Topic: FSG (*)

[Johnny Foreigner]

Cracking post Daws ! Very Swiss of you.

Just one observation, if I may.

But that is not what Al and some others here have done. They don't put FSG under the microscope. They are inherently biased about it. In Al's own words, he's myopic with all things FSG. Skepticism is healthy, suspicion is not. Questions are healthy. Accusations are not.

By all means, find fault with FSG. But at least have the decency to be honest and call it an opinion than dress it up as fact. Or the anti FSG side is, (going back to your analogy) little different than the Republicans. Always deal with spin, hardly mention facts, strike down anything positive as diversionary or tangential, etc. So yes, while you have a point saying opinions like Al555's are essential, I'd just like to add an '*' to them, with a disclaimer saying 'do not take them as fact'. Fans are essentially gullible.

Cracking post Daws ! Very Swiss of you.

Just one observation, if I may.

But that is not what Al and some others here have done. They don't put FSG under the microscope. They are inherently biased about it. In Al's own words, he's myopic with all things FSG. Skepticism is healthy, suspicion is not. Questions are healthy. Accusations are not.

By all means, find fault with FSG. But at least have the decency to be honest and call it an opinion than dress it up as fact. Or the anti FSG side is, (going back to your analogy) little different than the Republicans. Always deal with spin, hardly mention facts, strike down anything positive as diversionary or tangential, etc. So yes, while you have a point saying opinions like Al555's are essential, I'd just like to add an '*' to them, with a disclaimer saying 'do not take them as fact'. Fans are essentially gullible.
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Cracking post Daws ! Very Swiss of you.

Just one observation, if I may.

But that is not what Al and some others here have done. They don't put FSG under the microscope. They are inherently biased about it. In Al's own words, he's myopic with all things FSG. Skepticism is healthy, suspicion is not. Questions are healthy. Accusations are not.

By all means, find fault with FSG. But at least have the decency to be honest and call it an opinion than dress it up as fact. Or the anti FSG side is, (going back to your analogy) little different than the Republicans. Always deal with spin, hardly mention facts, strike down anything positive as diversionary or tangential, etc. So yes, while you have a point saying opinions like Al555's are essential, I'd just like to add an '*' to them, with a disclaimer saying 'do not take them as fact'. Fans are essentially gullible.

to classify people that are critical/sceptical to FSG as little different than republicans is pretty Good. They are all little thatcherites across the pond wouldnt you say

[CallumLFC]

Watching Pulisic earlier, he looked like a £30m talent. Did we seriously make a £13m bid for him last summer?

FSG really do take the piss with their low-balling.

[ncred]

Watching Pulisic earlier, he looked like a £30m talent. Did we seriously make a £13m bid for him last summer?

FSG really do take the piss with their low-balling.

only in hindsight can you really say this.  He didn't play much last year and was on a shorter contract (re-signed with Dortmund in January of this year)

[killer-heels]

only in hindsight can you really say this.  He didn't play much last year and was on a shorter contract (re-signed with Dortmund in January of this year)

Pulisic was considered a massive talent by the end of that season for people like me who hardly watches european football, so he was probably well known in Germany. Sane went for almost £40m as well so there were conparables.

It always seemed bizarre why we put in such a low bid, if infact it was true. If we were waiting for his contract to run down then I hope to god we dont play that long term thing again in the future because big talents dont hang around waiting for a club like us.

[Gods_Left_Boot]

Pulisic was considered a massive talent by the end of that season for people like me who hardly watches european football, so he was probably well known in Germany. Sane went for almost £40m as well so there were conparables.

It always seemed bizarre why we put in such a low bid, if infact it was true. If we were waiting for his contract to run down then I hope to god we dont play that long term thing again in the future because big talents dont hang around waiting for a club like us.

Prior to this season Pulisic had 12 appearances (3 starts) in all competitions, with 2 goals. Also, he was not on a long term deal. Last season Sané was a full starter (42 appearances and 9 goals in all competitions) for Schalke and had already had 15 appearances (7 starts) and 4 goals (including one in the CL against Real Madrid) in 14/15. They could hardly be considered at the same stage of development or at least of involvement with the senior team.

[ncred]

Pulisic was considered a massive talent by the end of that season for people like me who hardly watches european football, so he was probably well known in Germany. Sane went for almost £40m as well so there were conparables.

It always seemed bizarre why we put in such a low bid, if infact it was true. If we were waiting for his contract to run down then I hope to god we dont play that long term thing again in the future because big talents dont hang around waiting for a club like us.

he was massively hyped by some partially because he is an American. 
source:  am an American who massively hypes him but objectively knows he isn't on the level of some other prospects his age

[killer-heels]

Prior to this season Pulisic had 12 appearances (3 starts) in all competitions, with 2 goals. Also, he was not on a long term deal. Last season Sané was a full starter (42 appearances and 9 goals in all competitions) for Schalke and had already had 15 appearances (7 starts) and 4 goals (including one in the CL against Real Madrid) in 14/15. They could hardly be considered at the same stage of development or at least of involvement with the senior team.

Yes thats fair enough but surely £13m seemed a lowball bid for a player who was highly rated? Klopp would know better than anyone how highly rated Pulisic was.

Of course he may have thought thats all he is worth.

[Bob Sacamano]

Yes thats fair enough but surely £13m seemed a lowball bid for a player who was highly rated? Klopp would know better than anyone how highly rated Pulisic was.

Of course he may have thought thats all he is worth.

That's not a bad starting offer given the contract situation and his stage of development.

But after this season and a new contract he's worth 40 million minimum in this market.

[killer-heels]

That's not a bad starting offer given the contract situation and his stage of development.

But after this season and a new contract he's worth 40 million minimum in this market.

I think the question is whether we were ever really going to get a player like that and from a club like that by offering what he is supposedly 'worth'? These players come with a premium.

[Bob Sacamano]

I think the question is whether we were ever really going to get a player like that and from a club like that by offering what he is supposedly 'worth'? These players come with a premium.

Depends if he was agitating to leave, or thought he would fit in better with Klopp, or if we were offering him a huge raise. If the club figured Pulisic would jump ship at the end of his contract, then they'd probably be willing to entertain offers.

If he was settled and happy there then no, we were never going to get him unless we offered a Martial-like transfer fee and astronomical wages.

In short, it was worth a punt. Sometimes it doesn't work out.

[Diomedieocre]

If conte can get a tune out of victor moses what the hell is every fucker arguing about?..we have jurgen klopp.

[mickeydocs]

But that is not what Al and some others here have done. They don't put FSG under the microscope. They are inherently biased about it. In Al's own words, he's myopic with all things FSG. Skepticism is healthy, suspicion is not. Questions are healthy. Accusations are not.
 

If you read through Al's posts you will see he has complimented FSG on a couple of matters.
What he questions is their knowledge of how to run a football club and their ambition for the club.

[Eeyore]

Cracking post Daws ! Very Swiss of you.

Just one observation, if I may.

But that is not what Al and some others here have done. They don't put FSG under the microscope. They are inherently biased about it. In Al's own words, he's myopic with all things FSG. Skepticism is healthy, suspicion is not. Questions are healthy. Accusations are not.

By all means, find fault with FSG. But at least have the decency to be honest and call it an opinion than dress it up as fact. Or the anti FSG side is, (going back to your analogy) little different than the Republicans. Always deal with spin, hardly mention facts, strike down anything positive as diversionary or tangential, etc. So yes, while you have a point saying opinions like Al555's are essential, I'd just like to add an '*' to them, with a disclaimer saying 'do not take them as fact'. Fans are essentially gullible.

Your hypocrisy is off the scale mate. If anyone's posts need a disclaimer it's yours.

How does me admitting that I can be myopic at times regarding FSG suddenly be turned into being myopic with all things FSG. Especially when you continually accuse me of being a liar.

I have tried to keep away from the thread because of the continual personal attacks but sadly when I am not even posting you just can't help yourself.

So again if you have a problem with any opinions I post then fine just leave out the personal stuff. Attack the post not the poster.

[flashman]

Al is clearly a knowledgeable chap and is (for the most part) polite in his posts. He usually includes sources and evidence to back up his points.

I don't agree with everything he says, but he's someone in a pub you could have an interesting chat with.

The trouble with RAWK is there are too many bellends that attack the poster rather than the post.

We saw it with phase of play, who provided some really good insight and was driven off the forum by a small number of idiots.

[Pistolero]

Your hypocrisy is off the scale mate. If anyone's posts need a disclaimer it's yours.

How does me admitting that I can be myopic at times regarding FSG suddenly be turned into being myopic with all things FSG. Especially when you continually accuse me of being a liar.

I have tried to keep away from the thread because of the continual personal attacks but sadly when I am not even posting you just can't help yourself.

So again if you have a problem with any opinions I post then fine just leave out the personal stuff. Attack the post not the poster.

as I said the other day Al, there's plenty on here who appreciate your vigilance so ignore the shitstirrers and their attempts to ridicule / silence you and keep posting mate

[jambutty]

Al is a committed Red, anyone could recognize that.  No one could or imo is trying to silence him.  They are, like him, arguing their truths.

He and a few others have a negative view of FSG.  Some have a negative view of Americans.  Some have a negative view of capitalists.  Some have a negative view of 'hedge fund' managers.

Some think FSG hasn't done such a bad job dealing with a few of our cantankerous, post dynastic, frustrated, over expectant (read entitled if you like) supporters.

Smoth is doing his job.

[Bullan]

Your hypocrisy is off the scale mate. If anyone's posts need a disclaimer it's yours.

How does me admitting that I can be myopic at times regarding FSG suddenly be turned into being myopic with all things FSG. Especially when you continually accuse me of being a liar.

I have tried to keep away from the thread because of the continual personal attacks but sadly when I am not even posting you just can't help yourself.

So again if you have a problem with any opinions I post then fine just leave out the personal stuff. Attack the post not the poster.

Al, i never get involved in any of these discussions as I don't feel like i've earned the right too.

What I will say is this though.

I think you have a valid opinion and I agree to some extent that FSG has botched many a thing up.
We should employ proper football people at the club and the owners have not "yet" shown us that they have learnt from their mistakes.
There has been much dithering and change of policy/priorities with them and its easy to see why someone could think we have not made any progress.

However, things seem to be moving in the right direction and I have to ask why you cant see that?

Its clear to me that people like you and KinKi clearly care as much if not more about this club , but I just don't get why you are being so militant about the owners?

I think that no matter which owners we have , we would always need to have people like you holding them to account but at the same time looking from the outside in, I cant help thinking that FSG ran over your cat.

We should have competency and accountability at the club, but I cant help thinking you'd never accept any owners no matter what and that makes it very hard to debate with you.

So im going to ask anyway, would you be happy with any owners at all?

[TepidT2O]

Al is clearly a knowledgeable chap and is (for the most part) polite in his posts. He usually includes sources and evidence to back up his points.

I don't agree with everything he says, but he's someone in a pub you could have an interesting chat with.

The trouble with RAWK is there are too many bellends that attack the poster rather than the post.

We saw it with phase of play, who provided some really good insight and was driven off the forum by a small number of idiots.

You'd end up leaving the pub and jumping off a bridge afterwards mind...

[Bullan]

You'd end up leaving the pub and jumping off a bridge afterwards mind...

Go full everton you mean?

[mickeydocs]

as I said the other day Al, there's plenty on here who appreciate your vigilance so ignore the shitstirrers and their attempts to ridicule / silence you and keep posting mate

Amen to that - please keep up the vigilance Al!

[mickeydocs]

He and a few others have a negative view of FSG.  Some have a negative view of Americans.  Some have a negative view of capitalists.  Some have a negative view of 'hedge fund' managers.
Some think FSG hasn't done such a bad job dealing with a few of our cantankerous, post dynastic, frustrated, over expectant (read entitled if you like) supporters.

Many of us work in ultra capitalist environments - I certainly do, although I do admit that I have socialist sympathies and have little time for the way the US treats it's human capital.

FSG has gotten far too much wrong for Liverpool fans to not be sceptical. They purchased our great club, one of the greatest clubs on the planet ffs, on the cheap.
We are used to greatness and with the size of the club and its fanbase have a chance to be great again.

They got into football at a time when football is riding the crest of a wave.
Yet what have they achieved?
Our turnover has increased sharply, but not more sharply than our main rivals.
We have failed to compete at the top end of the league. Have shown very little ambition in the transfer market and have botched their DOF and Managerial appointments.
Finally they have got a top manager. Now they need to back him. Time to show us if they have the money to back up their words that they can compete.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Many of us work in ultra capitalist environments - I certainly do, although I do admit that I have socialist sympathies and have little time for the way the US treats it's human capital.

FSG has gotten far too much wrong for Liverpool fans to not be sceptical. They purchased our great club, one of the greatest clubs on the planet ffs, on the cheap.
We are used to greatness and with the size of the club and its fanbase have a chance to be great again.

They got into football at a time when football is riding the crest of a wave.
Yet what have they achieved?
Our turnover has increased sharply, but not more sharply than our main rivals.
We have failed to compete at the top end of the league. Have shown very little ambition in the transfer market and have botched their DOF and Managerial appointments.
Finally they have got a top manager. Now they need to back him. Time to show us if they have the money to back up their words that they can compete.

So basically, you want owners who would put a lot of money into the club. I can understand that. By the way, how many top clubs in the World have such owners? Because the likes of Real Madrid, Bayern Munich or Barcelona certainly don't have them.

[mickeydocs]

So basically, you want owners who would put a lot of money into the club. I can understand that. By the way, how many top clubs in the World have such owners? Because the likes of Real Madrid, Bayern Munich or Barcelona certainly don't have them.

I would like the owners to invest well to help us compete.
Great clubs need great players, both from a sporting and marketing perspective. Under FSG we have sold our best players, although in truth this began under H&G.
To be perceived as an elite club we need to behave like an elite club. Under FSG we have behaved like a top ten club and nothing more.
AS the song goes we are Liverpool. Very, very few clubs have our reach and untapped potential.

[PeterTheRed ...]

I would like the owners to invest well to help us compete.
Great clubs need great players, both from a sporting and marketing perspective. Under FSG we have sold our best players, although in truth this began under H&G.
To be perceived as an elite club we need to behave like an elite club. Under FSG we have behaved like a top ten club and nothing more.
AS the song goes we are Liverpool. Very, very few clubs have our reach and untapped potential.

You still haven't answered my question.

So basically, you want owners who would put a lot of money into the club. I can understand that. By the way, how many top clubs in the World have such owners? Because the likes of Real Madrid, Bayern Munich or Barcelona certainly don't have them.

[mickeydocs]

You still haven't answered my question.

To answer your question I want owners with ambiti
on to take this club back to the very top where it belongs!

No point answering your question if you are suggesting Real, Bayern and Barca don't have owners that invest heavily in their squad (all three have elements of supporter ownership!).
All three clubs have huge stadia and invest in the very top tier of players: Real (Ronaldo/Bale); Barca (Suarez/Neymar); Bayern (Hummels/Sanches).

[PeterTheRed ...]

To answer your question I want owners with ambiti
on to take this club back to the very top where it belongs!

No point answering your question if you are suggesting Real, Bayern and Barca don't have owners that invest heavily in their squad (all three have elements of supporter ownership!).
All three clubs have huge stadia and invest in the very top tier of players: Real (Ronaldo/Bale); Barca (Suarez/Neymar); Bayern (Hummels/Sanches).

So, you understand that their power as clubs was built, not purchased?

[rscanderlech]

Who is the journalist reporting that Klopp will have £200m to spend this next window? Is it reliable news?

[El Lobo]

Who is the journalist reporting that Klopp will have £200m to spend this next window? Is it reliable news?

Think it was in the Mirror or something, didn't really seem to be a legit 'we've been told Liverpool will spend £200 million this summer' but rather 'this is what we think Liverpool need and this is how much they'll cost along with the money they bring in from players they sell'

[mc_red22]

Who is the journalist reporting that Klopp will have £200m to spend this next window? Is it reliable news?

Think it was in the Mirror or something, didn't really seem to be a legit 'we've been told Liverpool will spend £200 million this summer' but rather 'this is what we think Liverpool need and this is how much they'll cost along with the money they bring in from players they sell'

It was Ian Doyle from the Echo.

[rscanderlech]

It was Ian Doyle from the Echo.

Thanks. I see that he is basing it on speculation rather than having received something from club sources... hopefully it is true.

[heylookitsjacob]

I think this thread is a perfect microcosm of the liverpool fan and shows why this game is so completely and utterly results based. There is a three day gap between my post and the last post made in this conversation (we've won twice recently).

Do you know the last time there was even a day break between posts in this thread? When we beat Everton on April 1st. Since we tied with Bournemouth on April 5th (and actually starting a day before) there have been hundreds and hundreds of posts (I think ~16 pages worth).

I'm not sure if I have a point here, other than maybe people should realize that recent results may be having a larger effect on your mind than you might think. Or maybe people use recent defeats to go on their respective favorite topics for improvement which may not get as much spotlight if the results are going our way?

I don't know, it just seems weird, but maybe that's just me?

[El Lobo]

Nah its not weird at all, its pretty obvious really and not really a big deal. People look all round for excuses when we lost, its pretty obvious some of that ire will go towards the owners.

Think the more annoying thing is the select few posters, and there aren't that many, who seek to push every single negative thing that happens at the club towards the owners. Like when we lost in the FA Cup it was purely because FSG hadn't backed the manager, nothing to do with tactics or lack of motivation or just signing the wrong players.

[ollick]

Some stupid account on Twitter sending abuse to Henry's missus on Twitter after the last win, good to see that she called him up on it.

[heylookitsjacob]

Nah its not weird at all, its pretty obvious really and not really a big deal.

For me it's kind of a big deal because it gives me perspective on how I should actually be approaching or valuing the discussion. If this is a thread for whining when we lose compared to a thread about valid improvements to the hierarchy and management of the club, then I might just give up on this thread entirely.

But again, that's just me.

[stockdam]

Watching Pulisic earlier, he looked like a £30m talent. Did we seriously make a £13m bid for him last summer?

FSG really do take the piss with their low-balling.

Like getting Coutinho for £8.5 million? We have had to be careful in the transfer market......we have over-paid for some players and so it's not unreasonable to try to get value for money. We aren't Chelsea or Utd and even though we have lots more money than other teams, we have to be careful.

I don't mind spending big for established stars but with others we will have to be a bit more careful.

We paid about £30M for Firmino and that was a risk. He's now turned out to be well worth the money but there have been others who we had to sell on at a loss.

In the end Klopp will decide what he believes to be value. I think he would prefer to stretch his money by getting a few more Coutinhos than spending lots more on a Özil. Also he knows where he needs to strengthen and where he can take a punt on a youngster who may or may not develop.

[Flaccido Dongingo]

There are loads of gems last few seasons, Kante, Keita, van Dijk, Mane (when he moved to Southampton), yes there is a real buzz created when the club do sign a superstar, but I'm much more satisfied when the club unearths a class act for peanuts (Hyypia) or even better a player comes through the ranks to be top class (Fowler, Owen, Gerrard, McManaman or Carragher).

Jurgen focuses on the latter rather than the former.

[JohnSullie]

agree flac

[SwordInYourGut]

Watching Pulisic earlier, he looked like a £30m talent. Did we seriously make a £13m bid for him last summer?

FSG really do take the piss with their low-balling.

You thought we should make a £30m offer for a player with 386 minutes of league football in his career?

[ToneLa]

Some stupid account on Twitter sending abuse to Henry's missus on Twitter after the last win, good to see that she called him up on it.

Tweets saying all sorts of nasty names to John Henry after we lose are pretty common. Personally I think it should be left out.

[Eeyore]

I think this thread is a perfect microcosm of the liverpool fan and shows why this game is so completely and utterly results based. There is a three day gap between my post and the last post made in this conversation (we've won twice recently).

Do you know the last time there was even a day break between posts in this thread? When we beat Everton on April 1st. Since we tied with Bournemouth on April 5th (and actually starting a day before) there have been hundreds and hundreds of posts (I think ~16 pages worth).

I'm not sure if I have a point here, other than maybe people should realize that recent results may be having a larger effect on your mind than you might think. Or maybe people use recent defeats to go on their respective favorite topics for improvement which may not get as much spotlight if the results are going our way?

I don't know, it just seems weird, but maybe that's just me?

So the posts started a day before the Bournemouth game but are results based ?

Nah its not weird at all, its pretty obvious really and not really a big deal. People look all round for excuses when we lost, its pretty obvious some of that ire will go towards the owners.

Think the more annoying thing is the select few posters, and there aren't that many, who seek to push every single negative thing that happens at the club towards the owners. Like when we lost in the FA Cup it was purely because FSG hadn't backed the manager, nothing to do with tactics or lack of motivation or just signing the wrong players.

Still passing opinion of as fact I see Eel.

Regarding the team played in the FA Cup games, come off it mate right from the summer there were plenty of posters stating their opinion that the squad simply wasn't deep enough when we were going to have to play two games a week. There were plenty of posters stating their opinion that we would struggle around the turn of the year due to the fixture congestion and the loss of Mane.

So it's not people having a knee jerk reaction to a run of defeats or individual results it's a consistent opinion subsequently borne out by the results. To be honest mate for me that is much preferable to your pathetic attempts to throw the manager and the players under the bus in a pretty futile attempt to defend FSG.

At the moment we are having long rests between games and the results are much better that doesn't mean we didn't waste an absolutely golden opportunity this season, or that we were right to come into this season with a shallow badly balanced squad.

For me it's kind of a big deal because it gives me perspective on how I should actually be approaching or valuing the discussion. If this is a thread for whining when we lose compared to a thread about valid improvements to the hierarchy and management of the club, then I might just give up on this thread entirely.

But again, that's just me.

Come on how can you say it is a thread for whining about defeats and then use an example of a spike in posts that started around a week before the Bournemouth draw. For me I don't bother posting in here anymore because the basic retort to any criticism of the manager is to cherry pick parts of your post and look to abuse you or the well thought out response of wait till the summer.

Personally I am sick to death of us going into seasons with a squad that simply isn't fit for purpose and throwing away golden opportunities.