Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

I just don't know what people saw when they watched Lucas today.

He was not our best player.

Kelly was comfortably better for starters.

[Ambrosia]

I just don't know what people saw when they watched Lucas today.

He was not our best player.

Kelly was comfortably better for starters.

No one has said he was our best player, have they?

[Sangria]

Played well today, gave his all (unlike Nando) and will be a fixture in any Kenny side.

Dalglish has picked worse midfielders than Lucas in the past. Even in the fabled 87-88 side.

[leivapool]

Same could be said about all those clambering onto the Lucas bandwagon.

I am not clambering on the Lucas bandwagon.  I genuinely think he is a top top player, who is still improving.  You disagree.  I can cope with that   The manager of Brazil agrees with my take on him.  Top lad, top talent, top technical ability and footballing brain.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

He's just not up to the standard of Alonso or Mascherano.

And I don't think he will be.

[steveeastend]

I just don't know what people saw when they watched Lucas today.

He was not our best player.

Kelly was comfortably better for starters.

You clearly have an agenda against this guy. What does Kelly has to do with Lucas?

After all the positive changes, clearly visible on the pitch today, coming out with this and single out a player just for the sake of it.... I don´t get it mate.

Get over it, he is a Liverpool player and will be even more valuable in the upcoming weeks as he is able to keep the ball on the ground and play pass and move.

[new-red]

I thought it was too much for him today.

He was better in the first half hour, but he kept getting beaten easily and caught in possession. His tackling wasn't good either.

Gerrard obviously was an overzealous idiot for that challenge, but I'm not talking about him here.

see, you can't just say shit like that. He got caught in possession once and got dispossessed and then there were other times were he dealt with the pressure and made a good pass.

His tackling was poor today but I think that is because he was trying to tackle attackers who were running at him as opposed to him actively pursuing atackers where he is far better in the tackle. Its very hard to tackle someone running right at you when you aren't moving at the same speed because at any moment the attacker can change direction so its very hard to anticipate their movement and then make a tackle.

This was just a rough game for the midfield all around.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

You clearly have an agenda against this guy. What does Kelly has to do with Lucas?

After all the positive changes, clearly visible on the pitch today, coming out with this and single out a player just for the sake of it.... I don´t get it mate.

Get over it, he is a Liverpool player and will be even more valuable in the upcoming weeks as he is able to keep the ball on the ground and play pass and move.

I don't have any issue with him.

I would pick him ahead of Poulsen every single time. Only an idiot wouldn't.

But I didn't think he was very good today and I am not convinced by him.

I don't see why people think it's so terrible to not think he's up to the standard of the likes of Alonso, Mascherano and Hamann.

[The G in Gerrard]

He's just not up to the standard of Alonso or Mascherano.

Must have taken you ages to think of that one

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Must have taken you ages to think of that one

It's blindingly obvious and so springs to mind.

[steveeastend]

He's just not up to the standard of Alonso or Mascherano.

And I don't think he will be.

So then you don´t support him?

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

So then you don´t support him?

I want everyone in the Red shirt to do well and improve, but that doesn't stop me from having a honest opinion based on what I see.

I think Poulsen is shite, but I hope he does well. Obviously.

[El Campeador]

He was fucking solid today. For large stretches of the match, he was practically the only CM we had out there. Worked his socks off, kept recycling the ball, never panicked, and hardly gave the ball away all match.

Considering he was partnered with Raul (poor game, poor decisions), Gerrard (red card), and Shelvey (rookie), the fact that United's midfield didn't walk all over us was down mostly to him.

[The G in Gerrard]

It's blindingly obvious and so springs to mind.

Prior to Gerrard's sending off he was excellent but hey whatever your opinion eh

[steveeastend]

I don't have any issue with him.

I would pick him ahead of Poulsen every single time. Only an idiot wouldn't.

But I didn't think he was very good today and I am not convinced by him.

I don't see why people think it's so terrible to not think he's up to the standard of the likes of Alonso, Mascherano and Hamann.

It´s the timing. You coming out with this after today´s game make you look like having an agenda only.

If there had been Mascherano on the bench your statements would make sense but who else is around? Even if you think he isn´t up to your royal standards you should give him credit for his workrate to make up for our captain fantastic, putting himself out of the game because of pure stupidity.

He clearly didn´t deserve to be slatted after today´s game. In no way.

[Sangria]

He's just not up to the standard of Alonso or Mascherano.

And I don't think he will be.

Just shows you have low standards. Me, I think Lucas will never be as good as Souness, and for that reason, he'll always be shit.

Like I said, Lucas would fit comfortably into Dalglish's 87-88 side. Even the one that beat Forest 5-0 would be improved by the inclusion of Lucas.

[leivapool]

It´s the timing. You coming out with this after today´s game make you look like having an agenda only.

If there had been Mascherano on the bench your statements would make sense but who else is around? Even if you think he isn´t up to your royal standards you should give him credit for his workrate to make up for our captain fantastic, putting himself out of the game because of pure stupidity.

This

[new-red]

I just don't know what people saw when they watched Lucas today.

He was not our best player.

Kelly was comfortably better for starters.

I agree that kelly was by far the standout performer today. Fantastic stuff.

Well we all saw what we usally see from lucas. Hustled his ass off. Moved the ball well and kept possession. then in the second half he tired trying to get the ball back for us and he was half as effectual. I felt bad for him because he we did not keep possession when we got the ball and therefore he never had a chance to rest from all the constant chasing.

You will start to warm to lucas over the coming weeks as our team switches to a far more fluid passing style which suits lucas perfectly. If the side starts getting some movement then lucas' passing style may come to the fore and really make an impression. It did at certain times last season when aquilani got into the team and started forcing movement from his teammates. Our passing was untouchable at times last season. I think with the current players we can reach those heights. Gerrard, Torres, Maxi, Raul, and Lucas all prefer to play the quick passing game and if Pacheco is given a look in we could become a completely fluid attacking side in the final third.

Dirk has to be relegated to the bench though, he disrupts our flow. Babel too, he doesn't have a quick enough mind to play the style well

[mercurial]

He's just not up to the standard of Alonso or Mascherano.

And I don't think he will be.

No he isn't. No team has 11 players like that. He is as good as fletcher and he has won a few trophies. I am happy with Lucas, he is young and improving and a good player all round. I think he would be part of the squad for most top teams, if not the first 11.

[Sangria]

You will start to warm to lucas over the coming weeks as our team switches to a far more fluid passing style which suits lucas perfectly. If the side starts getting some movement then lucas' passing style may come to the fore and really make an impression. It did at certain times last season when aquilani got into the team and started forcing movement from his teammates. Our passing was untouchable at times last season. I think with the current players we can reach those heights. Gerrard, Torres, Maxi, Raul, and Lucas all prefer to play the quick passing game and if Pacheco is given a look in we could become a completely fluid attacking side in the final third.

Dirk has to be relegated to the bench though, he disrupts our flow. Babel too, he doesn't have a quick enough mind to play the style well

Dalglish would have loved having Aquilani in the Molby role.

[mozilathrila]

Dalglish would have loved having Aquilani in the Molby role.

Yep, Aquilani would have been perfect, with regard to Lucas I just think people will never agree. MY particular opinion is he is a competent footballer, but he just doesn't seem to have ENOUGH of what we require, maybe in the coming months it'll change with a forward thinking manager..

[Diomedieocre]

Yep, Aquilani would have been perfect, with regard to Lucas I just think people will never agree. MY particular opinion is he is a competent footballer, but he just doesn't seem to have ENOUGH of what we require, maybe in the coming months it'll change with a forward thinking manager..

What do we require from a holding midfielder?

[M3_Raj]

think we are missing masch big time, lucas is playing against his natural game he's more attacking by nature..

[Big Dirk]

Dont see how there is a debate about this,as a partnership Lucas and Raul is no were near the level that Alonso and masch was but those 2 players wanted to leave so there is nothing we could have done about it.Dont think Lucas or Raul played well today but as a new paring they have to be given time to gel.The most worrying thing for me is the total lack of width and pace we have in the side.Kelly showed today that he can do a job at RB so when Glen returns play him RW and hopefully buy a left winger with pace and a new partner for Torres in this window.Hopefully Babel will start at Blackpool Maxi and Kuyt in the same team is just too slow.

[John C]

He's just not up to the standard of Alonso or Mascherano.
And I don't think he will be.

Must have taken you ages to think of that one

So then you don´t support him?

Its an opinion and one which many share. The lad has some class about him. He never lets us down and is maturing nicely. Will be be in Kennys starting 11 next year? Lets meet back here in 9 months to discuss that aye.

[Fiasco]

Few sloppy passes today, but overall another solid game.

[1021]

It's blindingly obvious and so springs to mind.

I don't think he's quite at the standard of Souness yet. And actually I don't think he ever will be.

VBut when we are talking about that game and that performance it is totally irrelevant.

Very good, very committed performance. I'd rank him third today in behind Reina and Kelly.
But I'd bet he put in the most yards today.

His passing is much better than people give him credit for.
He retains possessions much more than he is given credit for.
And he is composed.

Good performance today and will get better, especially when those around him up their level.

[new-red]

He's just not up to the standard of Alonso or Mascherano.

And I don't think he will be.

Well he is definitely not the standard of Alonso but then again Alonso shares a group with the likes of Xavi, Cesc, and then im struggling to find peers.

As great as Xabi Alonso was, his last season here set an impossible standard for any CM to follow. Xabi in the two previous seasons was nowhere near his form of 08/09. He was getting caught in possession, he was slow, and it looked like if you pressured him you could disrupt his game. Thats when Rafa decided to move to a more mobile, dynamic midfielder who could affect the game in more advanced areas in stead of relying on deep lying positions.

After that tremendous kick up the ass, Xabi produced world class performances week in and week out. It was remarkable.

So if you are expecting a 23 yr old lucas to produce the class of a 27 year old alonso then I think you are being very unreasonable.

As far Mascherano, Lucas is more valuable because he isn't so limited. Mascherano is probably the best defensive midfielder in the world which is all well in good but if you are gonna play in midfield you have to be able to contribute something to the attack which he provides nothing. His distribution is side to side without thought, he has no incisiveness to his game whatsoever and does not support attacks. Not to mention his horrendous shooting ability which rears its head every few matches to ill effect.

Mascherano is only valuable for the toughest fixtures and even then Lucas has shown against Chelsea that he can do the defensive job well too. He dominated that game with his tackling and passing. Mascherano does not have that ability on both ends. Its why hes not playing in barca's midfield right now. Barca bought him because they can afford it. he is a luxury that will be trotted out in the CL and spanish cup and the occasional league game.

You have to give lucas time. He is improving every year and is even improving from game to game this year.

I suspect you will only notice his quality once he reaches top class level and has his fingerprints all over games like alonso, xavi, and cesc. Otherwise he'll just be in the background to you like busquets.

[mozilathrila]

What do we require from a holding midfielder?

Ok obviously you require him to be defensively astute, to be disciplined and competent tactically, going the other way there should be a relative degree of skill, with regard to passing, shooting, composure etc. I'm not suggesting Lucas is a bad player at all, I just think there are better players in his position, like I say maybe his position has been frustrated with the people who have been in charge and we'll see a different player in the coming weeks.

[Sangria]

Yep, Aquilani would have been perfect, with regard to Lucas I just think people will never agree. MY particular opinion is he is a competent footballer, but he just doesn't seem to have ENOUGH of what we require, maybe in the coming months it'll change with a forward thinking manager..

There is nothing wrong with being an all-round competent footballer. Shankly's mode of football depends on a team of all-round competent footballers with the right mentality and determination, which Lucas practically personifies. Dalglish's Liverpool managerial career shows he made good use of players with less quality than Lucas. The challenge is finding enough of them to fill the team (and squad).

[hedger]

He done rightly again today. I will repeat what Ive said previously tho - Lucas and Meireles in CM will not get us back to the top level

[new-red]

He done rightly again today. I will repeat what Ive said previously tho - Lucas and Meireles in CM will not get us back to the top level

so how much better is a carrick-fletcher partnership over a lucas-raul partnership? They are better but not by that much, its the surrounding quality that allows them to play their best.

I honestly think a lucas-alonso or lucas-aquilani midfield would have been the midfield for years and they would have started showing it this year. Lucas can still attack but he is clearly asked to be more defensive. However, once is allowed more license to get forward he will make more attacking runs like the one against benfica.

However, for him to be able to join the attack around the box he has to be sure that we are controlling possession and we wo't be caught on a counter if he decides to take an attacking opportunity. Once this side gets settled into a rhythm we will see a more attacking lucas slowly but surely.

[hesbighesred]

There is nothing wrong with being an all-round competent footballer. Shankly's mode of football depends on a team of all-round competent footballers with the right mentality and determination, which Lucas practically personifies. Dalglish's Liverpool managerial career shows he made good use of players with less quality than Lucas. The challenge is finding enough of them to fill the team (and squad).

Yeah, I never get people pointing to Lucas all-round quality is if it were some kind of problem. I think there was a lot of truth in Sacchi's point about specialists being detrimental to the game, in the sense of how people seem to think the way to construct a team is to have x 'attacking' players and y 'defensive' players and get the proportions right, as opposed to having 11 players who are strong in many areas. Look at any sport really, it's often those who are strong in all sorts of different areas who rise to the top...I think the England cricket team at the moment is a great example of that.

[Sangria]

He done rightly again today. I will repeat what Ive said previously tho - Lucas and Meireles in CM will not get us back to the top level

I'm confident in a Meireles-Lucas pairing then, given the accuracy of your other oracles.

[hedger]

I'm confident in a Meireles-Lucas pairing then, given the accuracy of your other oracles.

which ones are they?

[hedger]

so how much better is a carrick-fletcher partnership over a lucas-raul partnership? They are better but not by that much, its the surrounding quality that allows them to play their best.

I honestly think a lucas-alonso or lucas-aquilani midfield would have been the midfield for years and they would have started showing it this year. Lucas can still attack but he is clearly asked to be more defensive. However, once is allowed more license to get forward he will make more attacking runs like the one against benfica.

However, for him to be able to join the attack around the box he has to be sure that we are controlling possession and we wo't be caught on a counter if he decides to take an attacking opportunity. Once this side gets settled into a rhythm we will see a more attacking lucas slowly but surely.

it is a lot better to be honest. Carrick, for all the criticism he gets, can dictate games and is a very good passer of the ball. Fletcher is a high energy big game player.
Lucas & Meireles just dont do enough for me. Lucas did work hard today and had a decent game but I just feel we need more. Maybe both would flourish a bit more if we had pace on the flanks?

[steveeastend]

it is a lot better to be honest. Carrick, for all the criticism he gets, can dictate games and is a very good passer of the ball. Fletcher is a high energy big game player.

Carrick or Fletcher for brasil? No way mate. This just shows for me how far off you are. There are not better, there are worse than Lucas. Both of them.

[Sangria]

which ones are they?

I remember you commenting quite a bit on Lucas and his lack of quality, and how he doesn't have any outstanding aspects. This understanding doesn't fit the philosophy of football subscribed to by Shankly, Paisley and Dalglish, the last of which I saw at their peak. Go back to your earlier posts, and you dismissed Kelly as 2nd rate. That, and other posters like you, astonished me with your shortsightedness. Most of your vitriol was aimed at Lucas though.

[red_pete]

He was fucking solid today. For large stretches of the match, he was practically the only CM we had out there. Worked his socks off, kept recycling the ball, never panicked, and hardly gave the ball away all match.

Considering he was partnered with Raul (poor game, poor decisions), Gerrard (red card), and Shelvey (rookie), the fact that United's midfield didn't walk all over us was down mostly to him.

This.

[leivapool]

it is a lot better to be honest. Carrick, for all the criticism he gets, can dictate games and is a very good passer of the ball. Fletcher is a high energy big game player.
Lucas & Meireles just dont do enough for me. Lucas did work hard today and had a decent game but I just feel we need more. Maybe both would flourish a bit more if we had pace on the flanks?

I think this is quite important.  As soon as Lucas receives the ball he is looking to move it on, usually to the flanks or his other CM partner.  He likes playing with Raul and Maxi for this reason.  They get in to good spaces which Lucas can utilise.  Kuyt is not so good at this.  Twice in the last couple of games, Lucas has had the ball, looked up, and no-one has been free.  So he's turned inside to try the other wing, no-one free again.  In the Blackburn match he actually put his hands up in frustration, as if to say "move people"!!

In a side with acttacking full backs or wingers Lucas would be even better than he is now.  He needs movement around him to see his best play.