Author Topic: Coates confirmed  (Read 131975 times)

Offline bigbear

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1120 on: October 20, 2011, 07:24:39 pm »
i wonder how many games he played before he became the dominant defender?

there is no doubt carragher has benefited from other players injuries in terms of his number of appearances.

because of this i can see us bringing in another defender in january.

i wonder if dortmund will be up for selling once they're out of the champions league? ;)
Just further to this.

Hansen was effectively 22 when he signed for us at the end of 1977 season. He wasn't an 18 yr old as was suggested earlier and it still took him a few seasons to really settle down BUT he had Phil Thompson next to him and a fabulous midfield in front of him.

Offline JHova2427

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1121 on: October 20, 2011, 07:25:20 pm »
I think all of that is true. Carra got away with criticism for the Welbeck header but he's have bollocked someone backwards if it'd happened because of someone else.

It is true, but at the same time, like you said, it's not like someone else is right behind knocking on the door constantly being wasted on the bench.  Skrtel is usually playing and not always mistake free.  Agger injured the majority of the time, and Coates is very young and just came over from South America, which almost always takes a bedding in period.


Offline bigbear

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1122 on: October 20, 2011, 07:29:24 pm »
It is true, but at the same time, like you said, it's not like someone else is right behind knocking on the door constantly being wasted on the bench.  Skrtel is usually playing and not always mistake free.  Agger injured the majority of the time, and Coates is very young and just came over from South America, which almost always takes a bedding in period.


It would be hard for Coates to go straight in and we don't know how he is settling in training/in Liverpool/what his language skills are but.....
i'd like to see him given a go.

Offline hassinator

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1123 on: October 20, 2011, 07:30:13 pm »
At least 75-100 games.

I always thought Tommo was the leader of the defence and Hansen probably didn't really come to full error-free maturity until the Bayern Munich semi finals in 81 when he took care of Rummennigge in Munich with Colin Irwin playing next to him.

Don't get me wrong, he was class always but he would day dream sometimes and dilly dally whereas Tommo was barking at him not unlike Carragher does now.

would you say agger came of age after shutting down drogba?

Offline Chakan

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1124 on: October 20, 2011, 07:30:18 pm »
It would be hard for Coates to go straight in and we don't know how he is settling in training/in Liverpool/what his language skills are but.....
i'd like to see him given a go.

That's the problem though, he more than likely won't be given a go, and if he is, it will more than likely be Carra he's standing next to.

Offline JHova2427

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1125 on: October 20, 2011, 07:31:43 pm »
It would be hard for Coates to go straight in and we don't know how he is settling in training/in Liverpool/what his language skills are but.....
i'd like to see him given a go.

I would love to see him given a go.  I am just a little scared the moment may get to him to fast and just really mess it up.  Think Norwich would be as good a game as any to get him involved though.  His best pairing right now I think would be with Agger as a calm influence on him. 

Offline JHova2427

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1126 on: October 20, 2011, 07:33:02 pm »
That's the problem though, he more than likely won't be given a go, and if he is, it will more than likely be Carra he's standing next to.

Which could just throw everything off with Carragher overreacting to every little mistake pulling everyone else out of position.  I love Carragher, but when he is next to someone new he blows it out of proportion by acting like Superman to the rescue.

Offline bigbear

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1127 on: October 20, 2011, 07:34:18 pm »
would you say agger came of age after shutting down drogba?
Yes, in 2007 he looked the business but injuries mean we can no longer rely upon him.

He is still an excellent player but how long do you wait ? We could be here in 2 years time saying " if only Agger could stay fit".

Don't get me wrong I would still play him when available but can we base the next 4 years on him ?

Offline hassinator

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1128 on: October 20, 2011, 07:37:30 pm »
Yes, in 2007 he looked the business but injuries mean we can no longer rely upon him.

He is still an excellent player but how long do you wait ? We could be here in 2 years time saying " if only Agger could stay fit".

Don't get me wrong I would still play him when available but can we base the next 4 years on him ?

its the injuries that make me want us to sign someone with experience and quality as a new starting central defender in january.

i think coates is the future and would also like to see him start against norwich.

Offline bigbear

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1129 on: October 20, 2011, 07:45:23 pm »
its the injuries that make me want us to sign someone with experience and quality as a new starting central defender in january.

i think coates is the future and would also like to see him start against norwich.
I tend to agree with that.

I watched Carra last week v United closely and I think he has totally lost the composure and confidence he had 4 or 5 years ago when Rafa took over and moved him inside.

He panics much more now than he ever has done and is so last ditch, also because he dominates the defence so much he makes us defend in a manner that he is comfortable with ie dropping deeper and deeper.

Whose idea was it to drop off for 10 minutes after we scored and defend the edge of our box ? Kenny's, Stevie's or Carra's ?

Offline john_mac

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1130 on: October 20, 2011, 07:51:22 pm »
Whose idea was it to drop off for 10 minutes after we scored and defend the edge of our box ? Kenny's, Stevie's or Carra's ?

You are right ........................sack the manager, & his assistant for allowing a player to rule the roost, not decisive enough. Sack the player for.....................take your pick, there are enough reasons on here to hang him never mind sack him. That'll make it much easier for a young, South American central defender to make his way in England!
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Offline bigbear

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1131 on: October 20, 2011, 07:53:28 pm »
You are right ........................sack the manager, & his assistant for allowing a player to rule the roost, not decisive enough. Sack the player for.....................take your pick, there are enough reasons on here to hang him never mind sack him. That'll make it much easier for a young, South American central defender to make his way in England!
John, there's no need to take a defensive stance here.
Who do you think made that call last week to let the best attacking side in the country camp out with ball around our box ?

Offline john_mac

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1132 on: October 20, 2011, 08:06:52 pm »
John, there's no need to take a defensive stance here.
Who do you think made that call last week to let the best attacking side in the country camp out with ball around our box ?

Me? I think that it is something that happens in every league in every country from under 8's to Champions League finals, when a team is ahead against the most dominant team in its class. I don't necessarily think anybody makes a specific call to do so. I think that a dominant leader may make a call to try to reverse it, but it is a natural defensive instinct to try to hang on to three points.

Of course, it is far simpler to sit behind a keyboard with a magnificent insight as to where and why things are going wrong at our football club, rather than see the amazing progress the management team, club & players have made over the past twelve months, but why be arsed with stuff like that when you can spout championship manager bollox and moan like fuck instead? 
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Offline Aristotle

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1133 on: October 20, 2011, 08:07:59 pm »
why is everyone comparing the hansen replacing the hughes. Hansen came into a team that was the best in england and in europe. When u have such quality players he had around him to support him, he was able to play to his potential... Unlike to coates where he has quality players but when the team is still trying to gel in its difficult. We can see that even downing who after all these years in england is still trying to be at par with the likes of suarez n gerrard etc. Give the lads some time and when they are on the pitch give them our full support...

I agree with that, up to a certain point and have on many occasions talked about how the squad has lacked a winning mentality. And I have no doubt that being part of a squad that just won the European Cup and had the phenomenal players that it had is easily preferable to coming into squad that has 7 new players and about 15 that left.

But I think that it's more important to the new players to have some sort of future line-up in mind. We're having the new players like Adam, Downing and Henderson adapting to a back 4 that will not be the same next season. Charlie Adam for example would no doubt benefit significantly from starting every chance we get 5-10 yards further up the pitch because the center back brings the ball to him, instead of having to come deep to collect it. I think it's more important now than it was 2-3 seasons ago since we have such a new squad to have some sort of foundations, whether it be Skrtel, Coates or a new center back for that matter. Reina will be in goal, Enrique at left back but what else can we take for granted? An aging Carra, injury prone Agger, inconsistent Skrtel and then Kelly and Johnson who can't stay fit. Which is why I'm advocating putting Coates in who, if nothing else, gives us a height advantage.

That is such an absurd generalization of Carra's abilities it is not even worth replying, but still. So, according to you Carra's only abilities in defence are last ditch tackles, playing with cramps and hoofs. While Coates is the panacea to all our problems. 

By all means point to where I said that. I said that his game was about sliding tackles and back-to-the-wall defending. Which, thanks to Rafa Benitez, made him a starting CB in 2 Champions League Finals. Before that he was a makeshift fullback, holding midfielder and a stop gap for everything that needed. His short comings were glossed over by a phenomenal midfield that consisted amongst others of Mascherano and Sissoko who provided excellent cover for the back 4, whilst Xabi Alonso dropped down and reliefed Carra of the pain of playing the ball.
And it's no secret that some people's opinion of Carragher gets a certain romantic feel due to unforgettable moments like his defending in Istanbul. Again, a phenomenal achievement that no one can or is even trying to take away from him. I'm simply saying that in anyway criticizing Carrgher you get bombarded with endless accounts of Carra's heroic acts in a red shirt, which for whatever reason seem to dwarf the likes of Emlyn Hughes, Phil Neal, Phil Thompson et al who all did wonderful things for the club.

And do please highlight where I said Coates was going to save us from all evil. I simply stated that he has done enough to at least warrant a chance of failing or succeeding.

Firstly, I do not buy in to this myth that Carra is losing his abilities. Carragher's reading of the game is still one of the best in the league.. He was never fast, and his game hasn't deteriorated.

Do you honestly believe that? So is it a myth that we're losing points, and he's scoring own goals and giving away penalties? So you don't think it's a worrying sign that a man who once upon a time terrorised Shevchenko is now turned by such powerhouse strikers as Jon Walters.

Take for example arguably the best 30+ defender out there, Alessandro Nesta. He was faced one-on-one with Lionel Messi inside his own box and inside 5 seconds he slid in, won the ball, stood up and had passed the ball to the full back when was the last time Carragher did anything close to that. Let alone against someonen in Messi's range of quality. An unfair comparison, I will admit that much as they were two seperate occasions that can not possibly be compared. But to explain my reasoning for doing so. Turn the tables and make it Carra vs. Messi and Nesta vs. Walters and ask a 100 people. Who do you think they'll put money on to come away with the ball?

Next, Coates winning medals in Uruguayan league isn't inspiring confidence. He played well in 4-5 games in the south american championship which shows definite potential, but we need to understand that the premier league is faster than anything else. I have already covered other points about Coates, so not going to dwelve on it again.

I'm pretty sure that people know that there's a difference between the Uruguayan league and the PL. Also I feel confident that if Coates can cope against the likes of Alexis Sanchez he can cope with someone like Peter Crouch. And I mean Chile play high-pressing football, on both a more intense level and with much better players than your average PL side.

You make it sound like we are dropping points because of Carra, why would managers then line up to keep Carra in the side, we have had 3(with 2 of them being amongst some of the top managers this club has ever had) managers. We also have seen Capello insist and take him to the world cup. If he was just an average joe who plays with heart and not anywhere near the ilk of the Maldinis and Baressis, why would he be picked consistently.

Never said Carra was never a good player, but now he's seriously pushing it. Using England's World Cup squad to back up your arguement won't win many people over as the same squad also had Matthew Upson, Gareth Barry, Joe Cole, Aaron Lennon, Shuan Wright-Phillips, Emile Heskey and Stephen Warnock.

And if Hyypia had signed a new contract, Agger had stayed fit, Rafa gotten more than 1.5m to buy a new center back, San Jose not been shown the door and Skrtel showed more consistency Carra might have been moved on already.

And this will be controversial no doubt, and I'll probably bring on a hailstorm of abuse for it, but does anyone honestly believe that if Carra had been a Liverpool player in the late 70's or the 80's he would have anywhere near 700 appearances for the club?

Do you know more than managers who are working in the game, are you saying they do not have sufficient balls to drop him. He is 33, not an old man. Most defenders play the game at their best when they have acquired that experience, but let that go.

I don't know more than the managers, but that doesn't mean I can't question them. You claim with absolute certainty that because they picked him, and are fantastic managers, thusly he is as good as the Maldinis and Baresis of this world. If that works for you, who am I to question it.

33 does not make him an old man. But in terms of great Liverpool defenders it makes him one. Emlyn Hughes, European Cup and League winning captain - 30 when he left LFC. Alan Hansen, possibly our greatest ever CB - 34 when he left Liverpool. Phil Neal's accomplishments don't need to be counted - 34 when he left the club. Tommy Smith - 33 when he played his last game. Phil Thompson - 29 years old when he left. Sami Hyypia - 36 but by then he was used in rotation and despite featuring in important games didn't make 10 games in his last season. Ron Yeats - 34 when he left. Mark Lawrenson - 32 when he left.

All of those were replaced because they had reached that age. All of them are legends at the club with a medal collection envied by all. Do you not think we should be doing the same to Carragher, since we did so to all of them?

The Irony of your name being aristotle is too much to handle given your points.

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Offline john_mac

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1134 on: October 20, 2011, 08:12:12 pm »
All of those were replaced because they had reached that age. All of them are legends at the club with a medal collection envied by all. Do you not think we should be doing the same to Carragher, since we did so to all of them?

& how many football forums made the decision that their time was up?
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Offline bigbear

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1135 on: October 20, 2011, 08:13:41 pm »
Me? I think that it is something that happens in every league in every country from under 8's to Champions League finals, when a team is ahead against the most dominant team in its class. I don't necessarily think anybody makes a specific call to do so. I think that a dominant leader may make a call to try to reverse it, but it is a natural defensive instinct to try to hang on to three points.

Of course, it is far simpler to sit behind a keyboard with a magnificent insight as to where and why things are going wrong at our football club, rather than see the amazing progress the management team, club & players have made over the past twelve months, but why be arsed with stuff like that when you can spout championship manager bollox and moan like fuck instead? 
Isn't that when the experienced leader of the defence should be pushing his players out and showing more composure though ?

By the way, I'm not slagging off my football club nor am I slagging off Carra, he has been a great player for us. We are debating whether or not it is time for a great servant to be replaced that's all. It seems that is not allowed.

The more I watch Jamie now the more I become convinced we have to try a few games without him.

Offline bigbear

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1136 on: October 20, 2011, 08:19:26 pm »
I agree with that, up to a certain point and have on many occasions talked about how the squad has lacked a winning mentality. And I have no doubt that being part of a squad that just won the European Cup and had the phenomenal players that it had is easily preferable to coming into squad that has 7 new players and about 15 that left.

But I think that it's more important to the new players to have some sort of future line-up in mind. We're having the new players like Adam, Downing and Henderson adapting to a back 4 that will not be the same next season. Charlie Adam for example would no doubt benefit significantly from starting every chance we get 5-10 yards further up the pitch because the center back brings the ball to him, instead of having to come deep to collect it. I think it's more important now than it was 2-3 seasons ago since we have such a new squad to have some sort of foundations, whether it be Skrtel, Coates or a new center back for that matter. Reina will be in goal, Enrique at left back but what else can we take for granted? An aging Carra, injury prone Agger, inconsistent Skrtel and then Kelly and Johnson who can't stay fit. Which is why I'm advocating putting Coates in who, if nothing else, gives us a height advantage.

By all means point to where I said that. I said that his game was about sliding tackles and back-to-the-wall defending. Which, thanks to Rafa Benitez, made him a starting CB in 2 Champions League Finals. Before that he was a makeshift fullback, holding midfielder and a stop gap for everything that needed. His short comings were glossed over by a phenomenal midfield that consisted amongst others of Mascherano and Sissoko who provided excellent cover for the back 4, whilst Xabi Alonso dropped down and reliefed Carra of the pain of playing the ball.
And it's no secret that some people's opinion of Carragher gets a certain romantic feel due to unforgettable moments like his defending in Istanbul. Again, a phenomenal achievement that no one can or is even trying to take away from him. I'm simply saying that in anyway criticizing Carrgher you get bombarded with endless accounts of Carra's heroic acts in a red shirt, which for whatever reason seem to dwarf the likes of Emlyn Hughes, Phil Neal, Phil Thompson et al who all did wonderful things for the club.

And do please highlight where I said Coates was going to save us from all evil. I simply stated that he has done enough to at least warrant a chance of failing or succeeding.

Do you honestly believe that? So is it a myth that we're losing points, and he's scoring own goals and giving away penalties? So you don't think it's a worrying sign that a man who once upon a time terrorised Shevchenko is now turned by such powerhouse strikers as Jon Walters.

Take for example arguably the best 30+ defender out there, Alessandro Nesta. He was faced one-on-one with Lionel Messi inside his own box and inside 5 seconds he slid in, won the ball, stood up and had passed the ball to the full back when was the last time Carragher did anything close to that. Let alone against someonen in Messi's range of quality. An unfair comparison, I will admit that much as they were two seperate occasions that can not possibly be compared. But to explain my reasoning for doing so. Turn the tables and make it Carra vs. Messi and Nesta vs. Walters and ask a 100 people. Who do you think they'll put money on to come away with the ball?

I'm pretty sure that people know that there's a difference between the Uruguayan league and the PL. Also I feel confident that if Coates can cope against the likes of Alexis Sanchez he can cope with someone like Peter Crouch. And I mean Chile play high-pressing football, on both a more intense level and with much better players than your average PL side.

Never said Carra was never a good player, but now he's seriously pushing it. Using England's World Cup squad to back up your arguement won't win many people over as the same squad also had Matthew Upson, Gareth Barry, Joe Cole, Aaron Lennon, Shuan Wright-Phillips, Emile Heskey and Stephen Warnock.

And if Hyypia had signed a new contract, Agger had stayed fit, Rafa gotten more than 1.5m to buy a new center back, San Jose not been shown the door and Skrtel showed more consistency Carra might have been moved on already.

And this will be controversial no doubt, and I'll probably bring on a hailstorm of abuse for it, but does anyone honestly believe that if Carra had been a Liverpool player in the late 70's or the 80's he would have anywhere near 700 appearances for the club?

I don't know more than the managers, but that doesn't mean I can't question them. You claim with absolute certainty that because they picked him, and are fantastic managers, thusly he is as good as the Maldinis and Baresis of this world. If that works for you, who am I to question it.

33 does not make him an old man. But in terms of great Liverpool defenders it makes him one. Emlyn Hughes, European Cup and League winning captain - 30 when he left LFC. Alan Hansen, possibly our greatest ever CB - 34 when he left Liverpool. Phil Neal's accomplishments don't need to be counted - 34 when he left the club. Tommy Smith - 33 when he played his last game. Phil Thompson - 29 years old when he left. Sami Hyypia - 36 but by then he was used in rotation and despite featuring in important games didn't make 10 games in his last season. Ron Yeats - 34 when he left. Mark Lawrenson - 32 when he left.

All of those were replaced because they had reached that age. All of them are legends at the club with a medal collection envied by all. Do you not think we should be doing the same to Carragher, since we did so to all of them?

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That is such a good post. The bit about the age our great defenders of the past were moved on with much less fuss is a really interesting comparison. A more modern one is perhaps Ferdinand. A far better player than Carra for me and yet his powers at a younger age appear on the wane. Yes he has had injuries which Carra has not had but United are already in the process of replacing him.

Offline john_mac

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1137 on: October 20, 2011, 08:23:13 pm »
Isn't that when the experienced leader of the defence should be pushing his players out and showing more composure though ?

By the way, I'm not slagging off my football club nor am I slagging off Carra, he has been a great player for us. We are debating whether or not it is time for a great servant to be replaced that's all. It seems that is not allowed.

The more I watch Jamie now the more I become convinced we have to try a few games without him.

Why is it not allowed? of course he is approaching the end of his career, some of the shit on here is just bollox though. I mean blaming Carra for us becoming more defensive in the last few minutes when ahead against United, that's just shit. Any memory of an FA Cup semi v Palace where we ended up with half the team playing on the goal-line? That Hansen fella must have been shite!

Carra will be phased out but as for rushing him out while Agger has been injured, whilst we have a young inexperienced defender in a new continent, its just bolllox. Me I don't see Kenny making bollox decisions whatever the opinions of the latest trend of the latest breed of managers on a football forum.   
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Offline bigbear

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1138 on: October 20, 2011, 08:30:44 pm »
Why is it not allowed? of course he is approaching the end of his career, some of the shit on here is just bollox though. I mean blaming Carra for us becoming more defensive in the last few minutes when ahead against United, that's just shit. Any memory of an FA Cup semi v Palace where we ended up with half the team playing on the goal-line? That Hansen fella must have been shite!

Carra will be phased out but as for rushing him out while Agger has been injured, whilst we have a young inexperienced defender in a new continent, its just bolllox. Me I don't see Kenny making bollox decisions whatever the opinions of the latest trend of the latest breed of managers on a football forum.   
Only the management know how well Coates has settled in, I said that before and it would not do him any harm to be brought in gradually IF he is as good as we (and the scouts) hope he is.

I also said that Agger and Skrtel as a partnership have not been available on any kind of consistent basis to make a big change so I can see why Carra is still playing.

However, it is clear that Jamie's levels are dropping and in my view his confidence, composure and reading of the game too.

With regard to us dropping off against ManU, Jamie is the leader of that defence, he should be walking them out and making the midfield stay on top but I think he doesn't fancy himself in behind to the pace and so we drop off. When he was more confident we did not defend like that as routinely as we do now.

Offline john_mac

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1139 on: October 20, 2011, 08:40:48 pm »
Only the management know how well Coates has settled in,

Fuck me... you don't want to start leaving decisions to them

Jamie is the leader of that defence

A therefore 100% responsible...er
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Offline JHova2427

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1140 on: October 20, 2011, 09:10:53 pm »
Fuck me... you don't want to start leaving decisions to them

A therefore 100% responsible...er

Most of what has been said has been pretty honest and fair to Carra.  "Championship Manager" bollocks or not, it is not completely far fetched to throw in a 20 year old Central Defender with the pedigree Coates has against a lower tier PL team.

Carra has made some pretty poor tackles recently and has played with an air of "last ditch" about him.  That to me has been pretty plain to see.  Now he could well be trying to hard to make up for other's shortcomings but I am not sure.  We have not seen a different central defense pairing with healthy fullbacks that doesn't include Carra for a pretty long time so we cannot be sure one way or the other.


Offline john_mac

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1141 on: October 20, 2011, 09:20:04 pm »
That to me has been pretty plain to see. 

which is why the, er.... manager, can't see it!
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Offline JHova2427

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1142 on: October 20, 2011, 09:23:54 pm »
which is why the, er.... manager, can't see it!

So you don't see it then?

Offline IndianKopite

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1143 on: October 20, 2011, 09:25:07 pm »
Two belters of posts from Aristotle.Its due to posts like these that I come here.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1144 on: October 20, 2011, 09:28:17 pm »
Two belters of posts from Aristotle.Its due to posts like these that I come here.

Yeah, if he were picking the team & tactics with you in Steve Clarke's role we'd be pissing the league!
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 09:31:33 pm by john_mac »
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Offline IndianKopite

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1145 on: October 20, 2011, 09:29:50 pm »
Yeah, if he were picking the tem 7 tactics with you in Steve Clarke's role we'd be pissing the league!

Well thanks bud :p

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1146 on: October 20, 2011, 09:33:06 pm »
Yeah, if he were picking the team & tactics with you in Steve Clarke's role we'd be pissing the league!

That's not the point though is it? The point is that we are not pissing the league and we strive to actually be pissing the league.  So we would be pretty stupid to not look around and see what short comings there may be that are keeping us from pissing the league. 

Agree with others about Aristotle's post.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1147 on: October 20, 2011, 09:33:23 pm »
Yeah, if he were picking the tem 7 tactics with you in Steve Clarke's role we'd be pissing the league!
So why should any punter ever have an opinion on a team then if all we have to do is defer to the management.

Nobody is fool proof albeit Kenny is as close as they come to me, but football would be a pretty boring sport to chat about with your mates if the stock answer to every question was "the management no best|".

Of course they do but it doesn't necessarily mean they are always right. Roy Hodgson knows miles more than me and you put together but he signed Konchesky and Poulsen and he was wrong and we all knew he was wrong.

Offline leivapool

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1148 on: October 20, 2011, 09:38:07 pm »


Great post.

As for Coates, I like him.  He's a little raw, and has looked nervous at times, but I think if we can keep Agger fit and give Coates a few games along side him, with Lucas and Gerrard around to be available for the pass I think he is going to be a really good player for us.  I watched almost all of the Copa America and as a previous poster has said, he coped with some brilliant attacks and attackers brilliantly.

But he needs games.    Skrtel and Carragher make mistakes, what's the harm in letting Coates have a few games.  Sure he'll make some mistakes, but he'll also improve. Will Carragher or Skrtel?  and before I get abuse, I like Carra and Skrtel, just think Coates could be better for us sooner rather than later.
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Offline john_mac

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1149 on: October 20, 2011, 09:40:16 pm »
"the management no best|".

It's know not 'no'.

Its one thing talking footy with your mates after a game that you've been to, another thing completely chatting shite with 'know it alls' on an internet forum who genuinely believe that they are in a better position to judge than the coaching staff. As dull as that may be for said 'experts'!
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1150 on: October 20, 2011, 09:42:00 pm »
It's know not 'no'.

Its one thing talking footy with your mates after a game that you've been to, another thing completely chatting shite with 'know it alls' on an internet forum who genuinely believe that they are in a better position to judge than the coaching staff. As dull as that may be for said 'experts'!
Thanks for the spelling lesson. i never nu that.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1151 on: October 20, 2011, 09:42:26 pm »

But he needs games.   

& he'll get games, just not necessarily against Man U & Everton. He was bought fora number of years not weeks.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1152 on: October 20, 2011, 09:47:03 pm »
The biggest plus for me regarding coates was when he came on against spurs and within 2 minutes he was remonstrating for the defence to push up.He saw what we all know to be true we PLAY TOO DEEP.That will NOT change until carra has finished his career,phazed out,moved on etc.
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Offline Breitner

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1153 on: October 20, 2011, 09:56:29 pm »
I'd just throw him in, it's not the like the defence is so good that we have to be careful with his progression, we need an immediate improvment in mobility and physicality. Carra and Skrtel are a pair of nervous wrecks for players of their experience
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1154 on: October 20, 2011, 10:01:24 pm »
i just don't buy this reassuring figure crap about carra. The guy causes more panic, through just shouting at players for the sake of it, his wild clearances, and his nervousness on the ball. Agger is the man this guy will feell more at home with.
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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1155 on: October 20, 2011, 10:02:37 pm »
I tend to agree with that.

I watched Carra last week v United closely and I think he has totally lost the composure and confidence he had 4 or 5 years ago when Rafa took over and moved him inside.

He panics much more now than he ever has done and is so last ditch, also because he dominates the defence so much he makes us defend in a manner that he is comfortable with ie dropping deeper and deeper.

Whose idea was it to drop off for 10 minutes after we scored and defend the edge of our box ? Kenny's, Stevie's or Carra's ?

he played out of his skin in prime time.  like danny murphy he is someone who needs to be 100% to offer his best.  its like 'gattaca' where the non-clone doesn't care about swimming back its all about winning the journey out.  you simply can't sustain that level of endeavour.  i love carra but his best days are behind him.  would he start for the plastics; shitty or the other shower?  not on your nelly.

for me it seems like we're playing to accommodate him.  he is a leader.  no doubt.  but he's past his best and i think there comes a point where the club has to say 'well done' but time for a new regime.  i don't mean this to be heartless or dismissive i just think the stats speak for themselves.  remember palace last season?  too many penalties that other players get away with because they don't look like their flailing arms aren't finding their mark.  we need someone mid-20s; plays for england (ideally) and will be a good transitional leader while we develop the undoubted ability of coates.

if we can't do that then we need to give the lad game time to learn on the job.  i understand its a new culture; a new language and a new club but he bit the bulllet and joined us because we offer opportunity and suarez.  lets back the bosses judgement and let him play.

Offline john_mac

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1156 on: October 20, 2011, 10:05:16 pm »
I might have been taking the piss, but I'm 100% sure that the same crew of internet pricks who are screaming for his inclusion would be the first on his back if he's not immediately a Beckenbeur. The fact is that he is a young player who plays in a difficult position, making his way on the other side of the world from his home.

It is not going to happen overnight, its going to take some time. Lets hope he becomes the player some already appear to think that he is but lets have some trust in the people that fucken matter to make the rightdecisions on a young players future for fucks sake.   
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Offline hassinator

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1157 on: October 20, 2011, 10:05:36 pm »
You are right ........................sack the manager, & his assistant for allowing a player to rule the roost, not decisive enough. Sack the player for.....................take your pick, there are enough reasons on here to hang him never mind sack him. That'll make it much easier for a young, South American central defender to make his way in England!

it was carragher's fault that wellbeck could play the ball into their mexican lad.  skrtel lost his man but if the header had been snuffed out then the goal would not have happened.

i know you're an old guard kind of guy but as we know at liverpool you're only as good as your last game.

if we let sentiment in we allow weakness to creep into our thinking and that's the road to failure.

to suggest that we're not playing to accommodate carragher seems disingenuous at best.

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1158 on: October 20, 2011, 10:06:32 pm »
Me? I think that it is something that happens in every league in every country from under 8's to Champions League finals, when a team is ahead against the most dominant team in its class. I don't necessarily think anybody makes a specific call to do so. I think that a dominant leader may make a call to try to reverse it, but it is a natural defensive instinct to try to hang on to three points.

Of course, it is far simpler to sit behind a keyboard with a magnificent insight as to where and why things are going wrong at our football club, rather than see the amazing progress the management team, club & players have made over the past twelve months, but why be arsed with stuff like that when you can spout championship manager bollox and moan like fuck instead? 

oh and you're not an internet warrior sitting behind his keyboard spitting spite and vitriol?

carragher is a player for our first 11 and will be judged on that by us and the management just the same.

Offline john_mac

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Re: Coates confirmed
« Reply #1159 on: October 20, 2011, 10:08:20 pm »
lets back the bosses judgement and let him play.

Isn't the boss's judgement to let Carragher play or have I missed something?
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