Author Topic: To DM Or Not To DM (Read 100663 times)

Asam · « **on:** June 2, 2015, 08:18:14 pm »

Can't see a relevant thread on this topic and it seems to be one of the most contentious points about Rodgers so I thought I would open a round table style thread, I have some questions (I'm sure others do too)

First off, looking at the premier league teams in living memory that have won the league title, I can't think of too many (if any) sides that didn't have a defensive or holding midfielder, based on our needs;

Do you think we should have a true defensive midfielder? if so why?

or are the concerns about such a players lack of expansive passing ability too much of a compromise to the manager's vision?

In an ideal world, what attributes would Rodgers most want to see in this position?

how do you factor in the technical ability of our current back 4 when it comes to thinking about the best option for this position?

what kind of player do you think we most need now? an Alonso/Gerrard style quarter back or a Mascherano style terrier/insurance policy?

Draex · « **Reply #1 on:** June 2, 2015, 08:19:21 pm »

If Rodgers ignores this again then we will be back to square one. It doesn't have to be a Mascherano.. It has to be someone to screen the defence, otherwise he will leave his defence exposed again.. Lessons have to be learnt.

killer-heels · « **Reply #2 on:** June 2, 2015, 08:21:15 pm »

At first it seemed to make sense about having multifunctional players. But nearly every top team and top manager play defensive midfielders so it makes you wonder why they are wrong and we apparently are right?

HighSix · « **Reply #3 on:** June 2, 2015, 08:27:44 pm »

Buy one & play Coutinho in the middle next to him... Just like how Coquelin allows Carzola to be so influential in the center.

Fromola · « **Reply #4 on:** June 2, 2015, 08:33:12 pm »

Rodgers doesn't want one so it's pointless.

He'll probably put Milner there.

Fiasco · « **Reply #5 on:** June 2, 2015, 08:33:58 pm »

It doesn't have to be someone amazing. Lucas isn't the answer because he struggles to stay fit and I'm afraid Allen isn't good enough to be a long-term option there. Can, maybe in time. It's something that most of the fanbase have been screaming out for for a long time now and it's something that should be addressed this summer.

HardworkDedication · « **Reply #6 on:** June 2, 2015, 08:35:45 pm »

Of course we need one. I remember people dismissing it a couple of years ago. Despite Lucas being a quality player we can't rely on him.

GregCharrua · « **Reply #7 on:** June 2, 2015, 08:36:08 pm »

Allen-Milner-Hendo rotating 3 in the middle I'd imagine. Or Coutinho for Allen depending on the opposition. Don't think we need a straight up destroyer, but the depends on the team playing well and actually pressing. Next season with Milner/Hendo/Allen/Lallana/Coutinho/Ibe etc we might actually be able to pull off a high press... oh wait, Migs is still in the net with Skrtel in front of him....

rscanderlech · « **Reply #8 on:** June 2, 2015, 08:38:54 pm »

Quote from: Draex on June 2, 2015, 08:19:21 pm

If Rodgers ignores this again then we will be back to square one. It doesn't have to be a Mascherano.. It has to be someone to screen the defence, otherwise he will leave his defence exposed again.. Lessons have to be learnt.

He really cant let his theoretical/philosophical stubbornness get in the way of this increasingly apparent fact that you pretty much have to get a DM or a player who may be box-to-box but is tipped toward the defensive end of the box-to-box spectrum in the Premier League and in any case if you haven't got world class possession football and top defenders (we certainly don't have either of those).

If we had a world class midfield that could dominate the midfield in 90% of matches or more, then fair enough. But we haven't.

alvaro · « **Reply #9 on:** June 2, 2015, 08:40:33 pm »

We obviously need a DM based on our results with Lucas playing and our results with Lucas not playing. You dont need to be an expert just some common sense.

i) All the teams above us have DM.
ii) Our results are much better when we play with a DM.

Its simple logic yet Im not holding my breath.

Kopenhagen · « **Reply #10 on:** June 2, 2015, 08:51:11 pm »

We'd probably be better off with a "controller," or "deep-lying playmaker." I mean, we're never getting a Momo Sissoko-esuqe, glorified-CB-in-MF-type (not that I'd want one). But yeah, we definitely need to give the defence more protection, particularly with the fullbacks being asked to bomb forward, though I suspect it'll be Allen/Milner/Henderson in a sort of rotating three, with Can as deputy, as GregCharrua mentioned; or, alternatively, Henderson and Milner sitting, with Coutinho/Lallana as the '10.' I don't particularly believe Lallana or Coutinho will work great out wide if we sign Benteke, either.

Suggestions? I don't know, maybe Krychowiak as more of an athletic defensive-midfielder (scored some goals this season too); as a "controller"/"deep-lying playmaker," I honestly don't know of anyone who could suit us, really.

rscanderlech · « **Reply #11 on:** June 2, 2015, 08:54:39 pm »

Quote from: Kopenhagen on June 2, 2015, 08:51:11 pm

I honestly don't know of anyone who could suit us, really.

That's because we don't know what Rodgers wants in that position. I have a suspicion that his dream player in that role would actually be Pirlo but a little younger, or Joe Allen.

But Rodgers's problem appears to be that he has big theoretical ideas which are too extreme to work in reality. He has to make some practical decisions. In player selection, he has done so by putting Lucas back in the side and into that position. In recruitment, we must do the same.

Chakan · « **Reply #12 on:** June 2, 2015, 09:24:26 pm »

Think we need to keep Lucas at all costs and then buy a backup for him when he gets injured. If the 3 years has shown anything its that our defense is a leaky cauldron. Lucas plugs a hole, and helps keep those numbers down. It's when he's not playing that we have problems.

We either need to be scoring 3/4 goals a game to offset that or we need to solidify the defense. Lucas does that job, it needs all the help it can get.

KingKolo · « **Reply #13 on:** June 2, 2015, 09:29:26 pm »

Lucas always looks good in the role once he's had a run of games. The problem is he's generally a bit slow and sloppy whilst he's getting up to fitness and he does pick up the injuries.

Do all teams need one? Not always. But it's good to have the option in the squad.

G1 Jockey 4(betfair) · « **Reply #14 on:** June 2, 2015, 09:35:55 pm »

in a nutshell with the way we play our fullbacks we need 2 dms a lot.

having a sole dm is pointless.
having a dm(lucas) with hendo next to him helps cover teams breaking on us better.

a sole dm just means a team needs to break either side to negate the chance of us winning it back early...the dm will naturally have to back off.

its a case of having too many attackers is a negative.

balance is key.

NGreat · « **Reply #15 on:** June 2, 2015, 09:37:03 pm »

Quote from: alvaro on June 2, 2015, 08:40:33 pm

We obviously need a DM based on our results with Lucas playing and our results with Lucas not playing. You dont need to be an expert just some common sense.

Yeah, that was proven when we went on our best run of the season straight after Lucas got injured.

Haggis36 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 2, 2015, 09:39:10 pm »

The idea of getting in a DM gets discussed ad nauseum on here despite the fact that we have three years of evidence to suggest Rodgers doesn't value that particular position and would much prefer that his deepest midfielder was more of a playmaker. In a side that is strong defensively I don't think it's as much of an issue, but that is not the case here. Unless we start playing high-line, pressing football, playing without a defensively strong midfielder in front of the defence is always going to see is conceding lots of goals.

We've overcome those particular weaknesses in the past by going gung-ho in the other direction, and scoring shit loads of goals.

In terms of which is the more feasible and easily attainable, I think a DM is a better plan than trying to get in mega prolific scorers again. But it ain't gonna happen.

Red Sea · « **Reply #17 on:** June 2, 2015, 09:41:56 pm »

A more physical and less timid version of Joe Allen I see it as. Who it may I don't know, I'm sure Brendan would love a DM would could fire a ball through the opposition's pressing into Coutinho. He would also like a DM to execute a perfectly timed challenge on Hazard in the 88th minute.
I remember AVB's porto playing with a rotating midfield 3, sometimes leaving the back 4 without a shield. He quickly arrived at the conclusion that this wasn't a feasible idea in England due to the league's frantic nature, he stuck in Essien I think to fill that gap.
Will Brendan do the same? For such an intelligent man he does seem to have a blind spot to particular scenarios.
I would suggest unless the near perfect ''DM'' for Brendan falls into our possession he won't make the position a priority, or treat it with the reverence RAWK demands.

Asam · « **Reply #18 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:13:46 pm »

I think the lack of aggression we sometimes have in midfield when we are bullied is also a symptom of the system and the mindset in the squad, sometimes a player with lesser technical ability adds to the squad through his will and determination and makes the team better overall

In a way the DM not only signifies a potential tactical need but perhaps another way to look at it is are we, as a team, really up for winning the physical battle? the team lacks a driving force in the middle of the park, I'm not sure having a play maker solves that problem, or is even needed when you have Coutinho and Lallana in the forward positions, unless that midfielder is Souness is his pomp who could do both.

TepidT2O · « **Reply #19 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:15:18 pm »

Which top teams actually play with a "defensive" midfielder these days?

I can't think of many destroyers left in the game.

Are they just not currently part of modern tactics? I'm sure they will back one day, but today? No.

Motty · « **Reply #20 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:15:46 pm »

Has Mascherano got a brother?

Seriously though we just need someone who can read the game like Lucas, turn on the ball like Allen but with a more physical presence and speed than those two. Not that hard to find I don't think.

Chakan · « **Reply #21 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:22:57 pm »

Quote from: Tepid water on June 2, 2015, 10:15:18 pm

Which top teams actually play with a "defensive" midfielder these days?

I can't think of many destroyers left in the game.

Are they just not currently part of modern tactics? I'm sure they will back one day, but today? No.

Chelsea play with Matic, United play with Carrick , City don't really, Barca play with Busquets, Real had Kroos although not much of a DM, Arsenal wish they had a DM.

RideTheWalrus · « **Reply #22 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:31:34 pm »

Quote from: Chakan on June 2, 2015, 10:22:57 pm

Chelsea play with Matic, United play with Carrick , City don't really, Barca play with Busquets, Real had Kroos although not much of a DM, Arsenal wish they had a DM.

City have Fernando when he plays. Even Fernandinho to a point.

PSG have Verratti/Motta.

Most teams use a defensive midfielder, or something of that sort.

We won't get far without one. I really like Lucas, but there is better out there.

Studgotelli · « **Reply #23 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:37:46 pm »

Quote from: Tepid water on June 2, 2015, 10:15:18 pm

Which top teams actually play with a "defensive" midfielder these days?

I can't think of many destroyers left in the game.

Are they just not currently part of modern tactics? I'm sure they will back one day, but today? No.

Lol wow.

Barcelona, Chelsea, Arsenal, City, PSG, Atletico to name a few.

exiledinyorkshire · « **Reply #24 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:41:19 pm »

Can all day long.

Can Henderson and Milner.

Coutinho a target man and a winger on the other side. Or even origi if he is a wide forward, haven't seen him enough to comment.

433. 442 diamond. The diamond allows the left and right points to cover the full backs.

Absolutely has to nail the cb pairing if he is ditching the 3 at the back though.

It's year zero for Rodgers system as far as I'm concerned, the good news is 90 % of the squad will be familiar with his methods going into the season! he won't be scratching his head about unique players he has inherited and trying to fit them in. I expect a solid start. Possibly with Ings being a pleasant surprise.

HighSix · « **Reply #25 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:42:12 pm »

Quote from: Chakan on June 2, 2015, 10:22:57 pm

Chelsea play with Matic, United play with Carrick , City don't really, Barca play with Busquets, Real had Kroos although not much of a DM, Arsenal wish they had a DM.

They are an example of what a difference one makes & its possible to fit in a more limited player.

Coquelins stats compare with the best in the league & is the leader in most key DM stats.

TepidT2O · « **Reply #26 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:43:01 pm »

Quote from: Studgotelli on June 2, 2015, 10:37:46 pm

Lol wow.

Barcelona, Chelsea, Arsenal, City, PSG, Atletico to name a few.

I wouldn't agree.... They aren't pure defensive midfielders..

Holding midfielders maybe but that's not the same thing. A defensive midfielder is there to stop the opposition, break up their play...
You list teams who have someone playing there who is more of a redistributer, a cog in the wheel...

I think we all need to agree what a defensive midfielder is first.....

RideTheWalrus · « **Reply #27 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:44:44 pm »

Quote from: exiledinyorkshire on June 2, 2015, 10:41:19 pm

Can all day long.

Can Henderson and Milner.

Coutinho a target man and a winger on the other side. Or even origi if he is a wide forward, haven't seen him enough to comment.

433. 442 diamond. The diamond allows the left and right points to cover the full backs.

Absolutely has to nail the cb pairing if he is ditching the 3 at the back though.

It's year zero for Rodgers system as far as I'm concerned, the good news is 90 % of the squad will be familiar with his methods going into the season! he won't be scratching his head about unique players he has inherited and trying to fit them in. I expect a solid start. Possibly with Ings being a pleasant surprise.

I really like Can, but I'm not sure he's cut to be a DM. We might run into the same issues Arsenal used to with Song, where even though they had a 'DM' he was always wanting to get forwards and attack and leave us vulnerable.

Red Sea · « **Reply #28 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:46:22 pm »

Quote from: Studgotelli on June 2, 2015, 10:37:46 pm

Lol wow.

Barcelona, Chelsea, Arsenal, City, PSG, Atletico to name a few.

Those guys can play though. They transcend the role of the dm in a way.

Studgotelli · « **Reply #29 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:48:22 pm »

Quote from: Tepid water on June 2, 2015, 10:43:01 pm

I wouldn't agree.... They aren't pure defensive midfielders..

Holding midfielders maybe but that's not the same thing. A defensive midfielder is there to stop the opposition, break up their play...
You list teams who have someone playing there who is more of a redistributer, a cog in the wheel...

I think we all need to agree what a defensive midfielder is first.....

If FSG are truly trying to copy Arsenal then they should look at how Coquelin improved their team over Arteta who is a deep lying playmaker.

You then also have Busquets, Matic, Fernando/Fernandinho etc who you would say are there to break up play first screen the back 4 and then keep the ball ticking over. All midfielders will have a varied range of roles though no?

Asam · « **Reply #30 on:** June 2, 2015, 10:58:24 pm »

Quote from: Tepid water on June 2, 2015, 10:43:01 pm

I wouldn't agree.... They aren't pure defensive midfielders..

Holding midfielders maybe but that's not the same thing. A defensive midfielder is there to stop the opposition, break up their play...
You list teams who have someone playing there who is more of a redistributer, a cog in the wheel...

I think we all need to agree what a defensive midfielder is first.....

Look everyone could define the role slightly differently, the point is they have a primary job, which is to offer their defence protection, some teams happen to have a player who is more capable at circulating the ball than others, some teams want someone who has better recovery speed, the requirements are defined by the strengths and weaknesses of the particular side and how capable the defenders are in a 1VS1 situation

RK7 · « **Reply #31 on:** June 2, 2015, 11:32:46 pm »

Quote from: SkySportsNews on June 2, 2015, 08:35:45 pm

Of course we need one. I remember people dismissing it a couple of years ago. Despite Lucas being a quality player we can't rely on him.

I remember that discussion, I think it was suggested Kolo would be an able back up!

We need one and fast, Arsenal look a completely different proposition since Coquelin went into their side, he does his job and the attacking players do theirs,the balance is almost perfect.

legendkiller · « **Reply #32 on:** June 3, 2015, 01:09:19 am »

Quote from: exiledinyorkshire on June 2, 2015, 10:41:19 pm

Can all day long.

433. 442 diamond. The diamond allows the left and right points to cover the full backs.

Absolutely has to nail the cb pairing if he is ditching the 3 at the back though.

It's year zero for Rodgers system as far as I'm concerned, the good news is 90 % of the squad will be familiar with his methods going into the season! he won't be scratching his head about unique players he has inherited and trying to fit them in. I expect a solid start. Possibly with Ings being a pleasant surprise.

I agree with this especially the CB pairing and whater its 433 or 442diamond even 343 . If it is 433 and both full backs giving the width( which i think Rogers prefer ) we need two pacey CB s and a great decision making Def Mid or deep lying playmaker or regista or whatever he is going to be called . Stop conceding on transitions , set plays , human error and we are half way there .

Melbred · « **Reply #33 on:** June 3, 2015, 01:12:44 am »

Most top sides don't even need a DM considering the strength of their respective defences, but they still choose to implement one of some sort.

We leak goals for fun, our defence is a shambles, and we choose not to use one, even though it's been clear we've needed one for years now.

Go figure.

I-was-watching-it-on-Sky · « **Reply #34 on:** June 3, 2015, 01:24:33 am »

Quote from: arab88 on June 3, 2015, 12:18:04 am

"...I hope Brendan understood his mistakes and will correct them this year..."

For me this is thee essential element if BR is going to stay. Learn from your mistakes...

I'm a big fan of Lucas, I think he's under valued both as a player and his overall contribution. We're much better with his style of contribution to the side and we need a more mobile version of him. BR needs to get his head on straight and sort this position...and we'll concede 20 less goals next season.

Trendisnotdestiny · « **Reply #35 on:** June 3, 2015, 02:46:45 am »

First, great thread idea Asam. Holymoly and I were complaining about this very thing (Kopenhagen too)!
Second, we might consider baby Masch ---- Romero (although there are lot of ideas to consider). Could Jetro Willems play there as well?
Anywho, as the mods have said, this is not about individual players but the idea of what a DM at Liverpool looks like.

So, it appears we are just scratching the surface of this question. Lets get more precise:

1. What does a top rate Defensive Midfielder do?
Role #1 - Detect, Destroy, Distribute
Role #2 - Organize the midfield, Protect Back 3/4, Big Communicator
Role #3 - Provide a Physical Presence (Wins Duels - Air, land, or sea (see the Tevez ass duel with Rio)
Role #4 - Changes Point of Attack - 1st Attacker & Reference Point for Possession (plays simply)
Role #5 - Helps GK/Def play out of the back, Shows into space, checks out of space
Role #6 - Delays Opponents Transitional Counters
Role #7 - Avoids getting stripped/pressed or losing ball in final third
Role #8 - Tracks runners trying to unbalance the defense
Role #9 - Falls into the CB role when needed seamlessly
Role #10 - Accomplished in tackle decision-making scenarios

2. What does Brendan want in a Defensive Midfielder? How does this jibe with his style of player and what he wants?

Fill in the blank ____________________________

3. Why might Brendan consider a defensive midfielder of old limited? What is he trying to accomplish --- mobility, fluidity and less stagnant positionality?

Before we can answer this thread's thesis question, we should really examine what Brendan has done and why he has done what he has. I certainly like some of the responses on this thread --- as there are some real studs I would love to see in red. But, we should delve into the reasons why managers utilize them and why others do not.

In one way, Matic might be more important to Chelsea than most anyone (Costa & Courtois notwithstanding). What other teams are driven by their protectors (Southampton? Arsenal got better when Coquillan started playing there).

ThePoolMan · « **Reply #36 on:** June 3, 2015, 04:15:46 am »

I would suggest that the DM's most important role apart from shielding the back four is to keep possession going in the midfield and to start and interlink the attack. Lucas does both those roles very well. That both facilitates the attack and relieves pressure on the defence. I am not sure if Rodgers adequately values those attributes in his system and perhaps that is why his teams are so porous in conceding goals...

ThePoolMan · « **Reply #37 on:** June 3, 2015, 04:18:30 am »

Quote from: holymoly on June 2, 2015, 09:39:10 pm

The idea of getting in a DM gets discussed ad nauseum on here despite the fact that we have three years of evidence to suggest Rodgers doesn't value that particular position and would much prefer that his deepest midfielder was more of a playmaker. In a side that is strong defensively I don't think it's as much of an issue, but that is not the case here. Unless we start playing high-line, pressing football, playing without a defensively strong midfielder in front of the defence is always going to see is conceding lots of goals.

We've overcome those particular weaknesses in the past by going gung-ho in the other direction, and scoring shit loads of goals.

In terms of which is the more feasible and easily attainable, I think a DM is a better plan than trying to get in mega prolific scorers again. But it ain't gonna happen.

I do not think that the roles of destroyer and distributor or midfield controller are mutually exclusive. In fact Sissoko for example was not a particularly good DM because he was only good as a destroyer. Rodgers needs a proper DM who can defend and link up possession well and who is athletic and robust enough to compete physically and be mostly injury-free - whether he realises this or not.

sempi · « **Reply #38 on:** June 3, 2015, 04:40:18 am »

Quote from: GregCharrua on June 2, 2015, 08:36:08 pm

Allen-Milner-Hendo rotating 3 in the middle I'd imagine. Or Coutinho for Allen depending on the opposition. Don't think we need a straight up destroyer, but the depends on the team playing well and actually pressing. Next season with Milner/Hendo/Allen/Lallana/Coutinho/Ibe etc we might actually be able to pull off a high press... oh wait, Migs is still in the net with Skrtel in front of him....

If we put Henderson's energy to good use, we might get some joy. Molby had Mcmahon do the donkey work, maybe there's someone in the under 21s.

jooneyisdagod · « **Reply #39 on:** June 3, 2015, 08:28:27 am »

Quote from: killer_heels on June 2, 2015, 08:21:15 pm

At first it seemed to make sense about having multifunctional players. But nearly every top team and top manager play defensive midfielders so it makes you wonder why they are wrong and we apparently are right?

We don't play multifunctional players anymore. We seem to prefer to take players, play them out of position and hope it clicks. Nothing multi-functional about that.