Author Topic: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16  (Read 223538 times)

Online TepidT2O

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2015, 10:50:42 pm »
Yep.... Still can't remember how it works.. I will get it by May
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2015, 10:52:50 pm »
Hope City beat Chelsea next week. That would put them and us at +6 vs Chelsea, if we too beat Bournemouth that is.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2015, 11:38:19 pm »
Cheers for this Prof. My favourite thread.

I already said in the match thread how imortant/good it was for us to win. We go ahead of our rivals already in a fixture we traditionally struggle in.

If next weekend goes our way we could be going into the Arsenal away game high on confidence with them low on confidence and already calling for Wenger out! :D

I always said we had the best two teams on Merseyside… Liverpool and Liverpool Reserves.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2015, 12:37:56 am »
Cheers for this Prof. My favourite thread.

Mine too - love your work Prof!
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2015, 08:10:33 am »
You're welcome.  Thanks for following and for the comments.

Offline sakho

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2015, 10:24:52 am »
Love the APLT. Keep up the good job!

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2015, 02:19:56 pm »
Such an important win. And a draw against Bournmouth now wouldn't be catastrophic, although will think it is.
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Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2015, 02:26:19 pm »


Great thread this does be.

Our tough start will make for good reading on here if we can come through it averaging 2pts a game. So far so good.
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Offline TheSoundLady

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2015, 02:56:59 pm »
Very good thread and very clever concept. So far so good. Have to win the games we're expected to win though.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2015, 03:39:00 pm »
Hope City beat Chelsea next week. That would put them and us at +6 vs Chelsea, if we too beat Bournemouth that is.

Dont think so , our home games are par so nothing to be gained same for city ....i think

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2015, 03:46:52 pm »
Dont think so , our home games are par so nothing to be gained same for city ....i think

Yep, if Chelsea lose they go to -3 and both City and us would stay at +2 so the gap would be 5.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2015, 03:52:46 pm »
A draw would be best, for the real table and this one. Chelsea stay at -2, Shitty move to zero.
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2015, 04:17:39 pm »


Cheers Prof, and thanks for what I'm sure will be another fascinating thread for those of us who like an alternative look at the table.

I like to post a little guide to new readers about how all this works, so I'll use this week's results to illustrate a few things.

Firstly, the APLT works as a model. It sets out a fairly realistic method of winning the league. The tables and graphs plot how well a given side is doing against the model, so you can see what the side probably needs to do in order to win the title or, to a lesser extent what they'll probably need to do to get a top 4 position.

The model is simple. It makes a few assumptions, based heavily on the record of the league, and it suggests a method to win. The method is this:

  • Win all of your home games. (19x3=57pts)
  • Win your 7 easiest away games. (7x3=21pts)
  • Draw the rest. (12x1=12pts)
  • Win the league. (57+21+12=90pts)
The main assumption is that 90 points will win you the title. (This is almost always going to be true. If you get 90 points and do not win the league, you are entitled to feel extremely unlucky.)

The question of which are the "easiest" away games is obviously controversial, but the model again takes a simplistic approach, that does seem to be borne out by history. Teams are ranked based on their finishing position the previous season. (Although obviously some sides will be stronger than the year before, and some weaker, it's unusual for more than a couple of sides to move in or out of the top 13.) So any team that finished in positions 1-13 is a "Par 1" away game, and the rest are "Par 3".

So based on this idea, each game gets a "par" score. If you get a result that fits the pattern, that's a par result. If you get a worse result (drawing or losing a home game, for example) then you drop points. If you get a better result (winning away to a good side) then you gain.

So let's have a little look at the table so far:


At the top, we see Manchester City on +2. They won away to West Brom. As West Brom finished last season in 13th place, they are counted as a Par 1 side. (Again, the previous season's top 13 are all Par 1 sides. As all the teams in the APLT finished inside the top 13, each only has 12 Par 1 games per season because you don't play yourself.)

So that seems like a fairly "soft" par 1 game. And it is the easiest of the par 1 fixtures. But don't forget that the model also expects you to win every single home game. In reality, even most title winning teams will drop a small number of points at home, which makes "soft" par 1 games like West Brom an absolutely essential resource to make up lost ground.

In second place, Liverpool also sit on +2 after winning away to a "Par 1" side. In this case, Stoke City, who finished a very credible 9th last season. With the reds facing almost all of their Par 1 games before Christmas, picking up extra points now is a great way to build up a bit of a buffer zone ahead of those tough games. It's two points more than the model predicts at this stage, but it will be a few weeks before we can see if this is just a statistical blip, or the sign of a promising season.

In third place are Manchester United, the only side to record a perfect par score in week one. While a win at home to Spurs might look more difficult on paper than winning away to West Brom or Stoke, the APLT is emphatic on the importance of home form above all else. In fact, it is a criticism of the APLT that it over-emphasises this aspect of the game, although the results actually do support the idea. If you want to win the league, win nearly all of your home games.

Spurs are not likely to win the league. However, their loss away at Manchester United is only a small setback. Because Man Utd are a Par 1 side, Tottenham could have come away with a draw and still been on target to lift the trophy in May. (Stop laughing, back there! Spurs have won trophies. Ask your grandad.) So while they are no doubt kicking themselves for once more rolling over for United, their top four ambitions won't be lost in games like this.

Indeed, they are still above their cockerney neighbours, Chelsea, who could only muster an opening day draw with Swansea. In the cold eyes of the APLT, a loss away to a good side is less costly than a draw at home to anybody. Chelsea can, must and will do better. They start with a small handicap now, but it would be crazy to read too much into it. Chelsea as a team are very good at tracking the APLT's 0 point line, and will be looking to get back there in their next Par 1 game, away to Man City next Sunday in a massive early-season all-APLT clash.

Southampton appeared in the APLT late on last season, when several knowledgable types proclaimed that they would break into the top four. Their form promptly nosedived, and an opening draw away to "par 3" Newcastle is not a good way to recapture their soaring form over the first half of last season. They are level with Chelsea, let's see how long they can stay there.

Bringing up the rear (for the time being - as noted above, new teams are sometimes added to the APLT mid-season if they are showing form similar to the other APLT sides) are the Arsenal on -3. Losing at home to West Ham is a terrible result, and you don't need the APLT to show you why. Arsenal are currently in the relegation zone of the traditional table. There are, of course, many chances for them to regain some ground in that, but fewer in the APLT, where they will need to win two Par 1 games, just to get back on course. The two "softest" Par 1s are away to West Brom and to West Ham.

As the season progresses, and the APLT develops, we will start to get a clearer picture of how everybody is doing. The strength of this model is that is shows how well a team is doing against an ideal model, rather than where they happen to sit based on who they have played so far.
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2015, 04:20:57 pm »
Such an important win. And a draw against Bournmouth now wouldn't be catastrophic, although will think it is.

A draw against Bournemouth would be a huge step backwards, in my opinion. We've gained two points on the model, and there are only a few chances to do that, too few to throw them back as easily as that. Bournemouth is a solid Par 3, if we can't win that kind of game at Anfield, we really have problems.
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Offline campioni

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2015, 04:29:43 pm »
A draw against Bournemouth would be a huge step backwards, in my opinion. We've gained two points on the model, and there are only a few chances to do that, too few to throw them back as easily as that. Bournemouth is a solid Par 3, if we can't win that kind of game at Anfield, we really have problems.

Agree with this. However, the win at Stoke (providing we beat Bournemouth) means a draw at the emirates would be a decent result and keep us on +2. I think if we get to the end of November and the 7 difficult away games out of the way with an average of 2 points per game or better then it has been a good start to the season.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2015, 04:31:04 pm »
Agree with this. However, the win at Stoke (providing we beat Bournemouth) means a draw at the emirates would be a decent result and keep us on +2. I think if we get to the end of November and the 7 difficult away games out of the way with an average of 2 points per game or better then it has been a good start to the season.

That would be a sensational start to the season. That would be title winning form.
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Offline TheSoundLady

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2015, 05:35:53 pm »
A draw against Bournemouth would be a huge step backwards, in my opinion. We've gained two points on the model, and there are only a few chances to do that, too few to throw them back as easily as that. Bournemouth is a solid Par 3, if we can't win that kind of game at Anfield, we really have problems.

It's not catastrophic. We need to win the game, but if we don't, then so be it. We'll go and win at Arsenal instead. No need to overreact to any one result.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2015, 05:39:29 pm »
Great post that Nessy, thanks

Offline ErieRed

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2015, 06:09:23 pm »
Great post, Nessy.  I've casually followed this thread for a few seaons but never had the concept explained quite so clearly. 

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2015, 06:47:43 pm »
The great thing about the APLT is that you get a very good idea of how your season is going as it takes into account who has the hardest and easiest start, mid season, run in, etc.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2015, 06:08:52 am »
And a great reality check. That brilliant run we went on last season didn't see us gain as much as you'd hope in the APLT.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2015, 06:13:22 am »
Brilliant write up N.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2015, 08:02:24 am »
Yep great explanation and analysis Nessy.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2015, 09:41:42 am »
That would be a sensational start to the season. That would be title winning form.

You're right. City away is our 13th game of the season, a two points per game average would have us on 26 points whereas APLT par would be 25.

This is where the APLT really helps see where a team is based not just on points but on the difficulty of games played and to come. In simple terms you would be thinking a two point average would have us on course for the top 4 but due to the number of top teams played away from home it would be more like title winning form.

Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2015, 11:07:52 am »



A strong start good be massive this season. That City game away is probably the last game we'll be favourites to not get anything from.

If we can win the 6 homes in between (Bournemouth, West Ham, Norwich, Villa, Southampton and Villa) and add the 3 pts already gained at Stoke that's 21points. A further 5 from the aways (arsenal, United, Everton, Spurs, Chelsea and City) would be 26 from 13 games.

Of course we could drop points against some of the homes but there's room in the aways to pick up more than 5 points also. You know I can understand why Mourinho settles for a point against the top 4, 4 draws and 2 wins vs Everton and Spurs would be brilliant stuff considering you are taking points off your rivals also.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 11:09:33 am by ShayGuevara »
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2015, 11:35:00 am »
And a great reality check. That brilliant run we went on last season didn't see us gain as much as you'd hope in the APLT.

Yes, it's very hard to gain on the APLT, the aim is to drop as few as possible to begin with. Once you start to fall five or six points away from the zero point line, it's unlikely that you're going to recover completely.
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Offline BoRed

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2015, 02:41:03 pm »
Perhaps Everton should be included instead of Southampton. ;)

Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2015, 05:41:47 pm »
Providing we beat Bournemouth, we will already be +7 ahead of Southampton, after just 2 games!
We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2015, 06:44:16 pm »
And Spurs.

Edit: no six. I keep thinking they lost today. Which is probably how they feel.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2015, 11:35:17 am »
And Spurs.

Edit: no six. I keep thinking they lost today. Which is probably how they feel.

5 ahead of Spurs mate, they'll be -3 and we would be +2
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2015, 02:37:42 pm »
5 ahead of Spurs mate, they'll be -3 and we would be +2
yeah that :P
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2015, 05:42:06 pm »
Beginning to look like a 2 horse race between us and City ;D
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2015, 06:33:36 pm »
Beginning to look like a 2 horse race between us and City ;D

Leicester City, you mean?
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2015, 06:38:03 pm »
Leicester City, you mean?

How could I forget Leicester?! ;D

On a more serious note going into our par 3 tomorrow I make that:

City +2
Us +2
Man Utd 0
Arsenal -1
Chelsea -3
Spurs -3
Southampton -5
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2015, 06:48:16 pm »
How could I forget Leicester?! ;D

On a more serious note going into our par 3 tomorrow I make that:

City +2
Us +2
Man Utd 0
Arsenal -1
Chelsea -3
Spurs -3
Southampton -5
I know people will say its only after two games, but I think Southampton should be excluded from this table this season and Everton included instead. Saints look so unprotected without Schneiderlin, and also have Europa League this season - which was Everton's main downfall last season incidentally.

Offline Michel

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2015, 06:50:50 pm »
I think Swansea is a more probable candidate than Everton.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2015, 06:52:26 pm »
I think Swansea is a more probable candidate than Everton.
If Everton lose Stones then I agree with you. Everton have a 15-20 goal striker though which gives them the edge imo.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2015, 06:57:42 pm »
If Everton lose Stones then I agree with you. Everton have a 15-20 goal striker though which gives them the edge imo.

Everton have Martinez and are a team that struggled against Watford a week ago. I agree about Southampton being removed but I wouldn't be adding anyone else in just yet
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2015, 07:05:12 pm »
Everton have Martinez and are a team that struggled against Watford a week ago. I agree about Southampton being removed but I wouldn't be adding anyone else in just yet
Yeah its quite borderline. I don't think Everton have any hope of breaking the Top 4 (they only did two seasons ago because of Moyes derailing United and Arsenal stumbling along), but I reckon they could get to around 60 points again with a good deal of luck.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2015-16
« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2015, 07:38:10 pm »
There's no rush to replace Southampton.  Let's see after 10 rounds.