Topic: FSG (*)

[Eeyore]

Tweets saying all sorts of nasty names to John Henry after we lose are pretty common. Personally I think it should be left out.

Definitely, it's is pathetic but it says far more about peoples use of social media than anything related to the Club, it's fans or FSG.

[Eeyore]

You thought we should make a £30m offer for a player with 386 minutes of league football in his career?

For me we should targeting outstanding talents earlier in their development like we did with Sterling.

[Billy The Kid]

For me we should targeting outstanding talents earlier in their development like we did with Sterling.

How do you know that we aren't currently doing that?

[ollick]

For me we should targeting outstanding talents earlier in their development like we did with Sterling.

Didn't work too well with the lad from Stoke

[El Lobo]

How do you know that we aren't currently doing that?

It is to be fair, we've seen that with some of the youngsters coming through this season.

[Eeyore]

How do you know that we aren't currently doing that?

When was the last time we went out and bought one of the outstanding players in their age group. For me there has been a conscious decision at the Club to target players later in their development because it is seen as a safer transfer model. 

[heylookitsjacob]

When was the last time we went out and bought one of the outstanding players in their age group. For me there has been a conscious decision at the Club to target players later in their development because it is seen as a safer transfer model.

Emre Can(21), Marko Grujic(20), Philippe Coutinho (22), Danny Ings (23), Divock Origi (20).

Approx. ages at purchase. I don't understand how this is different than what you are requesting? Do you want more of them signed? More success stories?

[Shaved Crossbar]

When was the last time we went out and bought one of the outstanding players in their age group. For me there has been a conscious decision at the Club to target players later in their development because it is seen as a safer transfer model.

Emeka Obi? Joe Gomez? Rhian Brewster?

[newterp]

You thought we should make a £30m offer for a player with 386 minutes of league football in his career?

it's mindboggling the things people come up with. blaming us for tabling an offer they now feel was too low for an 18yr old that barely featured.

[Eeyore]

Emre Can(21), Marko Grujic(20), Philippe Coutinho (22), Danny Ings (23), Divock Origi (20).

Approx. ages at purchase. I don't understand how this is different than what you are requesting? Do you want more of them signed? More success stories?

Emeka Obi? Joe Gomez? Rhian Brewster?

Coutinho was 15 when signed by Inter, Can was 16 when he was signed by Bayern as for the rest with the possible exception of Brewster how are they outstanding talents in their age group ?

[Eeyore]

it's mindboggling the things people come up with. blaming us for tabling an offer they now feel was too low for an 18yr old that barely featured.

The reality is that if you are going to sign players that have already been picked up by one of the teams who specialise in bringing through young talent then you are going to have to either tap them up or pay way over the odds.

[heylookitsjacob]

Coutinho was 15 when signed by Inter, Can was 16 when he was signed by Bayern as for the rest with the possible exception of Brewster how are they outstanding talents in their age group ?

Okay, so your argument is that 20-23 isn't young enough to sign them, they should have been signed younger? Younger and better than Coutinho and Can in their early twenties? I understand. Thanks for the clarification.

[Chris~]

Coutinho was 15 when signed by Inter, Can was 16 when he was signed by Bayern as for the rest with the possible exception of Brewster how are they outstanding talents in their age group ?

Gomez was playing Championship football at Brewsters age and got in to the team of the tournament at the euro u17s championship.

Signed Luis longstaff and dixon-bonner recentley , England u15 and u16 internationals. Signed with similair hype to Brewster.  Spent a fair bit on Grabara whos already training most weeks with the first team. 

[Eeyore]

Gomez was playing Championship football at Brewsters age and got in to the team of the tournament at the euro u17s championship.

Signed Luis longstaff and dixon-bonner recentley , England u15 and u16 internationals. Signed with similair hype to Brewster.  Spent a fair bit on Grabara whos already training most weeks with the first team. 

The reality is that you could sign the whole England team and you wouldn't get anywhere near challenging for trophies. We are at a stage were we have a pretty young strong first 11. To make the next step we have bring in real quality. Wait until those players have made the breakthrough and we will have to pay huge sums.

So you either do that, rely on your academy or recruit the biggest global talents. I am not talking about players with the potential to be good players but absolute global talents because that is the level we require to get us competing again.

[Shaved Crossbar]

Coutinho was 15 when signed by Inter, Can was 16 when he was signed by Bayern as for the rest with the possible exception of Brewster how are they outstanding talents in their age group ?

Joe Gomez was THE outstanding talent in his age group. Only injuries have put paid to that. It's pretty difficult to assess 15 year olds against each other but he debuted for Bury at 15. All three of the names I gave you are outstanding talents in their age group. You can't expect Sterlings and Ibes to fall off trees, but we definitely still take our fair share.

[Chris~]

The reality is that you could sign the whole England team and you wouldn't get anywhere near challenging for trophies. We are at a stage were we have a pretty young strong first 11. To make the next step we have bring in real quality. Wait until those players have made the breakthrough and we will have to pay huge sums.

So you either do that, rely on your academy or recruit the biggest global talents. I am not talking about players with the potential to be good players but absolute global talents because that is the level we require to get us competing again.

what.

You said we don't sign outstanding young talents like Sterling, so 14/15 year old kids, with the possible exception of Brewster. I've just given you a few names who were/are rated around the same level as those two were at a similarly young age. We literally just got banned for trying to sign some kid from Stoke, now none of us no how good he is, but you imagine given the trouble we went to try and get him he's probably at least a bit good for his age group.

Why then are you now talking to me about us having to sign the best global talents? Do you mean at academy level? Because please tell me where that crystal ball is that tells you which 13-15 year olds are sure certain to be superstars. Every team is going to have more misses than hits with signing young players if you're expectation is basically be good enough to start weekly for us. Here's a start with another young, american player Dortmund signed who seems to be nowhere near their first team http://www.soccerwire.com/news/youth-star-korrio-player-to-watch-junior-flores-signs-with-borussia-dortmund/ Was probably rated pretty highly at 16.

[CraigDS]

Don't sign talents like We did Sterling anymore.

Someone lists a handful of English examples where we have.

No, no, no. English don't count.

Flipity flop.

[Brian Blessed]

Still passing opinion of as fact I see Eel.

[Eeyore]

Don't sign talents like We did Sterling anymore.

Someone lists a handful of English examples where we have.

No, no, no. English don't count.

Flipity flop.

I didn't say English didn't count though did I Craig.

What I said is that you could sign the whole England team and you wouldn't be able to compete. You have to cast the net further and look at the absolute best talent available. In his teens Sterling stuck out like a sore thumb. He was head and shoulders above everyone else on the pitch. Signing those kind of players is completely different to stacking up a load of good prospects and hoping they kick on.

This conversation started over Pulisic and an assertion that I made that you either pay Dortmund a stupid fee now or sign him earlier in his development the way Dortmund did. Are you seriously disagreeing with that ?

[Eeyore]

Except no one on this forum goes out of their way as much as me to preface what I say with terms that indicate what I say is my opinion.

[Chris~]

I didn't say English didn't count though did I Craig.

What I said is that you could sign the whole England team and you wouldn't be able to compete. You have to cast the net further and look at the absolute best talent available. In his teens Sterling stuck out like a sore thumb. He was head and shoulders above everyone else on the pitch. Signing those kind of players is completely different to stacking up a load of good prospects and hoping they kick on.

This conversation started over Pulisic and an assertion that I made that you either pay Dortmund a stupid fee now or sign him earlier in his development the way Dortmund did. Are you seriously disagreeing with that ?

Do you mean Sterling at 14/15 when we signed him or 18/19 when he broke through and was establishing himself? Because again, it's still not easy to tell who will definitely make it from 14/15 year old's no matter how much they stand out. You're basically ignoring the example I gave as they've not even got out of youth football yet. They might be good, they might not, but we're still targeting outstanding youth players which you suggested we didn't. Signing foreign players at 16 and under and having them come in and be an outstanding talent is even more rare than signing young English players and having them break through as an outstanding talent. Who was the last one in England, Fabregas, technically Pogba I guess if you want? I'm probably missing someone obvious, but clubs spend a fortune trying to find these players and it's not as easy as you seem to be suggesting. Even getting someone and them being as successful as Canos is rare. I'm not sure how you want to judge 'outstanding' or the best talent available for under 16s either to be honest, how are you judging it?

[newterp]

The reality is that if you are going to sign players that have already been picked up by one of the teams who specialise in bringing through young talent then you are going to have to either tap them up or pay way over the odds.

you love saying "the reality is....." in response to numerous posters and to be fair it is ONE reality - namely the one you want to believe to fit your agenda.

[Billy The Kid]

Except no one on this forum goes out of their way as much as me to preface what I say with terms that indicate what I say is my opinion.

It's all fine and well having an opinion Al. It's just that your opinions are all over the place.

The reality is that you could sign the whole England team and you wouldn't get anywhere near challenging for trophies. We are at a stage were we have a pretty young strong first 11. To make the next step we have bring in real quality. Wait until those players have made the breakthrough and we will have to pay huge sums.

^^^ That's not "reality" Al. That's just another one of your said opinions, that is so all over the place, that I already know, that if I try to respond to it, then you'll just pull the debate off on another tangent. Debating you is like trying to play whack a mole. There's no knowing where to begin with you

[DangerScouse]

you love saying "the reality is....." in response to numerous posters and to be fair it is ONE reality - namely the one you want to believe to fit your agenda.

Why not attempt to address the point he's made rather than aim a petty dig?

[newterp]

Why not attempt to address the point he's made rather than aim a petty dig?

what would I address? I've already stated my point - which is why are people going nuts about the amount we offered then - now that he's exploded? He jumped in with a different answer. (and other people have already answered or pointed out the talent we get that is young and early in the stage).

[SwordInYourGut]

This conversation started over Pulisic and an assertion that I made that you either pay Dortmund a stupid fee now or sign him earlier in his development the way Dortmund did. Are you seriously disagreeing with that ?

Maybe we will next summer. There was no way of knowing last summer if Pulisic was an exceptional talent or just another "good" talent. You can't chance £30m on that. Its a lot clearer after his showings this year that Pulisic is an exceptional talent. Nobody was saying last summer we should be paying more for Pulisic. If anything, there was some outrage that we were willing to pay £13m for a player with as good as zero first team experience.

[Chris~]

Also don't think we even need to sign the whole England team to challenge for trophies. Probably 6 at most.

[SwordInYourGut]

Btw Lazar Markovic was an example of us just paying the huge fee to bring in top talent within a particular age group. We definitely do this whenever we can.

[So… Howard Philips]

Btw Lazar Markovic was an example of us just paying the huge fee to bring in top talent within a particular age group. We definitely do this whenever we can.

And this shows the risks involved. Not a criticism of Lazar, just hasn't worked out.

[NaivetyinBlack]

Some pretty damning quotes by Torres and the 2010 year in Simon Hughes' interview with him. Reminds me of why I loved him so much. Rips G&H and Comolli to shreds. Says he felt let down by Kenny the most.

[Machae]

I think this thread is a perfect microcosm of the liverpool fan and shows why this game is so completely and utterly results based...

Pretty sure the thread was locked

[Graham Smith]

I think this thread is actually more about the soul of the Club.

What is best for LFC, the Club, should be first and foremost in any decision made by any owner, and their own financial interests should not be paramount - any decision made by owners should be looked at through the prism of what is best of LFC.

And in the current environment there is enough wealth being created, and to be created to satisfy anyone not greedy.

If you adopt that approach then a perspective on any owner becomes clearer and should be the yardstick any owner is judged by along with the actual results/trophies that have been achieved.

The minutae of who is employed in what role, who said what and who has what agenda within the Club becomes moot - as every decision can be judged upon the test 'What is best for LFC' and 'What have we won this year' and not some other unmeasuarable metric about young players, contracts, salaries and commercial success.

[joekim87]

The big money put into the Academy is surely proof we are heading in that direction no?

[Eeyore]

Some pretty damning quotes by Torres and the 2010 year in Simon Hughes' interview with him. Reminds me of why I loved him so much. Rips G&H and Comolli to shreds. Says he felt let down by Kenny the most.

Amazing how you missed the bit about FSG negotiating with Chelsea and then throwing Torres under the bus.

[diegoLFC7]

Coutinho was 15 when signed by Inter, Can was 16 when he was signed by Bayern as for the rest with the possible exception of Brewster how are they outstanding talents in their age group ?

Coutinho was 18 when he was signed by Inter, and Emre Can was 17.

[rickardinho1]

There are loads of gems last few seasons, Kante, Keita, van Dijk, Mane (when he moved to Southampton), yes there is a real buzz created when the club do sign a superstar, but I'm much more satisfied when the club unearths a class act for peanuts (Hyypia) or even better a player comes through the ranks to be top class (Fowler, Owen, Gerrard, McManaman or Carragher).

Jurgen focuses on the latter rather than the former.

As far as signing class players for peanuts, Matip on a free has to be up there, though perhaps not entirely unknown. A couple of years from now Gomez for £3.5m and Grujic for £4.25m might look like absolute steals as well... and so too might Karius £4.7m if he fulfills his potential (23 is still very young for a goalkeeper).

And don't forget about Allan at £500k. One more year out on loan and he'll probably come back and be a nice little feisty addition to midfield.

Granted, most of those aren't exactly "unearthed", but does that really happen anymore these days when everyone and their dog knows about Fulham's 16 year old leftback?

As far as players coming through, it seems as if the academy is finally producing some quality players again (especially Woodburn, Wilson, and Trent) - with Trent probably the most likely to be a regular fixture in the first team next season (as backup RB).

[rickardinho1]

Emre Can(21), Marko Grujic(20), Philippe Coutinho (22), Danny Ings (23), Divock Origi (20).

Approx. ages at purchase. I don't understand how this is different than what you are requesting? Do you want more of them signed? More success stories?

Off the top of my head there's also Chirivella (15) for £1.96m from Valencia, Juanma (19), Allan (18), Gomez (18), and Grabara (16) who are/were highly rated.

[Wingman]

When was the last time we went out and bought one of the outstanding players in their age group. For me there has been a conscious decision at the Club to target players later in their development because it is seen as a safer transfer model. 

That's rather vague. Which age groups? And what age are you classing as "later in at their development"?

[5yearplan]

Seems to me that if we paid 90 million for Pogba people would bitch and moan F.S.G were wasting money and if we buy an up and coming player for 5 million F.S.G have no ambition

I have asked this before but i dont think I got an answer from anybody, What should F.S.G  be doing?, and if the answer is make better decisions about whatever the particular thing is you are bitching about, I have a question for you.
If you're so smart why aren't you rich?

My point being, that everybody makes good and poor decisions, for example buying Coutinho for 8.5 million was a good decision as was Suarez for 22 million, Sturridge for 12 million didn't suck either, but MarKovic for 20 million looks like wasted money.

The Mancs sold Pogba and then payed 90 million to get him back, not even sure which is the bad decision there (maybe both) and they have people who are so called football people and a massive network of scouts and yet still make dubious decisions.

The truth is as in all poor debates, some people decide on a conclusion and then twist the facts to suit that conclusion

[rickardinho1]

Seems to me that if we paid 90 million for Pogba people would bitch and moan F.S.G were wasting money and if we buy an up and coming player for 5 million F.S.G have no ambition

I have asked this before but i dont think I got an answer from anybody, What should F.S.G  be doing?, and if the answer is make better decisions about whatever the particular thing is you are bitching about, I have a question for you.
If you're so smart why aren't you rich?

My point being, that everybody makes good and poor decisions, for example buying Coutinho for 8.5 million was a good decision as was Suarez for 22 million, Sturridge for 12 million didn't suck either, but MarKovic for 20 million looks like wasted money.

The Mancs sold Pogba and then payed 90 million to get him back, not even sure which is the bad decision there (maybe both) and they have people who are so called football people and a massive network of scouts and yet still make dubious decisions.

The truth is as in all poor debates, some people decide on a conclusion and then twist the facts to suit that conclusion

Markovic in hindsight looks like wasted money, but I wouldn't necessarily class it as a terrible decision (at the time), given that he was one of the top-rated young players in Europe then, and since he's still very young so most of that transfer value is still retained. Furthermore, he was never put on huge wages so his contract isn't keeping other clubs from taking him on.

The club might make a small loss on him, but it was worth the risk given the potential upside (which might still come good, you never know... he's still only 23).

An example of a bad decision would be if you spend money on an older player and give them huge wages, only to find out that they aren't worth it and you can't get rid of him. (eg. Joe Cole, Balotelli, etc)