Topic: Lionel Messi

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Maradona's stats at the '86 WC - 3 assists vs South Korea, a goal against Italy, an assist vs Bulgaria, 2 goals vs England and Belgium and another assist in the final. And he had also a wrongfully disallowed goal vs Uruguay and hit the crossbar multiple times across all 7 games. He dragged Argentina to the title on his own making a vital contribution in every game.  So yeah, a single player can win you the world cup.

I still think you'll find there were ten other humans on his team.

Also, since the late 90s even shit teams have been far better set up defensively. It's one thing to say 'ah well, defenders used to hack Maradona down', yeah but they couldn't set up for shit.

The old 'defenders used to get away with murder' bollocks, did you not watch the game yesterday? Messi scored his first with his mouth tampon in after getting elbowed in the grid, and he also got hacked down at least three times including a leg breaker by Ramos that saw him sent off. But yeah it's all soft these days and they have it dead easy...

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Oh and in case child in time forgot, one of those goals against England was a handball anyway...

[Redcap]

It's laughable people say he hasn't turned up in international tournaments too, he can't do everything himself.

Yeah, he has actually made the final of a World Cup. Plus the finals of what.. 3 Copas? It's incredible that with all that he's achieved at club level, there are still people that reckon.. nah, because he hasn't won that ONE extra game, he can't be in the running for greatest of all time. Absurd.

[puroresu_kid]

Yeah, he has actually made the final of a World Cup. Plus the finals of what.. 3 Copas? It's incredible that with all that he's achieved at club level, there are still people that reckon.. nah, because he hasn't won that ONE extra game, he can't be in the running for greatest of all time. Absurd.

Its pretty silly.  An incredible player who shouldn't be dragged down by such craziness.

[Klippity Klopp]

The old 'defenders used to get away with murder' bollocks, did you not watch the game yesterday? Messi scored his first with his mouth tampon in after getting elbowed in the grid, and he also got hacked down at least three times including a leg breaker by Ramos that saw him sent off. But yeah it's all soft these days and they have it dead easy...

It is softer, I don't think that is even debatable really.

That is not taking anything away from Messi.

[Gerry Attrick]

The Champions League is far harder to win than the World Cup in my opinion.

[child-in-time]

I still think you'll find there were ten other humans on his team.

Take Maradona out of that team and they wouldnt win the tournament.

The old 'defenders used to get away with murder' bollocks, did you not watch the game yesterday? Messi scored his first with his mouth tampon in after getting elbowed in the grid, and he also got hacked down at least three times including a leg breaker by Ramos that saw him sent off. But yeah it's all soft these days and they have it dead easy...

Speaking of horrible tackles, Ramos wouldnt have been sent off in the old days for it. In fact Maradona had his ankle broken intentionally and suffered much, much worse tackles than you will see nowadays.

[Klippity Klopp]

Ramos wouldnt have been sent off in the old days for it.

This is true.

[J_Kopite]

Best of all time.

[paulrazor]

it would be sad if he retires without winning a world cup.

I dont buy in that Maradona won a world cup on his own. As others have posted, the likes of Burrachaga and Valdano deserve immense credit for their part. They wouldnt have done it without him but to say he won it on his own is nonsense. Probably the most influential performance of any player in a world cup.

Messi would still be the greatest for me if he doesnt win one. His goal ratio and consistency since about 2007 is remarkable. As the commentator said last night he hasnt peaked, he has just been at the same unbelievable level for so long.

[Corkboy]

So yeah, a single player can win you the world cup.

The more you say this, the dumber you sound.

[lionel_messias]

it would be sad if he retires without winning a world cup.

Really, why?

The World Cup is a shit rag of a tournament. Russia and Qatar say hello, to mobsters in the corporate boxes.

[child-in-time]

The more you say this, the dumber you sound.

Okay smarty.

[paulrazor]

Really, why?

The World Cup is a shit rag of a tournament. Russia and Qatar say hello, to mobsters in the corporate boxes.

There is more to the world cup than shitty dodgy hosts

[child-in-time]

Really, why?

The World Cup is a shit rag of a tournament. Russia and Qatar say hello, to mobsters in the corporate boxes.

Yeah so why win the CL, the UEFA is corrupt af, why win anything at all, why play football, etc, etc.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Really, why?

The World Cup is a shit rag of a tournament. Russia and Qatar say hello, to mobsters in the corporate boxes.

Unless you're a part of the tiny percentage of the worlds population who hate the nation that represents them (e.g. Scousers, Catalans, Basques, etc), the World Cup is the ultimate, most prestigious tournament in football. Messi, a proud Argentine, would love to win it more than anything. He's just not been able to.

[Samie]

Messi said he'd swap a few World Player of the Year trophies for a World Cup win. So there's that. 

[greyfade]

GOAT.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Take Maradona out of that team and they wouldnt win the tournament.

Take Messi out of Argentina and they wouldn't have made a single final since the time he started playing for them

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Take Maradona out of that team and they wouldnt win the tournament.

You could say that about literally any footballing win.

Take Gerrard out, we don't win Istanbul.
Take Henry out, the Invincibles aren't invincible.
Take Cruyff out, Ajax don't win 3 consecutive European cups.

It's if my auntie was my uncle bollocks. It adds nothing to the debate, as football is a team game and changing literally any cog in the machine will massively affect the probabilities involved. We could have had another CL under Rafa if Riise hadn't been the one defending that semi final set piece. But he was.

Speaking of horrible tackles, Ramos wouldnt have been sent off in the old days for it. In fact Maradona had his ankle broken intentionally and suffered much, much worse tackles than you will see nowadays.

Yes, there probably were worse tackles. But it doesn't mean that Messi gets cuddles and silk every game he plays either.

There's also the fact that Maradona was liable to put in a few nasty challenges himself. And do a load of beak all the time as well. Which may be impressive as a narcotic feat, being the world's best player while addicted to cocaine, but for me it also means that he could have potentially been even better, but he wasn't really arsed. and that has to be a shame.

[child-in-time]

Take Messi out of Argentina and they wouldn't have made a single final since the time he started playing for them

As if the Argentina of then would have without Maradona.

Yes, there probably were worse tackles. But it doesn't mean that Messi gets cuddles and silk every game he plays either.

There's also the fact that Maradona was liable to put in a few nasty challenges himself. And do a load of beak all the time as well. Which may be impressive as a narcotic feat, being the world's best player while addicted to cocaine, but for me it also means that he could have potentially been even better, but he wasn't really arsed. and that has to be a shame.

Probably? There were tens of worse tackles week in week out. Just take look at the first game of the 86'WC, the South Koreans gave Maradona a good kicking every time he got the ball. The result? - 2 yellow cards during the course of the whole game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcGCBsuj-Dc

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

As if the Argentina of then would have without Maradona.

Not really my point. Take the best player out of any team and see what happens

[paulrazor]

Unless you're a part of the tiny percentage of the worlds population who hate the nation that represents them (e.g. Scousers, Catalans, Basques, etc), the World Cup is the ultimate, most prestigious tournament in football. Messi, a proud Argentine, would love to win it more than anything. Argentina just not been able to.

slight modification made mate

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Probably? There were tens of worse tackles week in week out. Just take look at the first game of the 86'WC, the South Koreans gave Maradona a good kicking every time he got the ball. The result? - 2 yellow cards during the course of the whole game.

Same happened to Pele at Goodison in the 66 WC.

Ultimately, so what? So what if it was harder then physically? Ultimately, players are faster now - that's more difficult for Messi. The days of pint-downing defenders like Tony Adams are long gone. Are you allowing for that? Are you allowing for the fact that the likes of Denmark and Greece won tournaments just by being well organised? Which pretty much never happened in Maradona's day - spoilers can prosper now, whereas then, the skill would out.

[child-in-time]

Same happened to Pele at Goodison in the 66 WC.

Ultimately, so what? So what if it was harder then physically? Ultimately, players are faster now - that's more difficult for Messi. The days of pint-downing defenders like Tony Adams are long gone. Are you allowing for that? Are you allowing for the fact that the likes of Denmark and Greece won tournaments just by being well organised? Which pretty much never happened in Maradona's day - spoilers can prosper now, whereas then, the skill would out.

It's a pointless discussion anyway, but Denmark won the Euros before "the late 90s", which was your original argument. Italy won the world cup in 1982 by being well organised. They were far from being the best team. Czechoslovakia won the Euros couple of years earlier, so here's another example for you.

[Corkboy]

You could say that about literally any footballing win.

Take Gerrard out, we don't win Istanbul.
Take Henry out, the Invincibles aren't invincible.
Take Cruyff out, Ajax don't win 3 consecutive European cups.

Substitute Didi, Pires and Krol, and you're still right.

[Broad Spectrum]

Took an elbow to the mouth, pissing blood, and still scored two goals. Somehow I think he'd be fine in the 80's.

[paulrazor]

Took an elbow to the mouth, pissing blood, and still scored two goals. Somehow I think he'd be fine in the 80's.

probably doesnt get fouled as much as people cant catch him!

we are very lucky to witness him and ronaldo!

imagine them in the same team!

[Miltonred]

The Champions League is far harder to win than the World Cup in my opinion.

I'm not sure how that case can be made?
For starters, the World Cup is played once every four years versus every year.

In fact I will just stop there.

And that's the problem with trying to compare team achievements from player to player. Yes its a team game, and how well a great player works with a group and brings them success versus just pads his own stats is important, but ultimately what the guy does matters more imho.

Messi is a better player than any player I have ever seen, and that includes Maradona (I'm 49, so I saw him in his pomp). 
I can't say if he is better than Pele, Eusebio or Puskas, I never saw them.

[Gerry Attrick]

I'm not sure how that case can be made?
For starters, the World Cup is played once every four years versus every year.

In fact I will just stop there.

Winning the Champions League requires players/ a team to maintain form over a longer period of time. The standard of play is far higher at club level as well as they work with each other day in day out. International coaches are pretty shit on the whole too.

[elsewhere]

probably doesnt get fouled as much as people cant catch him!

we are very lucky to witness him and ronaldo!

imagine them in the same team!

Maybe not a populr opinion but neither would be as great as they have been if they played in the sane team.
Their games don't complete each other.

[Broad Spectrum]

probably doesnt get fouled as much as people cant catch him!

we are very lucky to witness him and ronaldo!

imagine them in the same team!

He's ridiculous, you literally can't catch him at times!

Loved the way he held up his shirt to the crowd after the winner.

[Pistolero]

Maradona says im High.

nods

[Isaacsways]

the speed he has with the ball at his feet to is incredible. its like the ball is glued to his boot

very few players can possess that ability where they dont seem to slow down when in possession.

best of all time for me.

Just saying that today... the speed with the ball is incredible.. his first goal hasn't been talked about much but the way he received the ball at full speed then danced round the defender was amazing... like it was stuck to his foot...

[Lucaspool FC]

Maradona is still the best player ever for me. Second best Messi or Pelé? Well did not see Pelé as an adult so I don't know, but Messi is the second best player I've seen and real Ronaldo third I think.

[Xxavi]

For me, Messi is the best ever.

And anyone who thinks players win tournaments on their own need their head checked. If a team is leaking goals, no matter how good your striker is, they won't win anything. Maradona scored and assisted in 86, but if his team shipped 4 goals, like Messi's Argentina did vs Germany (with Maradona). It is probably true that without Maradona, Argentina wouldn't have won the world cup in 1986, however, any further extrapolations are pure speculation. I.e., can anybody argue that Maradona would have won the 2010 World Cup with Argentina with himself as the coach? Absolutely not.

Messi has been world's best player for the past decade+. But he hasn't won everything every year, which goes on to show the importance of team in football. Maradona was world's best player, but he wasn't winning everything every year. You have to have right conditions, right team and some luck to win, especially cups.

[trimore]

Any arguement for Maradona as a better player because he peformed better in one tournament and one final than Messi collapses on games played.

Before the 86 final Maradona played only 31 club games, 36 the seasons before and 23 the season before that. Compared to Messi, 46, 50 & 60. Plus more friendly international games to line AFA pockets, more qulaification games, more Copa tournaments, etc. It doesn't take a genius to see what's going on here.

After these long brutal seasons. In games in the hotter parts of the years where Messi and his star forwards are mentally and physically exhausted. Creating games which favour midfield, goalies, defense, and overall depth. Thus giving Germany and Chile advantages Messi could never influence alone.

I'm not buying any this Maradona is better than Messi because of a single World Cup. People can think Maradona is better because he was more aggresive and unpredictable, but not the World Cup argument. 

[Xxavi]

Any arguement for Maradona as a better player because he peformed better in one tournament and one final than Messi collapses on games played.

Before the 86 final Maradona played only 31 club games, 36 the seasons before and 23 the season before that. Compared to Messi, 46, 50 & 60. Plus more friendly international games to line AFA pockets, more qulaification games, more Copa tournaments, etc. It doesn't take a genius to see what's going on here.

After these long brutal seasons. In games in the hotter parts of the years where Messi and his star forwards are mentally and physically exhausted. Creating games which favour midfield, goalies, defense, and overall depth. Thus giving Germany and Chile advantages Messi could never influence alone.

I'm not buying any this Maradona is better than Messi because of a single World Cup. People can think Maradona is better because he was more aggresive and unpredictable, but not the World Cup argument. 

Good point. I made a similar point before but from a slightly different angle. There can be no argument that football is a lot more athletic and faster these days. You cannot survive in modern football as a top player if you are not a top professional. It is automatically assumed that the likes of Pele and Maradona would have simply adapted to modern football, but that is also a huge assumption. The question is, would they adapt to modern football without losing their competitive advantage?

I don't want to denigrate old football, but the games were like in slow motion, with a bunch of drinking, smoking players with bellies. Is there any doubt that Messi wouldn't be able to dribble around them? Conversely, it is not given that Maradona would be able to do the same in modern football. His body may not have taken 50-60 matches a year at such a pace, nevermind his lifestyle.

People often say Messi/Ronaldo have advantage because tackling isn't the same. Yeah, but all things considered, those "pros" in old days had a lot more going for them. Far fewer matches against players most of whom frankly wouldn't make it as a pro these days.

^ I think a coach in La Liga voiced the opinion above. He said something along the lines of Messi does everything Maradona did back in the day but he does it much faster, as pace of the game has gone up by quite a bit.
Finally, Messi simply scores more than Maradona. Goal scoring cannot be brushed aside. Dribbles are dribbles, but goalscoring is something else. Put Maradona in any era and in any team, he doesn't score 500 goals.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Maradona's still the greatest for me.

It's a fun, pointless argument and there is no definitive answer, mainly because if you ask 100 people to define what makes the greatest you'll get 100 different answers. For some, being the best at club level is enough. That's a fine and valid position to take. For me though I'd expect the Greatest of All Time to perform at that level at both club and international level.

A lot of people on here denigrate international football and World Cups. "It's not at the level of Champions League" for example. Which makes you wonder, if it's not at the level of Champions League, why isn't Messi performing as well, if not much better, in an easier format? It's not for lack of effort - it means more to him than performing for Barcelona. It's because performing at international level requires almost a different skillset. Club football may have the edge techinically and organisationally, but the mental pressure of performing in the World Cup knock out stages is like nothing else, and some players handle that better than others.

Don't get me wrong, Messi's always been 'good' in those WC knock out games, but if you see him for Barca and then see him for Argentina in the business end of a tournament, you can't tell me he's not much worse in the latter games. His level dips significantly. He goes from being godlike for Barca to just 'good' for Argentina. I don't think it's too much for the GOAT to maintain his excellent club level during the high pressure international matches. The other greats managed to, such as Pele, Maradona, Zidane, Platini, Ronaldo etc, so it's not outlandish to expect that from the GOAT.

I don't even think he needs to win the whole thing. He could just turn up and stamp his authority and class on a tournament like Baggio in 94 and Zidane in 06. That would be enough for me anyway to know he's got the mentality and the cahoonas that I think the GOAT should have. Each to their own though.


As an aside, it makes for fascinating reading some of the mental gymnastics you Messi obsessives are coming up with justify him not yet turning up to a big international tournament. Seriously fascinating.

[child-in-time]

Good point. I made a similar point before but from a slightly different angle. There can be no argument that football is a lot more athletic and faster these days. You cannot survive in modern football as a top player if you are not a top professional. It is automatically assumed that the likes of Pele and Maradona would have simply adapted to modern football, but that is also a huge assumption. The question is, would they adapt to modern football without losing their competitive advantage?

Would Messi and Ronaldo have been as good back in the day without the now indispensable pre-game preparation (no modern and ambitious training regimes, no nutrition plans, no daily workout routine and exercises, etc)? I think the answer is an obvious no. Would they have developed the way they did? I think we can all agree that they wouldn't have.