Topic: To DM Or Not To DM

[sattapaartridge]

I really rate Can, I'd be wary about playing him as a DM. I think his instinct is to go forward, be on the front foot. If he were a DM would he'd be getting pulled out of position and leaving the CB's exposed and them facing up to free running mid-field is what did for us in the first 1/3rd of the season.

Its weird isnt it? I'm sure if you didnt see these bursts forward, he wouldnt be rated at all. I think he picks the right moment to get forward, he sees the game well from the back and where the gaps are.

Sure, he's not got the positional awareness of Lucas (yet), but he sure is stronger and quicker than the lovable Brazilian. I think he needs to start playing the position in pre-season so that we can see what he can do in a midfield 3 rather than a defensive 3.

BTW I've totally forgot about that Kenyan-Belgian we bought last year. I really hope he's more Ian Rush (Quick, hard working, scores goals) than Balotelli (Quick, powerful, doesnt score goals.)

[Not A Scouser]

How about a hybrid set up?  Our most successful defensive period had "three at the back" but Can was quite clearly told to push the ball as far forward as he could before the space was closed down.  He was a central defender/driving mid-fielder.  Clearly that is an attribute that Rodgers wants from a nominally defensive player.

On the other hand I believe that Can is a player who is much more comfortable facing away from his goalkeeper rather than coming to collect while the centre backs split and turning with the ball.  Under those circumstances I believe the opposition could take him entirely out of the game by pressing him.  I think the opposite is true of Lucas, he's not going to maraud forward with the ball at his feet, but he can face both ways with skill, but is a 100% defensive player.

Under Rodgers the ideal player in this position is the same as it would be for every coach, tall, strong, fast, intelligent, technically good with the ability to advance the ball rapidly through long passes or dribbling the ball.  Basically Gerrard in 2005 with strong defensive discipline.  That would be a candidate for best player in the world.

So what is needed is organizing things in such a way that the necessary attributes are available using the necessarily incomplete players available.  I suggest a weird three at the back with a defensive midfielder in front of it, but one that moves around a lot.

           Can     Skrtel    Sakho

                       Lucas

defensively, how everyone would write down the formation.  But in an attacking sense you would have more of a box with Lucas dropping as the deeper playmaker, facing his goal as Skrtel and Sakho split while Can advances to be more of a box to box midfielder.

      Skrtel                      Sakho
                         Lucas
              Can

which is more like the 433 triangles Rodgers likes.

This requires game intelligence and the understanding of each others' roles at a high level.  It's a huge amount of work for Can and so he will need covering when "out of position" which requires hard-working, intelligent midfielders which is what Henderson and Milner would be for.

#1  ideally Matic
#2  two players, one who can defend but also turn and distribute.  The other can defend and dribble ahead strongly

[sempi]

I totally agree. It gives the attacking players a platform to build on, it helps the CBs, its easier to attack with the FBs, and it a great option to have off the bench if you need play for the result towards the end of a match. Last season showed that we need to improve both the attack and defense, and i think a more balanced midfield would be key to doing both at the same time.

 

Didi Hamaan gave us great solidity and when Masch arrived I thought we had replaced him. Lucas as you know took a long time to get used to the role. I think we need a specialist and go fromthere.

[incredibleL4ever]

If you are going to go with wing backs, then you need a DM.  Otherwise the CB's are too exposed.  CB's are not there to cover runners from midfield or wingers.  They cover the centre forwards and otherwise are last line of defence.  You cannot have your last line be your first line also.
I appreciate that if we play possession football then we will not have to defend as much, but we still will have to defend properly at times in every single game.
Emre Can may be the one to take this job, but he has to learn the position, especially the holding part of it.
For me Alonso was a master at this job in recent years.   He would sit 20 yards behind the play and every time RM (as it was then) lost the ball he would be there, to put in a tackle.  You dont need to win every tackle, just be in the right position to get a tackle in.  That will buy you enough time for the other, who had gone forward, to get back.

[Scarlet`]

In the off season, I've been watching my home team Toronto FC.  They have Benoit Cheyrou as their DM and play 4-1-2-1-2 diamond with Cheyrou sitting right in front of the defence cleaning stuff up.  How I missed that from our Liverpool team.

I'm actually not too bothered about striker signings but we need a proper defensive midfielder whether it is the Mascherano style or the Hamann style.  Hell, if Cann can do it, then by all means play him there and mold him into one.  We need some calm presence in front of the defence being the initial shield to blunt any attack coming our way. 

[MihawkLFC]

To be honest the question isn't easy to answer. The top teams in front of us don't have the typical destroying DM that many of you wish that we had.
We don't necessarily need one if we get the personal Brendan wants or would have liked to have at his disposal from the beginning.

If you look at our current personal, I would argue that we'd be fine without having one. But that also means that we got to drop two of our most played players from last season to the bench.
First Martin Skrtel. He is brilliant at what he does - defending. But his instinct to drop deep and not move forward is going to kill us if we don't have a defensive midfielder to occupy the space that he leaves behind (make us look compact)
I would argue that if we play Can instead of Skrtel (and not alongside him for a back three) we could solve that problem easily, it would also make us a poor mans barcelona and we only would have one weakness in our team to sort out for that playing style.

And that weakness is player number two: Simon Mignolet - a brilliant shot stopper with cat like reflexes but his distribution and reading of the game are somewhat not up the standards you need for a possession based style of play. We can't push our backline forward with him between the sticks as it would expose his weaknesses. Something you should never do with your goalkeeper. As it is we have no better option at the club and I don't see us investing in another goalkeeper to dispatch Simon, which I think is fair enough but it also collides with the ideals Brendan has in mind and how he would love to set up his team. (Obviously not hard facts, but how I interpreted his several interviews)

The formation without those two would be looking like this:

--------------------- New Goalkeeper -------------------
------------Can-------------------------Sakho------------
New RB ------------------------------------------ Moreno
--------------------------Allen------------------------------
---------Milner---------------------Henderson------------
Sterling------------------------------------------Coutinho
------------------------Sturridge--------------------------

Without a doubt putting Can there is a big risk and in an ideal world you would replace Allen from the starting lineup but I think this lineup would suit most of our players and Rodgers way more then the way we've been playing lately (including the back three, which is basically set up to accommodate Migs and Skrtel). You could also change either of Henderson/Milner for Coutinho/Lallana for teams that park the bus and put another winger/wide forward out there (Origi, Markovic, Ings - you name it)

But as things stand, we need to deploy Lucas in the postion Allen occupies and drop our defense deep, looking for the counter. And then our main problem isn't the DM, it's the pace we got without Sturridge. So we should maybe adress that first

[mikey_LFC]

Any possibility he would want to move to the Barca model currently of having a DM like Mascherano move to CB... Maybe Lucas. We've seen some of it with Can there but the idea seems to be have some tenacious bulldog who will get across to everything as last man and then play the ball.

Lucas can do that... Currently we've got Skrtel doing a similar job in defending as almost a sweeper making last gasp crunching challenges but adding Lucas in there who can do the same next to a CB like Sakho would be perfect for Rodgers football I think and would cost nothing. It allows the DM position to almost become a play maker or orchestrator along the lines of a Busquets who just keeps the ball ticking but can go past a player or two, i.e. Can or Allen.

Just something maybe a bit outside the box that could be an option. Signing someone like Song could help in that regard too.

[Billy Blaze]

Any possibility he would want to move to the Barca model currently of having a DM like Mascherano move to CB... Maybe Lucas. We've seen some of it with Can there but the idea seems to be have some tenacious bulldog who will get across to everything as last man and then play the ball.

Lucas can do that... Currently we've got Skrtel doing a similar job in defending as almost a sweeper making last gasp crunching challenges but adding Lucas in there who can do the same next to a CB like Sakho would be perfect for Rodgers football I think and would cost nothing. It allows the DM position to almost become a play maker or orchestrator along the lines of a Busquets who just keeps the ball ticking but can go past a player or two, i.e. Can or Allen.

Just something maybe a bit outside the box that could be an option. Signing someone like Song could help in that regard too.

Lucas at CB . Are you serious? That would not work at all. I don't know why you think Busquets is a playmaker. He isn't. He is a defensive midfielder, playing almost the exact same way as Matic. It would not make any sense for us to make those changes.

We should buy a defensive midfielder if we want to play with one(or play Can as a DM).   

[arab88]

It's Busquets who's DM in Barcelona and not Mascherano...

[poopscoop]

Think we need to keep Lucas at all costs and then buy a backup for him when he gets injured. If the 3 years has shown anything its that our defense is a leaky cauldron. Lucas plugs a hole, and helps keep those numbers down. It's when he's not playing that we have problems.

We either need to be scoring 3/4 goals a game to offset that or we need to solidify the defense. Lucas does that job, it needs all the help it can get.

Succinct and correct. I'll be very disappointed if Lucas leaves the club this summer without a like for like or upgrade coming in. Massively underrated player in my opinion.

[MihawkLFC]

It's Busquets who's DM in Barcelona and not Mascherano...

That is exactly what he said mate

[mikey_LFC]

Lucas at CB . Are you serious? That would not work at all. I don't know why you think Busquets is a playmaker. He isn't. He is a defensive midfielder, playing almost the exact same way as Matic. It would not make any sense for us to make those changes.

We should buy a defensive midfielder if we want to play with one(or play Can as a DM).   

But is Lucas not a similar style player to Mascherano, who plays centre back for Barcelona, who Rodgers greatly admires, have just won the champions league and conceded 19 goals all season. Why could it not possibly work. He could easily play in a similar sweeper role to Skrtel alongside Sakho which involves getting across tackling and distributing the ball into the midfield and to the full backs mostly. He is an intelligent player, so should be able to adapt his game. It's not such a different role to the a defensive midfielder, who covers for the centre midfielders and helps out full backs. He is one of our best tacklers and is fantastic and covering players, often interceptions lose balls after people dribble past a man.

As for Busquets, I won't get drawn off topic as it was meant as a comparison to how we could play Can. The idea here is basically that the player does some covering for the midfield in a similar way to the defensive midfielder but much of his game revolves around possession and moving the ball, acting as a metronome for the team. Due to the nature of the tactics, you try to dominate possession and move the ball quickly around the box pressing the ball into gaps the forwards create through quick, sudden movements. The Busquets role actually involves a lot more to do with passing and creating attacks in the transitional areas of the pitch, as well as trying to poke holes in opposition defences, than classic defensive work. It's far different from how Mascherano plays when in the similar position. It's about what you do with the ball not without it. That's why someone like Can would be perfect for that role, rather than a Lucas who can play further back if you manage to control the game with the ball in an effective manner.

[A Dick]

In a word - yes.

Nemanja Matic was so important to Chelsea this year. Even Barcelona needs a Busquets. Arsenal turned their form around when Arteta got injured and Coquelin came in (like people had been telling Wenger to do for about a decade).

If you look at when our defenders struggle it is when teams have run at us, Skrtel, Sakho, Lovren back-pedalling towards our own goal always ends badly. Look at what happens when we play against Yannick Bolasie!! This would happen far less often if they had a screen in front of them and more importatly a man who filled in at full-back when they go forward - which Rodgers insists they do - like Mascherano used to do so well.

I'd love Lucas to be fit enough to play 38 games. When he's had runs in the team before both the team and him have always found serious form. Of our current crop you'd have to say Can is probably best suited to the role when Lucas isn't available. I look at the Milner signing though and it feels like we won't be having one unless we lose one of our attacking players - Lallana or Ibe being the most likely to miss out.

So we could go:

          Can/Lucas
     Hendo       Milner
Sterling             Coutinho
           Sturridge

But realistically? I'd expect:

       Hendo        Milner
Lallana     Coutinho     Sterling
              Sturridge

I'd prefer the latter but our current personnel suggests we won't be doing it. Even Allen's a bit lightweight in that DM position.

There is one other solution and that is get Flanno fit or sign a Flanno-esque player!! The lack of a DM is highlighted because both our full-backs bomb forward. If you look at our 3 most succesful teams of the last couple years they are ones which had Finnan, Arbeloa and Flanagan. They were rarely all the way up at the byline and it meant we had a back 3 at all times, unlike now when one direct pass to feet and we can find Skrtel and Sakho being run at outnumbered.

[jepovic]

I hope Brendan doesn't over complicate things and try to outsmart the rest of the football world.  Most teams have a DM whose primary (not only) job is to slow down and stop attacks, and they have it for good reasons. There are exceptions, like Pirlo, but they are rare. Some teams might not admit having one, but they do.

I really like Lucas and players similar to him, who not only stop tons of attacks but are also very good at building up. However, I wouldn't mind having a more pure destroyer, a mascherano-type, in the squad. There are many matches and situations where such players can be really useful, like when you are 3-0 down in a CL final :-)

[Big Bamber]

Neil on TAW often recounts the number of transfers windows it is now that BR has not signed a DM, going back well before his LFC days. I think it is crucial that it is given careful consideration because Mingloet's resurrection was coincident with three at the back which was coincident with a fall off in our threat level up front. A DM could be a key piece of the puzzle of regaining our teeth up front.

[incredibleL4ever]

Rodgers is a student particularly of Barcelona. 
This was Barca v Man City from this year.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-pAuNgUYAEyFVd.jpg
A classical DM position with attacking full backs.  See how far forward Rakatic and Iniesta get, almost as far as the front 3.  They can do this because (a) they have the ball most of the time and (b) Busquets stays in position.

This is Barca v Madrid from March, Barca in white.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAvC2j-UUAASW7i.jpg
They were under more pressure in this one but still Mascherano, who is playing at DM this time (what a players this man is) sits in front of the back 4. This time Iniesta (almost hidden by Isco) cant get as far forward and has to cover the forward runs of Marcelo.  This is more of a 4-2-1-3, but still definate holding midfielders watching for the opposition to break out.

I really don't understand why Rodgers can't see the need for someone dedicated to this role.

[ShayGuevara]

We don't need a DM destroyer type. if we press properly we shouldn't need a specialist player cleaning up, just someone who can cover space and make link play from defence to attack.

[-Daws-]

We don't need a DM destroyer type. if we press properly we shouldn't need a specialist player cleaning up, just someone who can cover space and make link play from defence to attack.

If we press properly, then someone who is a specialist at sweeping behind the midfield is exactly what we need. If we don't have that then the centre backs are exposed if the press gets beaten.

[northern Monkey]

The argument against a DM seems to come down more to labels than philosophy.  Call it a DM a Controller or even an advanced sweeper, whatever but it seems almost everyone wants one.

Seems to me we usually try to press aggressively but if we are passed through by quality or out fought we then have an exposed soft centre.  We don't protect our area nearly enough. The midfield and full backs press but that is plan a b and c? 

I don't think we need so much a destroyer sat in there so much as a reader of the game who can step up or drop in as needed by the situation and then keep the ball moving.

We have one in Lucas who I've always rated highly bit can we rely on his fitness? Can someone like Emre fit the role. Maybe but in his case we would need discipline and judgement from the two ahead to cover him when he bursts forward.  I think Rodgers would want Can to keep that element of his game much more than Rafa did with Lucas when he came in who we should remember wasn't bought as someone known for his DM ability.

[lionel_messias]

For me, we are exposed so often defensively that it's kind of a no-brainer. The other issue that Coutinho, Milner and Hendo are best when they are free to press and attack, having a tactically aware player behind them is a massive boon.

Arguably, it could be Lucas, with Can stepping in when he isn't fit, but probably better to upgrade if Asier 'Mendi, or Kongdogbia are available, upgrade in this position and up front for the biggest up lift in team performance next season?

[Coolie High]

But is Lucas not a similar style player to Mascherano, who plays centre back for Barcelona, who Rodgers greatly admires, have just won the champions league and conceded 19 goals all season. Why could it not possibly work. He could easily play in a similar sweeper role to Skrtel alongside Sakho which involves getting across tackling and distributing the ball into the midfield and to the full backs mostly. He is an intelligent player, so should be able to adapt his game. It's not such a different role to the a defensive midfielder, who covers for the centre midfielders and helps out full backs. He is one of our best tacklers and is fantastic and covering players, often interceptions lose balls after people dribble past a man.

As for Busquets, I won't get drawn off topic as it was meant as a comparison to how we could play Can. The idea here is basically that the player does some covering for the midfield in a similar way to the defensive midfielder but much of his game revolves around possession and moving the ball, acting as a metronome for the team. Due to the nature of the tactics, you try to dominate possession and move the ball quickly around the box pressing the ball into gaps the forwards create through quick, sudden movements. The Busquets role actually involves a lot more to do with passing and creating attacks in the transitional areas of the pitch, as well as trying to poke holes in opposition defences, than classic defensive work. It's far different from how Mascherano plays when in the similar position. It's about what you do with the ball not without it. That's why someone like Can would be perfect for that role, rather than a Lucas who can play further back if you manage to control the game with the ball in an effective manner.

Lucas is not similar in playing style to Masch, he is much much more similar to Busquets.

[Coolie High]

If we press properly, then someone who is a specialist at sweeping behind the midfield is exactly what we need. If we don't have that then the centre backs are exposed if the press gets beaten.

Exactly!

[Miltonred]

First I think it's wrong to state that Rodgers does not see the need. Last season he played Gerrard in a deep role for the latter two thirds of the season.

What he has stated is that he wants versatility. He wanted Gerrard there because of his passing range.
It's my view that he does not view the position as a dedicated role, instead he sees it as a transitional role, where one of two players sits deeper as the team transitions depending on the situation.

One central midfielder stays while one goes. Personally I think that's a bit of a pipe dream, and in the end a dedicated player with a specific skillset is better. Arsenal have discovered this the hard way, Wenger has avoided a dedicated DM for a long time, always preferring a more versatile option.
This season they he seen the benefit of Coquellin being more of a specialist.

[RedSince86]

Schneiderlin Kondogbia Bender Kranevitter

One of those 4 would be amazing in our team,i'd prefer the latter he is a Mascherano mk2 and ready to play in Europe.

[lionel_messias]

Schneiderlin Kondogbia Bender Kranevitter

One of those 4 would be amazing in our team,i'd prefer the latter he is a Mascherano mk2 and ready to play in Europe.

Good shouts. I don't know the last one, but for me I think I am unduly influenced by the Rafa years - I want us to control the midfield a bit more.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

First I think it's wrong to state that Rodgers does not see the need. Last season he played Gerrard in a deep role for the latter two thirds of the season.

What he has stated is that he wants versatility. He wanted Gerrard there because of his passing range.
It's my view that he does not view the position as a dedicated role, instead he sees it as a transitional role, where one of two players sits deeper as the team transitions depending on the situation.

One central midfielder stays while one goes. Personally I think that's a bit of a pipe dream, and in the end a dedicated player with a specific skillset is better. Arsenal have discovered this the hard way, Wenger has avoided a dedicated DM for a long time, always preferring a more versatile option.
This season they he seen the benefit of Coquellin being more of a specialist.

Well said, the fluid midfield where all 3 players take turns at all the tasks sounds great in theory, but in practice is difficult to implement. You need one player in front of the defence to assess and manage the defensive situation always, and for me, on this I would err on the side of caution and have a player who occupies the deeper spaces more often, makes less support runs. Someone like Lucas is far from a mere spoiler, he often makes very penetrative direct passes, good touch player, can build from deep, but that clear defensive brief always provides insurance to the defence, as opposed to relying 100 percent on timing for which of the 3 are supposed to be deepest at any given time.

[RedSince86]

Good shouts. I don't know the last one, but for me I think I am unduly influenced by the Rafa years - I want us to control the midfield a bit more.

The music sucks but a nice compilation.



<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wzV6IbTLXhg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wzV6IbTLXhg</a>

[007.lankyguy]

Honesly, it depends how your overall system works and what you're defining as a 'DM'. For example, I would say that Busquets is a DM - he's not a destroyer per se in that his game is so, so much more than that and his ability in possession is extraordinary but he still plays a DM role. He still has a focus on breaking up play, he still has a focus on providing cover in possession and not losing his position, he'll drop into space when needed and allow other players freedom knowing that he can cover. For all intents and purposes, he is a DM. At the same time, there's clearly a lot of difference between him and Matic for example.

For me a DM is a midfielder who has a primary defensive focus. What I mean by that is that a midfielder whose contributions within the system are primarily or at least sizeably defensive can be described as a DM. Obviously it's not quite as simple as that and there are caveats to that but I think it's important to both distinguish between a role and a position. Unfortunately we're kind of stuck in that positions are often used as an indication of role and as such it's difficult to sum up where and what a player does, especially in a time when someone like Guardiola has made it difficult to define someone by their position.

For example, if we play Coutinho on the left, is he a LW? His role isn't that of a winger but he's playing in that position, that area of the field. So what do you call him? Gerrard last season primarily played deep because of his passing. Yet he was playing in that area of the pitch that has generally been thought of as a defensive area. Guardiola played there as well and yet Cruyff said he couldn't defend. Gattuso didn't play in the deepest position in midfield when he was at Milan; Pirlo did. Yet his primary contribution was hardly an attacking one. So do you call him a defensive midfielder or do you call Pirlo a defensive midfielder? I remember when Mourinho played Khedira as Real Madrid's highest midfielder in one match, yet the primary reason for doing so was for his ability in pressing - a defensive one. Was he play as a defensive midfielder even though he was the highest midfielder on the pitch?

This is one of the things that makes it difficult to define. A player could be playing further up the pitch than another player yet doing more of a defensive job than that deeper player. You also can't label all defensive midfielders as destroyers because that's not the only criteria for a player being defensive.

So for me, I think there is a certain amount of common sense involved when labelling a player a DM. If their primary skill and focus is a defensive one, be it breaking up play or covering space or their work rate defensively or their intelligence in holding a position then they might be labelled a DM. Do we need a player who has, among his primary focuses in our system, a defensive focus? Whose role is more of a defensive one than the others in midfield? Yes. Do we need that at the base of our midfield? Yes and I'd say because of Rodgers' open system, it's almost a necessity. Even when we played Gerrard as the pivot, we still had the likes of Henderson and Allen contributing a huge amount defensively and covering a lot of ground for him. Even then, that wasn't enough.

We don't need a destroyer per se and I think because of Rodgers' philosophy in terms of technical ability and intelligence in midfield, we will not and should not bring in a Momo Sissoko type player. I do however think we need a defensive midfielder (especially because of the passivity of our backline) who can and will control the space between the lines, who will help stop our back line defenders getting isolated 1v1 and who will cover space, as well as breaking up play.

[RedHopper]

The way barcelona defend as a back four is something that pep guardiola learned in italy. When the opposition have the ball close to goal, the back four form a line of four across the edge of the box, with a screening midfielder. He either wins the balls through Interceptions mostly, and the occasional tackle, but usually he's just shepherding the player with the ball into an area where one of the two centre halves comes out from the defence to win the ball back with a tackle, while the other three shuffle closer to each other to prevent a gap from developing. This is how barcelona are able to get away with a Centre half as small as mascherano. He's not there to win headers. He's there to be the one who comes out and sweeps up after busquets has delayed the attack. Pique is there to sweep up after him.

This is not too disimilar to the way that jose mourinho's early chelsea teams, or that Carrick, Vidic, Ferdinand  worked. It requires a tactically shrewd deep lying midfielder, a stopper centre half who can come out and win the ball, and three other defenders tactically aware enough not to leave gaps. We don't necessarily need some tough tackling he man like mascherano to sit in front of our midfield. What we need is someone with the discipline and tactical awareness to shield the centre of our defence, and operate in conjunction with the back four to make the area in front of our goal a dead zone like it was under rafa at his peak.

but we also need that player to be able to move up the pitch when play is at the other end, and to have the ability on the ball to act as the back of the midfield. The player our forwards can pass the ball back to before it gets moved off to the wings in one or two passes. But this player needs to be able to do both jobs. Lucas can't do this job any more. Henderson and Can are different sorts of players. We need to find someone a bit like Didi Hamman, or michael carrick.

[Kochevnik]

I think we're crying out for a DM so we can play a 4-2-3-1 and build the side around Coutinho, who is likely to be our best player next season.

Imagine Can and Carvalho as the modern Xabi and Masch, with Coutinho in the hole behind Sturridge.  We could probably stand to improve the opposite side across from Sterling in the 3, but that should be doable this summer (and we do have Lallana, Origi, Ibe, and Markovic already, so it's not completely rubbish).  That would be a top 4 side, in my opinion, and in 2-3 years we might have the best midfield in the league.

The problem is that we have too many 8's right now and we're adding more, which is even more curious.  Henderson is meant to be captain next year, by most accounts, and this setup doesn't really allow him to play.  Lucas can cover Carvalho, I suppose, but Allen is surplus in this scenario as there's really nowhere for him to play in the 4-2-3-1.  Milner even more so; supposedly he's been assured of a regular place in the centre of our midfield which makes this even more impossible to play.

In fact, I can't figure out what we're playing at.  Not only are we not pursuing a DM, we're going the opposite direction in setting it up so that Milner and Henderson are going to be regulars in our midfield by virtue of our offseason business.  It's mystifying, because it means we have to shuttle Coutinho, our best remaining player, out wide where he's far less effective.  A 4-2-3-1 where he's in the middle of the 3 orchestrating our attack would employ him to devastating effect, and even a 4-3-3 with Coutinho playing the Iniesta role, one of Milner/Henderson/Allen in Xavi's role is still missing our Busquets.  The only thing I can figure is that we're going to try to play a 4-4-2 diamond or, perhaps more suicidally, copy Barca's 4-3-3 but without our own Busquets.

[GregCharrua]

Rodgers came here wanting to play (and having played at Swansea) a 433 with a 2-1 in the middle. I imagine that is what he is trying to recreate. A middle three of Milner-Henderson-Coutinho could easily flip to a 1-2 as well with Milner or Hendo playing a bit deeper. My guess and hope is that the plan is to play as a legitimate pressing side next season and try to make the possession game work again but with better pieces. Busquets seems more useful for his reading of the game and his passing than for his defensive abilities, for Barca, anyway. If Barca wanted a true DM they could play Masch there but instead he's a CB for them.

Unlike some, I don't think a Hendo-Milner-Coutinho midfield would be a bad thing at all - provided we are pressing high. That's a pretty fluent midfield - its not xavi and iniesta but they can all play the ball well and put in a shift defensively and working hard the entire 90 minutes. The only thing missing is a better range of passing but if we're holding the ball and pressing high maybe that won't be a problem.

Of course the other key besides pressing is having the right players in a front three that can make runs, contribute to build up play, and FINISH - which last season all of our healthy strikers lacked in 2 of the three areas (though Lambert maybe could have been better). So it will be interesting to see who we can bring in on that front, though Ings + Lallana aren't bad wide options, IMO.

I think we're getting closer to being capable of playing Rodgers football but it will be a more aggressive and more direct version of his Swansea side. Milner-Hendo-Coutinho ... there are no passengers in that middle three. I'm not convinced about Kovacic links but if we brought him in, perhaps Coutinho would play the false 9 role in front of those three with Ings and Lallana out wide.. or another quality finisher if we can sign one - or if Ibe steps up, etc.

[Dean Manifest]

I really like Can, but I'm not sure he's cut to be a DM. We might run into the same issues Arsenal used to with Song, where even though they had a 'DM' he was always wanting to get forwards and attack and leave us vulnerable.

Bingo.

I know it seems reasonable on paper to simply bump the ball-playing RCB "up a slot" into the DM role, but Can is all about opportunitic marauding, not holding.

I see Can, Milner and Hendo sharing time in the two more attacking CM slots in a 433. And what I'd really like to see is something similar to what City did quite a bit under Mancini, when they'd push Yaya forward from the double-pivot into more of a battering ram #10 role. This would often coincide with Milner being inserted as a wide attacking midfielder as well. I'd enjoy seeing us begin matches with something like...

Coutinho-Striker-Lallana
----Hendo-----Milner----
----------Lucas----------

....and shift into something like this when the defense is worn down and the game is stretched....

---------Striker---------
Coutinho-Hendo-Milner
------Lucas---Can------

[Redrider]

The yardstick against which to measure a central midfield has to be :
           Alonso. Mashcerano, Gerrard
            Milner Can Hendo   is not quite there!
Coutinho has to be considered in a more forward role and actually can be an improvement on Sterling in a more advanced role.
We will never replace Suarez, he was a complete one off in many respects. Will we ever see an effective Sturridge again, I am not sure!
I am with Aldridge, in that we require to purchase something quite exceptional up front.
However, the midfield is still of huge concern what are we going to do with Allen and Llanna?
Rodgers is trying to make pea and ham soup with lamb and cabbage.

[Cusamano]

Kranevitter

Guessing our scouts have no idea who that is.

[exino]

Honesly, it depends how your overall system works and what you're defining as a 'DM'. For example, I would say that Busquets is a DM - he's not a destroyer per se in that his game is so, so much more than that and his ability in possession is extraordinary but he still plays a DM role. He still has a focus on breaking up play, he still has a focus on providing cover in possession and not losing his position, he'll drop into space when needed and allow other players freedom knowing that he can cover. For all intents and purposes, he is a DM. At the same time, there's clearly a lot of difference between him and Matic for example.

For me a DM is a midfielder who has a primary defensive focus. What I mean by that is that a midfielder whose contributions within the system are primarily or at least sizeably defensive can be described as a DM. Obviously it's not quite as simple as that and there are caveats to that but I think it's important to both distinguish between a role and a position. Unfortunately we're kind of stuck in that positions are often used as an indication of role and as such it's difficult to sum up where and what a player does, especially in a time when someone like Guardiola has made it difficult to define someone by their position.

For example, if we play Coutinho on the left, is he a LW? His role isn't that of a winger but he's playing in that position, that area of the field. So what do you call him? Gerrard last season primarily played deep because of his passing. Yet he was playing in that area of the pitch that has generally been thought of as a defensive area. Guardiola played there as well and yet Cruyff said he couldn't defend. Gattuso didn't play in the deepest position in midfield when he was at Milan; Pirlo did. Yet his primary contribution was hardly an attacking one. So do you call him a defensive midfielder or do you call Pirlo a defensive midfielder? I remember when Mourinho played Khedira as Real Madrid's highest midfielder in one match, yet the primary reason for doing so was for his ability in pressing - a defensive one. Was he play as a defensive midfielder even though he was the highest midfielder on the pitch?

This is one of the things that makes it difficult to define. A player could be playing further up the pitch than another player yet doing more of a defensive job than that deeper player. You also can't label all defensive midfielders as destroyers because that's not the only criteria for a player being defensive.

So for me, I think there is a certain amount of common sense involved when labelling a player a DM. If their primary skill and focus is a defensive one, be it breaking up play or covering space or their work rate defensively or their intelligence in holding a position then they might be labelled a DM. Do we need a player who has, among his primary focuses in our system, a defensive focus? Whose role is more of a defensive one than the others in midfield? Yes. Do we need that at the base of our midfield? Yes and I'd say because of Rodgers' open system, it's almost a necessity. Even when we played Gerrard as the pivot, we still had the likes of Henderson and Allen contributing a huge amount defensively and covering a lot of ground for him. Even then, that wasn't enough.

We don't need a destroyer per se and I think because of Rodgers' philosophy in terms of technical ability and intelligence in midfield, we will not and should not bring in a Momo Sissoko type player. I do however think we need a defensive midfielder (especially because of the passivity of our backline) who can and will control the space between the lines, who will help stop our back line defenders getting isolated 1v1 and who will cover space, as well as breaking up play.

Indeed, well said. I too have always seen DM as a role and not necessarily always a position or type of player. You chose some wonderful examples to illustrate that as well.

[Sangria]

Rodgers came here wanting to play (and having played at Swansea) a 433 with a 2-1 in the middle. I imagine that is what he is trying to recreate. A middle three of Milner-Henderson-Coutinho could easily flip to a 1-2 as well with Milner or Hendo playing a bit deeper. My guess and hope is that the plan is to play as a legitimate pressing side next season and try to make the possession game work again but with better pieces. Busquets seems more useful for his reading of the game and his passing than for his defensive abilities, for Barca, anyway. If Barca wanted a true DM they could play Masch there but instead he's a CB for them.

Unlike some, I don't think a Hendo-Milner-Coutinho midfield would be a bad thing at all - provided we are pressing high. That's a pretty fluent midfield - its not xavi and iniesta but they can all play the ball well and put in a shift defensively and working hard the entire 90 minutes. The only thing missing is a better range of passing but if we're holding the ball and pressing high maybe that won't be a problem.

Of course the other key besides pressing is having the right players in a front three that can make runs, contribute to build up play, and FINISH - which last season all of our healthy strikers lacked in 2 of the three areas (though Lambert maybe could have been better). So it will be interesting to see who we can bring in on that front, though Ings + Lallana aren't bad wide options, IMO.

I think we're getting closer to being capable of playing Rodgers football but it will be a more aggressive and more direct version of his Swansea side. Milner-Hendo-Coutinho ... there are no passengers in that middle three. I'm not convinced about Kovacic links but if we brought him in, perhaps Coutinho would play the false 9 role in front of those three with Ings and Lallana out wide.. or another quality finisher if we can sign one - or if Ibe steps up, etc.

Pressing works best when you have a guy behind them who knows where to be to sweep up, and a coach who dedicates a lot of time to organised pressing to channel opposition possession. Do we have that with a Rodgers midfield of Milner-Henderson-Coutinho? If neither condition is true, then you have a midfield who run around a lot.

[Eeyore]

Pressing works best when you have a guy behind them who knows where to be to sweep up, and a coach who dedicates a lot of time to organised pressing to channel opposition possession. Do we have that with a Rodgers midfield of Milner-Henderson-Coutinho? If neither condition is true, then you have a midfield who run around a lot.

It's not even that pressing only works if you are prepared to compress the play, have players who will sacrifice themselves for the team and above all have players who will capitalize on the opportunities counter-attacking presents.

To be frank we have none of those players.

As an opposing coach you don't think that we are going to pass you to death, you don't think we are going to press you to death and you know we can't park the bus so you take your pick on which way to beat us.

 

[BEAST]

It's not even that pressing only works if you are prepared to compress the play, have players who will sacrifice themselves for the team and above all have players who will capitalize on the opportunities counter-attacking presents.

To be frank we have none of those players.

As an opposing coach you don't think that we are going to pass you to death, you don't think we are going to press you to death and you know we can't park the bus so you take your pick on which way to beat us.

 

I disagree with this:  Sturridge and Coutinho

Not saying 2 is enough but to say we have none is not true.

[Sangria]

I disagree with this:  Sturridge and Coutinho

Not saying 2 is enough but to say we have none is not true.

We have good players but no consistent system which we stick to come hell or high water. Our playing beliefs are seen in what we don't do (hence we have a clear idea of which members of the squad aren't Rodgers players), but less on what we do do (hence our idea of what constitutes a Rodgers player changes even within a season). Are we a possession team? Are we a counter attacking team? Does our choice of players consistently fit a playing theme?

[keyo]

I disagree with this:  Sturridge and Coutinho

Not saying 2 is enough but to say we have none is not true.

I suppose the issue is getting the ball to them...a 'spring' when we are countering from deep. ..worked a treat with gerrard and suarez in the side as it gave us a range. ...coutinho benefitted, sterling benefitted and sturridge added to the threat

Now we cumbersome coming out from defence and coutinho does not get serviced early enough to break quickly...we have players who can play in different systems, but didn't apply any playing styles and systems consistently last season, so we have become confused and players have suffered