Topic: Its not about shirts and selfies.

[Hinesy]

Liverpool, Liverpool, my club. What are they doing to you these days. Where is the clarity, the simplicity of my youth. We had a squad of 14, 11 of them played and we won. And everything else was a mystery. Tactics, signings, behind the scenes, board room battles, owners, who's who, medics, wages, agents, rumours, analysis and the release of the fixture list was nothing more than look for Everton, then Utd, then the rest.
So much has changed, I'm not nostalgic for the days of violence, dangerous stands, the baseball ground's quicksand penalty area; even the game of Chopper Harris v Tommy Smith, Billy Bremner and Kev punching eachother. No, I'm not nostalgic for that. I'm nostalgic for a time when we knew less, cared less but cared more. Cared less about the periphery, the outside, the inside and everything but. Cared more for the team, the game, the match, the 3 o'clock kick off and the simple excitement of watching us play. Its not about winning and losing, its about living in a culture that didn't try to supply 24/7 new news, a world where we were all pub pundits but not internet sages (oh the irony as I type faceless to you lot), not trying to outdo each other with in the knows, and tactical brains.

The club, the world we live in, the world of football have all changed. But so have we. We have changed into that dread word 'customers'. We expect to be entertained for our money, we expect to have a say. Entitled to voice our dissent, even god forbid boo a player. To complain and be competitive in seeing who can be the most doomladen cynic.

Its a hard life being a modern fan. Where's the outlet for your passion if you can't get to the game? Where's the release, the fight and love and want for the club. Its not about shirts and selfies. It shouldn't be about shirts and selfies. It shouldn't be about the typeface face off, the disrespectful online posturing, the bigger balls than you lad, but only from the safety of my wanking chariot.

In the days of being customers, we're all the same, we don't earn the right to be a fan, to take our seat in the pub amongst the big boys, to migrate from boys pen to Annie Road, and shout at the Kopites. No, we get to watch the same game as everyone else.

When you're in the stands, only you out of the 44,700 odd, see the match from your spec. No-one else does. You get a unique view of the match, individual. But for us now a days, who can't get to the ground, we get the same Skyeye. The same watered down sanitised musical show, and the only way to make us individuals, to be heard, to be respected, is to shout out loud, I KNOW MORE THAN YOU TWAT.

There's no more badges of honour and Liverbirds, its badges of posting numbers and 'friends'. We are fragmented. And if we are, what chance does the club have. Not the club that FSG own, the real 'club' the soul, the living sense of what it is to be a Liverpool fan.

Stand together we united (against united and the bitters). Argue at home and we are nothing more than castrated individuals, pissing in the wind on the web.


Just a grumble. Just a moan on a close season night. But surely we are more than shirts and selfies.

[Hinesy]

There you are Mutton Geoff mate, that's how I feel.

[Mutton Geoff]

That's the post I should have written totally encapsulated how I feel about the game, the club and how although at times they appear undeserving of this I feel sympathy for the modern day fans, the game was easy supporting in our day was straight forward and there was some cohesion between us and the club.

[Hinesy]

totally agree Geoff mate.

[Titi Camara]

I place the blame almost exclusively at the door of Sly Sports.

They may have emerged due to a desire or even a need of the general public for live games in their homes, heralded as saviours of the English game, pumping millions of pounds into the system to allow an influx of foreign players, but I'm sure even then many knew they would strip the game of it's current persona and stick something artificial, "plastic", in it's place.

So there it is, as well as owning that rag he also brought about the downfall of the romantic notion of the football supporter and with it the game we once loved!

Rupert Murdoch is a c*nt!

[Hinesy]

Moving this wee rant over.

[The Gulleysucker]

Great post my man.

[john_mac]

That's all well and good but who are we signing and when are we sacking the manager?

[TheTeflonJohn]

That's all well and good but who are we signing and when are we sacking the manager?

Can I have that to go with a foot long and a frappe?

Good post that Hinsey.

[LiverBirdKop]

Don't know about others, but I've been watching qualifiers and Copa America and the quality is just awful (few, FEW exceptions).

Has our current state and the state of footie in general made me footie depressed or am I just turning into...... a bitter?? Madness.

[LiverBirdKop]

Oh yeah, and great OP.

[TSC]

Yep good post.  Doesn't help that the growth of all things internet, etc, have taken place during a period where we've on the whole been fairly poor.  Wonder how different it would be if it also coincided with success. It would certainly make it easier no doubt.

[Gnurglan]

Good OP.

My match day experience is limited, so I'm clouded by things that happen in other sports as well. I'm torn between different things. On one hand, I too like the time when we knew less. It was all about the game. Had I had access to Internet, I would have known more. I would have searched for information the easy way. For sure. But I liked some of it.

The other side of it, is I want to move with time. I don't want to be one of those who just long for the past and say things were better. That's what old people do. Not primarily old in age, but old in the mind. What I don't like though, is the 'customer' thing. The effects are best seen in the atmosphere at the games. Or on the Internet. There seems to be a wish from somewhere that everyone just goes to his/her seat, sits down, buys something in the shop, gets the drink and don't really interfere with the show. What I miss the most, is the simplicity. You turn up at the game, you find your spot and join in. Great things can happen from that. You meet up with new people, you have a laugh, you react to what's going on and it's just more fun. There's less of a demand that 'I have the right to get this after paying this much'. I don't get to too many games, but this is what I experience when I've been to away games, or to a European game. It's more of a laugh. Somehow I believe this is reflected in the match day atmosphere too. Away fans have more fun. It's more of the traditional stuff.

Somewhere though, I'd like to think that there is this middle way. Times change. Mobile phones have only been around for twenty years. With a camera attached, maybe ten years. People carry them around all the time now. We must accept that it's part of life these days. I don't want to have either or, I think we need to accept a bit of a mix. That's how things go. Had mobile phones been around in the '60s or '70s, I'm sure people would have brought them to games and used them. My feeling is that it would have been less 'structured' than today, that's all. I'd imagine that people would have done other things. For example, had everyone try a new ring tone when the opponents had a penalty. Things like that. Someone gets an idea, everyone tries it. Today, you'd have to organise it. That's how it feels. I'd like that kind of 'anarchy' back. Where fans decide and don't accept being a silent customer who does what he's told.

[MiserableP15]

Said it before, I'll say it again. Wouldn't be the end of the world if we got relegated.

Well, it obviously would, but you know what I mean.

[telekon]

I place the blame almost exclusively at the door of Sly Sports.

The information age coupled with late capitalism innit. If Sky wasn't there something else would take its place and do more or less the same things.

It's bollocks, and even though I wasn't around I still get nostalgic of the times that Hinesy mention. Imagine not knowing anything, and just enjoy the football and the club.

[meady1981]

Great post.
Just thought I'd translate for some of the younger viewers...

[edeyj]

Can it be that it was oh-so simple then?
And has time re-written every line?
And if we had the chance to do it all again,
Tell me would we, could we?

Too fucking right I would.

How great was it to be a Reds fan in the 70's and 80's? Not just because we challenged for everything and won most. But because we were Liverpool. Reds all over the world but grounded in L4. It was great and in the end I (we?) took it for granted.

I wonder where we go from here? Where will football end up in 10 or 20 years time? Will the whole fucking thing implode or will the money men continue to take away the game that the normal working man (and woman) at one time owned in spirit? I hate to think.

I'm just glad that I supported during those great times. I hope it comes around again. Fingers crossed.

[Packalacky]

The club, the world we live in, the world of football have all changed. But so have we. We have changed into that dread word 'customers'. We expect to be entertained for our money, we expect to have a say. Entitled to voice our dissent, even god forbid boo a player. To complain and be competitive in seeing who can be the most doomladen cynic.

First, great post Hinesy.

Second, regarding the quoted part, I think it comes down to price. The club, in fact every club in the Prem, have priced a certain demographic of the population out of the club. When you have to pay £60 to watch a game, then expectations change. The connection between the working class fan and the club has been broken and it'll never come back.

[Paul JH]

Brilliant post.

[Pistolero]

excellent post / lament.....sad thing is the vast majority of people reading it won't have a clue what it means

[Spongebob Redpants]

Good post , but these days it is about the shirts and selfies for plenty . Sky , the internet , saturation coverage everywhere .

Wouldn't like to see a return to the darker days , but at least if you went back then there was an edge and excitement at the game that you just don't get anymore . Fuckin scary at times but there was no doubting the passion surrounding it .

The moans aren't confined to us , it's prevalent across all divisions but more so the premier league for obvious reasons .

Match going experience - sterile shite more like.

[Mutton Geoff]

Said it before, I'll say it again. Wouldn't be the end of the world if we got relegated.

Well, it obviously would, but you know what I mean.

that would be full circle for me

[john_mac]

Right, off to get s new phone and queue for an 11 Firmio shirt

[phoenician]

[Gnurglan]

Right, off to get s new phone and queue for an 11 Firmio shirt

  Don't forget the selfie stick.

[Mutton Geoff]

  Don't forget the selfie stick.

and the lipgloss

[john_mac]

  Don't forget the selfie stick.

How could I?

[Johns_Barn]

What's sadder in my eyes is fan's inability to see past our partisan divides and not be able to truly come together and say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGIY5Vyj4YM

[armchair-fan]

Obviously we're football fans, on a football forum, so it makes sense we're talking about football, but I don't think it's a football thing, or not just a football thing.  In the same way we don't have to shop at Arkwright's corner shop, we can all shop at a homogenous Tesco/Sainsburys, which knocks out the same products if you're in Cornwall or Wallsend.  You can grow up in Somerset and be a massive fan of obscure US hip hop and probably know more about it than some kid in Detroit.  In many respects the fact that we're all connected and have access to information in a way that was inconceivable even 20 years ago, is a wonderful thing.  I wouldn't for a second want to 'uninvent' the internet, even if that were possible.  However, it can mean things end up a bit bland and uniform and global brands (and for better or worse Liverpool FC is a global brand) can overwhelm smaller, local products.

I recall even as (comparatively) recently as the 80s the incredible excitement of a World Cup, when you got a chance to see the players you'd either vaguely heard of by reputation or some totally unknown kid turned up and knocked you for six.  Nowadays you can sit in your pants in front of your laptop on a weekend and watch Serie A, Budesliga, La Liga or whatever else, just as you can sit in Hong Kong, watch every minute of every Liverpool game, access all the heat maps and stats, and make a detailed critique of where Rodgers has gone wrong tactically.  Similarly I grew up in a medium sized provincial city in England, and by the early 90s I was getting quite into my trainers, but if I wanted to get a cool/off beat pair I had to get on a train and get to a big city where they sold such things, nowadays you could be in the middle of the North Yorkshire Moors, click on the right website and have the best hipster gear delivered tomorrow.

Am I now rambling off topic?  Possibly, I've taken a few drinks....

One last thing, singing at the match - again, not just at football, I think we're a much less communal society, than a generation ago.  Most of us aren't in a church, or a trade union, or even regulars at a local pub (again I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad or a good thing, it's just the way things have gone).  The things you can do in the comfort of your own house, films on demand or whatever, there's no need to go out, we're much more individualistic.  I think a lot of people are scared of possibly looking like a dickhead by really losing yourself and shouting and screaming at the top of your voice in among a crowd of 10,000 others.

[ConqueredAllOfEurope]

Obviously we're football fans, on a football forum, so it makes sense we're talking about football, but I don't think it's a football thing, or not just a football thing.  In the same way we don't have to shop at Arkwright's corner shop, we can all shop at a homogenous Tesco/Sainsburys, which knocks out the same products if you're in Cornwall or Wallsend.  You can grow up in Somerset and be a massive fan of obscure US hip hop and probably know more about it than some kid in Detroit.  In many respects the fact that we're all connected and have access to information in a way that was inconceivable even 20 years ago, is a wonderful thing.  I wouldn't for a second want to 'uninvent' the internet, even if that were possible.  However, it can mean things end up a bit bland and uniform and global brands (and for better or worse Liverpool FC is a global brand) can overwhelm smaller, local products.

I recall even as (comparatively) recently as the 80s the incredible excitement of a World Cup, when you got a chance to see the players you'd either vaguely heard of by reputation or some totally unknown kid turned up and knocked you for six.  Nowadays you can sit in your pants in front of your laptop on a weekend and watch Serie A, Budesliga, La Liga or whatever else, just as you can sit in Hong Kong, watch every minute of every Liverpool game, access all the heat maps and stats, and make a detailed critique of where Rodgers has gone wrong tactically.  Similarly I grew up in a medium sized provincial city in England, and by the early 90s I was getting quite into my trainers, but if I wanted to get a cool/off beat pair I had to get on a train and get to a big city where they sold such things, nowadays you could be in the middle of the North Yorkshire Moors, click on the right website and have the best hipster gear delivered tomorrow.

Am I now rambling off topic?  Possibly, I've taken a few drinks....

One last thing, singing at the match - again, not just at football, I think we're a much less communal society, than a generation ago.  Most of us aren't in a church, or a trade union, or even regulars at a local pub (again I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad or a good thing, it's just the way things have gone).  The things you can do in the comfort of your own house, films on demand or whatever, there's no need to go out, we're much more individualistic.  I think a lot of people are scared of possibly looking like a dickhead by really losing yourself and shouting and screaming at the top of your voice in among a crowd of 10,000 others.

The whole post is great but that last paragraph is absolutely spot on, especially the line about doing things in the comfort of your own home. I'm 21 and even I'm amazed at how much you can do on a laptop, tablet and even smartphones. Technology has ruined a lot of social aspects in life and I think that carries over to match days.

[houkura]

Interesting perspective from someone with nearly 20,000 posts on an internet forum. I'm being serious.

[john_mac]

Transfers are boss aren't they, there are people with opinions on Nicaraguan youth players, it doesn't matter who the media throw into the air, everyone has an opinion, and by the media I mean any gobshite with a platform.

Once someone is signed, the fenzy moves onto the next fella. Stats, YouTube and wikipedia'd up to death,these c*nts know more about Iranian football than Geoff Twentyman ever knew about the parks of Merseyside.

Then come September the 2nd all of the pricks they've been raving about all summer turn to shite and it's time to draft in Santiago Big Bollox from the under 8s

[meady1981]

Have you got any heat maps of Santiago Big Bollox to back that up mate.

[brownee61]

Great OP, could not agreed more, the first paragraph is the the one thing I've seen in a long time on RAWK that relates to how I feel.

'the 3 o'clock kick off and the simple excitement of watching us play'

This line above is one of the things I miss the most........

[armchair-fan]

The whole post is great but that last paragraph is absolutely spot on, especially the line about doing things in the comfort of your own home. I'm 21 and even I'm amazed at how much you can do on a laptop, tablet and even smartphones. Technology has ruined a lot of social aspects in life and I think that carries over to match days.

Cheers for the comment!  It's weird isn't it?  Regarding our ability to do all these things, I sort of love it and hate it all at the same time.  I discovered just the other week I can point the camera on my phone at any writing, and the phone instantly translates it all into French.  I mean, WTF?!  To think I spent 5 years in a classroom trying to learn all that crap.  It's also killed the 'pub debate', it's impossible to have a debate about, let's say 'Who scored the winner in the '86 cup semi final?', what's the point, couple of clicks on your smart phone and you have the definitive answer right there, so best find something else to talk about!

As my forays to Anfield are fairly few and far between it's massively difficult to restrain myself from a cheeky selfie to post on twitter, or taking a video of the Kop singing YNWA rather than joining in.  Because, you're as excited as fuck and you want your 'followers' to know you're there (as meaningless as that sounds).  I imagine if you went every week, the temptation wouldn't be so great, and probably the excitement also would drop off, as with anything.  It's only because I'm on here fairly often and I know the complete disdain that any regular would have for me waving the smartphone about that I manage to hold off (ditto buying anything from the club shop/wearing a replica shirt to the match!).  If I'd splashed a couple of grand, and travelled over from Australia, and hadn't read people's views on RAWK, I couldn't promise I wouldn't be posting vines, carrying round a club shop plaggy bag and complaining about the lack of wifi in the ground.

I love my rare opportunities to go to the game, you really do get a different perspective (in a literal sense) than watching on TV/online.  If you so choose you could watch Dejan Lovren for 90 minutes and nobody else, you notice little things that you just don't get a chance to on TV - sure the right back may have not given the ball away all game when it came to him, but you don't notice that he's done fuck all the support the midfielders by making any runs forward, etc, etc.  But then looking at it as a 'customer', and they want us to be customers, if I paid a tenner at Vue and the seat was brutally uncomfortable, and the queue to buy a drink was so long I ended up having to fuck off the idea, I'd whinge a bit and probably not bother and just red button a film next time around.  To many/most of us, watching your team isn't an equivalent to the other leisure activities, it's more than that, but the 'experience' most stadiums provide in comparison to the £ they charge is crap, but I suppose as long as they can flog the tickets for top money, why would the owners worry?

[Pistolero]

Once someone is signed, the fenzy moves onto the next fella. Stats, YouTube and wikipedia'd up to death,these c*nts know more about Iranian football than Geoff Twentyman ever knew about the parks of Merseyside.

The transfer thread in the shell of a nut

[Mutton Geoff]

I know i give these modern day fans some stick but if they have never 'Walked in our Shoes' they can never understand what the problem is with the way they act and post.

We had the best of times and we are all guilty of reminding them of that fact:

We had a game full of characters with just a bit more honesty on the pitch, we watched a game when you got a free kick and penalty for being fouled you didn't win one. We had the feeling that we were all one entity on the Kop around the ground and on the pitch, they have probably never experienced that and sadly they never will to the same extent as we did.

We knew the club when it wasn't a commodity of the rich or a branch of entertainment the same as going to the west end to see a musical or play, it was a working and lower middle class enclave.

One other thing has changed inevitably but for me sadly we learnt about the game on the pitch not on some Youtube vignette or Computer Game.

So as Hinesy suggested it wasn't all Shirts and Selfies back then and thank Christ for that.

[L666KOP]

Liverpool, Liverpool, my club.

Good post that mate.

The key word for me in amongst your post is 'customer'.
Because that's what 'we' want nowadays. The supporters are no longer top of the tree.

I went to the Ethiad last season, and they've got what appears to be a brilliant set up there. But there's just too much of the 'experience' about it all. It's like they're catering just for people that don't really support the club. There was a stage with a band playing on it, even a fucking juggler. Imagine that, going the footy and seeing someone juggling 
Bars galore, every type of food outlet you could imagine.

It all seemed a bit American for my liking, almost as if the match wasn't the most important thing you went for ?

It's all a bit different from when I was a regular, few ales and a burger that kept you glued the bog on Sunday was all we got, but then, that was all we ever wanted.
Well, that and 2 points.

[Gnurglan]

Cheers for the comment!  It's weird isn't it?  Regarding our ability to do all these things, I sort of love it and hate it all at the same time.  I discovered just the other week I can point the camera on my phone at any writing, and the phone instantly translates it all into French.  I mean, WTF?!  To think I spent 5 years in a classroom trying to learn all that crap.  It's also killed the 'pub debate', it's impossible to have a debate about, let's say 'Who scored the winner in the '86 cup semi final?', what's the point, couple of clicks on your smart phone and you have the definitive answer right there, so best find something else to talk about!



To many/most of us, watching your team isn't an equivalent to the other leisure activities, it's more than that, but the 'experience' most stadiums provide in comparison to the £ they charge is crap, but I suppose as long as they can flog the tickets for top money, why would the owners worry?

I think you captured something there, with that comment about French. You may be able to translate something with your phone, but it's just the 'nice' part of it. Once you know the language, you will see things differently. You can draw your own conclusions. In that film with Matt Damon and Robin Williams, there's a scene where Robin Williams says you can probably tell me all about the paintings in the Sixtinth Chapel, but you don't know what it's like to experience it. I think this is true for football as well. Everything isn't cold facts. But cold facts is something easier to control.
Somewhere in everything with phones etc, I believe there is a grain of something good. People can create their own experience. I don't know how or where it is. It's not taking photos beside a mascot and that crap, but I think we could see something good come out of it. Eventually. The atmosphere of the old days wasn't always there. It was started by someone.


The pub debates, understand what you mean, but it's also good to get the answers nowadays!

The big question for the owners is - if you are reduced to being a silent, loyal customer, where's the experience you pay for? If the very essence of the experience disappears, they can lose a lot more than they think. It's in their interest to have a bit of stuff they can't control.

[Hinesy]

Interesting perspective from someone with nearly 20,000 posts on an internet forum. I'm being serious.

Ha ha! Moot.