Topic: Racism at LFC

[berkshire_red]

Asa lifelong supporter, and as someone from an "ethnic" (WTF is that btw?) background, every time I have been to Anfield, I've always been surprised, pleasantly at how easy-going everyone is. Long as I wear the shirt, that's all everyone sees..but on the few occasions I've been to away matches, I feel fans of other teams always make it a point to single me out for abuse for being firstly a red, and secondly for the colour of my skin. Now don't get me wrong, I have been a red since I was seven (since I came to live here), and believe me, I may not be a scouser but the blood in me is doubly red, but it just pisses me off cos it has on accasion deterred me from going to away games cos I can't be bothered with the hassle. Every EPL team now has black players, and I well remeber being offended on two counts when "Digger" Barnes was treated horrendously when he first signed for us (eventually though I think we were one of the first "big" clubs to kill the issue, partly cos how inegral a part of our success he bacame), but am just wondering if anyone can give me some advice on dealing with this shit, and also where everyone is on this issue...

[KTS]

Racist remarks/abuse/chanting are shit and thankfully don't happen that much at Anfield.

If anything happens like that at an away ground, do this.

Try and identify the person, by clothes, by his seat number. Then leave your seat and report it to a steward and/or policeman out of sight of the crowd, this can be done in the passageway below or behind the stands. At this moment in time it is still an 'allegation'. However the 'allegation' must be taken seriously and if you have given the steward/policeman a description and/or his seat number or a rough location in the ground, the steward/police can then monitor the situation and if it happens again they can deal with it without getting you involved. If the steward/policeman witness it then there is no need for witnesses.

If you get fobbed off by the steward/policeman take their numbers and ask to speak to the Head Steward of the section, but hopefully that will not happen.

However, if the allegation is proved - are you willing to go to court over it?

This is a very sensitive and emotive subject of which I'm happy to say that Liverpool FC are extremely keen to wipe out and are vigorous in doing so.

[AaronX]

Being Indian okay - don't take this as offensive. I remember in the early 80's the Liverpool area was kind of a racist area, you had very few other ethnic minorities there. Liverpool, Newcastle, Sunderland were horrible areas back then, when it came to multi cultural acceptance. I remember being insulted bare times.

I always remember when John Barnes signed for Liverpool, he was the first black player, and there were all this craap in the papers about how would the Liverpool fans accept him. However once he put the shirt on the fans didn't care as long as he was wearing the red shirt. It's as if wearing the red shirt rids ya of colour, ethnicity - YOU ARE ONE. But alarmingly - or coincidence perhaps why it Took Liverpool until 1987 to sign a black footballer? And Everton didn't sign Amokachi their first black player till 1995. 

But does anyone remember a game against Everton when they everton fans started throwing bananas at Barnes?

But of course today the area Liverpool and England has at least on a 99% level eradicated it.  We have a cultural team, Spanish, French, Chekz, etc .....

[AaronX]

Funny though, cos ALOT of indians who live in the UK support Liverpool.

I can testify to that - i live in Birmingham, only been to Liverpool a few times and for some reason support them!

[Hattori Hanzo]

if i hear it (which in fairness i dont really) i go fuckin mad, and i mean fuckin mad!!!

im white but one of my best mates was black, i feel strongly about racism, if you ever get abuse (or anyone for that matter) go straight to the steward, or police - at least inform someone, we are kicking racism out and its not welcome at our ground

[Murf]

Funny though, cos ALOT of indians who live in the UK support Liverpool.

I can testify to that - i live in Birmingham, only been to Liverpool a few times and for some reason support them!

Think you right about that, living and working down the East side Of London, quite a few Asians I knew supported Liverpool, even got a lift up a couple of times, which was handy awkward midweek with work the next day.

[Chivasino]

I think the 1st generation British Born Asians all grew up at a time when Liverpool dominated European football. Most ended up suporting the club.

Most Indians I know support Liverpool. The Asian fan base Liverpool have is phenomenal.

I'm 27 now and have been going to Anfield for around 10 years, and have been to around 40 games. In all that time I've only ever experienced any kind of direct racism twice. Once when some lad barged into me and gave me a dirty stare, and most recently (Bham game this season), someone spat on my wife's back. That was the first time I took her to Anfield, we had only been maried 5 months. I never told her as she would never understand why I would want to go back. By the way, I/we were in Liverpool colours both times.

I guess it comes down to some Liverpool based supporters being sick of out of towners coming to Anfield and, in their opinion, wrecking the atmosphere. Sorry, but I don't buy into that. All the Indians I have ever been to Anfield with have always sung their hearts out and are always very vocal. Most have quite intelligent views as well.

I always go back though. Would never let a small minority of dickheads turn me away from my beloved club.

I wonder when we will see an Indian playing for Liverpool? May take a few years yet, but it will happen.

[Sajets]

Barnes was not the first black player at Anfield - Howard Gayle was.

[Hij]

A player can be any nationality as long as he whips the opposition. 

[Graeme]

In all that time I've only ever experienced any kind of direct racism twice. Once when some lad barged into me and gave me a dirty stare, and most recently (Bham game this season), someone spat on my wife's back.

I'm sorry but to say they were racially motivated is nothing more than an assumption.  Just because you are not white you are assuming that was the reason for both instances.

[Paul F]

Barnes was not the first black player at Anfield - Howard Gayle was.

Yes but Barnes was the first to have a major impact.  I think the rapid acceptance of JB showed that a lot of the racism was pretty superficial (albeit not to the victims).  When I read "A Season with Verona" I was appalled at the author not really criticising the racism amongst the supporters.  But then at the end, they signed a black player and he was immediately accepted - reminded me of Liverpool in 87.

I remember as a kid, in an almost exclusively white area, yelling "Paki" frequently at an (ironically) second-generation Indian lad.  At the time I just thought of it as the same as calling others "fat" or "queer" or "ginger" or whatever - and it didn't help that my parents were older and thus of a generation that grew up not knowing any non-whites.  I was ignorant - basically.  It makes me cringe now.  I think most racism is like that, although the effect it has on people means it needs stamping out as much as the sinister BNP-type stuff.

[Paul F]

I'm sorry but to say they were racially motivated is nothing more than an assumption.  Just because you are not white you are assuming that was the reason for both instances.

I think you are wrong there.  Why else would a fellow supporter treat you like that when you've done nothing to them.

[WOOLTONIAN]

Being Indian okay - don't take this as offensive. I remember in the early 80's the Liverpool area was kind of a racist area, you had very few other ethnic minorities there.

I always remember when John Barnes signed for Liverpool, he was the first black player,

But alarmingly - or coincidence perhaps why it Took Liverpool until 1987 to sign a black footballer? And Everton didn't sign Amokachi their first black player till 1995. 

But does anyone remember a game against Everton when they everton fans started throwing bananas at Barnes?

Point 1. Total bollocks, Liverpool has been a multicultural area since 1840's
China town has been there even longer.

Point 2. John Barnes was not our first coloured player.

point 3. both dates are wrong and Amokachi wasn't the first coloured player for Everton.

point 4. Everton weren't the only ones throwing bananas.
At a time when Love thy neighbour, Alf Garnet and Chalky White were airing what we would today consider racist humour on television. Throwing a banana was considered humourous not racist.
I'm glad times have moved on and these actions are considered unacceptable, but dont suggest that Liverpool as a City was any different or worse than any other town / city.

[NickoH]

Thankfully we have moved on since the early to mid-eighties......

I remember NF handing leaflets out at Kirkdale station and near the ground, with Liverpool colours on.

Abuse to visiting black players was also high at Anfield, with mainly monkey taunts, etc......

Whatever your colour of skin (except blue) your money spends just as good and your cheers/shouts are just as loud and appreciated.

[Sat1]

Point 1. Total bollocks, Liverpool has been a multicultural area since 1840's
China town has been there even longer.

Point 2. John Barnes was not our first coloured player.

point 3. both dates are wrong and Amokachi wasn't the first coloured player for Everton.

point 4. Everton weren't the only ones throwing bananas.
At a time when Love thy neighbour, Alf Garnet and Chalky White were airing what we would today consider racist humour on television. Throwing a banana was considered humourous not racist.
I'm glad times have moved on and these actions are considered unacceptable, but dont suggest that Liverpool as a City was any different or worse than any other town / city.

I agree. Also been told the first Indian imigrants came to Liverpool first, not 100% sure about this but I know many who had passed through Liverpool docks.

[Paul F]

I agree. Also been told the first Indian imigrants came to Liverpool first, not 100% sure about this but I know many who had passed through Liverpool docks.

I think this is missing the point.  Yes other places were racist.  Yes we've had an immigrant population for a long time.  But when I was growing up, a lot of immigrant populations were pretty much ghetto-ised, and you wouldn't see a non-white face at the match.  Black players would be routinely taunted.  I don't think you can downplay the past that easily.

[Sat1]

I think this is missing the point.  Yes other places were racist.  Yes we've had an immigrant population for a long time.  But when I was growing up, a lot of immigrant populations were pretty much ghetto-ised, and you wouldn't see a non-white face at the match.  Black players would be routinely taunted.  I don't think you can downplay the past that easily.

Pal I

[nidgemo]

Asa lifelong supporter, and as someone from an "ethnic" (WTF is that btw?) background, every time I have been to Anfield, I've always been surprised, pleasantly at how easy-going everyone is. Long as I wear the shirt, that's all everyone sees..

Really glad to hear that, because I read the title and thought it meant you had suffered from racism at anfield. In my experience, Anfield is fantastically un racist, and I've never seen any fan getting abour for race, religion or gender.

[Rhino]

I had a ST in the kop in the 80's and was regularly abused racially, but always just laughed it off.

When JB signed, bananas were thrown from the LFC end at Highbury as he took a corner for us.

The worse away grounds were Newcastle, Ipswich and Everton.  Ipswich use to have a song that ended 'kill that nigger'

JB, I believe, was accepted because he was a great player.  If he was a Diouf of today, he would have got it real bad.

I'm glad to say that times have changed and I get no problems at Anfield or any other ground, but Europe is a different matter

[nidgemo]

In all that time I've only ever experienced any kind of direct racism twice. Once when some lad barged into me and gave me a dirty stare

No offence, like, but is that racism? Or just some idiot who would have done exactly the same after bumping into a white person?

[Dick Emery]

I think an element of whether John Barnes was accepted or not was nothing to do with racism. Barnes waited for other offers from other clubs before signing for Liverpool. He dithered and stalled over joining. This was seen as a terrible insult to our club and everyone thought he was a plank. (Until he started playing then everyone thought he was a genius)

Racism did exist at Anfield prior to Barnes' arrival - but not on the scale of other clubs. The fact that it was small-scale doesn't excuse it , of course. There was never any great BNP activities at Anfield as far as I ever saw.

[Sat1]

I think this is missing the point.  Yes other places were racist.  Yes we've had an immigrant population for a long time.  But when I was growing up, a lot of immigrant populations were pretty much ghetto-ised, and you wouldn't see a non-white face at the match.  Black players would be routinely taunted.  I don't think you can downplay the past that easily.

Paul, im not missing the point. Im Indian myself and had to wait yrs before I could go and watch a game, my ma wouldnt no way let me go near a match. I also had to watch many shit footballers get the nod ahead of me, and even at a young age I knew why.

[WOOLTONIAN]

But when I was growing up, a lot of immigrant populations were pretty much ghetto-ised, and you wouldn't see a non-white face at the match. 

please dont shoot from the hip when discussing such an emotional issue.
Both points are total bollocks.
In 1962 I sat on a bar in the kop next to a black Father and son.
In the early seventies I went to the games with a schoolmate Bill Khanajou, you may guess from his name he wasn't Swedish.
Suggesting we Ghetto-ised immigrants is a disgrace.
Most immigrants settled by choice with their own kind.
There was massive Irish areas in Liverpool, firstly they lodged with people from their own country then they sorted houses out close to where they felt at home.

[Rhino]

In the 80's me and my mate always use to get approched by touts trying to sell us tickets.  They looked horrified when we said we were STH.

There were not many black faces around at that time at ANY ground, not just Anfield

[WOOLTONIAN]

There were not many black faces around at that time at ANY ground, not just Anfield

what were we supposed to do, knock on doors and say, "please come the game with me"

I dont remember seeing many coloured people in my local swimming baths, was that a racism issue ?

[tomred]

I'm sorry but to say they were racially motivated is nothing more than an assumption.  Just because you are not white you are assuming that was the reason for both instances.

What's your point here? The guy's wife gets spat at for no reason, but he should give the people committing this hate crime the benefit of the doubt because we can't prove the prejudice that caused them to commit the hate crime is racially based? Is that what you're trying to suggest?

Come on mate. What do you think is the most likely reason for spitting on an Indian lady for no discernible reason?

[Paul F]

please dont shoot from the hip when discussing such an emotional issue.
Both points are total bollocks.
In 1962 I sat on a bar in the kop next to a black Father and son.
In the early seventies I went to the games with a schoolmate Bill Khanajou, you may guess from his name he wasn't Swedish.
Suggesting we Ghetto-ised immigrants is a disgrace.
Most immigrants settled by choice with their own kind.
There was massive Irish areas in Liverpool, firstly they lodged with people from their own country then they sorted houses out close to where they felt at home.

Look - don't tell people not to shoot from the hip when your first response to people is repeatedly "bollocks".

OK - exaggeration that you wouldn't see a non-white face, but it was incredibly rare in the early-80s when I started going regularly.  And when I said "were ghetto-ised", I meant "were" in a passive rather than an active sense.  I wasn't suggesting "we" deliberately did it - so don't "shoot from the hip".

And do you have anything to say about the racist chanting at the ground?  As I've said before, it was superficial, and as an ignorant snotty-nosed kid, I did it myself.  But it happened, and I think your posts are suggesting the Liverpool of the past as some kind of multicultural utopia.

The early 60s may have been like that - but my childhood wasn't.  I always remember that Fritz Spiegl book "Lern Yerself Scouse" referring to a "Smoked Irishman" and noting he'd never heard a Scouser use the word "nigger".  In later editions he had to accept that this was no longer the case.

[KingKennyKhalsa]

I too for a long time was put off form going to games because of it.

Particularly when my mates uncle told us that he went (years ago), and had chants of 'who's the scouser, who's the scouser, who's the scouser in the black' ...he wasnt wearing black by the way.

although i can see the funny side of that, i can also see how its not so funny when your the butt of the joke for a large number of people.  I think people are seeing the red more than the brown these days too.

Its a bit like the St Geroges Cross, people say that its been hijacked by the politically correct, but thats only because it was hijacked by the racists in the first instance. Now mentality is changing, and i can see a day when st Georges day will be a national holiday..why not its the patron saint of the country we live in regardless of Religion etc. a day of festivals and partys can only be a good thing as long as thats the mentality of the people that celebrate it....any way going of LFC now.


we're all red and thats all that bothers me, and i'll be red when i'm sitting in Istanbul too!

[Forza]

I was in the Curva Nord for the Lazio - Juve game a few weeks ago and the racism there was the norm.  But the Lazio are kown for that. . .

Racism in the UK is by far the best controlled in Europe. . .

[Graeme]

What's your point here? The guy's wife gets spat at for no reason, but he should give the people committing this hate crime the benefit of the doubt because we can't prove the prejudice that caused them to commit the hate crime is racially based? Is that what you're trying to suggest?

Come on mate. What do you think is the most likely reason for spitting on an Indian lady for no discernible reason?

I've been spat at walking down the road before now, and have been barged into at games - anyone will tell you it isn't a rare occourence.  All I am saying he just because he isn't white that does not make the incident racially motivated.

[Paul F]

I've been spat at walking down the road before now, and have been barged into at games - anyone will tell you it isn't a rare occourence.  All I am saying he just because he isn't white that does not make the incident racially motivated.

I think the context pretty much proves the point.  The barge - you may have a point.  The spitting I'd say was almost certainly racial.

[Forza]

Totally agree there Graeme.

[tomred]

Yes, but what's your point in arguing that?  That the guy shouldn't assume the most likely reason? That it's somehow his responsibility not to jump to (obvious) conclusions after someone spits on his wife?

Did you know that circumstantial evidence is enough to convict on hate crimes?

[WOOLTONIAN]

And do you have anything to say about the racist chanting at the ground? 

Liverpool of the past as some kind of multicultural utopia.

Neither I nor any of the friends I go to the ground with, indulge in racist chanting.

The Liverpool I know (born 1957) has always been a multicultural society.
My Father was born in Toxteth 1933, he considers he has always lived in a multicultural Liverpool.
We have Jewish areas, Irish areas, catholic areas, chinese areas, I've never heard any of these use the term Ghetto-ised

My family were immigrants in 1848, I have no hang ups about being the decendant of immigrants.

[KingKennyKhalsa]

I've been spat at walking down the road before now, and have been barged into at games - anyone will tell you it isn't a rare occourence.  All I am saying he just because he isn't white that does not make the incident racially motivated.

I dont want to get into this too much, but if some one gets spat at for no particular reason, it is a) because there is something wrong with the guy b) something has triggered it.

If the person doesnt know you, the trigger is likely to be something about your appearance, colour & gender are the obvious two so common sense will ask you to question these to as motives first. and gender based crimes are reasonably rare.


Having said all that Graeme too has a point for example guys with ponytails are also seem to trigger something.
and as my mate classicaly answered me once when i asked him "why?"
he said "he had one of those smackable faces".   I stopped talking to him for a long time after that as he clearly had issues.

[WOOLTONIAN]

I've been barged, punched kicked in the head and spat at, at games, I dont consider any of it was racial.
To suggest spitting is a racial thing is miles off the mark.

Word of warning
Anyone ever spits at my wife, will get a mighty cummupance
white black yellow pink or poker dot.

It was a disgusting thing to suffer and I feel sorry for the girl mentioned above, but let me assure you most of the lads I know or go to games with would have fuckin flattened the knob who spat.
Colour would not have come into the equation

[WOOLTONIAN]

Confused how you explain the Diouf instances as he said "it was a common thing in Senegal"

do you consider his actions racist when he spat at a white catholic at Celtic park and a white player at Portsmouth ?

[leonmc0708]

Asa lifelong supporter, and as someone from an "ethnic" (WTF is that btw?) background, every time I have been to Anfield, I've always been surprised, pleasantly at how easy-going everyone is. Long as I wear the shirt, that's all everyone sees..but on the few occasions I've been to away matches, I feel fans of other teams always make it a point to single me out for abuse for being firstly a red, and secondly for the colour of my skin. Now don't get me wrong, I have been a red since I was seven (since I came to live here), and believe me, I may not be a scouser but the blood in me is doubly red, but it just pisses me off cos it has on accasion deterred me from going to away games cos I can't be bothered with the hassle. Every EPL team now has black players, and I well remeber being offended on two counts when "Digger" Barnes was treated horrendously when he first signed for us (eventually though I think we were one of the first "big" clubs to kill the issue, partly cos how inegral a part of our success he bacame), but am just wondering if anyone can give me some advice on dealing with this shit, and also where everyone is on this issue...

If you are at an away ground as a Liverpool supporter and you are anything out of the ordinary, you will no doubt be targeted. If your fat, then its you fat twat, if you have a big nose its you big nosed twat and if you are asian/black/white/chinese/skinny/short it will be the same. This is not racism, its just a way to try and take this mickey out of opposing fans.

When we go to Woodison, I am told repeatedly about my Welshness despite being scouser than most blue noses.

Part and Parcel.

[tomred]

UK hate crime laws would (and rightly so) get a conviction for that spitting incident, so whether you think it is well off the mark or not doesn't matter. There's no other way of prosecuting incidents that appear to be racially motivated but to make assumptions. If you take away the ability to make assumptions, you take away the ability to fight hate crimes. Dangerous ground.

[Rhino]

what were we supposed to do, knock on doors and say, "please come the game with me"

I dont remember seeing many coloured people in my local swimming baths, was that a racism issue ?

I didn't say it was because of racism, altho how many did go to a match, were abused and thought fuck this.