Topic: To DM Or Not To DM

[lastbaron]

But playing with neither a DM or some Pirlo-esque DLP and instead just having "runners" or 2 box to box guys is AIDS.

Having 2 b2b players with no DM to offer depth can be very effective combined with a high pressure tactic, which i think suits our current squad.

           GK
RB   CB    CB  LB

RM   CM   CM  LM
         
           AM
           
           ST

Of course the tactic should be able to change to suit each game's needs, so having a couple DMs is necessary.

[mkferdy]

For me personally it comes down to how we wish to play without the ball as a side as well as style of play. One thing that was clear last season and every season in my opinion since Rodgers has been here other than when we switched to 3 at the back is how easy our midfield can be bypassed centrally which is a cause for concern. 

I personally feel its more about attitude and balance. If we take Chelsea as an example they never set up with two attacking full backs. They will have one that gets forward while the other is more conservative staying back leaving a defensive 3 which are protected by Matic so any team looking to counter quickly will have to do it exceptionally well.

Without the ball Chelsea will sit deep plugging up gaps which leaving teams facing a blue bus  . With the likes of Terry who is strong in the air any long ball forward can be dealt with. When they are in the lead and are overrun they will sacrifice an attacking player and add the like if Mikel to solidify central midfield. Both of Chelsea's wide players will also work exceptionally hard without the ball so as the full back become narrow they will protect the space out side. There is a real enthusiasm towards defending throughout the side and that comes from the manager. 

Having a defensive midfielder without an overall balance will just be plugging a hole. It really does depend for me how Rodgers wants to set up. If we are looking at a slow possession based 4-3-3 he may see the defensive midfielder more as a play maker than a traditional stopper as it were with the likes of Henderson and Milner apply the pressure without the ball. However unless the defensive 4 are  prepared to push up and pressure also things can become disjointed and a decent passing side will be able to work there away around our midfield 3 running at our defenders as Skrtel tends to drop off. Also sides that are prepared to play it long over one of our advancing full backs can leave our central defenders exposed. We also don't have a keeper that is comfortable coming off his line so again things become disjointed.

If we are looking at the diamond midfield then again for me it will be more of a playmaker with the likes of Milner and Henderson providing the pressure without the ball. If we are looking at 3 at the back then I hope we look to utilise a traditional DM as it allows Can to move forward with the ball and still keep 3 at the back providing balance and  more protection against the counter attack.   

[SwordInYourGut]

I do think we would be better off with a DM. If you look across most teams, I think you would find a general tendency would be that results are way better when their best DM is fit and playing as compared to otherwise. I know liverpool have a superior record with Lucas in the team than without, United's form drops off the cliff every time Carrick gets injured, Schniederlin is praised to high heavens but it is when Wanyama was missing that Southampton looked way off the pace and Borussia Dortmund look twice the team when Sven Bender is playing at his best. The DM at a top team can't be a pure destroyer, that is why using Pepe or Ramos there fails pretty spectacularly for Real. It has to be someone like a Modric or a Mascherano, players with excellent mobility, a tigerish tenacity to win balls, and yet great ability to dictate the tempo with short, sharp forward passes. The right DM could make us a top 4 certainty, a run of the mill DM would be a waste of space.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

It has to be someone like a Modric or a Mascherano, players with excellent mobility, a tigerish tenacity to win balls, and yet great ability to dictate the tempo with short, sharp forward passes.

Never really saw Modric as a DM.
Mascherano mainly plays CB for Barcelona, I would have thought Busquets was their DM, as he sets the tempo for them with his passing which is better than Mascherano's IMO. He's also very maneuverable in tight spaces, which sets him apart from many others.

[exiledinyorkshire]

We don't play multifunctional players anymore. We seem to prefer to take players, play them out of position and hope it clicks. Nothing multi-functional about that.

there are only 3 things you can do when you have the football, pass it, move with it or shoot. Being a multifunctional player with the ball means you are competent with all three of those skills. Lucas has great qualities without the ball, but on the ball? he is limited. A midfield three of players that are all competent in all three of those things, plus capable of high energy and good defensive work off the ball is the ideal in my opinion. Can Milner and Henderson give you that. Henderson perhaps being the weakest of the three. We don't want to get into the situation where we are essentially playing a very limited footballer as a stopper in the middle of the par. Matic is a multifunctional player, Coquelin is a multifunctional player. They just take on a defensive responsibility over and above the other midfielders.

[Sangria]

there are only 3 things you can do when you have the football, pass it, move with it or shoot. Being a multifunctional player with the ball means you are competent with all three of those skills. Lucas has great qualities without the ball, but on the ball? he is limited. A midfield three of players that are all competent in all three of those things, plus capable of high energy and good defensive work off the ball is the ideal in my opinion. Can Milner and Henderson give you that. Henderson perhaps being the weakest of the three. We don't want to get into the situation where we are essentially playing a very limited footballer as a stopper in the middle of the par. Matic is a multifunctional player, Coquelin is a multifunctional player. They just take on a defensive responsibility over and above the other midfielders.

Spearing is a multifunctional player, etc.

[Kopenhagen]

Mascherano mainly plays CB for Barcelona, I would have thought Busquets was their DM, as he sets the tempo for them with his passing which is better than Mascherano's IMO. He's also very maneuverable in tight spaces, which sets him apart from many others.

Mascherano was brilliant as a holding midfielder for Argentina in the World Cup, with the exact things SwordInYourGut mentioned, though. His passing is very underrated.

[leivapool]

there are only 3 things you can do when you have the football, pass it, move with it or shoot. Being a multifunctional player with the ball means you are competent with all three of those skills. Lucas has great qualities without the ball, but on the ball? he is limited. A midfield three of players that are all competent in all three of those things, plus capable of high energy and good defensive work off the ball is the ideal in my opinion. Can Milner and Henderson give you that. Henderson perhaps being the weakest of the three. We don't want to get into the situation where we are essentially playing a very limited footballer as a stopper in the middle of the par. Matic is a multifunctional player, Coquelin is a multifunctional player. They just take on a defensive responsibility over and above the other midfielders.

Genuine question,  do you actually closely watch what Lucas does when he's on the ball,  particularly under pressure?

Further,  what do you mean by limited on the ball?  I can only assume you mean Holllywood balls.  Lucas is not limited on the ball in the slightest,  he's one of our best passers.  Hits the ball quickly,  in to feet and in such a way that the receiver is instantly able to control the pass.  Maybe because he does it with so little fuss and so quickly you miss it?

Can is one of our worst passers,  takes too many touches,  doesn't like being under pressure and goes for the long ball way too often.  Hendo has  a complete inability to turn on the ball so can only pass the way he's facing.  How you can say Lucas is limited but Can and Hendo aren't is baffling when the reality is quite the opposite

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Which top teams actually play with a "defensive" midfielder these days?

I can't think of many destroyers left in the game.

Are they just not currently part of modern tactics? I'm sure they will back one day, but today? No.

Barcelona and Busquets, who is like a modern day Makelele. Chelsea and Matic. Madrid when they had Alonso and now Bayern when they play him. Heynckes did with Javi Martinez.

I don't know if he plans to play Can in his natural position of DM, becuase that's where he should be played and he's looked good there. Him and Lucas is decent enough and I would hope is the reason why we've not been linked to any DMs

[Solomon Grundy]

Mascherano was brilliant as a holding midfielder for Argentina in the World Cup, with the exact things SwordInYourGut mentioned, though. His passing is very underrated.

Your absolutely right. Mascherano is boss. I'd love to have him back with us.

So criminally underrated by some Liverpool fans when he played for us.

[Chakan]

Your absolutely right. Mascherano is boss. I'd love to have him back with us.

So criminally underrated by some Liverpool fans when he played for us.

Really? Don't know many people who didn't think he was boss. Least people i'd want to talk to.

Supporters are a strange breed.

[Solomon Grundy]

Really? Don't know many people who didn't think he was boss. Least people i'd want to talk to.

Supporters are a strange breed.

I argued with a fair few on here down the years who didn't really rate him, thought he was limited and that he didn't warrant a place in the side mate.

[Chakan]

I argued with a fair few on here down the years who didn't really rate him, thought he was limited and that he didn't warrant a place in the side mate.

Crazy.

Anyone who thought that really shouldn't be worth talking to.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Spearing is a multifunctional player, etc.

Ha ha  ha.

Its true though. Does Lucas dribble much or shoot much? If not he is limited. Very good with out the ball. But limited with it.

I suppose that could be totally down to the instructions for the role he is asked to play but I'm not entirely sure that's the reason he limits his game.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Genuine question,  do you actually closely watch what Lucas does when he's on the ball,  particularly under pressure?

Further,  what do you mean by limited on the ball?  I can only assume you mean Holllywood balls.  Lucas is not limited on the ball in the slightest,  he's one of our best passers.  Hits the ball quickly,  in to feet and in such a way that the receiver is instantly able to control the pass.  Maybe because he does it with so little fuss and so quickly you miss it?

Can is one of our worst passers,  takes too many touches,  doesn't like being under pressure and goes for the long ball way too often.  Hendo has  a complete inability to turn on the ball so can only pass the way he's facing.  How you can say Lucas is limited but Can and Hendo aren't is baffling when the reality is quite the opposite

Simply because Can has an amazing ability to break at speed with the ball, he can drive into open space in front of him to really good effect. Henderson also, and he has goals in him. Ie they are multi functional in as much as they are capable of doing any one of the three things you need to do when you have the ball pass, dribble or shoot. I'm not knocking Lucas he does what he does well but he isn't as multi functional as the other three. Probably better with out the ball than them, but that then makes him a purely DM, which Rodgers doesn't see to favour.

[GregCharrua]

I'm among those frustrated by the 'lack of playing identity' but is there a pattern to the madness?

2012/13: Possession until after Sturridge/Coutinho arrive, where we moved towards counter attack. When Suarez was banned, we played counter attack. No high pressing, we dropped off and pressured in our own half all season.

2013/14: Possession until near Christmas when the diamond and Gerrard-Pirlo took the league by storm. High pressure (not really pressing) and lightning quick transition to attack.

2014/15: Possession until after the new year when we moved to the 343. Then using high pressure and trying to move the ball at a high tempo into attack, though not as swashbuckling as the diamond.

Possession in the start of seasons, moving towards a higher tempo, high pressure, counter attacking (but still playing football) football for the second half of the season.

Combine his periodization training... it looks like Rodgers ideal is to use possession football to control the pace of games while the team is still getting fit, then transition into a more aggressive football later in the season. Only problem is, we've not been any good at playing the slow-tempo possession football, ever!

Anyway, this leads me to my comment on the thread's topic: are we never after world-class DM because we aren't looking to play the slow-tempo possession football for more than a few months of the season, before moving into a high press/pressure system when fit? In the latter system Lucas, or a Busquets or Martinez, wouldn't fit in as well with what Rodgers wants to do, would they? Although it still raises the question of why Lucas wasn't used in the start of the season...

[Suareznumber7]

Which top teams actually play with a "defensive" midfielder these days?

I can't think of many destroyers left in the game.

Are they just not currently part of modern tactics? I'm sure they will back one day, but today? No.

The role of a DM is more a deep lying playmaker these days.  Think of Pirlo, Busquets, Gerrard.  They are not your typical Mascherano Defensive destroyers but more of players that have the ability to start an attack and keep an attack ticking. 

[Suareznumber7]

Chelsea play with Matic, United play with Carrick , City don't really, Barca play with Busquets, Real had Kroos although not much of a DM, Arsenal wish they had a DM.

Matic is really the only one of those three that can be classed as a typical Defensive Midfielder.  The others are players that are there to for attacking purposes. 

[mkferdy]

Possession in the start of seasons, moving towards a higher tempo, high pressure, counter attacking (but still playing football) football for the second half of the season.

Combine his periodization training... it looks like Rodgers ideal is to use possession football to control the pace of games while the team is still getting fit, then transition into a more aggressive football later in the season. Only problem is, we've not been any good at playing the slow-tempo possession football, ever!

GregCharrua an interesting post.

I wonder whether Rodgers will risk the start of the season playing in the same manner or if he will deviate slightly from his fitness/training methods in the hope he gets off to a good start next year as a slow start will lead to immense pressure?

[Chakan]

Matic is really the only one of those three that can be classed as a typical Defensive Midfielder.  The others are players that are there to for attacking purposes. 

Carrick is in no way there for his attacking ability. Busquets neither.

[GregCharrua]

Carrick is in no way there for his attacking ability. Busquets neither.

They are there for their passing.

[Chakan]

They are there for their passing.

The whole Barca team is there for their passing cept Pique.

Busquets sits infront of Masch. First line of defense.

Carrick sits infront of their back 4, and there's a reason they concede goals when he's out.

They're not destroyers in the Masch sense, but they're duties are defensive in nature. Not like Lucas who is a pure DM.

[legendkiller]

They are there for their passing.

Busquets is there for his decision making as well . Does he sit in front of the 2 isolated CBs when Barca attack or does he drop in as a third CB . Basically how do I slow down this counter so we can get our defensive shape sorted . I think he is best in the world at it but would be lost in a lets say Chelsea midfield where its counter attacking and conceding the pitch and ball to the opposition . Matic would definately be lost in a Barca system or just end up as a CB .

[Passmaster Molby]

It is absolutely imperative that you have at least one midfielder who has the primary function of protecting the defence. To ignore this position is negligent and fool hardy. A player of this kind helps to bring the side some balance and stability which is essential in a league as strong as the English Premier League.

[paisley1977]

It is absolutely imperative that you have at least one midfielder who has the primary function of protecting the defence. To ignore this position is negligent and fool hardy. A player of this kind helps to bring the side some balance and stability which is essential in a league as strong as the English Premier League.

Even Arsenal look more solid now Coquelin is been used more.

[Gnurglan]

I'm for playing with a defensive midfielder. In particular when we play better sides, I think it's wise to have one, for better stability. The way I see it, we need to be able to rely on different things. We can't always rely on goalscoring. Defensive midfield is an area we could improve in, to make the team stronger.

[Sangria]

Ha ha  ha.

Its true though. Does Lucas dribble much or shoot much? If not he is limited. Very good with out the ball. But limited with it.

I suppose that could be totally down to the instructions for the role he is asked to play but I'm not entirely sure that's the reason he limits his game.

Try playing in midfield as a specialist passer. If you have any experience of that, you'll see that specialist passers of the kind you idolise, such as the Charlie Adam who was going to replace Lucas (in your humble opinion), are overrated. Passing is about more than the long ball, especially if you play at the base.

[DanA]

We've got a decent DM in Lucas and solid backup in Can. I'm all for upgrading on Lucas but not at the expense of more pressing areas. We need to get players that help bridge the gap from 50 goals we scored last season to the 100 we scored the season before. That's not going to be cheap or easy, we also need to improve fullback (RB) and keeper. If there is money left over after our plans to improve these areas then by all means get a DM.

I want a destroyer type DM too, the passing side is important by secondary.

[Obviously]

I'm for playing with a defensive midfielder. In particular when we play better sides, I think it's wise to have one, for better stability. The way I see it, we need to be able to rely on different things. We can't always rely on goalscoring. Defensive midfield is an area we could improve in, to make the team stronger.

I totally agree. It gives the attacking players a platform to build on, it helps the CBs, its easier to attack with the FBs, and it a great option to have off the bench if you need play for the result towards the end of a match. Last season showed that we need to improve both the attack and defense, and i think a more balanced midfield would be key to doing both at the same time.

 

[sattapaartridge]

I like the idea of going diamond next year:

Clyne  Ilori  Sahko  Moreno

              Can

Henderson   Milner

           Coutinho

      Ings       Sturridge


I think Ings/Milner are hard working players and will work tirelessly to get the ball and to move it quick. I would like to see Markovic and Lallana force themselves into the side. We will need some big quality to make up for the time Sturridge will be sidelined. 

[Draex]

My hope is we are moving towards the German Machine model.. 3 midfielders all who can attack, defend, press, pass, score, assist etc. Complete Box to Box midfielders who work as a cohesive unit, a fluid 3 that if 2 go up to attack 1 drops and covers the space left.

Rodgers doesn't traditionally like role-specific type players, so it could be argued this is his aim for the team.

Henderson Can Milner etc.

It would go a long way to explaining the want for someone like Kovacic over a Kondogbia (my still prefered target.)

[Suareznumber7]

Carrick is in no way there for his attacking ability. Busquets neither.

You are vastly underrating those players influence in attack for their respective teams. 

[killer-heels]

I like the idea of going diamond next year:

Clyne  Ilori  Sahko  Moreno

              Can

Henderson   Milner

           Coutinho

      Ings       Sturridge


I think Ings/Milner are hard working players and will work tirelessly to get the ball and to move it quick. I would like to see Markovic and Lallana force themselves into the side. We will need some big quality to make up for the time Sturridge will be sidelined. 

Looks a bit shit that. Skrtel will be there and we definitely need some quality in defensive midfield and up front. If we start with Ings and Can then Rodgers pretty well should clear most of his desk as he won't last long.

[Draex]

Why is it that top managers want role specific players?

It's pretty simple, football evolves as a game.. The Spain that won the world cup with technical, position specific, tiki-taki football was demolished by the German Manchine 4 years later.

I'm not saying this is Rodger's way, I'm suggesting it's how I'd love us to set up. Watching Germany was watching the future.. Interchanging and fluid players, all capable of all aspects of the game.. Athletes with technical ability etc.

[sattapaartridge]

Looks a bit shit that. Skrtel will be there and we definitely need some quality in defensive midfield and up front. If we start with Ings and Can then Rodgers pretty well should clear most of his desk as he won't last long.

Clearly you dont rate Can? For me, he's next season's DM.

[fowlermagic]

Just add a wee bite to our midfield, even to our team as a whole as while we all groaned at the famous bite incident, what you saw in Suarez and his desire to do anything to win is now sadly lacking. The team is definitely lacking in fight & bottle and the way our defense has imploded on itself during various games, a CM encompassing some Souness like determination with a fair amount of skill in hand would not go amiss. The way Moreno, Lovren, Johnso & Co have gone MIA cannot be overcome by just adding a DM into the side. Even a Mascherano would be stretched to breaking limit with the wet paper bag defensive unit we have fielded way too often.

I like the look of a Lucas - Milner - Henderson type midfield as you have some decent goal threat there while the legs to chase back when required. It can still be improved on as honestly I will be surprised of those 3 / our current CM can take us to a top 4 finish nevermind a title. A worldclass holding midfielder who can hold the tiller of the ship would be wonderful as he could steer us into better waters while at the same time eek out a clean sheet from what we have in the back.....if we also fix certain issues in the back.

The issue for me is we dont have a solid back 4 right now which requires us to go down the 3 CD route thus how do you fit a DM into the side? Any backline of 4 you could list in our squad right now would still drive any world class hold midfielder bonkers. Moreno? Lovren? A combo of Skrtel & Sakho? Flannagan on crutches...feck me its strife with issues back there but if we can get a Matic type in there somewhere it would be a start to the fix but right now Brendan Needs To Fix It.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Why is it that top managers play 4-4-2?
Why is it that top managers don't play with two holding defensive midfielders?
Why is it that top managers play with a big man and a little man up front?
Why is it that top managers play man-to-man marking, not zonal?
Why is it that top managers ... blah blah.

Football changes. What brings success in football changes. Managers' preferences change. Just because some "top managers" do it one way, it doesn't mean there isn't another effective way of doing it. Football would be very fucking boring if everyone played the same way. Look at the comparison between Barca and Real. Two top teams. Wildly different styles. And remember, it wasn't too long ago that every man and his dog were criticising Rafa as "too defensive" and "the top clubs don't play with two DMs" with Alonso and Mascherano in midfield.

Good times. Good times.

If I could tattoo this on KH's backside, I would....  Nice Rhi.

[Draex]

If I could tattoo this on KH's backside, I would....  Nice Rhi.

I think there is a long list of people wanting to see KHs backside..

[Trendisnotdestiny]

I think there is a long list of people wanting to see KHs backside..

Over 1 Million Sold   

[I-was-watching-it-on-Sky]

Clearly you dont rate Can? For me, he's next season's DM.

I really rate Can, I'd be wary about playing him as a DM. I think his instinct is to go forward, be on the front foot. If he were a DM would he'd be getting pulled out of position and leaving the CB's exposed and them facing up to free running mid-field is what did for us in the first 1/3rd of the season.