt want to try something which would put the onus on him. Obviously that is idle speculation and based on a perception of Downing as a coward, but i think it isn't far off the truth.

The second thing I thought was that Carroll was only so good because we were 2-0 down, and subsequently we played with no pressure and the Chelsea defence dropped so deep as a result of the advantage they had. Bringing him on at half time may have resulted in a different performance from him - regardless it was a fantastic display of cajones
« Last Edit: May 6, 2012, 03:37:36 pm by Garcepticon »

Offline gamble

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #23 on: May 6, 2012, 12:40:18 pm »
I just can't agree with those who say we are nearly there. I don't think we have even started. We don't believe in a short blanket, we leave massive and we leave gaps between attack, midfield and defence. Maybe the plan was for Gerrard to be closer to Suarez and had to retreat, but the reasons for him having to go back and help the midfield were decided far far earlier than 5.15pm. Agree with Col when he says Gerrard isn't a holding player and never could be, and he just didn't know what to do when he was caught up in the chaos that went on in midfield.

We were all mostly happy with the lineup because it was the best we could do with the resources available.

The lack of leaders for me means lack of players who know how to organise on the pitch, where to hold the lines and where to move to. If you have been watching Chelsea since Di Matteo took over you can see how his players are constantly looking over their shoulders, left and right, just to make sure they keep their shape together. Poor Danny agger, one of the only real footballers in our squad, in the first half took the ball forward all on his own - a kind of message to others to push forwards. No-one else realised this, not on the pitch and worringly on the bench.


What worries mose is that Kenny, SC and KK (whoever really decides tactics) can't understand is that teams are comfortable when we have the ball. If people can't relate results like this and results against the smaller shite we've played against this year who have turned us over - is that teams are happy for us to have the ball whilst they hold their positions, stay organised, play lines of defence and hit us on the counter.

We don't have enough pace or craft (i.e. quick passing, enough individual skill) to get behind lines of defence. We don't have a playing style that can pull lines of defence out of their position either. Chelsea were pretty comfortable all game against us. The Carroll goal was a lucky break and the only other time we managed to get behind the defence was when Suarez got behind Cole (i think) and put the cross in for Carroll's header.

There's also a confusion to what we do when we are not in possession and this has been the same all season.  Do we press when we don't have possession or not? Because somebody should tell Suarez for example, who tries to press from the front and when he looks over his shoulder for back up, he realises he never has any. The only game I can remember when we organised out of possession was the first leg against Man City in the league cup, brutal but it got the result we needed. Other than that I can't see how we know what we are meant to do when we don't have the ball.

I'm not sure we have enough when we are in possession, when we are of possession and we have been lumbered with a bunch of expensive personnel who we be able to shift out easily. I love Kenny but his stubborness (or loyalty) to his tactics (waiting so long before changing tactics when it is obvious it is going wrong) and loyalty to his players is worrying. Not impressed by those around him either who aren't dealing with the season long problems we have had. Chelsea played the way we expected them to play and we just weren't prepared for it. I've made good money this year betting against us for the first time ever, that's how predictable we have become.

Offline conman

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #24 on: May 6, 2012, 12:43:20 pm »
:lmao , good man Roy.


For me, the same problems we have suffered from season long were on display throughout the game.

The lack of movement (intelligent or otherwise) off the ball.
* Full backs and wingers don't overlap each other in the final third, so in a Downing/Bellamy is left isolated on the wing while Johnson/Enrique wander inside.

* The midfield walk around each other, and get in each others way.

* Our players are caught flatfooted & off gaurd when we have the ball, way too often.

* Our midfield is simply far too weak


Fairplay to Andy Carroll though, he really spiced things up and became a threat, a go to guy if you like. It just shows that the players on the pitch can pick it up a level, if encouraged to do so, or inspired. Is Gerrard a strong enough captain to grab the players by the scruff of their necks and get them into the game? Keane was a master at this, Gerrard was always a master at inspiring players by his play, but that may not be enough.

I can't wait until we buy a few more quality players and get lucas back next season, maybe we can consistently turn Carroll into a beast. I think it was Juan who said about that he needs to sit down this summer and study strikers movement in the box. But i would have thought this is something Kenny should already be doing. Maybe he is already, who knows! I don't want to turn this into a debate on former managers, but Rafa used to get the best out of the players he had, improving them by teaching them how to be better. We should still be doing this, telling Downing to take on defenders, Enrique to overlap, its basic, but would be a massive improvement.

I am concerned by the management this season, these glaring problems have not been corrected, and continue to stare us in the face, right to the end of the season. We do play some good football, but until the above is corrected, we will not be a top 4 side.

We did boss the last 30mins.. Fairplay to the fans too, always a class above
« Last Edit: May 6, 2012, 12:45:40 pm by conman »

Offline conman

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #25 on: May 6, 2012, 12:49:34 pm »
I agree Fletch.

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #26 on: May 6, 2012, 01:04:58 pm »
I couldn't find fault with the starting 11, it was the best we could go with unless you really want to argue a case for Carroll's inclusion but it would be at the expense of something even hindsight couldn't visualize. I was even happy with the very cagey first 20 minutes, the slow slow temperament allowed the players to settle their nerves, and mine.

Chelsea's first goal was a straight forward defensive error, Enrique should have battled to get goal side of his man and it was worrying that the man that wanted to out muscle a player then out muscle him again all season made a pathetic attempt to get in to his position.

Then from that moment, albeit that we looked like we were in control for 10 minutes when we played like Kenny had electrified our boots the result was always going to be shocking. If Andy had buried his header I genuinely thing we would have won, but he didn't and we didn't have the players to rescue the situation. I'm certain Downing had a dream that he attacked a player with pace and was shot from the stands, there's no explanation for his fear to take a player on. Switching Bellamy and Downing was irrelevant and introducing Dirk was insignificant.

Unfortunately that team doesn't resemble much that we've had for the last 10 years never mind 30.
Where is the shrewdness of Macca or Hamman or the ability of Alonso. Where is the tenacity of Masch or the drive of SG?

I'll continue to state that luck hasn't gifted us much this season, whether its injuries, decisions or close chances missed - but overall we have to admit that we just not that good.

Was I fuck going to watch any of those plastic c*nts collect a medal, I'm beginning to hate that team as much as MU.

Oh, and Jon Champion, you are a bigger twat that I've often promoted on here. It took him less than 20 seconds - 20 fucking seconds to say we had a "ghost goal".


Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #27 on: May 6, 2012, 01:06:42 pm »
I have to admit i was worried from the off. Never confident with both Spearing and Henderson in the midfield. Henderson is a much better player than Spearing but even he has struggled to fit in and take the pressure on young shoulders so two of them at the same time was folly.

And of course because of that Gerrard sat deeper. Honestly i couldnt believe how tame we were.

I just dont understand us. I dont understand how we can come flying out of the blocks at teams, get scored against and dissapate, or on occasions make a non start and then when we get back into it decide that, actually after all we can beat these.

Its always been the same. Yesterday we gave Chelsea the cup. Chelsea were no great shakes, even Drogba was average. They had nothing. We made it easy, we gave them a cushion and then ran out of time.

But im glad this season is almost over, it should be confined to the bin, after everything thats gone on i've truly come to the end of my tether.

Its not just because we arnt doing well, as for the last 20 years we've been like that, but its the culmination of everything. This club is not the club it once was both off the pitch and on it in a sport that has lost its identity. The whole Suarez affair leaves me cold, whilst Terry, the real protaganist is championed, both by the press and the FA. The poor weekly occurence of referees, the grasp Ferguson has on the league in the shape of himself, his managers mates and the fa and the disgusting behaviour of chelsea fans in the semi and yesterday booing our players going up the steps, just what the hell has happened?

If i could switch this off inside of me i would in an instant. Its become an ugly sport, where cheats prosper, money is rewarded and influence, business and power runs it. Its a far cry from the old Canon league on a saturday afternoon at 3 o clock.

As for the club, well, my views are that the owners havent done enough. Not enough spend even if its been used poorly, no activity in january which was a massive error, lots of messing on the stadium.

The coaching, well Kenny i feel has let himself down and to some extent done a Houllier. He made the wrong purchases and ended up giving us this weird hybrid of a system that doesnt really work for the personell that we have. He hasnt rewarded performances which should be a basic trait of any manager, he has persisted with justifying certain players whilst ignoring others.

The players, well really i can only point the finger of blame at Reina, who has been here for a while, should know better, should be more of a leader and has in fact let the club down these past few seasons. You cant point the finger at Carroll, Henderson, Spearing, Adam, Enrique or Downing. We knew what we were getting. We knew some would need time and that some would not cut it and thats some just cant be relied on, but still, the management has persisted.

I was so passive over Rafa, whether he stayed or went i didnt mind at the time, i just didnt care with everything that was happening, but now? I miss the fact that he had a plan and a strategy and a goal and was obsessive over that. Thats something this club no longer has.
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Offline Koplass

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #28 on: May 6, 2012, 01:14:59 pm »
Once again it was a case of Liverpool underperforming in a cup final, there's only so many times you can do that without getting punished. I can count on three fingers the amount of times over the past fifteen years where we’ve looked mentally prepared or comfortable in a game like this. Even when we’re facing teams that are a league below us we look overawed, nervous and on a fine cusp between success and failure.

Once again in the last thirty minutes we showed the spirit that has often pulled us kicking and screaming to victory, but this time it was too late. I believe Carroll’s header was over the line, but the fact that it wasn’t given was just a perfect mirror of our season, and an equally appropriate representation of Di Matteo’s lucky spell at Chelsea so far. Let’s face it, we couldn’t have possibly gone 90 minutes without hitting the woodwork, could we?

I think our worst performers on the day were Spearing, Enrique, Downing and Bellamy. In particular Spearing’s limitations exposed a real weakness at the heart of our team. His positioning and discipline still leave a lot to be desired, and had Lucas been playing yesterday I’m confident at least one of their pieces of attacking play would have been stopped before it led to a goal. Downing and Bellamy provided next to nothing on each wing, although in fairness to Downing he improved when Carroll came on, I thought for sixty minutes he was anonymous. Whilst Enrique probably had his worst game in a Liverpool shirt, his distribution was terrible and his defending in the lead up to the first goal was criminal. 

It felt like Chelsea were quite happy to allow our left-hand side the opportunity to attack them at will, safe in the knowledge that it would ultimately prove fruitless. Chelsea are an incredibly organised team, from front to back, if the likes of Messi, Iniesta and Xabi failed to break them down then the combination of Enrique and Downing stood no chance. They were, however, tighter on our right-hand side. They obviously learnt their lesson by not giving Glen Johnson an inch of space to come inside and shoot, I think he only managed that once in the whole game.

Our best performers were of course Carroll and Agger, and contrary to what a lot of people are saying I thought Henderson did quite well.

As part of the bigger picture, I feel like this game reinforced the fact that Downing and Spearing should not be relied upon as first team players. We need to bring in an accomplished defensive midfielder who can be used as back-up for Lucas and someone on the left wing who can actually provide an attacking threat. I would utilise Spearing as a third choice defensive midfielder and Downing as a second choice left-winger. It worries me though, that Kenny insists on using Downing as a key player so regularly.

With all that said, I didn’t feel too down after the game. When it comes to finals, you win some and you lose some. Chelsea got the bit of luck needed at that level and our two cup runs this season proved that on our day we can beat almost anyone. We’ve had a bad season overall, but progression isn’t always linear. This summer is pivotal for us in the transfer window but I feel like two of the signings that people were writing off at the start of the season (Henderson and Carroll) have proved that they are good enough to keep at Liverpool. We have some very obvious weaknesses that need addressing, but I’m confident that next season will be better than this. And if in the midst of a transitional season, a team can make two cup finals, you can’t complain too much can you?
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Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #29 on: May 6, 2012, 01:17:06 pm »
Before the game

I was supremely confident we would win, I was absolutely convinced. When I saw the team sheet I was quite happy. I say 'quite' because I had this numbing feeling that Suarez would be stranded up field on his lonesome.


First Half

Quite early in the game it was clear we were having difficulty in midfield. Chelsea pressed us well and when they had the ball, they looked tidy. Suarez quickly became isolated up top, as Gerrard dropped back to attempt to get the midfield going but, ended up dropping too far back. One occasion in particular stands out to me when Skrtel had the ball, about 30 or so yards from our goal, when suddenly Gerrard comes on the scene and despite Skrtel apparent reluctance to give Gerrard the ball, he does. So now we have Suarez main source of support, in our own half.

Downing and Enrique were all over the place, on the left, Bellamy wasn't up to much, Henderson and Spearing were very poor in the middle, chasing shadows and too many horizontal passes, and Suarez was like an abandoned puppy up front.

Second Half

On comes Carroll, and to no shock to me, we look a threat. I've said it for a while now, regardless of what you think of our style of play when Carroll plays, or his individual ability, we look so much more menacing, when he plays. Instead of a solitary Suarez to worry about, defenders now have something else to worry about, constantly and not just worrying about the occasional run from midfield. Carroll gave us the much needed injection, and suddenly Downing is looking a bit more enthusiastic on the left,  Henderson tidy in midfield and overall, as a team, we looked up for it.


Overall Thoughts

Same problems as we've had throughout the season, no willingness from our midfielders to get into the box/support Suarez in general. Pedestrian in central midfield, no real zip or intent in our passing.

Set pieces, yet again, atrocious. Something that certainly needs to be worked on over the summer, in pre season.


All in all, I'm optimistic about next season, I don't think we're a million miles away, the foundations are certainly there. For me, personally, the wide areas are where we need to focus on, this coming summer and would be a priority, for me, ahead of a new striker and cover/partner for Lucas.

Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #30 on: May 6, 2012, 01:18:10 pm »
Too early for an analysis of the season, but the game did appear to make some things a bit clearer.

The positives are that our defence is getting to be reliable and has some depth. They suffer when moved around and without Lucas' forward protection, but that would be true of any group. Andy is beginning to show what he is capable of, and since Newcastle did us the favour of severing any lingering mental ties, he's developed nicely. If, as others have noted, we play up the field he will become the battering ram we have needed for the lower ranked teams that try and park the bus next season. His attitude yesterday was magnificent, I was really pleased for the lad. Enrique has had a bad few games, but the talent is there, he's just looking tired - fixable.

The anxiety for me is the midfield and the constant swapping around. I have to believe Kenny knows what he wants to achieve by this, but its a mystery to me. Players keep over-compensating and the good prospects like Henderson seem to lose confidence because they are being thrown in too soon and in unfamiliar roles. Stevie tries to run everything, understandably but wrongly. Jay was so out of his depth it was sad to see. Other than Lucas back, we need a controller added in, someone who anchors our play and keeps us up the field. Unfortunately, I fear this is an area we need to sort urgently and by finding rather too many first team players, as the ones we have are in decline or simply squad material.

Luis was left useless because of this midfield deficiency, and Andy too until he forced the issue. We still don't get players into the box, and we still slow the ball up (anxiety, fear, lack of skill?) way too much. A deadly striker is a must, but I feel it would be a pointless spend if our midfield doesn't play forward and fast. Just someone else left isolated. I'm sure Kenny would have been demanding more effort, so the question remains, why don't we do it?

There was a moment coming up to half time when I genuinely wondered whether Downing had been sent off. If you can't run at the bunch of over-rated pensioners that Chelsea had put out, I don't know what to advise short of retiring him to Stoke.

I think Kenny's support for players this season has been admirable, and often that works. It seems to have done so with Andy and Luis. However, I think that he needs to decide to be feared rather than loved, and be utterly ruthless this summer. Machiavelli advises kings that being loved is unlikely to work - first, you must be feared. Next time he asks players to give their all for this club, they'd better shit themselves and work so hard they come off the field on a stretcher  - not ponce around for sixty minutes in a Cup Final. And even those that give their all like Jay, but who are simply not good enough, must also be dealt with without a backward glance. We have a long rebuild ahead - sentiment cannot play a part.

These last couple of games will be instructive as well. Anyone who looks like they are coasting to the holidays needs to be axed over the summer. Whilst we need to get the spine of the team right, we really need to get the spine of the team right.
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Offline ♠Dirty Harry♠

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #31 on: May 6, 2012, 01:19:05 pm »
Played good football for the whole of the match but out performed in the middle of the pitch for roughly 70% of the match, that's down to no holding midfielders, Gerrard having to drop back out of the hole to patch up the gaping void left by Henderson was a bit too frequent an occasion (I'll put it down to youth and inexperience), I'll be glad to see Lucas back.

Our reliance on using the left channel as our attack path is worrying as it didn't really come off yesterday (or most of the season), though that was potentially down to Enrique being a bit shite and incessantly losing the ball, GJ was more dangerous on the ball and I've more confidence in him taking on players.

Anyone criticising KD can fuck off, our football was more than decent, yes we need a stronger midfield but doing what we did with limited resources gives me faith.

Andy Carroll? Watch this fucking space, I hope we don't sell him, he's going to be immense.

Pepe for me has been glued to his 6 yard box too much this season, I don't know if this is down to KD or his coach, but he has lost something from the Rafa days, he doesn't have the same presence and with our defence so high up the pitch at times we need him performing his sweeper-keeper role that he's so fucking good at.

Bring in another holding midfielder, a cm, two wingers and a left back, remove Downing and Kuyt.

The goal? It was.
« Last Edit: May 6, 2012, 01:22:07 pm by ♠Dirty Harry♠ »

Offline the 92A

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #32 on: May 6, 2012, 01:19:40 pm »
Seems to be a concensus for once. We got down early and had been drinking since seven so my appreciation of the game wasn't at my sharpest but footballs about the occassion and we were having a ball, 'this is going to be a classic, lad' I can feel it'. Most of us were made up with the side when it came through including no Andy Carroll, No disagreements, we all thought Dalglish had been brave in his selection. As the first half was underway we were woefuland I'm trying to figure out why, in between having an ongoing argument with some fellas about sitting down and the thing that's sticking out is Gerrards too deep and not supporting Suarez, I'm blaming Gerrard for not trusting the midfield but as it goes on I realise it's not a question of trust. Spearing is so out of his depth that he's run out of people to point at and Gerrards retreating out of necessity. My mates saying we need to play 30 yards upfield and I'm wondering how the fuck we can do that. I keep thinking we're missing Lucas, I must of been going on about it because my mate chimes in 'yeah we're missing Alonso but he's not playing either'. 'Yeah, just play 30 yards further up the pitch, piece of piss... no we're not sitting down it's a fucking Cup Final'.
 
Dalglish brings on Carroll and the game changes. In desperation we throw everyone forward and the midfield route is forgotten as we push forward 30 yards and nearly win the game. The ball is given over the line and I'm right, it is a classic, the story continues as we party back but that never happened and I have to listen to 'we should have started with Carroll'. I want us to play football, with Lucas back or with intelligence recruited in the midfield we're not as far back as some think. to think we used to sing 'we've got the best midfield in the world' it's from there were are problems have come this season and it's there where we need to invest, you can't play intelligent football with no intelligence in the middle, the rest of the problems are symptoms not causes, bump into Philly and he's phillisophical, 'We've had two good trips down here, lads we can't win 'em all' and that's it for me, supporting the team means there's highs and lows the point is not to panic when your in the middle of a low, I'm looking forward to next season despite the dissapointment of yesterday, as pissed off as Iam, the biggest point I wanted to raise is how bad is that stadium announcer?
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Offline GODS LEFT BOOT

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #33 on: May 6, 2012, 01:24:15 pm »
In the first half,( like so often) the man with the ball is moving forward and there are players near him, but none of them represents a decent pass - I dont have the tactical nous to explain what is going on but when I watch a game I look at the man on the ball and try to pick a pass for him but so often there is just nothing on and for a team trying to play pass and move its a bit bizarre. - or is it just me?

I watched the Fulham game on my laptop with headphones, the crowd was so quiet all I could hear was KD was screaming at them when we were around halfway - 'forward' 'move'
If my assistant had not signalled a goal, I would have given a penalty and sent off goalkeeper Patr Cheh. he beeped me to signal the foul. The noise from the crowd  stopped me hearing it, I have been involved at places like Barcelona, Ibrox, Old Trafford, Arsenal, but I've never in my life been involved in such an atmosphere. IT WAS INCREDIBLE

Offline dernaroy

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #34 on: May 6, 2012, 01:26:15 pm »
It wasn't after 60 minutes but after 9 months that the penny dropped and Jay was quickly pulled from the holding midfield role.  As he did so on came another forlorn figure.  Andy Carroll.

Carroll has played well for a spell of around 3-4 months now yet in the system he is told to play in he is ineffective. He wins everything in the air yet his position on the pitch, between opposition midfield and defensive lines, means the second ball is often sacrificed or if it is won then it is held up for a glacial period of time, rendering it useless.  If Andy does win the ball, and it is picked up on then by the time a decent ball is put into the area his turning circle and lack of pace means he's nowhere near it. He was the embodiment of the old John Peel mantra of "Right time, right place, wrong speed".

As Carroll came on today we saw what might be.  In a cup final with nothing to lose the defence pushed up, the midfield pushed up, suddenly Andy Carroll was not caught in a no mans land between midfield and forward, suddenly every time he won the ball it quickly fell to an onrushing red shirt.  Suddenly we had the Andy Carroll that we were promised, a rampaging battering ram of a beast - Duncan Ferguson with shit hair.  The big man brought the game to life and scared the shit out Chelsea's back line.  As he dropped to win aerial balls his position was filled by midfield runners, the link up play made me wish we started every game 2-0 down.

That however is not just the story of our season it is the story of the past 2 decades.  As Manchester United turn up they do so with an arrogant swagger that comes with knowing victory is assured.  In their dominance of the last 2 decades they haven't built from a steady platform and then pushed on they have gone top gear from minute one and subjugated everybody else around them.  If Andy Carroll played for Manchester United he'd have twice the goals he does for us because they push on without the fear of loss from minute one.

Today was heartbreaking but there are lessons that need to be learned.

To get the best from Carroll get people around him and play the team further up.


Andy Carroll's performance yesterday probably presented us with more questions than answers.

About 5 or 6 weeks ago I thought I had finally come to the conclusion that unfortunately, as much as I like the lad and was desperate to see him succeed, it was just never going to work out between Liverpool and Andy Carroll. It was a mismatch, and we would have to cut our losses in the summer if we were going to move forward. I had agreed with the now clicheéd views that we play a horrible style of football with him on the pitch, that he and Suarez were just incapable of forming an effective partnership and that his poor goal-scoring record wasn't enough to justify his regular inclusion on the team.

When the final whistle blew yesterday there was a certain inevitability about it, the pain of defeat was not as intense because I had already gone through most of it after the 52nd minute when Drogba seemed to have put us out of our misery. But thank God for Andy Carroll. He gave us hope yesterday, something to take from the game and had things been different he might well have been heading into extra-time in an FA Cup final on a hat-trick and looking to win the Cup with what would have surely been one of the best individual displays in a final ever. It did soften the blow at the final whistle knowing that someone had had the balls to stand-up and be counted.

But his recent form presents us with a problem this summer. In his first 12 months at the club his touch and skill was woeful, it looked like we had bought a player who was capable literally of only heading the ball and even that area of his game wasn't exactly top class. But his recent form and certainly his performance yesterday has shown that he does have it in his locker to play on the ground. A confident Andy Carroll can lay the ball off perfectly, can hit first time passes and be the link man excellently in attack and, when it counts, can have the composure in front of goal to get the shot off when under serious pressure from a defender. Yesterday was undoutedly his best example of this but he has started to show glimpses that he has that ability over the last 5-6 weeks. The question is whether he is currently playing out of his skin, finding an unlikely period of form, or whether he can build on this consistently and develop into a top all-round striker. Only time will tell, and do we have the time to find out?

He showed yesterday that when he is on the pitch we don't have to resort to hoofing hopeful balls into the box praying for a fortunate knockdown but that if he could be consistently that good then we could play a varied game using his abilities in the air and on the ground. This is something that is going to have to be carefully considered and worked out. Do we discard Carroll and build the team around Luis, undoubtedly one of the most exciting talents in the world at the moment, or do we have the ideas and application to sit down and get things working with Carroll whilst not sacrificing what Suarez offers us. Can Carroll be our Cavani for Suarez?

I hope Kenny and whoever else at the club can answer this because I don't have a f**king clue to be honest.
« Last Edit: May 6, 2012, 01:32:09 pm by dernaroy »
i admireyour optimism but if you honestly believe we will finish even in the top 6 this year , then you my friend (im at pains to say this ) are deluded.

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #35 on: May 6, 2012, 01:28:17 pm »

Anyone criticising KD can fuck off, our football was more than decent, yes we need a stronger midfield but doing what we did with limited resources gives me faith.

Kenny has a responsibility too.

Offline The G in Gerrard

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #36 on: May 6, 2012, 01:31:09 pm »
Anyone criticising KD can fuck off, our football was more than decent, yes we need a stronger midfield but doing what we did with limited resources gives me faith.

And how does that attitude help as well?

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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #37 on: May 6, 2012, 01:32:31 pm »
I thought the team shape was right at the first whistle on paper at least.

Maxi scores goals against Chelsea so he wasnt picked. Dalglish needs to look at himself on that one.

Our left side with Enrique and Downing we looked awful.

Gerarrd played too deep because of Henderson and Spearing's fragility.

I really dont know what Henderson was bought for. We had 3 players in midfield who just arent good enough for us. Henderson, Downing, Spearing. I still think our defence is ok. Our attacking options need strengthening but without Lucas we are poor and the options are poor in midfield.

Carroll was good but its taken too long for that kind of attitude and performance.
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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #38 on: May 6, 2012, 01:33:12 pm »
I will write a bit more about the game once I get my head round it but to summarise, I am so dissapointed we threw it away in that fashion. We didn't look we wanted to win and that only changed when Andy Carroll game on. If we'd have gone at them for 90 minutes and lost 4-0 then at least we'd have had a go. Too many players looked out of thier depth and our tactics were wrong, although we probably played one of our strongest line ups available. I'm not too upset that we lost, it's just the manner in which we did. Sometimes games like this happen, but our whole season was riding on that 90 minutes of football, as it has been for a while, and we didn't show up until it was too late.
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Re: FA Cup Final Round Table. Chelsea 2 - 1 Liverpool
« Reply #39 on: May 6, 2012, 01:35:28 pm »
the biggest point I wanted to raise is how bad is that stadium announcer?

he's like a school disco DJ from the 70's, not an ounce of class, first we'll have Chelsea singning, then Liverpool , now do this , now do that - did he understand it was a football match ? - ffs - shut the fuck up - I must have said it half a dozen times

no comment on the half time entertainment? ay least that was 'football' related although I could have scored more with me privates  but the  pre match entertainment? Jesus H Christ.
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