Topic: Defending Set Pieces

[Severely]

So after what feels like the 5 millionth goal we've conceded from a set piece this season, I tried to find statistics regarding our defensive performance from set pieces. After failing to discover any, I put together this list:

League:

Southampton (H) 0-1 loss - corner - Lovren header against Agger
Crystal Palace (H) 3-1 win - free kick - Gayle header against Gerrard
Newcastle (A) 2-2 draw - free kick - ball falls to Dummett off of Toure's head
West Brom (H) 4-1 win - penalty - Morrison scores after Jones is clipped by Cissokho
Everton (A) 3-3 draw - free kick - Skrtel loses a header and Mirallas scores after losing his marker, Gerrard
                                  - corner - Lukaku heads it in over Flanagan after losing his marker, Johnson
Hull (A) 3-1 loss - free kick - Toure fails to clear, Sagbo gives it to Meyler who scores
Cardiff (H) 3-1 win - set piece - Mutch heads in as he is left completely unmarked
Man City (A) 2-1 loss - corner - Kompany heads in over Skrtel

League Cup:

Notts County (H) 4-2 win (extra time) - free kick - Johnson loses his opponent, letting him head the ball into the box for Arquin to head in over both Wisdom and Toure
Man U (A) 0-1 loss - corner - Hernandez loses his marker, Enrique, to score


(If I've missed anything, please let me know and I'll correct it!)


In the league, we've conceded 21 goals in total. 9 have been from set pieces. That means 43% of goals scored against us so far have been from set pieces. I haven't been able to compare it to the records of other teams, but that looks absolutely dire as a percentage. Of the teams who have scored against us, only Swansea, Sunderland, Arsenal, West Ham and Norwich have scored goals against us in open play. If we include the League Cup, we've conceded 24 goals in total, and 11 from set pieces, making it 46% of goals conceded being from set pieces, which is even worse. If we take the 2 Skrtel own goals (one against Hull, one against West Ham) out of the equation as well, I suspect we would have one of the best defensive records in England in terms of goals conceded in open play.

So what's going wrong? Almost half of all goals that we've conceded this season have been from set plays. That seems like a ridiculous statistic on paper - is there something we're missing? I would guess that this isn't something that can be put down to personnel - the more or less constant switching of defensive formations and players has been well documented this season, and yet, no matter who we put on the field, we've consistently looked very vulnerable defending corners and free kicks. So is this down to Rodgers and his tactics or preparations? It's also important to remember the number of set pieces on which we've defended poorly but escaped without conceding from - it seems virtually every corner falls to an opposition player, and every free kick lands at the head or feet of the other team.

Perhaps it's not only set pieces that are the problem? After watching the highlights of all the games we've conceded goals in, it's disturbing to see just how many of them have been from crosses where we've defended poorly by failing to attack the ball, or leaving players unmarked in front of goal. Aside from the Negredo effort today and a couple of longer-range goals like the ones from Ki and Shelvey, the vast majority of goals scored against us have been tap ins or headers from crosses. Could this mean that the inability to properly defend set pieces is merely a symptom of a bigger issue - a failure to cope with crosses?

It's worrying because we're being undone by goals that essentially feel soft when we've looked so convincing in almost all other aspects of the game. Is it likely that this inability to defend set plays will cost us big come May?

I'll try and keep this updated as we go along the season, but right now, I'd love to read the opinions of some of the more tactically astute members of this forum. What are we doing wrong, and how can we go about fixing it?

[PhaseOfPlay]

Couple of quick points.


Defensive formations have no real bearing on set-piece defending, except for the names of the players that are put on the field.

Secondly - it's important to separate corners from free kicks, because corners are a low-scoring restart, so it's better to know their total number so that we can compare against the average. Free kicks are higher scoring, so we might actually be within range for those, or poorer than average.

Thirdly, we also have to look at what our defensive system is on set-pieces - zonal marking, man-marking, or mixed. Without knowing those, we can't really say what we're good or bad at.


Lastly, for now - I've said frequently that I don't think we work on enough repetitions - if any - for set-piece defending, so the players are essentially working it out in games. I also think you have to look at common denominators when looking at why a specific tactic or tactics fail.

[BarryCrocker]

Problem in some cases seems to be that we are defending players and not the ball. If you want to score from a set piece you attack the ball. If you want to defend it's the same story.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Problem in some cases seems to be that we are defending players and not the ball. If you want to score from a set piece you attack the ball. If you want to defend it's the same story.

One of their players has to contact the ball on a corner or indirect free though. So at some point you also have to account for the player, whether you're defending zonally or man-to-man - edit: although I agree with you that we seem to be very passive in any case.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Couple of quick points.


Defensive formations have no real bearing on set-piece defending, except for the names of the players that are put on the field.

Secondly - it's important to separate corners from free kicks, because corners are a low-scoring restart, so it's better to know their total number so that we can compare against the average. Free kicks are higher scoring, so we might actually be within range for those, or poorer than average.

Thirdly, we also have to look at what our defensive system is on set-pieces - zonal marking, man-marking, or mixed. Without knowing those, we can't really say what we're good or bad at.


Lastly, for now - I've said frequently that I don't think we work on enough repetitions - if any - for set-piece defending, so the players are essentially working it out in games. I also think you have to look at common denominators when looking at why a specific tactic or tactics fail.

Glad it has taken 18 games to get here and admit we have some issues.  First, I agree there are some differences, probabilities of scoring and tactical match-ups to account for with a host of philosophies (zonal, man to man, hybrid).  However, I think Bales has hit on something that there is one major commonality for all restarts ---- a "mentality" to defend it.  This means no soft play like Johnson at Hull, or Gerrard at Goodison.  Cissokho has demonstrated he needs to take a peak now then after the Newcastle goal and today with Navas.
The mentality is we will not stand for standing and do nothing.  No Potemkin Village defenders.  Repetition breeds success.  LFC need a weekly hour long restart practice game where they spend the entire hour accumulating success after success until it is a part of our fabric.

[woof]

We've been quite poor at defending set pieces - factually or anecdotally since Rafa's days.

Do we need someone on the pitch to organise the defence (was Carra good at it?)? Do we need better defenders who'd fare better aerially? One quick improvement we can make is to get the message of not wrestling a player into Skrtel's head. He's done that over and over again and one of these days, he's going to be penalised for it. To me, he lacks that discipline and it's just not confined to wrestling or shirt tugging. How many times have we seen him raise his boot to a dangerous height?

[Coutinholycow]

I agree its certainly not a strength of the team, but to be honest, I think every team hates their set piece defending.

[Caligula?]

We're probably not that much worse in terms of statistics than any of the teams around us. Rodgers seems to be noticing our vulnerability on conceding goals from set pieces and does address it, but then it seems as if we've done nothing about it after we concede from a set piece yet again in the next match.

[BrandoLFC]

Maybe it's just my ignorance but I don't get why nobody is attacking the ball seemingly ever.  Is just hoping the ball falls to one of your teammates for a clearance a valid defensive set-piece plan?

[kred]

We've been quite poor at defending set pieces - factually or anecdotally since Rafa's days.

Do we need someone on the pitch to organise the defence (was Carra good at it?)? Do we need better defenders who'd fare better aerially? One quick improvement we can make is to get the message of not wrestling a player into Skrtel's head. He's done that over and over again and one of these days, he's going to be penalised for it. To me, he lacks that discipline and it's just not confined to wrestling or shirt tugging. How many times have we seen him raise his boot to a dangerous height?

Spot on.  Skrtel has not been defending headers.  Cardiff game could have easily been 2 penalties.  If our forwards were grappled this way, we would be up in arms.  Skrtel is a nervous defender.  I hope Ilori comes through fast, or Toure steps in.  Otherwise this is a ticking time bomb. 

[stanleylhs]

Are we utilizing our best header of the ball against the opponents biggest aerial threat?

Lukaku v Johnson, Kompany v Skrtel

I wonder how Sahko will perform when given the task.

[LFC_Verve]

It genuinely is infuriating. Every match when it comes to defending a set piece, the opposition seem to win the header the vast majority of times. It's been the same old story for a while now.

Our Achilles heel.

[RoshanA]

Mingnolet needs to take a little more command of the situation. We are desperate at set pieces, so a strong keeper who can come out take the ball, or punch it away will help the defenders. Although this is of course risky scenario too.

If there's a fault with Mingnolet is that he is Shay Given type keeper who never leaves his line.

[goalrushatgoodison]

I don't think set-piece goals conceded as a percentage of overall goals conceded is a relevant stat. The percentage calculation is equally as dependant on the goals we concede from open play as those from set plays. If we conceded 20 more goals from open play the percentage would be much lower but the problem would be exactly the same - how do we defend set-pieces better?

Personally, for corners,  i preferred the old sysyem of putting a couple of guys on the line and letting your keeper deal with anything around or near the six yard box. Cutting the danger out at source so to speak. And yes i do remember some of the craziness with Bruce and James but my perception is that we conceded less back then. Anyhow, this seems to be old hat now so ultimately IMO, it's down to individuals doing their jobs properly. It would appear unrealistic to think that it's the formation or the system - Rodgers and his staff are top coaches, they know what they are doing.

[HeartAndSoul]

Heart in my mouth every time we give away a free kick in wide areas or a corner kick. We seem so vulnurable from it for some reason and it's not just been this season. Been happening for a while now.

Its probably a mix of us having quite a few small players and some terrible marking. Needs sorting out asap

[PhaseOfPlay]

I don't think set-piece goals conceded as a percentage of overall goals conceded is a relevant stat. The percentage calculation is equally as dependant on the goals we concede from open play as those from set plays. If we conceded 20 more goals from open play the percentage would be much lower but the problem would be exactly the same - how do we defend set-pieces better?

Personally, for corners,  i preferred the old sysyem of putting a couple of guys on the line and letting your keeper deal with anything around or near the six yard box. Cutting the danger out at source so to speak. And yes i do remember some of the craziness with Bruce and James but my perception is that we conceded less back then. Anyhow, this seems to be old hat now so ultimately IMO, it's down to individuals doing their jobs properly. It would appear unrealistic to think that it's the formation or the system - Rodgers and his staff are top coaches, they know what they are doing.

In general terms, it's highly relevant. For example, corners are a low-scoring restart - that's across time and different leagues. So whatever set up we have for corners, we're going to concede anyway, but the numbers we concede are not going to be altogether damaging (unless we stop defending altogether). In fact, there was once a statistic that found that teams were actually more vulnerable when they were attacking a corner. So while we need to defend them, we don't need to worry too much about them, because most corners fail

Free kicks, on the other hand, are quite successful as a percentage of goals. So defending them properly is vital, and we don't do a good job of that.

[LeoMessi]

We've been quite poor at defending set pieces - factually or anecdotally since Rafa's days.

Do we need someone on the pitch to organise the defence (was Carra good at it?)? Do we need better defenders who'd fare better aerially? One quick improvement we can make is to get the message of not wrestling a player into Skrtel's head. He's done that over and over again and one of these days, he's going to be penalised for it. To me, he lacks that discipline and it's just not confined to wrestling or shirt tugging. How many times have we seen him raise his boot to a dangerous height?

Toure

[goalrushatgoodison]

In general terms, it's highly relevant. For example, corners are a low-scoring restart - that's across time and different leagues. So whatever set up we have for corners, we're going to concede anyway, but the numbers we concede are not going to be altogether damaging (unless we stop defending altogether). In fact, there was once a statistic that found that teams were actually more vulnerable when they were attacking a corner. So while we need to defend them, we don't need to worry too much about them, because most corners fail

Free kicks, on the other hand, are quite successful as a percentage of goals. So defending them properly is vital, and we don't do a good job of that.

I was referring to the OPs observation that 43% of goals conceded by LFC this season were from set-pieces. This,IMO, is irrelevant as could be as much about us doing an excellent job defending open play situations as about doing a bad job defending set-pieces.

Your distinction between corners and free kicks is important and I understand the point you are making - you will concede more goals if you are incompetent at defending free kicks than corner kicks. However, the target should be to be competent, and equally so, at both.

[woof]

The relevance is how are we defending against crosses - either from corners or free kicks. Are we attacking the ball or man mark? Are we making a good guess on who's going to run in and head the ball from the opposition?

[Mamadou]

we had this problem even when Rafa was here... basically we can say that we have this problem since we signed Skrtel

[bepoq]

In general terms, it's highly relevant. For example, corners are a low-scoring restart - that's across time and different leagues. So whatever set up we have for corners, we're going to concede anyway, but the numbers we concede are not going to be altogether damaging (unless we stop defending altogether). In fact, there was once a statistic that found that teams were actually more vulnerable when they were attacking a corner. So while we need to defend them, we don't need to worry too much about them, because most corners fail

aye, you keep saying this, but I don't buy it—not because I think whatever statistic you're using that says corners are a low scoring restart is wrong, but because I suspect that that statistic is what it is because most teams are able to defend corners relatively competently—that is, that defending that sort of restart is a basic defensive competency and that given that competence corners aren't such a threatening attack. To suggest that we don't have to worry them, however seems to me to be very unwise because (and by the way this also seems to be this sort of odd, if not mendacious, use of statistics I seem to be seeing a lot lately) it is utterly unclear from that statistic whether where that basic level of competency is lacking, the drop into corners being becoming regular devastating, or at least hugely pressure building, becomes unsustainable. At the moment, statistics or not, we look very poor against corners—we concede goals, we concede pressure, we look panicked and, we don't look competent—I don't think the statistics make us look competent do they?—and as such, I'm not at all sure that the statistic that corners aren't very dangerous across leagues really applies to us as, at least at our league's level we don't seem to be basically competent at defending them, and without that competence we may well be a statistical outlier.

[PhaseOfPlay]

aye, you keep saying this, but I don't buy it—not because I think whatever statistic you're using that says corners are a low scoring restart is wrong, but because I suspect that that statistic is what it is because most teams are able to defend corners relatively competently—that is, that defending that sort of restart is a basic defensive competency and that given that competence corners aren't such a threatening attack. To suggest that we don't have to worry them, however seems to me to be very unwise because (and by the way this also seems to be this sort of odd, if not mendacious, use of statistics I seem to be seeing a lot lately) it is utterly unclear from that statistic whether where that basic level of competency is lacking, the drop into corners being becoming regular devastating, or at least hugely pressure building, becomes unsustainable. At the moment, statistics or not, we look very poor against corners—we concede goals, we concede pressure, we look panicked and, we don't look competent—I don't think the statistics make us look competent do they?—and as such, I'm not at all sure that the statistic that corners aren't very dangerous across leagues really applies to us as, at least at our league's level we don't seem to be basically competent at defending them, and without that competence we may well be a statistical outlier.

Or....

I've been involved in thousands upon thousands of corners, and I use the statistic because it tallies with my personal experience that corners are low scoring events.


Do you want to guess at why? And it's not because they are well-defended

[mrantarctica]

Perhaps it's a mixture of a number of things - lack of confidence, lack of clarity over roles, lack of willingness to attack the ball, combined with some or most of the players having a poor spring, poor balance, and not being able to judge the flight of the ball very well.

We do need to work on it though - I always feel pretty nervous when we concede a free kick. I never feel confident that we'll win the header, or even put the player off enough.

[bepoq]

Or....

I've been involved in thousands upon thousands of corners, and I use the statistic because it tallies with my personal experience that corners are low scoring events.


Do you want to guess at why? And it's not because they are well-defended

nah mate, ta, you've been doing this recently. First of all pulling an "I know better" (probably true but I'm really not interested without you making the argument). And then a just splendidly patronising "do you want to guess... ?" with a "I'll give you a little clue lad" for some extra condescension added on. No, I sodding don't. I'm not interested in playing guessing games with you. It was a shite result that I still feel bad about, I've an exceedingly long day with the inlaws, and I don't come on here to be talked down to.

And also, you don't bother actually taking on any of the substantive bits of my post—just dismissive.

[Camarero25]

It's a fuckin' joke at the mo'. Badly need to sort it.

[n00bert]

I think part of the problem is man for man we don't have particularly big or physically strong players. Bar Sakho and maybe Skrtel, we look like we just look like losing the battle in the box.

City on the other hand had Negredo, Zabaleta, Toure, Kompany, Lescott and to some extent Kolorov who are always threatening from set pieces.

Personally I'm not particularly worried because teams with the physical presence of city are few and far between and those that do tend to lack the overall qualities that city possesses - ie they may be threatening from set pieces but they would be much mor average every where else. We will out score these teams.

At the moment I would prefer our small and mobile midfield to just having a physical presence to help defend set pieces.

[woof]

nah mate, ta, you've been doing this recently. First of all pulling an "I know better" (probably true but I'm really not interested without you making the argument). And then a just splendidly patronising "do you want to guess... ?" with a "I'll give you a little clue lad" for some extra condescension added on. No, I sodding don't. I'm not interested in playing guessing games with you. It was a shite result that I still feel bad about, I've an exceedingly long day with the inlaws, and I don't come on here to be talked down to.

And also, you don't bother actually taking on any of the substantive bits of my post—just dismissive.

Oh..... you have no idea. Anywho.... most of us are real disappointed with the result (but not that way we played) and there is no reason tearing each other up in the forums.

We do have deficiencies and defence is definitely the key area although one must say that BR has improved us defensively from last season. We have Mig who's a good shot stopper and we have Sakho. Like BoH/PoP said, we don't practise enough of that (I'm guessing)

[Prof]

Sometimes, set pieces are well executed by the attacking team.  A pacey delivery, accurately placed into the position of maximum opportunity (POMO) met with good timing by a strong headerer of the ball is difficult to defend.

Situations are made more problematic by the presence of obstructions.  Defenders not able to get a free run at the ball etc.  Kompany's goal was exactly this, a well directed delivery, met by Kompany level with the front post just outside the six yard box.

It was slightly unlucky in that we had a player back on the line who wasn't quite able to clear it and it was about the only place it could have beaten both goalkeeper and defender.

[gamble]

I don't know what the answer is but agree balls into the box are a weakness and the opposition must know this.

On a completely academic point, I wouldn't say our deliveries into the box are that great either from set pieces. Must be hard to practise defending against good deliveries when you are not experiencing it day in day out??

[Funky_Gibbons]

It's amazing that nearly every one of those goals conceded from a set piece has been a defender making a mistake. With Rodgers preferring the smaller, technical player there was allays a danger we would be weaker at set pieces but more often than not it is our strapping defenders who are being out muscled or out manoeuvred. 

[TSC]

The most worrying aspect is that usually on corners it is difficult to score from them, and someone in the attacking team needs to first attack and win the ball ahead of a marker and then has to not just get a header on target but also has to find a way past a keeper & sometimes (usually) 2 defenders on the line.  However against us it appears not to be too difficult.  There are basic errors.  Like leaving a 2v1 at the back post recently v Cardiff.  And also Skrtel's insane attempts to pull off his markers shirt at corners instead of attacking the ball.  Rodgers and the other coaching staff should be telling him to attack the ball and not the man.  Maybe they are & he's carrying on regardless, who knows?  But it's costing us goals.

Also Mignolet could help take some of the pressure off by leaving his line.  But he's rooted to it unfortunately.

[TSC]

I don't know what the answer is but agree balls into the box are a weakness and the opposition must know this.

On a completely academic point, I wouldn't say our deliveries into the box are that great either from set pieces. Must be hard to practise defending against good deliveries when you are not experiencing it day in day out??

To be fair Gerrard's deliveries this season have been excellent.  We haven't had that in recent games but his deliveries have led to a number of goals this season.   Our deliveries have been poor recently with Gerrard missing.

[steveeastend]

A thread for the glass half empty guys, have fun.

[spider-neil]

We got well and truly spoilt by Sami. When Sami was in the team is the only time I've felt comfortable with our set piece defending.

[Fromola]

What makes it a more general problem at the club is the under 18s and under 21s are actually even worse at defending them. If they concede one goal a game from a set piece it's generally considered a relief.

I'd consider bringing a coach in purely to work on this detail through the club. You can't get anywhere these days if you can't defend set pieces. It's a key part of the game.

[spider-neil]

I think it's safe to say Sakho is our best header of the ball and arguably our strongest defender (strength rather than best) so why isn't he put on THEIR strongest header of the ball? Kompany for City, Terry for Chelsea etc?
Skrtel, ground on the ground unfortunately had a head like a sheriff's badge and so has to wrestle with players rather than simply trying to win the ball.

[Fromola]

I think it's safe to say Sakho is our best header of the ball and arguably our strongest defender (strength rather than best) so why isn't he put on THEIR strongest header of the ball? Kompany for City, Terry for Chelsea etc?
Skrtel, ground on the ground unfortunately had a head like a sheriff's badge and so has to wrestle with players rather than simply trying to win the ball.

Most teams still have more than one aerial threat though. Take Kompany out and you've still got Negredo, Lescott or Dzeko to deal with.

[moloch]

And also, you don't bother actually taking on any of the substantive bits of my post—just dismissive.

Pops very valid view on the corners has been well documented on this site. I suggest you do some homework before you start with the anecdotal evidence (ie what you see on the telly).

[gooner1]

So after what feels like the 5 millionth goal we've conceded from a set piece this season, I tried to find statistics regarding our defensive performance from set pieces. After failing to discover any, I put together this list:

League:

Southampton (H) 0-1 loss - corner - Lovren header against Agger
Crystal Palace (H) 3-1 win - free kick - Gayle header against Gerrard
Newcastle (A) 2-2 draw - free kick - ball falls to Dummett off of Toure's head
West Brom (H) 4-1 win - penalty - Morrison scores after Jones is clipped by Cissokho
Everton (A) 3-3 draw - free kick - Skrtel loses a header and Mirallas scores after losing his marker, Gerrard
                                  - corner - Lukaku heads it in over Flanagan after losing his marker, Johnson
Hull (A) 3-1 loss - free kick - Toure fails to clear, Sagbo gives it to Meyler who scores
Cardiff (H) 3-1 win - set piece - Mutch heads in as he is left completely unmarked
Man City (A) 2-1 loss - corner - Kompany heads in over Skrtel

League Cup:

Notts County (H) 4-2 win (extra time) - free kick - Johnson loses his opponent, letting him head the ball into the box for Arquin to head in over both Wisdom and Toure
Man U (A) 0-1 loss - corner - Hernandez loses his marker, Enrique, to score


(If I've missed anything, please let me know and I'll correct it!)


In the league, we've conceded 21 goals in total. 9 have been from set pieces. That means 43% of goals scored against us so far have been from set pieces. I haven't been able to compare it to the records of other teams, but that looks absolutely dire as a percentage. Of the teams who have scored against us, only Swansea, Sunderland, Arsenal, West Ham and Norwich have scored goals against us in open play. If we include the League Cup, we've conceded 24 goals in total, and 11 from set pieces, making it 46% of goals conceded being from set pieces, which is even worse. If we take the 2 Skrtel own goals (one against Hull, one against West Ham) out of the equation as well, I suspect we would have one of the best defensive records in England in terms of goals conceded in open play.

So what's going wrong? Almost half of all goals that we've conceded this season have been from set plays. That seems like a ridiculous statistic on paper - is there something we're missing? I would guess that this isn't something that can be put down to personnel - the more or less constant switching of defensive formations and players has been well documented this season, and yet, no matter who we put on the field, we've consistently looked very vulnerable defending corners and free kicks. So is this down to Rodgers and his tactics or preparations? It's also important to remember the number of set pieces on which we've defended poorly but escaped without conceding from - it seems virtually every corner falls to an opposition player, and every free kick lands at the head or feet of the other team.

Perhaps it's not only set pieces that are the problem? After watching the highlights of all the games we've conceded goals in, it's disturbing to see just how many of them have been from crosses where we've defended poorly by failing to attack the ball, or leaving players unmarked in front of goal. Aside from the Negredo effort today and a couple of longer-range goals like the ones from Ki and Shelvey, the vast majority of goals scored against us have been tap ins or headers from crosses. Could this mean that the inability to properly defend set pieces is merely a symptom of a bigger issue - a failure to cope with crosses?

It's worrying because we're being undone by goals that essentially feel soft when we've looked so convincing in almost all other aspects of the game. Is it likely that this inability to defend set plays will cost us big come May?

I'll try and keep this updated as we go along the season, but right now, I'd love to read the opinions of some of the more tactically astute members of this forum. What are we doing wrong, and how can we go about fixing it?

To me big issues your defenders have is nobody seems to be making sure their goalside of the attacker at set pieces. To often your center defender will have a marker but will let him get ahead of him when they ball comes over the top.

You don,t have a john terry type or sami hypia type defender who can match the movement of leading attacker at set pieces.

The second goal you lost at newcastle  for example came for me because everyone seemed be following the ball and not the man they were meant to mark.

[Floydy]

one area that really concerns me,   BR has had plenty of time to address this yet its still our achilles heal. Things will need to improve if we are to finish in the top 4  or win a trophy.