Author Topic: Spanish Civil War  (Read 4327 times)

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Spanish Civil War
« on: September 16, 2014, 11:25:49 pm »
Not really sure what i'm doing starting this, but have been fascinated by the Spanish Civil War for a few years.

I spend a lot of time in Barcelona, which was the first city which experienced major bombing by air.

Decided this year to spend a bit of time away from Barcelona and in deepest Catalunya to include some Civil Wat stuff. WOW, been very humbled in what i have seen and experienced. Spent an hour today in the old village of Corbera d'ebre and was freezing due to the chill that went straight through me due to the place i was in.

I can understand the locals not wanting to comment as it's still very recent and raw to them, but they have all been great.

Current hotel owner, went through pictures in a book i have and was impressed and ignored the franco pictures. Young guy in bar tonight took name and author from same book to see if he can order in Catalan.

Very humbled. Some awful sites i have seen.

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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2014, 12:11:35 am »
Sounds interesting.

I read both Hugh Thomas's and Beevor's books a few years ago and it is a fascinating period of history, the place and time and the players involved, though ultimately incredibly sad.

Still, the people seem to have largely got over the Franco period and made a successful transition to a democracy, but I do wonder how many tensions and old animosities caused by that conflict are still simmering below the surface.

Several years ago, my son went over there on a one week or so Spanish exchange for his Spanish GCSE and stayed at some girls house, parents quite rich, had more than one home etc, and he was shocked to see a picture of Franco in one of their rooms.


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Offline kavah

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2014, 01:34:10 am »


Jack Jones, third from left, with fellow Liverpool members of the International Brigades. Photograph: Eamonn McCabe/Guardian


'For us, Spain wasn't an adventure: it was the battle against fascism'


Interview with Jack Jones:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/apr/26/jack-jones-spanish-civil-war

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2014, 06:41:55 am »


Still, the people seem to have largely got over the Franco period and made a successful transition to a democracy, but I do wonder how many tensions and old animosities caused by that conflict are still simmering below the surface.






Don't think they have, it isn't talked about at all by most, think it is still too raw for most of them.
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Offline Devon Red

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2014, 09:55:11 am »
I can really recommend Laurie Lee's books about his time in the International Brigade. As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning is about his first journey through Spain during the build up to war, and A Moment of War is about his experiences of the conflict. Both are beautiful and sad.

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 08:37:30 pm »
Change of plan this morning when i couldn't find one of the sites i wanted to see (no signage anywhere) so drove on to Belchite instead. Another battle destroyed town.
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Offline MOZ

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 01:05:58 pm »
I am currently living in a fairly remote village by the Sierra de Castril mountains in Andalucia. The locals here tell a story that I thought might be worth sharing.

At the start of the conflict, many of them headed to Madrid to fight for the Republicans including a man call Eduardo Fernandez, known locally as "El Maestrillo."

He was eventually captured and sent to prison where he remained for six years. After he was released, he relocated to Barcelona to educate himself. He later returned to the area and travelled around the local farms on a bicycle teaching people to read and write in exchange for basic provisions.

He became disillusioned with life under Franco and acquired a small plot of land deep in the mountain range where he built a small farmhouse. Today you can drive 9km up a dirt track into the mountains but you still have to hike for another half a day to get to the remote location of his Cortijo at an altitude of 1600m.

He started hunting and living off the land and became a virtual recluse. Local people would occasionally make the gruelling journey to visit him for a few days just to get reading or writing lessons, and he would sometimes appear in the village on the back of a donkey to get some beer and snuff.

A shepherd once found him ill in the mountains with pneumonia and called the civil guards who took him to hospital in Granada. He quickly escaped from the hospital and was soon spotted back in the mountains. He even dug a grave by his house and left a bag of cement next to it so if he was ever found dead, he could be buried there and then.

He remained in the moutains until he was 96 years old and virtually blind. He was eventually found ill again and taken to hospital where he passed away about 15 years ago.

I have been to the location of his house and it is a really tough hike and extremely remote. Today you can drive the first 9km and then hike the rest so it would hard to imagine what doing the whole journey on foot with a donkey would have been like. But for him it was preferable to conforming to life under a regime he opposed.

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 03:42:03 pm »
Great story that. I know somewhere round Catalunya or Aragon (read something the other day and forgotten already) that some replublicans were still in Mountains until 1956 as they refused to give in.
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Offline KERRYKOP

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 04:09:44 pm »
Always struck me as an intensely complected war, so many different factions involved, particularly on the left. The more Iv looked into it, the more confused about it I get.

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 04:13:06 pm »
Yeah, unfortunately the left was very complicated and caused many issues.
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Offline Degs

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 04:31:41 pm »
I love this topic and the International Brigade story

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2014, 04:36:40 pm »
Been to Miravet Castle today, an old non-mechanical/motorised ferry runs across the Ebre, using rudders, wire ropes across the river and the river flow. And the bloke who has to know what he is doing. Takes people, cars and if need be animals.
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Online Stubbins

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #12 on: October 6, 2014, 12:47:42 pm »
Spent some time in Madrid a few weeks back.

One night we did our own tour of the places frequented by Hemingway during his routine visits to the city. It included the oldest surviving restaurant in the world 'Botin' (well it would if I'd had presence of mind to book in advance), Cerveceria Alemana a beer hall opened in 1904 and La Venencia sherry bar.

La Venencia was fascinating. By all accounts it hasn't changed in the 70 odd years since Don Ernesto used to call in to get news from the front. It was a haunt of the Republicans and to this day, they still chalk your bill up on the timber bar alongside where you're standing. A couple more Manzanillo sherries? No problem, the bar tender just rubs out the previous amount and writes in the new.

Few house rules for the establishment which they still observe (even if just for the tourists benefit).

No spitting (though it might have kept the dust down)

No photographs. This goes back to the days of the war when they feared fascist spies would incriminate them if there was photographic proof that they frequented the bar.

No tipping. In the eyes of the Republicans they were all equal workers doing an honest job for honest pay, so there was no need to tip.

Lastly, the unofficial rule. You drink your sherry by holding the stem of the glass. Anything else and it marked you down as a fascist interloper and not to be trusted. All eyes on Mr's Stubbins drinking technique that night but I put her wise to the obvious amusement of a couple of locals.

A definite must see for anyone travelling to Madrid and interested in this period of history.

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #13 on: October 6, 2014, 06:27:08 pm »
Good thing about the bar on Santa Ana, is the fact there are loads of bars nearby as well...
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Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #14 on: January 4, 2017, 05:59:57 pm »
Bumping an old thread here! I moved over to Madrid a few months ago and am hoping to learn more about the Civil War, I'm halfway through a six part documentary which is really informative but also if anyone has any good recommendations on books that would be great! In English, my Spanish isn't quite up to it yet ;D Or also if there's things I can go and see in Madrid, particular sites etc that would be interesting too.

That post from Stubbins there is really interesting, will have to check out La Venencia and be sure to drink the sherry properly! I'd sat outside Cerveceria Alemana before, hadn't realised it was a Hemingway favourite :)

Offline Party Phil

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #15 on: January 4, 2017, 06:07:01 pm »
The Battle for Spain: The Spanish Civil War 1936-1939 https://www.amazon.es/dp/0753821656/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_lNtByb9NPYVWZ
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Offline gazzam1963

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #16 on: January 4, 2017, 07:12:10 pm »
Fascinating stuff , had a good look at Irish  modern history a few years ago , going to have. A good look at this , any documentaries anyone can recommend . How come once it was over why didn't Spain as friends of Italy and Germany become embroiled in WW2

Offline redbyrdz

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #17 on: January 4, 2017, 07:14:28 pm »
Orwell Homage to Catalonia.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #18 on: January 4, 2017, 07:28:30 pm »
.... How come once it was over why didn't Spain as friends of Italy and Germany become embroiled in WW2

It was mooted but Franco wasn't stupid. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Felix the planned seizure of Gibraltar.

Franco didn't trust Hitler or that the Germans would be ultimately successful so it all fell apart and...

Some days later, Hitler was reported to have told Benito Mussolini, "I would rather have four of my own teeth pulled out than go through another meeting with that man again!"
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #19 on: January 4, 2017, 07:33:23 pm »
The BBC's In Our Time did a good episode on the Spanish Civil War. It's available as a free podcast from iTunes or the In Our Time website.

Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #20 on: January 5, 2017, 01:03:06 am »
Cheers lads im going to get stuck in to those. From what ive read so far it seems to be a war that manages to sum up what can go wrong about every political movement there is from fascism to communism. Everything that couldve gone wrong in the build up to the war did go wrong. Fascinating but depressing stuff

Offline campioni

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #21 on: January 5, 2017, 09:16:23 am »
The Battle for Spain: The Spanish Civil War 1936-1939 https://www.amazon.es/dp/0753821656/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_lNtByb9NPYVWZ

I second this. Great book. Also, Sid Lowe does a bit about the civil war at the beginning of his book 'fear and loathing in la liga' which ties it in with football at the time.

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #22 on: January 5, 2017, 09:22:35 am »
An interesting, probably well known fact, about this civil war was that Hitler trialled his new Luftwaffe in Geurnica, helping to flatten it. It signaled to Britain to prepare for a peppering and build some shelters.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #23 on: January 5, 2017, 05:58:19 pm »
An interesting, probably well known fact, about this civil war was that Hitler trialled his new Luftwaffe in Geurnica, helping to flatten it. It signaled to Britain to prepare for a peppering and build some shelters.

And inspired Picasso's Guernica painting.

Offline princeoftherocks

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #24 on: January 5, 2017, 08:45:20 pm »
my mum has told me stories of travelling in spain in the seventies and there being a ban on large groups of people congregating.  It was a bit violent.  Franco was a bit of a dick. 

It's easy to forget how recently spain was a fascist dictatorship.
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Offline KERRYKOP

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #25 on: January 5, 2017, 10:00:04 pm »
Spoiler
Franco won
[close]

Offline telekon

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #26 on: January 8, 2017, 06:38:09 pm »
And inspired Picasso's Guernica painting.

It's at the Reina Sofia which is a great museum, even without Guernica. A "must visit" along with the Thyssen and Prado.
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Offline Zlen

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #27 on: January 8, 2017, 06:44:58 pm »
Orwell Homage to Catalonia.

Pretty much all I know about this war.
Great book.

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #28 on: January 8, 2017, 07:08:11 pm »
History will tell us that this, of all the wars, was the most politest.
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Offline Filler.

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #29 on: January 8, 2017, 10:27:42 pm »
Ken Loach's 'Land and Freedom' (1995) is a must watch for anyone interested in the Spanish Civil War. I think it won the Palme D'or at Cannes. I thought everyone from Liverpool would have seen that when it came out! I'd been living in Barcelona the year before it was in the cinemas, so there was no way I wasn't going to miss it. Became very interested in Catalunya while I was there. It was an interesting time, as the older generation spoke Spanish, but the younger generation proudly spoke Catalan (it was banned under Franco). My dad lived in Tarragona between 1959-1970, so my interest started there I guess.


Trailer to the film below. The whole film is also on youtube, but the quality isn't great.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/HDOzOhdazLQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/HDOzOhdazLQ</a>


Other books still on my wish list...

The Spanish Holocaust: Inquisition and Extermination in Twentieth-Century Spain by Paul Preston looks very good... 'Selected as the Sunday Times History Book of the Year for 2012, this is a meticulous work of scholarship from the foremost historian of 20th-century Spain.

The culmination of more than a decade of research, ‘The Spanish Holocaust’ seeks to reflect the intense horrors visited upon Spain during its ferocious civil war, the consequences of which still reverberate bitterly today.'


He also wrote a biography on Franco.


The Spanish Civil War by Hugh Thomas

Orwell in Spain (Penguin Modern Classics) by George Orwell, Peter Davison, Christopher Hitchens (Paperback)

'The volume collects together, for the first time ever, Orwell's writings on his experience of the Spanish Civil War - the chaos at the Front, the futile young deaths for what became a confused cause, the antique weapons and the disappointment many British Socialists felt on arriving in Spain to help. ORWELL IN SPAIN includes the complete text of HOMAGE TO CATALONIA.
'

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #30 on: January 8, 2017, 10:58:23 pm »
Bumping an old thread here! I moved over to Madrid a few months ago and am hoping to learn more about the Civil War, I'm halfway through a six part documentary which is really informative but also if anyone has any good recommendations on books that would be great! In English, my Spanish isn't quite up to it yet ;D Or also if there's things I can go and see in Madrid, particular sites etc that would be interesting too.

That post from Stubbins there is really interesting, will have to check out La Venencia and be sure to drink the sherry properly! I'd sat outside Cerveceria Alemana before, hadn't realised it was a Hemingway favourite :)

Frontline Madrid by David Mathieson, covers Madrid centre and out to Jarama and Brunete. University area has the International Brigades memorial, and there are still remnants of stuff in Casa del Campo.

I'm in Madrid next month for four nights and one of the days i will be going to the Jarama Battlefield which has been organised between the IBMT and AABI.
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Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #31 on: January 8, 2017, 11:22:56 pm »
The famous picture of the No Pasaran banner in the street leading into Plaza Mayor was on Calle Toledo in the south west corner.
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Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2017, 07:31:26 am »
Great stuff everyone, thanks a lot! My first few books arrived yesterday which i will begin tucking into over the weekend. Plus a couple more for the wishlist...

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2017, 09:01:38 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/QS0H-k8sOLk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/QS0H-k8sOLk</a>


THE EX: 1936, The Spanish Revolution (7" 1986)


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Quote
The Spanish Revolution was released in 1986 with two 7΄΄ records (containing four songs), accompanied by a 144 pages book. The songs are punk reworking of folk Spanish anarchist fight songs, and the book, containing mostly b&w photographs and short texts (in Dutch and English), epics the story of the short lived (1936-1939) success of large-scale anarchy in Spain.
http://01fragments.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/ex-1936-spanish-revolution-1986.html

Wiki: 1936, The Spanish Revolution is an album of songs and archival photographs related to the Spanish Civil War, recorded and assembled by Dutch anarchist punk band The Ex. The band released it in 1986, the 50th anniversary of the Spanish Revolution, on their own label as a square 7" (17.5cm) soft-cover book with two 45 rpm records. A 5" (12.5cm) hardcover edition was republished by AK press in 1997, replacing the records with a pair of 3" CDs.

 In wanting to highlight the original values and spirit of the revolution rather than the conflict and eventual defeat of anarchist forces, The Ex compiled 144 pages of previously unpublished photographs taken by journalists aligned with the revolutionary forces, along with several short essays about the revolution. Text appears in both English and Spanish.

For the double-single, The Ex recorded two Spanish language songs with music and lyrics originally sung by 1930s Spanish revolutionary forces and supporters. On the flip side of each single was an English langiuage song about the revolution. The 1997 CD reissue split the songs up similarly as 2 mini-CDs.

1936 was the first of The Ex's releases to gain some notoriety outside of the Netherlands, selling enough copies to reach No. 6 on the UK Indie Chart. AllMusic called the book a "powerful and enlightening visual document that casts a fresh light on a major historical event little understood in the United States," and said that The Ex's music "find them inviting the spirit of the revolution as if it occurred five minutes ago, not 50 years past."


Quote
The book focuses on the CNT (Confederatión National del Trabajo) [National Labor Confederation] and FAI (Federatión Anarquista Ibérica) [Iberian Anarchist Federation] action during the years of the Spanish Civil War, two organizations that formed the hard core of anarchist movement in Spain at that time. This action is presented in several fields, fields that also form the book’s structure; what is shortly depicted are these: the origins and the beginning of the revolution, the collectivization in the economic and the social field, the effect that revolution had in culture, the developments in the front and the impact that international relations and the tension ( and more often conflicts ) among communist - socialists and anarchists had to these developments, and finally the causes and the chronicle of the revolution’s failure.

The Ex does not pretend to have accomplished a historical or scientific task, and they make this clear soon enough. They also deny any claim of objectivity: “…Thus [ the foto collection] it is a compilation: neither chronological nor objective, but one-sided, partial and subjective. Only from the anarchist’s side…” Instead, they point out their aim, which has a double character: firstly, to show “…how much pleasure, imagination, devotion and energy the Spanish anarchists put in their effort to destroy once and for all the damned class of boots, ties and crucifixes…”, the fact that this attempt to revolution “…saw an explosion of creativity which only takes place when you’re finally able to conceive of something and follow through on it –to arrange your own life without hate and greed, without competition and oppression…” and finally how this effort “…was immediately attacted, terrorized and destroyed by the state and the bourgeoisie…”.
Secondly, their aim is targeting to diagnose the similarities between the Spanish experiment and the present: “…For us the Spanish revolution is not just an event or incident, not just a chapter in a history book. It’s an attempt similar to what we are doing now: trying to get rid of this imposed shit system…”. With that, the conclusion comes by the Ex as an afterword: for them, the anarchist experiment of the 30’s shows that “…it certainly is possible to bring an anarchist society into practice…”.
http://01fragments.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/ex-1936-spanish-revolution-1986.html







Quote
“I wanted nothing and don’t want anything to do with order, rank orders and commands. I am as I am, a peasant who learned to read in prison, who experienced pain and death closeby, who was an anarchist without knowing it, and today, now that I know, I am even more anarchist than yesterday, when I killed to be free” from Nosotros – anarchist daily – march 1937 (in 1936 booklet).

The squats of the 80’s must had been a remarkably fertile place of exciting experiments, especially for such in the cultural field; any argument to this would eventually had to cope (and) with the case of The Ex.

The band was formed in 1979, a time when the punk explosion is in its peak, and its birthplace is the Dutch (more precisely those of Amsterdam) squats. The Ex started as a lo-fi anarcho-punk, moving gradually, through the decades, to post-punk/no wave experimental work, lately absorbing a wide range of influences, often from non Western (Hungarian and Turkish folk songs and recently African music- including music from Congo, Ethiopia and Eritrea) and non rock sources, and marked by collaborations such as with the avant-garde cellist Tom Cora in the early 90’s and with members of Sonic Youth, Dutch improvisers ICP and UK anarchist band Chumbawamba.


Their work, 1936, The Spanish Revolution, is a result of addiction, devotion, admiration, love and, I would dare to say, continuousness; it is probably the rare and privileged moment in which the aesthetic view, the political thesis and the practice of everyday action towards the world are merged into a unique peek point; a point that shines equally as an accomplishment and as a paradigm.

http://01fragments.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/ex-1936-spanish-revolution-1986.html

« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 09:14:34 pm by Filler. »

Offline CHOPPER

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2017, 11:13:18 pm »
No, after you
Are you sure?
Yes
Too kind sir
Shall one use a simple hanging method or just a bullet to the back of the head?
@ Veinticinco de Mayo The way you talk to other users on this forum is something you should be ashamed of as someone who is suppose to be representing the site.
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Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Spanish Civil War
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2017, 12:48:20 pm »
Can always rely on Filler! Will definitely check that out when i get home, cheers!